WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:01.240 Dear listener. 2 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:04.080 Before we start, a quick note to say that this 3 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:06.040 episode mentions suicide. 4 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:10.119 My mother calls me every few weeks, usually late in 5 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:11.920 the afternoon for me, which is super late at night 6 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.040 for her in Spain. Oh get done. 7 00:00:20.360 --> 00:00:20.560 Yeah. 8 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.400 She talks to me about the family, whatever's happening in 9 00:00:23.400 --> 00:00:27.920 her life. She's usually worried about something like money. Money 10 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:33.320 and stability have always been a big thing in my family. 11 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.479 Her latest worry is a war in Ukraine and how 12 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:39.600 that's wiping away her retirement savings. 13 00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:41.160 Yeah, this is taking. 14 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:47.000 I'm not sure if my mother was always like that. 15 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.360 She grew up in a well of family in Seville, Spain. 16 00:00:51.040 --> 00:00:53.239 But my father, on the other hand, he grew up 17 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:55.920 working class and spent most of his life trying to 18 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.360 better himself. I think it's safe to describing as conservative 19 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:03.160 in the way to see life and work, to work hard, 20 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:06.720 to save money. You don't take risks, you care about 21 00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:10.720 success and what other people say. 22 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:12.160 Your normalot. 23 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:16.360 My mother and I don't usually talk about personal stuff, 24 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:19.200 but some years ago I interviewed her for a video 25 00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:22.679 documentary I was working on. Initially, documentary was about the 26 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.920 Spanish two thousand and eight economic crisis. Then it got 27 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.560 all complicated. I'll come back to that. But that day 28 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:32.520 I asked her questions I had never asked her before, 29 00:01:33.240 --> 00:01:34.839 like what she failed when I moved to the US 30 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:36.800 over two decades ago. 31 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:39.080 Familiar. 32 00:01:42.800 --> 00:01:45.160 She says she never quite believed that I had left. 33 00:01:46.080 --> 00:01:47.880 That no one ever thinks that their son is not 34 00:01:47.960 --> 00:01:50.840 going to come back when they leave. That it was 35 00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:53.880 hard for her. She says she even feels like crying 36 00:01:54.040 --> 00:02:03.920 just talking about it decades later. No, the day I left, 37 00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:06.000 she got the time of the bus from Seville to 38 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.280 Madrid wrong. I was flying out of Madrid to JFK 39 00:02:09.480 --> 00:02:12.600 in New York City. My mother showed up at the 40 00:02:12.600 --> 00:02:15.320 bus station where my friends had gathered to say goodbye 41 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:18.919 with the container of a Spanish hamon, but my bus 42 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:26.280 had just left. It was a blow for her. I 43 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.120 had no idea she could remember that day. I barely 44 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:33.200 remember that day. But then again, I forget so many things. 45 00:02:33.480 --> 00:02:35.760 I seem to erase memories after a while so they 46 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.440 don't hurt. I was twenty five back then. I'm forty 47 00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:39.959 six now. 48 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:53.840 Our boys pratap today. 49 00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:56.160 My mother feels that the United States is as much 50 00:02:56.200 --> 00:03:00.200 my homeland as Spain. As Ville, and hearing these makes 51 00:03:00.200 --> 00:03:03.720 me feel like, maybe to a certain extent, she understands 52 00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:09.480 what I've been going through. There are two kinds of immigrants. Heck, 53 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.799 they're probably five hundred kinds of immigrants, but let's just 54 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.320 say for now that there are two kinds, the ones 55 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:17.640 who don't look back and the ones who spend their 56 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:21.720 lives looking back. I've done a bit of both. I've 57 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.760 ordered Flamenco CITs from Brooklyn. I have held onto my 58 00:03:24.760 --> 00:03:28.280 friendships in Spain for decades. I've had to learn how 59 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:31.440 to dance a Viannas. I've bought a house in Los Angeles. 