WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.440 Welcome to parent Data by Emily Oster. This is Emily. 2 00:00:04.880 --> 00:00:07.800 I'm a professor of economics at Brown University and a 3 00:00:07.840 --> 00:00:10.720 mom of two. I write a newsletter called parent Data, 4 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.440 and on this podcast, i'll read. 5 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:12.600 It to you. 6 00:00:13.600 --> 00:00:16.120 If you want to read the newsletter yourself and see 7 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:18.400 more of my writing on parenting and pregnancy, you can 8 00:00:18.400 --> 00:00:22.680 sign up for free at www dot parentdata dot org. 9 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.800 You'll get reader stories, Q and as and other special 10 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:27.720 features in your inbox that I don't share here. 11 00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:30.560 And now for today's newsletter. 12 00:00:33.800 --> 00:00:36.960 So I'm very pleased to have Marni Handel here today 13 00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:39.199 to talk to us about Lunch Data. I'm going to 14 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.159 title this lunch Data, although it is in fact about 15 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:46.839 her new book on lunch boxes. So before we get started, Marnie, 16 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.720 I would love you to just introduce yourself and tell 17 00:00:49.800 --> 00:00:51.560 us a little bit about your background, and then say 18 00:00:51.680 --> 00:00:52.960 just a brief thing about the book. 19 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.840 Sure. My name is Marnie Handel and I'm a journalist 20 00:00:57.040 --> 00:01:00.320 living in Portland, Oregon. I'm also a mother of three 21 00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:04.720 boys under age seven, and I'm a cookbook author. This 22 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.800 is my fifth book that I've co authored with Jen Stevenson, 23 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:13.480 and it's titled lunchbox, so easy, so delicious, so much 24 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:14.080 fun to eat. 25 00:01:14.520 --> 00:01:15.000 Amazing. 26 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:17.360 Okay, so I am gonna start with the elephant in 27 00:01:17.360 --> 00:01:19.200 the room here, which is that I am a person 28 00:01:19.440 --> 00:01:22.800 who is I believe on record as being quite skeptical 29 00:01:22.880 --> 00:01:28.920 of the Bento the Bento lunchbox, and the reason for that, 30 00:01:29.240 --> 00:01:32.880 I will say is that I feel like it becomes 31 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:36.320 a competition. I feel like there are many things in 32 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.480 parenting and mothering in particular, in which we have a 33 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:41.920 lot of pressure that is put on us about performing 34 00:01:41.959 --> 00:01:44.960 in particular ways. And the idea of you know, rice 35 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:49.520 shaped like a bunny, or you know, like layers of 36 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:51.160 I mean, I don't even know. 37 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:53.000 I can't even imagine. 38 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.080 There was an Instagram story I once posted where somebody, like, 39 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:57.680 for the first day of school, made their own like 40 00:01:57.720 --> 00:01:59.560 wafer cookies and they like dip them in all these 41 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:01.080 different things so they look like pencils. 42 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:02.880 But the caption was like this is so easy, and 43 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:03.360 I was like. 44 00:02:03.960 --> 00:02:04.880 Are you out of your mind? 45 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:08.959 Okay, so that's my love. We're starting with a ranting. 46 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:11.519 But what I want to do today is talk about 47 00:02:11.600 --> 00:02:15.160 lunchboxes as an opportunity because your book is actually really 48 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:17.400 cool and it has made me think a tremendous amount 49 00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:20.400 about sort of how I think about lunch, and I 50 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:24.200 think there is a lot of opportunity to use lunches 51 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:29.560 to shape how our children interact with food, And in 52 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:31.320 some ways, I think this is a little bit of 53 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:35.760 your pitch to address the things that we worry about 54 00:02:35.760 --> 00:02:38.320 with our kids food around exposure or picky eating or. 55 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:39.440 What is it? 56 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:41.920 So let me just first ask you if. 57 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.720 You have any reactions to my ranting before we get 58 00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:45.160 into it. 59 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:50.160 I completely relate to where you're coming from, and it 60 00:02:50.200 --> 00:02:52.960 reminds me of there was a tweet last week that 61 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.600 I read that said the bear but it's just parents 62 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:00.920 making breakfast and packing lunches right before school, And I 63 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.520 feel like nothing's more relatable than that. You know, in 64 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.360 the morning, you're often making lunch and such a rush 65 00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:10.240 that it can feel like the least likely time to 66 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.040 be making a rice bunny. At the same time, because 67 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:17.880 I approach this as a journalist and I'm so interested 68 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.359 in food exposure, I see the lunch box as something 69 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:25.440 that's helped me address really specific food dynamics with each 70 00:03:25.480 --> 00:03:29.079 of my children. And I think that if you get 71 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.320 a little bit too caught up in the fact that 72 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:34.760 we have to make these lunches, which is a hard 73 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.840 truth if you're missing this opportunity to make your relationship 74 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.280 with food better, so or your kids relationship with food better. 