WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.720 --> 00:00:06.720 This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. As a parent 2 00:00:06.800 --> 00:00:11.080 of a teenager, it's easy to be constantly terrified by 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:15.480 phones and social media. I think we sometimes have a 4 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:20.759 sense that social media is like a black hole vortex, 5 00:00:21.360 --> 00:00:24.400 and if our child gets on it even for a second, 6 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.080 they'll be sucked in, never to be heard from again. 7 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.440 But sometimes when our kids do get access to social 8 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:42.800 media or YouTube or text chats, they can actually surprise us. 9 00:00:43.400 --> 00:00:46.360 Sometimes they seem to make better choices even than we do. 10 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.760 I know my own kids spend an awful lot of 11 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:52.920 time telling me not to phone zombie, while they explain 12 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.520 that it's important to set boundaries with your telephone. I'm 13 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.240 sure that that is important, and one day I'll presumably 14 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:03.240 learn it. In our last episode, we talked with the 15 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.399 New York Times journalist Jess Gross, who conducted surveys in students' 16 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:09.920 technology use in schools to fill in the gaps about 17 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.839 what we don't know, and those results they really lined 18 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:17.800 up with the black hole vortex fears. I will tell you, 19 00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:21.240 reading through all of these responses, I felt physically ill. 20 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:26.000 She described parents feeling helpless. She described dropping test scores, 21 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.120 diminished attention spans, and Her reporting aligns with what we've 22 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.679 heard from the Surgeon General when it comes to social 23 00:01:32.720 --> 00:01:35.440 media and our kids. To ask ourselves, is this safe? 24 00:01:35.440 --> 00:01:38.160 From Jonathan Height, once kids get a smartphone, you're totally 25 00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:39.759 cut off. They used to spend a lot of time 26 00:01:39.800 --> 00:01:42.080 with other kids, and that does begin to go down 27 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:44.559 in the two thousands. And that's why I say twenty 28 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.200 ten to twenty fifteen is the great rewiring of childhood. 29 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.600 And it validates a lot of what we're afraid of 30 00:01:50.800 --> 00:02:00.320 about technology. So how can we push back? That's what 31 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.280 my guest today is here to talk about. Doctor Michael 32 00:02:03.320 --> 00:02:07.080 Rich is a pediatrician and he's a self professed mediatrician. 33 00:02:07.600 --> 00:02:10.560 The director and founder of the Digital Wellness Labs at 34 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:14.959 Boston Children's Hospital. He's also been leading a team conducting 35 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.880 surveys and gathering data. But his goal isn't to uncover 36 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.720 why technology is so dangerous, but how we can learn 37 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:25.840 to productively coexist with it and even use it to 38 00:02:25.880 --> 00:02:29.120 our benefit. His work aims to take the pulse of 39 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:32.240 our current moment, but not necessarily wish for the past, 40 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:35.840 and he has some thoughts about how scared parents really 41 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:39.200 should be. We talk about how to be sane and 42 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.200 realistic about technology with the understanding that it's not going anywhere. 43 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.240 And we talk about how to teach kids early on 44 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.040 to be good digital citizens, and how parents need to 45 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.160 rethink how we use technology in front of our kids. Yes, 46 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.600 I should put my phone down, thank you, doctor. And 47 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.560 we talk about strategies for engaging with your kids as 48 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:05.200 they engage with social media. I will say this is 49 00:03:05.200 --> 00:03:08.799 one conversation that I used almost immediately later in the conversation, 50 00:03:08.880 --> 00:03:12.160 we talk about engaging with your kid's own YouTube, and 51 00:03:12.720 --> 00:03:15.760 I did that and it was weird, but also we 52 00:03:15.880 --> 00:03:19.000 learned that my son and I both really really love 53 00:03:19.440 --> 00:03:22.200 that TikTok where the person talks about looking for a 54 00:03:22.200 --> 00:03:25.000 guy in finance, and it was a great moment of connection. 55 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.880 I'm looking for a man in fineance. Just fun six five, 56 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.760 blue eyes, looking for a man in finance. You haven't 57 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:33.720 heard this. It's like the song of the summer Man 58 00:03:33.760 --> 00:03:39.800 in Fine six five anyway, Okay, after the break, doctor 59 00:03:39.840 --> 00:04:01.160 Michael Rich, Doctor Michael, thank you so much for joining 60 00:04:01.160 --> 00:04:01.960 me at parent Data. 61 00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:03.800 Thanks for having me. 62 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:08.080 I'd love to start by having you just introduce yourself 63 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:09.360 and tell us what you do. 64 00:04:10.600 --> 00:04:13.560 Okay, my name is Michael Rich. I'm also known as 65 00:04:13.640 --> 00:04:20.200 the Mediatrician. I am, in order of importance, parent, a pediatrician, 66 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.640 child health researcher, and I have a specialty in the 67 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.279 way that the screens kids use and how they use 68 00:04:27.320 --> 00:04:31.800 them can affect in positive and negative ways their physical, mental, 69 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:32.599 and social health. 