60 00:03:31.760 --> 00:03:34.480 I've learned how to drive in New York. I've seen 61 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.800 Prince in Vegas, Dabis in New York, BUMBOI in La 62 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:43.200 i'f worked myself to the ground day after day. I've 63 00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:45.840 felt at home in Brooklyn. I've gone back home for 64 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:49.560 Christmas to Spain every single year, and through the years, 65 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:54.240 through the decades, I've asked myself time after time, where 66 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:57.200 should I be? But version of myself is more true, 67 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.480 more real? What is it that matters to me most? 68 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:04.360 What makes me happy? Should I stop looking back or 69 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:06.960 should I simply go back to where I'm from, wants 70 00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:07.720 and for all. 71 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:16.520 From Futuro Media and PRX. It's Latino USA. I'm Marie 72 00:04:16.640 --> 00:04:21.719 nor Josa Today an exploration of one person's migration story 73 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:41.600 and the endless search for happiness. Dear listener, you know 74 00:04:42.080 --> 00:04:46.640 on this show we feature many stories of migrants, often 75 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.000 migrants who are dealing with incredible hurdles and for whom 76 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.880 the process just to get to the United States is 77 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:59.760 incredibly arduous. But even in the best of circumstances, migration 78 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:04.320 can take a toll. Today we're welcoming back the former 79 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:09.880 senior producer of Latino USA, Miguel Massias, and he's going 80 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:12.680 to take it away for today's episode with a very 81 00:05:12.760 --> 00:05:16.640 special story, the story of a lifetime, or as he 82 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:21.560 calls it, limbo, la ca. 83 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.640 And malo. 84 00:05:24.520 --> 00:05:27.799 The story starts in twenty twelve. That year started taking 85 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.920 interviews with my friends in Spain. The two thousand and 86 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:33.600 eight economic crisis was four years in and not going 87 00:05:33.640 --> 00:05:37.200 away anytime soon. I saw many of my friends keep 88 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:40.080 up on their dreams of a more fulfilling life as 89 00:05:40.080 --> 00:05:43.800 I watched from the outside. So we talked. We talked 90 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:48.600 for hours and hours about the crisis, politics, society Spain. 91 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:55.400 Our generation vive again against Sevillia, Mederico amleric America. My 92 00:05:55.440 --> 00:05:58.839 generation was born around the time Franco, the Spanish dictator died. 93 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:01.480 We grew up up and their new democracy full of 94 00:06:01.520 --> 00:06:04.640 promise that things would be better for us, better than 95 00:06:04.640 --> 00:06:08.640 for our parents, not just politically but also economically. But 96 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.680 the crisis took away that promise. By then, being in 97 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.000 the US for more than a decade, I had a 98 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.039 stable job as a professor teaching ready production at Brooklyn 99 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.080 College in New York City, And at that moment, when 100 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.000 so many of my friends were basically drowning, I felt 101 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.200 lucky to live somewhere else, to have some instability. Yeah, 102 00:06:34.400 --> 00:06:38.679 that's my friend. Pablo, an architect. Studying architecture in Spain, 103 00:06:38.760 --> 00:06:40.480 seemed like a great idea for a while for my 104 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.279 generation when construction was booming, until it wasn't until the 105 00:06:45.320 --> 00:06:49.320 crisis devastated the sector. Works started to dry up progressively, 106 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:52.080 until there was no work for Pablo. He was unemployed 107 00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:59.840 for years. He went into a dark place, taking that 108 00:07:00.520 --> 00:07:02.960 at forty years old, he had nothing to show for 109 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:09.200 his life, you know, saying, wondering what could happened to him? 110 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:15.720 In twenty years and memo they do, he started doubting 111 00:07:15.760 --> 00:07:19.120 himself everything you expect to feel when you're unemployed for 112 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.600 a long time. He knew these feelings for coming, and 113 00:07:22.640 --> 00:07:24.000 he still suffered from them. 114 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:26.320 So I. 115 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:47.320 Who As I listened to my friends talking about a 116 00:07:47.400 --> 00:07:50.320 system that felt like it was falling apart, I told 117 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:52.960 myself why would there be a place for me in 118 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.360 this society? And they told me too, you know certain terms, Miguel, 119 00:07:57.720 --> 00:07:59.120 don't come back to Spain now. 120 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:00.000 It's horrible. 121 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.560 Well here, So for me at that moment, the crisis 122 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.080 took away a different kind of promise, my dream to 123 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.720 go back to Spain one day. 124 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.960 I'm going to fat me familiar. 125 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.760 I am, by all means, a privileged immigrant. I came 126 00:08:33.800 --> 00:08:36.200 to the US because I wanted to. I was able 127 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:39.120 to study, get a job. I even had support from 128 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.240 my family in my early years here. I guess we 129 00:08:42.280 --> 00:08:46.040 could say that I've been fairly successful too, So I 130 00:08:46.040 --> 00:08:48.880 could have gone back to Spain anytime. I can go 131 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:51.600 back now if I want to. But for some reason, 132 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.200 while I once feel free to leave, I never failed. 133 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.040 I had earned the right to go back, and I 134 00:08:58.040 --> 00:08:59.839 could have gone back to in those years if you 135 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.559 and for the crisis, but instead I used every opportunity 136 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.840 I had to spend time in Spain and these interviews. 