75 00:03:44.720 --> 00:03:47.320 And I think it's a chance to play with food 76 00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:51.440 with your children, and I just don't want parents to 77 00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:54.000 sleep on that opportunity. And so that's when we made 78 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.480 this book. 79 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.560 Okay, So one piece of data that comes out a 80 00:03:58.600 --> 00:04:00.280 lot I talk to people a lot about is the 81 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:05.520 idea of kind of flavor profiles being determined in childhood. 82 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:07.480 And so there is actually a lot of evidence that 83 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.560 kids who are exposed even in utero to flavors like 84 00:04:10.600 --> 00:04:13.520 the flavors later. But even when you introduce flavors to 85 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:18.160 young kids, introducing them multiple times matters. There's a related 86 00:04:19.320 --> 00:04:22.200 piece of data which I also think is relevant here, 87 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:26.520 which is around dip in particular, but more generally around 88 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:28.520 you know, how do you get kids to eat vegetables, 89 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:31.320 And the idea there is that they're more likely to 90 00:04:31.320 --> 00:04:34.159 eat them if they are presented with a dip or 91 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:37.120 in some way that is more appealing. So one of 92 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:40.200 the things that you do a lot of in the 93 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.960 book is think about presentation in a way that is 94 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:50.360 effectively just one step up from one step up from 95 00:04:50.440 --> 00:04:54.160 just throwing the cancelope in the in a bag. So 96 00:04:54.200 --> 00:04:55.880 I like a big thing I took away was like, 97 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:58.760 maybe if I put the cancelope, if I put toothpicks 98 00:04:58.760 --> 00:05:01.760 in the cantlope, that would make the canfalobe seem different. 99 00:05:02.400 --> 00:05:04.280 And I don't know, I wonder if you could talk 100 00:05:04.320 --> 00:05:07.840 a little bit about both idea of exposure and presentation 101 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.599 and also you know how you guys thought about it 102 00:05:10.640 --> 00:05:11.880 in producing the book. 103 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:14.280 Yes, First of all, I have to know if you've 104 00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:17.200 seen that study that just came out with the babies 105 00:05:17.200 --> 00:05:19.520 in utero making grimacing overcay. 106 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:21.440 I did see that study. What did you think of 107 00:05:21.440 --> 00:05:22.760 that study? We're going to digress. 108 00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:26.560 Well, I was interested in your perspective on how good 109 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.120 that study was, because it was kind of a fascinating 110 00:05:29.200 --> 00:05:32.039 idea that kids might grandmace if they eat kale, but 111 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.279 be happier, have a happier facial expression for carrot or 112 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:36.880 something sweeter that's sweeter. 113 00:05:36.960 --> 00:05:38.400 Yeah, so I labor, so I've read this. 114 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:39.720 I did read this study. 115 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:41.760 And what they're doing is they're kind of doing four 116 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.080 D ultrasounds of a small number of babies and they 117 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680 sort of feed their mom and they actually don't have 118 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.040 the mom eat kale. It's like you eat a pill 119 00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:52.080 that tastes like yeah, and the babies make a grimacing face. 120 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.719 I mean, part of what's very hard is that that 121 00:05:54.880 --> 00:05:57.599 actually it's very difficult to judge if a baby is grimacing, 122 00:05:57.640 --> 00:06:00.080 even on a very nice ultrasound, like they have a 123 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:01.440 lot of different ways to code it. 124 00:06:01.880 --> 00:06:03.640 The other thing I worry about there, and this is 125 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.040 like way in the in the weeds of. 126 00:06:05.960 --> 00:06:09.160 Statistics, is that that study isn't very interesting if there's 127 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:11.880 no effect, right, the study that's like we gave people 128 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.400 different different kinds of vegetables and their babies look the 129 00:06:15.440 --> 00:06:18.719 same in utero is boring. So I sort of wonder 130 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.880 if there's a little bit of a publication bias, not 131 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.680 that they did anything wrong, just that maybe there are 132 00:06:23.760 --> 00:06:26.760 three thousand of those studies and the only the only 133 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.039 one that found a significant result gets published. That would 134 00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:32.400 be a sort of like publication bias version. 135 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.119 It was definitely it could be true. 136 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:36.200 It was a table headline. I mean, there's a reason 137 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:37.680 that hit the Guardian right away, you. 138 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:40.839 Know exactly yeah, the Guardian loves a good like babyface study. 