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<v Speaker 1>From Fudro Media and pr X it's Latino USA. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Mariano Rosa Today. How a lawsuit filed in Argentina brings

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<v Speaker 1>closure to victims of the Franco dictatorship.

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<v Speaker 2>In Spain El Pole.

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<v Speaker 1>On April twenty eighth, twenty nineteen, Spain held elections to

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<v Speaker 1>choose the National Parliament, which in turn voted to select a.

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<v Speaker 3>Prime ministers icon A.

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<v Speaker 1>Japerio in Passao, the winning Socialist party has pledged to

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<v Speaker 1>exhume the remains of Francisco Franco, Spain's former dictator, who

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<v Speaker 1>died in nineteen sen seventy five and is buried under

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<v Speaker 1>a massive mausoleum. They say Franco doesn't deserve the honor

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<v Speaker 1>of having a major monument to his life. But this

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<v Speaker 1>pledge has caused some controversy with people on the right

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<v Speaker 1>who supported the dictator, and mixed into all of this,

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<v Speaker 1>there are also demands from victims of the Spanish dictatorship

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<v Speaker 1>to find and recover the remains of those who were

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<v Speaker 1>killed and were buried in mass graves during Franco's forty

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<v Speaker 1>year rule.

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<v Speaker 2>He Yo de la Fochia HeLa.

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<v Speaker 1>The issue of victim's remains has been a major feature

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<v Speaker 1>of the national conversation in Spain recently and is now

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<v Speaker 1>the topic of a documentary film. Over six years, Emmy

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<v Speaker 1>Award winning filmmakers On Mudena Carraseo and Robert Bahar have

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<v Speaker 1>been following a movement for justice that began with a

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<v Speaker 1>kitchen table conversation and has evolved into a groundbreaking international

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit that brought together he hundreds of survivors of the

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<v Speaker 1>dictatorship Keggio Framarza Tolousi laos ken.

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<v Speaker 3>Francismo.

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<v Speaker 1>The result is a touching documentary, Elilenzio DeRos or The

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<v Speaker 1>Silence of Others, which follows the development of this lawsuit

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<v Speaker 1>as it pieces together the stories of some of the

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<v Speaker 1>victims of Franco's unbridled violence and connects this with the

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<v Speaker 1>country's recent history.

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<v Speaker 2>Implemento Nolvido Una mistia de toros paratos unlvidos paratos Nalai.

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<v Speaker 1>The film, which was executive produced by acclaimed director Pedrol Modovar,

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<v Speaker 1>won the twenty nineteen Goya Award, which is the Spanish

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<v Speaker 1>equivalent of the Oscars. In twenty nineteen, directors al Mudena

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<v Speaker 1>Carraselo and Robert Bahar join me to talk about their

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<v Speaker 1>film all the way from Madrid. We're really happy to

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<v Speaker 1>bring you this conversation once again today and welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Latino USA. Al Mudena and Robert oh Law, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much, thank you, and right now the both of

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<v Speaker 1>you are in Madrid. Am I right?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Correct, yes, I wish I was there is all I

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<v Speaker 1>can say. Madrid is one of my all time favorite cities.

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<v Speaker 3>I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm wonderful.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, when people think now of Spain, they

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<v Speaker 1>think of Madrid there like fabulous cosmopolitan city that's like

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<v Speaker 1>up all night. They think of Barcelona, this really bohemian place.

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<v Speaker 1>But a lot of people right now are not thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about the fact that for almost forty years Spain lived

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<v Speaker 1>under the dictatorship of Francisco Franco.

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<v Speaker 2>It's great that you bring it out because very often

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<v Speaker 2>we think of the Franco dictatorship, if anyone knows about it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we think of beaches and nice weather. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't realize that a lot of the tourists that came

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<v Speaker 2>to Spain during that time were coming too a country

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<v Speaker 2>where people were being tortured, people were being murdered, so

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<v Speaker 2>there was a complete lack of freedom of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>freend of a press, freenom of expression. Obviously, for a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people who fought against it, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>very deadly dictatorship.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, in nineteen seventy five, Francisco Franco, the dictator dies,

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<v Speaker 1>and I mean, I just can't imagine what that is

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<v Speaker 1>like to suddenly the dictator has died, and now it's

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<v Speaker 1>time to move into a democratic system.