137 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.600 They became a way to get to know my friends better, 138 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:11.440 get to know what they thought about me. 139 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:18.520 But just one thing, seriously, Miguel, can I really ask 140 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:19.360 you questions? 141 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:21.960 Yeah? I'm saying that if the conversation leads to you 142 00:09:22.040 --> 00:09:24.040 asking me questions, I will answer them. 143 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:27.720 Are you ready for my questions? 144 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.640 Marie Angeles is one of my best friends in Spain. 145 00:09:31.160 --> 00:09:32.640 She has a way to cut through the crab when 146 00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:35.920 she speaks. I interviewed her twice for my documentary about 147 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.840 the crisis, but by the second time I sat down 148 00:09:38.880 --> 00:09:42.800 with her in twenty sixteen after Terras overlooking the center 149 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.640 of Seville, the same place where we have had so 150 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:49.880 many parties over the years. By them, my conversations with 151 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:51.840 my friends had turned a lot more personal. 152 00:09:52.760 --> 00:09:59.280 Miradioto, I think that you are part of your group 153 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.960 of friends in Pain as much as if you lived here. 154 00:10:02.520 --> 00:10:02.800 Now. 155 00:10:03.640 --> 00:10:06.079 They're happy when you visit, but they don't miss you 156 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:15.040 when you're not here. To do you consider them your people? 157 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:21.920 I do. They are my people, but they miss a 158 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:23.960 great part of my life the same way that I 159 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:28.440 miss a great part of their lives. 160 00:10:26.280 --> 00:10:32.520 When you, I have one more question for you. 161 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:34.600 Do you ever think about coming back? 162 00:10:36.880 --> 00:10:37.160 Woman? 163 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:43.600 Do I think about it? I think about it all 164 00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:47.920 the time. Don't tell you where do you think I'll 165 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:48.840 be in ten years? 166 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:53.559 You'll be there. I think you just don't want to 167 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:54.040 come back. 168 00:10:57.800 --> 00:11:01.080 I did want to go back. I still do. And 169 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.360 hearing many of my friends say that I didn't kind 170 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:06.080 of broke my heart because it made me feel that 171 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:09.040 they were seeing something I couldn't see. That I had 172 00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:12.960 reached a point on our return. In my mind, I 173 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:15.920 just never found a moment to come back. I always 174 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.120 imagined there would be this time in my life when 175 00:11:18.160 --> 00:11:20.880 I would be successful enough to be able to make 176 00:11:20.920 --> 00:11:25.000 some kind of triumph, overturn, to finally rest, to even 177 00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:28.840 be happy, build the house, work on my own things, 178 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.280 don't have to worry about my career anymore. And that 179 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:37.400 moment has never come. So I'm not sure how ten 180 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.840 years have passed since twenty twelve and I still had 181 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.800 not been able to make a decision because I'm afraid, 182 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.120 afraid that twenty years of my life could evaporate without 183 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:51.079 a trace if I went back, afraid that my achievements 184 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.679 would not mean much in Spain, that I couldn't even 185 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.840 get a good job, Afraid that the past two decades 186 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:01.679 of my life, the effort, the fighting, sacrifice, the loneliness 187 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:06.679 good amount to nothing. It's an immigrant's worst nimer, going 188 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.240 back with nothing to show for. And while this magna 189 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.480 actually be true, those are my fears, and fears have 190 00:12:14.520 --> 00:12:17.520 a way to stink up on your decisions, to convince 191 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.040 you that the worst case scenario is real. 192 00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:34.000 Coming up on Latino USA, Limbo continues, stay with us, 193 00:12:34.160 --> 00:13:25.440 not us. Hey, we're back and we've been listening to Limbo. 194 00:13:25.640 --> 00:13:27.959 Miguel Massias is going to pick up the story from 195 00:13:28.040 --> 00:13:29.280 here once again. 196 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.800 The first time I ever visited the US, long before 197 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.480 I moved, was in nineteen ninety one, when I was 198 00:13:35.520 --> 00:13:38.560 fifteen years old. My father was obsessed with the need 199 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:41.320 to speak English to succeed in life, who was also 200 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.840 obsessed with succeeding in life, So my parents signed me 201 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.480 up to one of those summer programs where you spent 202 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.560 a couple of months with an American family. I spent 203 00:13:50.640 --> 00:13:52.600 a few summers over the years with PEG and make 204 00:13:52.800 --> 00:13:55.960 my host family in the US who made me feel 205 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.360 home in Delaware. I kept coming back. I guess I 206 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.240 liked it there. I don't really remember Alurdees, who was 207 00:14:03.280 --> 00:14:05.120 my girlfriend at the time. She does. 208 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:14.160 Americana. 