70 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:38.240 I want to start this conversation with data. So you 71 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:44.880 conduct something called the Digital Wellness Pulse Survey, and it 72 00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:49.280 is among our best data. I think about how kids 73 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:54.320 are using media and technology, and I love you to 74 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:56.880 tell us a little bit about what those surveys are, 75 00:04:57.440 --> 00:05:01.440 how you operationalize them, what kinds things you're trying to learn. 76 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:07.320 Absolutely well, a pulse survey is akin to your doctor 77 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.960 taking your pulse right at this moment, So they are 78 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:15.920 a slice in time. And what we are trying to 79 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:22.360 do is actually speed up the pace of good, rigorous 80 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:26.200 health research and turn it around to the public in 81 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.080 a timely enough way that they can actually use it. 82 00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:35.320 And so we conduct three to four Pulse surveys every year, 83 00:05:36.520 --> 00:05:40.800 usually focused on a specific area, such as we had 84 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:44.000 recent ones about video gaming and their effects. We had 85 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:49.320 one about social media spaces. What types of spaces are 86 00:05:49.440 --> 00:05:53.160 conducive to positive, authentic work with social media and which 87 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.919 ones can get people into trouble. And basically the idea 88 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:06.160 behind this is how can we educate, enlighten and empower parents, children, educators, 89 00:06:06.200 --> 00:06:11.400 basically anybody who works with young people to parent and 90 00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:17.279 teach well in the digital ecosystem. We are not in 91 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.800 the habit of saying turn it all off, because that's 92 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.400 not going to happen, and we are realists and pragmatists. 93 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:29.200 But we are also realizing that there are many positives 94 00:06:29.520 --> 00:06:34.719 that have come from what is called social media, although 95 00:06:34.760 --> 00:06:38.200 no one has the same definition for social media. And 96 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:43.599 as you might imagine, with the litigation and the legislation 97 00:06:43.760 --> 00:06:46.800 around social media, a lot of the companies are running 98 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.479 for the exits and say they're messaging companies, they're broadcast companies. 99 00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:58.000 And we have a long way to go before legislation 100 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.760 or litigation is going to make things better. We should 101 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.080 keep working at it. But the reality is for me 102 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:06.960 is that I have to give kids and parents the 103 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:11.520 information they need right now to be healthy right now. 104 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:14.280 So when you do these post surveys, how do you 105 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.840 find kids to do them? What's the what's the population 106 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:19.000 you're trying to survey. 107 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:25.800 Well, the population we're trying to survey is basically kids 108 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:30.560 from eight to twenty five or twenty six. I know 109 00:07:30.640 --> 00:07:33.880 I use that term loosely, but that is kind of 110 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:39.080 the arc of development that is most vulnerable to issues 111 00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:44.280 again positive and negative. It's also the age group that 112 00:07:44.520 --> 00:07:50.240 is early adopters, and they really own the internet, if 113 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.200 you will, or own the social media space. And what 114 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:58.720 we need to do is give them the vision and 115 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:02.680 the power really to take care of themselves and each other. 116 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:11.760 So, of the things you have learned about kids social 117 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:18.160 media use, is there a headline finding or two headline findings? 118 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.840 You would say this is the thing I most want 119 00:08:20.880 --> 00:08:24.760 people to hear from what we've seen in the evidence. 120 00:08:27.320 --> 00:08:30.600 Yes, I think the first one is the kids are 121 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.720 all right. The kids are all right, They're doing okay, 122 00:08:34.760 --> 00:08:38.599 And in many ways we need to step back a 123 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:43.720 little bit from our paternal and maternalistic instincts to protect 124 00:08:43.760 --> 00:08:47.720 the poor innocence. The poor innocence are way better, way 125 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:50.880 more fascile in this environment than we are, and so 126 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.880 I feel that we need to follow their lead while 127 00:08:56.400 --> 00:09:03.000 giving them guard rails from our our experience, our theoretically 128 00:09:03.040 --> 00:09:07.679 fully mature executive functions and help them stay out of trouble. 129 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.160 And so one of the key things that I say 130 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.560 to parents is to observe what I call the three 131 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.800 plus two ms. Okay, the first M is model the 132 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:23.120 behavior with your screen us that you want to see 133 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.120 in your kids, because they listen to about one percent 134 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:28.400 of what we say and one hundred percent of what 135 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:32.400 we do. The second is to mentor them. With each 136 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:37.720 new device, application platform they go on, sit next to them, 137 00:09:37.880 --> 00:09:39.880 just as we will sit next to them in the 138 00:09:39.880 --> 00:09:43.840 front seat of our automobile and help them learn to drive. 