139 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:46.039 Yeah right. But getting back to our kids, I think, yeah, 140 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:50.240 presentation is pretty much everything for kids. They're just much 141 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.440 more likely to try something if it's cut into a 142 00:06:53.520 --> 00:06:57.839 star shape. And this realization came to me honestly through 143 00:06:57.880 --> 00:07:02.360 occupational therapy, working with an OT for my youngest son, 144 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.920 who has a disability. She suggested that I look at 145 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:10.200 food cutters, And before I had that experience, I was 146 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.280 also really skeptical of making things look extra cute for kids. 147 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.360 But once you've had the experience of cutting cheese into 148 00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:19.800 a word that says fun, and then your child eats 149 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.720 it and he's never eaten cheese before, then it takes 150 00:07:22.760 --> 00:07:28.040 away all skepticism. But I also think there's opportunities just 151 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.640 to help kids be less rigid in life, just to 152 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.640 be more easy going and flexible. So if you were 153 00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:37.920 a child who will only you don't want to have 154 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:41.200 a kid who only eats carrot sticks, so can you 155 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:42.640 show them that a carrot? 156 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.040 But I actually love to have a child who ate 157 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.440 carrot sticks. 158 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:48.000 I don't know. 159 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:50.160 I think for my kids, like the baby carrot was 160 00:07:50.200 --> 00:07:52.000 a myth, Like my kids would. 161 00:07:51.880 --> 00:07:53.760 Not know my kids did not like the baby care. 162 00:07:53.880 --> 00:07:56.400 It's a tough bite, you know. So once they got 163 00:07:56.440 --> 00:07:59.800 into cutting it on an angle, buying carrot chips instead 164 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:04.120 of carrot baby carrots, using food cutters to cut carrots 165 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.520 into different shapes, and seeing how that could impact their 166 00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:12.000 feel around a vegetable, it just it just opened me 167 00:08:12.080 --> 00:08:13.960 up to the idea that there's a lot of room 168 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:16.040 to play here, and when you do play, kids are 169 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.000 more likely to try new things. 170 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.200 That seems that seems plausible to me. 171 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.240 Okay, so that's the sort of like exposure presentation piece. 172 00:08:25.280 --> 00:08:27.280 And I guess one thing I wanted to to sort 173 00:08:27.320 --> 00:08:28.200 of dig into. 174 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:28.520 Is the book. 175 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.400 Of course if people read it, and actually, if you 176 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:33.240 get this book and your kids will love it, like 177 00:08:33.280 --> 00:08:36.000 my son is like my son is like obsessed with 178 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.199 this book. He has it in his room and he 179 00:08:38.280 --> 00:08:39.920 like looks through it and tells me which things he 180 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.440 wanted I want, said, I can't produce all of them, 181 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.200 to be to be fair, but but I think there 182 00:08:46.280 --> 00:08:49.520 is there is sort of something to these to these 183 00:08:49.520 --> 00:08:53.280 smaller changes, to the idea of maybe it's exactly the 184 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.280 lunch you packed before, but the cancalope is cut in 185 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:58.640 a star shape, or maybe it's the lunch you could 186 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.079 you had before, but you you know, put some toothpicks 187 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:02.840 in the pieces of peanut butter and jelly. 188 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.480 I also think from a parent perspective, when you're reading 189 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:09.600 about food exposure, there's often advice to put the same 190 00:09:09.640 --> 00:09:12.280 food in front of your kid fifteen times. If you 191 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:13.880 give it to them fifteen times, they. 192 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:14.440 Might eat it. 193 00:09:14.920 --> 00:09:18.480 And that is a tough ask when you're sitting across 194 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.800 from your kid and your kids said, I can't believe 195 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.040 you gave me broccoli. I don't like broccoli. But if 196 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.600 you're giving them a Bento box which has six compartments, 197 00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:29.200 and you put broccoli in the corner fifteen times, it 198 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:31.920 doesn't feel aggressive. It just feels like eat it or 199 00:09:31.920 --> 00:09:35.320 don't there it is, so I feel like it can 200 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:40.160 be the bridge from that evidence based finding to actual life. 201 00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:43.320 The lunch box can be your sort of your trojan horse. 