209 00:14:14.280 --> 00:14:16.560 She remembers me connecting with the US when I was young. 210 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.680 She even still has handwritten letters that I sent her 211 00:14:19.760 --> 00:14:22.440 during those summers. I will tell her about everything that 212 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:23.320 I observed with. 213 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:31.760 Bright eyes to look. 214 00:14:34.520 --> 00:14:38.080 And I remember the night before I visited the US 215 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:40.920 for the first time. I have this image of walking 216 00:14:40.920 --> 00:14:43.080 into my room and seeing a battle of a scotch 217 00:14:43.160 --> 00:14:46.000 and a box of cannons on my table. It took 218 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.000 me a few seconds to understand that my parents have 219 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:51.200 found and where they were hitting in my room. I 220 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.840 was fifteen years old, and I was a difficult teenager, 221 00:14:54.520 --> 00:14:56.440 but I didn't keep me from getting straight ace in 222 00:14:56.520 --> 00:14:59.880 high school. My mother, who's a psychologist, took me into 223 00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:02.040 her home office to talk to me about the obvious 224 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.320 risks of drinking and having sex. At that age, all 225 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.440 I could think about was the five that the next morning, 226 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.560 I had a ticket to jump on a plane and 227 00:15:09.560 --> 00:15:12.840 travel to Delaware. That was my first summer in the US. 228 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.160 Many followed in the nineties, So when I decided that 229 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.120 I wanted to go leave somewhere else. The United States 230 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:22.160 seemed like the logical place for me to go. In 231 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.160 January two thousand and one, I packed the suitcase, got 232 00:15:25.160 --> 00:15:27.240 a job as a waiter in the West Village, and 233 00:15:27.280 --> 00:15:32.080 I started to count the years five, ten, fifteen, twenty, 234 00:15:32.760 --> 00:15:33.720 almost half of my life. 235 00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:34.320 At this point. 236 00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:38.160 My initial goal was done necessarily to stay in New 237 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.040 York permanently. I wanted to study ready production for a 238 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.520 year maybe two, enrolled in the master's program, I got 239 00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:47.120 a student visa, and I started working as a teaching 240 00:15:47.160 --> 00:15:50.120 assistant at Brooklyn College. I thought I was going to 241 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.240 go back to Spain with my fantasy title and score 242 00:15:52.280 --> 00:15:54.320 a great job. I had spent a bunch of time 243 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.520 in Spain after college, working in bars and clubs, playing 244 00:15:57.520 --> 00:16:00.760 guitar in a rock band, just being young, so when 245 00:16:00.760 --> 00:16:02.600 I moved to New York at twenty five years old, 246 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:13.160 I was ready to accomplish things. For a few years, 247 00:16:13.160 --> 00:16:15.000 I just put my head down to study and work 248 00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:17.560 at all times, except for when I went back to 249 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.040 Spain for the summer for Christmas. I remember having the 250 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.200 fit in during those years that I had started running, 251 00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:26.480 running at all times, and that I was never going 252 00:16:26.520 --> 00:16:27.000 to stop. 253 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:34.640 You were so busy during that time, even before you 254 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:37.880 began in school. I remember you were always very busy. 255 00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:41.160 You were working a lot of hours. 256 00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.440 And it was a professor of mine in grad school. 257 00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:46.960 She met me just a few weeks after I arrived 258 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.680 in New York in two thousand and one. She's been 259 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.560 a patient mentor, even though I've disappointed her a few 260 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.040 times throughout the years with my decisions. 261 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:57.720 Do you remember how you felt then. 262 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:01.000 I think when I was just I was very excited 263 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:04.800 about my potential. You know, at the time, I thought 264 00:17:04.840 --> 00:17:08.600 that I may have a lot of talent, and I 265 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.040 was very excited about what I could accomplish, and I 266 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:16.080 was convinced that I was going to achieve great things. Basically, 267 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.439 I worked with it in a on my master's thesis project. 268 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:24.640 It was a long audio experimental documentary about romantic love 269 00:17:24.840 --> 00:17:28.679 called Chasing Love. It was really important to me. I 270 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:30.719 thought I was gonna win all the awards or something. 271 00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:34.960 I've been in love and it was a physical feeling. 