139 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.079 The reason I use the term mentor instead of teacher 140 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:51.839 is that mentors learn as much from the mentees as 141 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:54.680 the mentees learn from the mentors. And a lot of 142 00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:58.959 parents hesitate to go into the digital space because they 143 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.040 feel their kids are better better at it than they are. 144 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:06.640 The kids still need us, They still need us to 145 00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:11.800 guide them to the kind of healthy, smart, empathetic good 146 00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:15.360 citizens that we want to see them become. We have 147 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:19.760 to recognize that they live in a seamless, single digital 148 00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:24.520 physical environment that they move back and forth between. And 149 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.240 the concept of screen time limits is obsolete. It never 150 00:10:28.280 --> 00:10:31.600 worked in the era of television anyway, but it's obsolete. 151 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.160 What we need to do is be using these screens 152 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.600 in conscious, purposeful ways, which includes turning them off when 153 00:10:39.640 --> 00:10:43.200 we're done with them. The third m and the one 154 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.840 that kids and parents push back against the most is monitor. 155 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.520 Parents say I don't have the time to monitor everything 156 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.360 she or he does online. The kids say, I want 157 00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:00.680 my privacy. This is not about privacy invasion or anything nature. 158 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.280 What it's about is being present in your child's digital life. 159 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.600 And what I suggest is that they do know their 160 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:13.080 kids use their names and passwords, but they respect their 161 00:11:13.160 --> 00:11:17.440 kids privacy as much as they can. The fact that 162 00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:22.240 parents can monitor the kids changes the kid's behavior much 163 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.280 the way random drug testing in the workplace changes workers' behavior. 164 00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:31.439 So I think that it's up to parents to understand 165 00:11:31.520 --> 00:11:35.199 that the kids need their privacy, but the kids actually 166 00:11:35.400 --> 00:11:38.559 both need and believe it or not want their parent 167 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.559 to be there so that if they come across something 168 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:45.440 that freaks them out, something that scares them, something they 169 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:50.360 don't understand. Their parent is not a police officer who 170 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.520 you hide it from. Their parent is a supporter of 171 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:58.440 their success, who you can help, Who can help them? Now, 172 00:11:58.520 --> 00:12:02.160 if we can observe the three. Yeah, they're two goodies. 173 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:05.520 Two m's that are goodies. The first one, of course, 174 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:10.720 is mastery of this environment, really being able to know 175 00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:13.640 how these tools work, what they work well for, what 176 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.240 the pitfalls are, when where and how to use them, 177 00:12:16.920 --> 00:12:20.400 and when where and how not to use them, including 178 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.439 using them for what they do well and turning them 179 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:28.359 off at the end, because that's when we make memories. 180 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.520 And that's the really great m We make memories in 181 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.280 our real life interactions with people. We don't remember, you know, 182 00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:42.480 interactions online, but we do remember camping with our family, 183 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.840 or you know, kicking a soccer ball around the backyard, 184 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.840 or you know, just making a mess in the kitchen 185 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.640 while trying to cook something. These are the things that 186 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.480 behind us together. These are the things that gives us, 187 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.280 give us meaningful sustaining relationships. 188 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:03.240 I love all of that, And now I want to 189 00:13:03.280 --> 00:13:07.440 ask you some more skeptical questions about how one would 190 00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:11.199 implement these things. So, okay, the first question is about limits. 191 00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:13.640 So you say at the beginning, you screen time limits 192 00:13:13.800 --> 00:13:18.640 are are obsolete. But effectively, I think that you're you're 193 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:22.520 arguing for a kind of a kind of limiting in 194 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.679 the sense of when you say turn it off when 195 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.839 you're done. My kid would never be done with YouTube, 196 00:13:28.920 --> 00:13:31.400 and YouTube would never be done. YouTube has always got 197 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.560 more shorts to like serve you. So when we think 198 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:40.000 about limits, you must mean something about limits. Although I 199 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.880 take it that it's not like twenty minutes and then 200 00:13:42.920 --> 00:13:45.920 you're and then you're done always right. 