202 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.360 How important do you think the bento aspect of this 203 00:09:47.520 --> 00:09:49.080 is for me? 204 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.600 I think it's very important because I think that the 205 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:56.439 aspect that just opening one container and seeing everything together 206 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:00.440 gives kids that visual wow that might can vince them 207 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.080 to engage. I also think that lunchtimes have gotten shorter, 208 00:10:04.400 --> 00:10:08.080 and so it decreases the barrier for entry for kids 209 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.680 because you can start eating right away. You're not opening 210 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:17.120 bags or containers. It's all happening, and I think it's 211 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:21.640 sort of perfect for children and that there are compartments 212 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.120 so you can separate foods, and we all know that 213 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.080 that's a classic kid behavior around trying new things is 214 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.959 foods that touch, and so you can separate them out. 215 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.400 You can also have a slight push there by putting 216 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:37.480 two different fruits in one compartment. So can you just 217 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.320 stand to see those two things together? That can be 218 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.960 an early food exposure technique too. Can you just look 219 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.640 at it? You're not going to be able to remove 220 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:47.520 it from your plate. It's right there. And I think 221 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:52.800 when parents think about kids having a wide variety of 222 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:55.040 foods to eat, and this is something I've learned from 223 00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:58.400 occupational therapists, that it's a wind doesn't have to mean 224 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.760 chewing and swallowing. It can mean looking, it can mean touching, 225 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.840 it can mean using a food cutter to cut that 226 00:11:04.920 --> 00:11:08.080 star with your parent, and all of those wins are 227 00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:12.720 just easily. The Bento box is a natural pairing for 228 00:11:12.760 --> 00:11:13.800 those kinds of techniques. 229 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:16.480 Yeah, it's interesting the thing you say about sort of 230 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:20.800 having the wind being engaging with the food at all, 231 00:11:20.920 --> 00:11:24.080 because I think another thing we get out of out 232 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.320 of data is when people worry about picky eating, and 233 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.440 we think about what are the strategies you can use 234 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:30.400 when you are engaging with your kid and they are 235 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:32.600 sitting in front of the broccoli and they won't and 236 00:11:32.640 --> 00:11:35.600 they won't eat it. We are often drawn I think 237 00:11:35.640 --> 00:11:37.400 many of us as parents are drawn to what I 238 00:11:37.400 --> 00:11:40.440 guess you would call a drawn to prompts, where it's 239 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.360 if you do this, then this other good thing will happen. 240 00:11:42.400 --> 00:11:43.920 So if you finish your broccoli, then I will give 241 00:11:43.920 --> 00:11:44.440 you ice cream. 242 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.720 And it turns out that's almost exactly the opposite of 243 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.320 what you want to do, that that kind of food 244 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:52.559 engagement makes them think broccoli is bad and ice cream 245 00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:56.840 is good, as opposed to what I think we call 246 00:11:56.880 --> 00:11:59.320 it a support of prompt like, you know, why don't 247 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:03.520 you try this date? It's like a big raisin or whatever. 248 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:06.200 That's not actually true of dates at all, but anyway 249 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.360 one could say that, I guess, but you know, this 250 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:12.120 sort of strikes me again as almost what you want 251 00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:13.520 to do is sort of present the food and then 252 00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:16.480 be like, here's the food, like experiment. 253 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:16.719 With it, like it is. 254 00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:18.360 It is the food that's in front of you, and 255 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.720 you know it's your choice. I guess that's the other 256 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.760 piece of this that I wanted to ask about because 257 00:12:23.760 --> 00:12:25.880 it has come up as we have been experimenting with 258 00:12:25.920 --> 00:12:29.720 this with my son, is it's very clear that he 259 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:33.960 values the control. So I wonder when you engage with 260 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:35.960 this with your kids or you think about how much 261 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:39.480 do you let them pick what they want? 262 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.720 Well, I've always been fascinated with this idea that we 263 00:12:42.760 --> 00:12:44.800 want our kids to have agency and a lot of 264 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.400 their decisions, But when it comes to food, suddenly we 265 00:12:47.520 --> 00:12:49.720 don't want that. We want to control what they eat. 266 00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:55.840 And no wonder there's resistance there because we're giving them 267 00:12:55.880 --> 00:13:00.000 mixed messages. So for me, there's a huge grocery list 268 00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:03.440 in the beginning of the book. There's one hundred one 269 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.640 hundred lunch boxes or photograph in the book, so