272 00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:36.280 It wasn't like. 273 00:17:36.280 --> 00:17:39.320 The idea of oh no, we'll be together, that would 274 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:39.800 be great. 275 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.680 It was a feeling in my stomach. 276 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.480 People just take love at face value, you know, like, oh, 277 00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:48.840 they're married, so they're in love. 278 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:53.120 They love each other. But you're like, what, there's definitely 279 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:54.639 things going on in our body. 280 00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:57.639 To touch other people, you know. 281 00:17:58.040 --> 00:18:01.600 That's that's definitely true. 282 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.520 I think in the present that you are a very, 283 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:11.760 very extremely talented person, but maybe I always felt that 284 00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:17.399 you creativity was like very sleepery. I felt that you 285 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.520 were sabotaging yourself the whole time. Your whole life in 286 00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:25.280 Brooklyn College was very general with other people. But I 287 00:18:25.320 --> 00:18:29.560 think to a point of being an excuse not to 288 00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:33.159 sit down and confront the creative project because at the 289 00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:36.840 end of the day, we always afraid of rejection. 290 00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:41.480 She's right, I am afraid of rejection. That's why the 291 00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:44.600 creative process is something that has haunted me for years. 292 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:49.199 Creativity is a slippery indeed, and I needed to take risks, 293 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.879 but I've always been risk averse. So instead I turned 294 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.439 to my professional development as the thing to be proud of. 295 00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.360 I made it the reason why I came to this country, 296 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:05.840 and success, progress, accomplishment became crucial for me, and so 297 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:22.400 I worked. I worked a lot of times in two 298 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.760 thousand and four, after graduating from Brooklyn College. I was 299 00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:28.320 offered a job in public radio, and I couldn't turn 300 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:30.960 it down. And that's what I told myself, that I 301 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.480 couldn't turn it down. There could surely be another chances 302 00:19:34.520 --> 00:19:37.120 to go back to Spain. Funny how I keep telling 303 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.240 myself the same thing. Decades later, then no longer after 304 00:19:41.280 --> 00:19:43.800 I started my job as a ready producer, I met Julia. 305 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:46.920 Her name is not actually Julia, but we'll call her Dad. 306 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.639 We fell in love, started spending almost every single night together, 307 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.000 then moved into a beautiful apartment in Brooklyn. We got married. 308 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.840 Julia brought along perhaps the happiest moments of my life 309 00:20:03.840 --> 00:20:07.560 in the US. I felt I was growing roots. I 310 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:11.040 loved the life that we had. We eloped, went to 311 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.399 montog for our honeymoon. We were a team and we 312 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.320 could do anything we wanted. So we picked up and 313 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.840 moved to La Julia taught me so many of the 314 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:24.440 things I know about this country. As an immigrant, I've 315 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.560 always been worried about assimilating, but with Julia, I actually 316 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.040 understood so many things. Politics, culture. She made me a 317 00:20:33.080 --> 00:20:36.880 football fan. We go to the bars on Sundays, eat wings, 318 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.560 drink meer and cheer for the Steelers. Went to Dodger 319 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.080 Steadium quite a few times to see many ramdas are 320 00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:47.720 bad rocks and closing games. I once cooked the rabbit 321 00:20:47.800 --> 00:20:50.000 paija for a bunch of friends in the messing yard 322 00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:52.760 that we had I felt like I was growing up. 323 00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:55.359 That was the time when I was the farthest away 324 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.600 from Seville, both literally and spirit. But I will still 325 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:14.560 go back for Christmas every year. There's a picture Julia 326 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.040 wants to come me in Spain. I'm laughing, my head 327 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.200 tilted back while hanging out with friends on a Sunday 328 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:25.720 Friday afternoon. One day. While looking at that picture, Ulett 329 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.879 says something I will never forget. When you're in Spain, 330 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.120 you're like a different person. Even the way you laugh 331 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.639 is different. I couldn't understand what she meant by that. 332 00:21:36.800 --> 00:21:40.120 Then over the years I spoke to other immigrants about it. 333 00:21:40.280 --> 00:21:43.440 They all had heard the same thing. I've never been 334 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.040 able to understand the differences between my two identities. Like 335 00:21:47.080 --> 00:21:49.560 I couldn't give you an example. It's more like what 336 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.960 I hear from people who know me about the way 337 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.119 I laugh, the way I interact with other people, the 338 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:59.600 faces I make. But there's also something else something that 339 00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:01.359 has shaped my identity deeply. 