201 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.080 Well, I think that screen time per se is unmeasurable 202 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.160 now because of the way we use it, dipping in 203 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:56.120 and out of it all day long. So instead of 204 00:13:56.160 --> 00:14:02.559 screen time limits, non screen minimum. In other words, have 205 00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:07.160 a conscious period of time or periods of time in 206 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.040 which there are no screens present. And that's quite intentional. 207 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.600 And you know, there's some ones that are really important, 208 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.680 such as no screens at the dinner table, a sit 209 00:14:18.760 --> 00:14:21.680 down family meal every day is the single most protective 210 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.240 thing you can do, not just for their nutrition but 211 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.680 for their mental health. Obviously, no screens in the bedrooms 212 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.880 at night. It's good to not use screens in the 213 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:36.120 last hour before sleep time. And I call it sleep time, 214 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.960 not bedtime because so many people have screens in the 215 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.440 bed with them. So it's about being planful and purposeful 216 00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:48.040 about your health. And it's also about, you know, putting 217 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:51.400 screens away when they're not needed to do homework and 218 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:55.360 do your homework. One of the myths that we all 219 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.280 persist in is that we can multitask with media. The 220 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.120 reality is is the human brain works on one channel 221 00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:05.280 at a time. When we think we are multitasking, we're 222 00:15:05.280 --> 00:15:08.880 actually rapidly switched tasking. And that means we don't give 223 00:15:08.920 --> 00:15:12.440 our full attention. We don't think deeply about what we're 224 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.400 doing at any one point in time. We're skipping to 225 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:16.080 the next thing. 226 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:21.360 Yeah. The second piece that I think is hard, is 227 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.960 very hard for people, is the is the monitoring. And 228 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.240 I actually it's it's interesting. So the part where I 229 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.400 have access to my kids passwords or emails and can 230 00:15:32.520 --> 00:15:35.760 check on them. I think many parents are comfortable or 231 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.280 understand that, even if it causes conflict. The thing that's 232 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.640 tricky is with so much of the screen time that 233 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:47.880 our kids are consuming, it comes in a form that 234 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.200 I can't predict what it is. You know, it used 235 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.120 to be you sit down in front of the Little Mermaid. 236 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.880 If you watch the whole Little Mermaid, you know what's 237 00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.360 going to happen. You know, you know when it's going 238 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.800 to be scary. You know, when it's not going to 239 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:00.440 be scary, they come and tell you, you know, Ursula, Yes, 240 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.800 I understand, she's not real. The eels can't get you. 241 00:16:02.800 --> 00:16:06.480 You know, you kind of know what's coming. But even 242 00:16:06.560 --> 00:16:10.960 for younger kids, when they're consuming media through YouTube or 243 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.680 when they're older through through you know, Instagram, they're going 244 00:16:13.760 --> 00:16:19.200 to see things that you can't predict. And it's not 245 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.040 reasonable to imagine that we're sitting next to them watching 246 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.320 YouTube for one thing, you would go insane. You can't 247 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.640 even believe how terrible some of this content is. But 248 00:16:27.760 --> 00:16:29.920 also it's not reasonable. So the question is what does 249 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.400 it mean to monitor when I'm I'm not able to 250 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.480 watch the whole time and know what it is on there? 251 00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:40.080 Yeah, I mean in many ways, this goes back to 252 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.680 the second am of mentor, which is how do you 253 00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:47.240 set your kids up for success? First of all, when 254 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.440 they ask for a device, whether it's a smartphone or whatever, 255 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.600 sit down with them and ask them why they want it, 256 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:58.720 And if it's because everyone else has one, that's not 257 00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:02.320 a great answer. You know, you want to have them 258 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.240 tell you the ways in which they're going to use 259 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:09.239 this powerful tool. We don't toss the car keys at 260 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.439 are screaming four year old to calm them down and 261 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:14.160 say have had it, but we do hand them a tablet. 