there's 270 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.280 endless options, thousands of foods, and there's a huge grocery 271 00:13:08.280 --> 00:13:10.160 list at the beginning of the book that you could 272 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.400 go through with a pencil in your kid and cross 273 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:14.920 off the things they don't like, just interview them. And 274 00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:17.640 I did this this summer with them. My nieces were visiting, 275 00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:19.800 so we had six kids and we needed to make 276 00:13:19.880 --> 00:13:22.040 lunches for everyone from camps. So I just went through 277 00:13:22.040 --> 00:13:25.480 the list and found the foods okay. Everyone likes grapes great, 278 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.920 everyone likes cucumbers cool. And we had a better working 279 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:31.720 list of things to have around. It made it a 280 00:13:31.760 --> 00:13:35.600 lot easier. I think working from a common grocery list 281 00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:38.480 that's approved by everyone involved is. 282 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:39.200 A key part. 283 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:42.080 And I don't think it's a bad thing for kids 284 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.520 to have agency over their food choices. Like one of 285 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:48.880 my children really doesn't like any meat, and a lot 286 00:13:48.880 --> 00:13:52.200 of adults don't. We're all moving towards more plant based eating, 287 00:13:52.640 --> 00:13:56.520 so that to me seems fine. If you like melted cheese, 288 00:13:56.520 --> 00:14:00.720 but you don't like cheese just not melted, that's okay 289 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:02.920 with me. I think we're allowed to have preferences in 290 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:06.120 what we eat, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. 291 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:09.560 I think what's problematic is if it gets to the 292 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.960 point where it interferes with your life, where you can't 293 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:13.880 go on a plateate, you can't go to a restaurant, 294 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.520 and so that's the dynamic that I'm often trying to 295 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:21.120 work with is just pushing for a little bit more 296 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.080 of an easy going. 297 00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:22.960 Attitude about food. 298 00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:25.880 But you just really, yeah, that's fun, you know, that's 299 00:14:25.920 --> 00:14:26.640 that's the main thing. 300 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:27.600 It's fun. 301 00:14:28.280 --> 00:14:30.200 So I mean think this does relate to this question 302 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:34.320 of picky eating. So what do we mean when we 303 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.320 say picky eating? A lot of us say our kids 304 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.240 are picky, and in fact, almost all kids get pickier, 305 00:14:39.400 --> 00:14:41.600 and in a way, I think that's where it comes 306 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.880 from that you're eighteen month old is shoveling down every 307 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.080 thing you put in their in their face, and your 308 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.200 three year old like strawberries yesterday and today, they're just like, 309 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.560 I'm allergic to strawberries. 310 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:54.160 That's my kid, Like, oh, I'm allergic to mushrooms. You're 311 00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:57.120 not allergic to mushrooms. He told someone at a restaurant 312 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:57.440 that once. 313 00:14:58.520 --> 00:15:02.080 So so how do we how do we think of 314 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.960 the distinction between true picky eating and any kind of 315 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.640 just children are somewhat resistant to a variety of foods 316 00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:10.520 because they're children. 317 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.880 I think, well, there is a definition, which is fifty 318 00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:17.640 foods are fewer is picky eating, which. 319 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.760 Is quite a small number of foods. 320 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.520 It really is. When you start listing the foods, you 321 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.240 can be quite reassuring to think they like, yeah, fifty foods, 322 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.840 that's fine. I also think we have to factor in 323 00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:32.280 the idea that we our diet has gotten so much 324 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.120 more varied and interesting that we're our ask of what 325 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.760 our kids will eat has also become a lot broader 326 00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:43.240 than it once was. So I think I think parents 327 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.000 can relax a little bit about parent picky eating. But 328 00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:48.240 I also say that from the perspective of someone who's 329 00:15:48.280 --> 00:15:51.800 watched a seven year old go from the hooray he's 330 00:15:51.800 --> 00:15:55.920 eating my perade beats too, He's you know, he's everything, 331 00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:58.320 and I'm look at my little foodie kid to oh 332 00:15:58.400 --> 00:16:00.640 my gosh, here I am in the news and butter 333 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:02.440 zone and I'm never going to get out of here. 334 00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:06.440 To now he'll eat almost anything. So I think it's 335 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:09.000 just I guess I com at it from the perspective 336 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.160 of watching a kid expand and feeling less worried about it. 337 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.280 I think there's ways that you can introduce food that 338 00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:22.320 take the power dynamic away. One of them is just 339 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.960 by enjoying food yourself and creating sort of agency in 340 00:16:26.040 --> 00:16:27.280 any of the meals you create. 