340 00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:02.720 M hmm. 341 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.040 So how do you think about the meaning of life? 342 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:15.280 Then? 343 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:17.760 I mean, oh, you know you're not gonna ask me 344 00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:18.480 that question. 345 00:22:18.760 --> 00:22:23.199 Yes, yes, I mean that's ridiculous. That can be the 346 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:24.119 first question. 347 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:27.120 Are you crazy? 348 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.719 That's my good friend Sally. She emigrated from Brazil decade 349 00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:34.280 to go. She's one of my closest friends in Brooklyn, 350 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.760 and she has seen me navigate all the changes in 351 00:22:36.800 --> 00:22:37.200 my life. 352 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:43.720 Ultimately, I think it's about daily survival, but it's also 353 00:22:43.800 --> 00:22:48.240 about the love and the connection you make with people. Yeah, 354 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:54.080 in general, I am a half glassful person, I guess. 355 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.280 But it's funny because I see you that way as well. 356 00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:06.320 I know you've struggled with your depression, but it never 357 00:23:06.600 --> 00:23:11.040 transpired in our relationship. I know that happens in your 358 00:23:11.080 --> 00:23:14.520 life because you tell me, but it's not something I experience, 359 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.639 and I actually my interactions with you, I see you 360 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:19.719 as a happy person. 361 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.040 I am optimistic, you know, as a way to survive, 362 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.760 you know. Okay, So I just need to think positively 363 00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:28.000 about where things are going to go, because otherwise I 364 00:23:28.040 --> 00:23:31.199 will be depressed all the freaking time, basically, you know. 365 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.280 But It's also interesting that I feel like, not only 366 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.520 our interactions, I find you are a happy person. You 367 00:23:39.560 --> 00:23:43.719 are always enjoyable to be around. You're a positive person. 368 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:46.040 But I feel like you also have it so together, 369 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.199 Like you are one of the most punctual people I know, 370 00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:50.760 and I'm pretty punctual. 371 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.720 I have suffered from chronic depression since I was a teenager. 372 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.119 I've done all the things that you can do, therapy, medication. 373 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:02.720 I am stupidly proud of never missing a day at work, 374 00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:06.080 never saying no to a plan with friends, but all 375 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:10.240 the while I was suffering. The other thing that I 376 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:14.879 thought sometimes is that being an immigrant always kind of 377 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.720 it's complicated mentally, right to some extent, you know, I mean, 378 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.399 you know I suffer from depression, you know, a decade 379 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.080 before I moved to the US. But it's true that 380 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.280 it's you know, you had to develop a little bit 381 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:30.159 of a different personality in a different language, right. There was 382 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.720 a time when I was young, when I was openly sad. 383 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:35.560 My friends in college knew me as someone who was 384 00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:40.320 always thinking, questioning, but also sad. I was convinced I 385 00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:42.960 wouldn't make it to an old age. I don't know 386 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.720 how far I thought I would get, but suicide was 387 00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:52.560 a real option in my mind. Then one day, I'm 388 00:24:52.560 --> 00:24:55.560 not sure why, I decided I did not want people 389 00:24:55.560 --> 00:24:58.679 to see me that way again, so I stopped showing 390 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.880 my saddness. When I moved to the US, I had 391 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.000 a change to develop a different reputation, not just in 392 00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:07.800 the way people saw me, but also in the way 393 00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:11.359 I thought about myself. I only told my closest friends 394 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.080 about my depression, and when I did, I felt I 395 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.840 was putting my life in their hands. I saw it 396 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.959 as a weakness, a liability. I was convinced that if 397 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:23.639 I told people, they would never look at me in 398 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:27.199 the same way. And even with people I told, I 399 00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:31.840 never really showed in my suffering. But my wife Julia 400 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.200 did see a lot of that suffering, and she suffered 401 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:37.960