262 00:17:15.800 --> 00:17:19.680 So the first thing is to have an open conversation 263 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:25.600 as you introduce these devices or platforms and be explicit 264 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.240 about it. Say, look, you're going to come across hate sites, 265 00:17:29.600 --> 00:17:32.400 You're going to come across pornography, You're going to come 266 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.520 across things. These are out there. There's no way we 267 00:17:35.560 --> 00:17:40.680 can protect them from it any better than teaching them 268 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.840 to protect themselves. Right, instead of giving them a fish, 269 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:49.919 let's teach them to fish and be explicit about what 270 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.879 to do with them, when to do it, where to 271 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.000 do it, and how they go about it, and explicitly 272 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.960 when they are not to do it and what they're 273 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.080 where they're not to go, et cetera, et cetera. And 274 00:18:04.040 --> 00:18:07.000 a lot of parents say to me, when can I 275 00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:09.640 give my kid a smartphone? And I say, when you're 276 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:13.280 ready to talk to them about pornography? And that holds 277 00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:16.040 them up short a little bit. But we have to 278 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:20.080 recognize the fact that it's out there. It's a click 279 00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:24.359 away and if you know they don't stumble across it. 280 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.080 Certainly a friend of theirs will introduce them. 281 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.400 Yeah. I think the other piece of this that maybe 282 00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:35.840 parents we'll find would find useful to hear and think about, 283 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:37.640 is we think about this as I'm going to give 284 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.439 my kid a smartphone and then it's it's done. But 285 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.960 I like the car analogy because I feel like, you know, 286 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.560 when I let my kid drive first, we're going to 287 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.120 edge into it. You know, you drive to your friend's house, 288 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.439 you drive to school. We're not immediately driving, you know, 289 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.280 from Providence, New York City, like the day after you 290 00:18:55.320 --> 00:19:01.400 get your driver's license at night, at night exactly. Similarly, 291 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:05.760 there's a there's an argument, I think for thinking of 292 00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:08.879 the phone as something that one earns points in or 293 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.080 kind of eases into, and which could be pulled back. 294 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.560 You know that we could say, after three months, let's 295 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.480 let's see how it's going, and we're open to pulling 296 00:19:21.520 --> 00:19:23.440 back some of the privileges or some of the time 297 00:19:23.560 --> 00:19:26.400 or some of what you Whether you have this if 298 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.240 it is not serving you, or if we think it's 299 00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:31.479 interfering with some of these other more core things like 300 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:34.359 family time, sleep, school. 301 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:39.560 Yeah, well, let's think about this power tool and whether 302 00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:43.720 and when a child really needs it a smartphone is 303 00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:46.240 more than a million times more powerful than the computer 304 00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:50.320 that landed Apollo eleven on the moon, and ninety nine 305 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:54.520 point nine percent of what's on there, frankly is distraction, right. 306 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:57.960 I mean, you can, you can use YouTube for research, 307 00:19:58.560 --> 00:20:01.199 but most people don't. Most people don't, right, you know, 308 00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:03.320 but you know a lot of people learn how to 309 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:05.120 build things from I. 310 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.320 Did once fix the garbage disposal based on a video, 311 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.560 and it was It's the most impressive thing I've ever 312 00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:15.720 done to my husband. Full sun. Yeah, that earned you 313 00:20:15.760 --> 00:20:19.560 a lot of points, like two childbirds nothing. I fixed 314 00:20:19.560 --> 00:20:23.879 the garbage disposal from a music I can't believe you 315 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.720 were able to do that. Yeah, pretty aggressive. 316 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:29.400 Put that in your pocket and need it for your 317 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:36.520 bank account? Okay. So absolutely it is hard to decide 318 00:20:36.560 --> 00:20:39.640 when to do this, and and I think the one 319 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:43.000 of the key things about the mentorship is starting a 320 00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:49.200 dialogue that you intend to continue. Privacy with kids means 321 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.399 so mom and dad can't see for the most part, 322 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.359 they have no concept of who else is out there 323 00:20:54.600 --> 00:20:57.560 or what those people are capable of doing and are 324 00:20:57.560 --> 00:21:00.760 trying to do with them, And so so I wouldn't 325 00:21:00.800 --> 00:21:02.600 let it go three months. I would have it be 326 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:08.159 an ongoing dialogue as they go. And you know, I 327 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.840 think that it's really important to stay present. That means 328 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:16.359 putting your own phone down. You know, that means turning 329 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:22.120 away or closing your laptop and being there for them. 330 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.560 So you are not only modeling for them the behavior 331 00:21:25.600 --> 00:21:28.520 you want to see in them, but you are being 332 00:21:28.600 --> 00:21:31.680 with them in that moment. Sit next to him when 333 00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:34.879 he's watching YouTube, no matter how egregious what he's looking 334 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.000 at are, and or play that video game with it 335 00:21:39.080 --> 00:21:44.200 you think you should never touch because what you're doing 336 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.520 then as you're saying I love you, I respect you, 337 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:51.280 I want to understand what engages you here. You are 338 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.080 coming into that space as the paduan, as the student, 339 00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:59.760 and you are learning from her or him about how 340 00:21:59.800 --> 00:22:04.720 do you use it technically while you're also teaching her 341 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.480 or him to be a human. 