341 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:28.280 Like at dinner. 342 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:32.160 Everyone knows this, but just like tacos, every kid likes 343 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:34.360 tacos because they have a lot of agency about what 344 00:16:34.400 --> 00:16:36.520 goes into the taco. My taco might not look like 345 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:39.960 my kid's taco, but we're all eating tacos together. And 346 00:16:40.040 --> 00:16:42.560 I guess that's also how I see lunch boxes is 347 00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:44.720 you don't have to eat every single thing I put 348 00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:47.040 in that box, but there's a lot of choices and 349 00:16:47.640 --> 00:16:49.960 you can create a lunch you like out of what's 350 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:50.400 in there. 351 00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:55.400 Let's talk about before we get into the thing I 352 00:16:55.400 --> 00:16:58.120 want to end on, which is competitive lunching, Let's talk 353 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:02.120 about lunch timing. So the things that is true about 354 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.120 the world is your kid does not get enough time 355 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.040 for lunch. And you have some I think thoughtful comments 356 00:17:08.040 --> 00:17:10.600 about needing the Beno box being helpful for the short 357 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:15.159 lunch timing that many schools provide. But I also think 358 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.560 this is something you've thought about on the journalist side, 359 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.960 is why are we not giving enough time for lunch 360 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:22.520 and how can we help with that? 361 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.080 I think from the advocacy perspective, I think asking your 362 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.240 school when your child needs lunch and how long they 363 00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:33.960 get is something we should all be doing. The American 364 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.919 Academy of Pediatrics says that we should give kids twenty 365 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.879 minutes to eat lunch, but they mean time in their seat, 366 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:45.920 So that doesn't include finding your table, opening the cheese, 367 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.919 the string cheese, chatting with your neighbor, getting your drink. 368 00:17:50.600 --> 00:17:52.880 So really, kids need at least a half an hour, 369 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.640 and you can. I think we all should be advocating 370 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.560 for kids to eat longer because all the studies show 371 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.880 that they'll they eat a broader variety of foods, they'll 372 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.800 eat more vegetables. It's just it's healthier outcomes, more energy 373 00:18:06.840 --> 00:18:09.720 throughout the day. Everything's positive about having a longer lunch. 374 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.640 But given the realities of where we are, I think 375 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.199 you can also help your kid by making sure that 376 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.920 all package snacks are open. Like I don't send a 377 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:24.000 granola bar in the package because my five year olds 378 00:18:24.080 --> 00:18:25.919 is going to have a hard time opening that. So 379 00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:27.640 even if you want it in the package, to start 380 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.200 the package. So just that they can get into lunch 381 00:18:30.280 --> 00:18:33.720 a lot quicker. And then when your lunch box comes back, 382 00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:39.040 if there's food in it, ask about why. Sometimes it's 383 00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:42.120 they didn't have enough time to eat in which case 384 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.480 you can say, Okay, could you go to the bathroom 385 00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:46.360 earlier in the day? 386 00:18:47.040 --> 00:18:47.440 Okay? 387 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.320 Could? I mean, these are things that it's true, it's 388 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:51.320 just very depressing. 389 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:53.240 Okay, it's a depressing but I'm hearing you. 390 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.159 It's depressing. But I think you need to strategize around 391 00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:58.720 making sure when your kid sits down they can eat 392 00:18:58.800 --> 00:19:01.560 right away. Can you could you try to eat before 393 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.119 chatting with the friend that you love to talk to. 394 00:19:05.600 --> 00:19:08.560 Could you pack a smoothie so that they can break 395 00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:13.399 a smoothie pretty fast? And could are there elements in 396 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:17.280 that lunch box like pistachios with shells that are just 397 00:19:17.320 --> 00:19:20.480 going to take a long time to eat. Some older kids, 398 00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:21.600 like my older. 399 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:22.160 Son, loves them. 400 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.280 He thinks that's such a fun sort of busy work, 401 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.159