342 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.240 More parent data, including doctor Rich's thoughts on phones in schools, 343 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:25.320 why the scary stories about your kids are easier to believe, 344 00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:28.520 and maybe how social media can be an instrument of 345 00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:52.960 world peace. After the break, can we talk a little 346 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.919 bit about phones in schools, because you have said that 347 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.800 all or nothing approaches to banning phones in schools won't 348 00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:03.919 keep the desired outcome. That's a quote, and I think 349 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.639 we should ban phones in schools, So I would I 350 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:10.240 would like to hear your I would like to hear 351 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:11.320 why you said that. 352 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:18.399 Well, the practical and cynical side of me says, you 353 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.320 can ban all you want, but the kids will have 354 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.639 a workaround, right, The kids will always have a workaround. 355 00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:27.440 I don't like the word ban. I think the word 356 00:23:27.520 --> 00:23:30.920 ban raises the hairs on the back of everyone's neck, 357 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.840 and they want to push back against the ban. Let's 358 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:39.520 talk about optimizing learning opportunities. Let's think about what happens 359 00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:43.280 in school. You have didactic learning of math, science, English, 360 00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:47.840 et cetera. Do these devices help that or do they 361 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.439 distract from it? I think the answer to that is 362 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:56.159 obvious instructional time. I am as or more concerned about 363 00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:01.440 the non instructional time, because I think the most important 364 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:04.359 thing we do in school, particularly in the early years, 365 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:10.199 is social emotional learning. It's not learning the facts and 366 00:24:10.280 --> 00:24:13.200 skills that they're going to use in life. Other than 367 00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:16.080 how do I get along with people, how do I 368 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:21.560 solve conflicts, how do I address challenges of various kinds? 369 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.000 And my real worry is that if we have smartphones 370 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.320 in the kids pockets between classes, that's when mom is 371 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.040 saying that kids still picking on you in the playground. 372 00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:35.720 What did you get on that quiz? Do I need 373 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.679 to talk to your teacher? Et cetera. So the kids 374 00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:43.919 never learn to solve problems for themselves, to follow a 375 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.240 challenge and commit themselves to it. If they've got Mom 376 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.679 in their head, kind of like Jimminy Cricket sitting on 377 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:55.720 their shoulder, they never get that independence. Now, the word 378 00:24:55.800 --> 00:24:59.040 ban is horrible for a whole lot of reasons. We 379 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:04.280 all object to it. Why not talk about optimizing educational opportunities. 380 00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:10.720 And one of those opportunities actually is teaching them to 381 00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:16.400 use these devices in conscious, purposeful, mindful ways. And that 382 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.639 is a role that I think is important for smartphones. Now, 383 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.280 it doesn't mean that every kid should have a smartphone, 384 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:30.480 but we should actively teach them digital literacy and digital citizenship. 385 00:25:31.560 --> 00:25:34.960 But you agree that phones in the classroom going bing 386 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.520 bing bing bing while you're trying to learn math is 387 00:25:38.560 --> 00:25:40.119 something we should try hard to avoid. 388 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.240 Absolutely, But I would again approach it as a strengths 389 00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:48.879 based approach, a glass half full approach, and say, what 390 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.960 are we here to do. Let's do math, and let's 391 00:25:52.040 --> 00:25:56.240 make math fun and exciting instead of just droning on 392 00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.080 and on about it. You know, we have to realize 393 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:04.000 that those pin pink things are way more fun than calculus, right, 394 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.399 But so it calls on the teachers to do a 395 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.199 lot And actually we're edging into something now that I 396 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.600 think we really need to talk about it. And that's 397 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:20.960 the role of jen Ai. Yes, and you know, we 398 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.280 are playing catch up frankly with the kids already. And 399 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:31.040 unfortunately what's happened is that education, which has historically been 400 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.320 a series of hurdles, we have to clear to move 401 00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:36.800