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<v Speaker 3>What's really fascinating is that in the case of sping,

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<v Speaker 3>Franco died while he was still in power, and part

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<v Speaker 3>of what that meant was that his regime had tremendous

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<v Speaker 3>power and control in the process of shaping what democracy

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<v Speaker 3>would look like in Spain, and that these two models

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<v Speaker 3>has transition through rupture. Where there's a revolution is just

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<v Speaker 3>to break with the past. This is transitioned through transaction

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<v Speaker 3>where they negotiate with the outgoing regime. And so many

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<v Speaker 3>of the ministers and the powers that be in the

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<v Speaker 3>Franco regime helped shape the democracy. There ended up being

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<v Speaker 3>a tremendous continuity between especially judges, the judiciary, the security forces, police, military,

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<v Speaker 3>many of the same families and the same officials continued.

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<v Speaker 1>So as part of this there's a discussion about amnesty right,

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<v Speaker 1>how to deal with the crimes, you know, human rights

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<v Speaker 1>violations that occurred under the dictatorship. And then there's a

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<v Speaker 1>decision to create what is known in English as a

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<v Speaker 1>pact of forgetting and Espanol.

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<v Speaker 2>Is el Pacto de lolo.

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<v Speaker 1>El Pacto del olvido, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Is as if you could create a pact for that, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It basically says, we as a country are basically going

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<v Speaker 1>to say what's done is done. Forty years of dictatorship done,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're going to make a pact to forget.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, And its main purpose was originally to free from

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<v Speaker 3>the left political prisoners, but they added a clause to

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<v Speaker 3>the amnesty law that said none of the crimes of

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<v Speaker 3>the dictatorship would ever be prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 2>The big problem with that, obviously, is that you're crafting

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<v Speaker 2>a transition into democracy at the expense of hundreds of

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<v Speaker 2>thousands of people who will not get justice or even

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<v Speaker 2>truth or even reparations. We're talking about thousands and thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of people whose family members were killed, murdered and buried

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<v Speaker 2>in mass graves still unknown mass graves all over the country.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred and forty thousand people are still buried in

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<v Speaker 2>mass graves, and it's very important to remember the film

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<v Speaker 2>is about the present. What is the legacy of that

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<v Speaker 2>packed into the present day today in a democracy that

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<v Speaker 2>it's now forty years old.

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<v Speaker 1>But in your film, actually when you go and you're

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<v Speaker 1>asking Spaniards, hey, do you know about you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>pact of forgetting? Do you know about this amnesty? You

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<v Speaker 1>know in terms of the crimes that were committed under Franco,

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<v Speaker 1>And it turns out that a lot of Spaniards don't

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<v Speaker 1>even know. So how is that possible?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think what's so fascinating about the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>people don't know is that the pact of forgetting worked,

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<v Speaker 3>and the pact of forgetting in a sense comes from

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<v Speaker 3>Franco's discourse during forty years. If you look at many people,

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<v Speaker 3>if you look at almotin his parents, for example, people

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<v Speaker 3>spent their entire lives, they're born under dictatorship and lived

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<v Speaker 3>under dictatorship, and so the discourse was we shouldn't talk

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<v Speaker 3>about that. It's dangerous to talk about that. And as

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<v Speaker 3>you reach the transition this idea to forget, the only

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<v Speaker 3>way we can ave forward as a society is to

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<v Speaker 3>put this behind us. Turn the page and move on

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<v Speaker 3>was very convincing to a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 1>The film starts with this really beautiful sequence of a

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<v Speaker 1>quite elderly woman who's kind of wrapping her hair, and

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<v Speaker 1>then she's getting her little walker, and she's in a small,

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<v Speaker 1>little Spanish village, and then she gets to the side

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<v Speaker 1>of a two lane highway and you know, she just

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<v Speaker 1>lays flowers down and says, this is where her mother

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<v Speaker 1>was murdered by the Franco regime.

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<v Speaker 2>Know that this was a very powerful scene for us

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<v Speaker 2>because it represented a lot of well, it's happened in Spain,

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<v Speaker 2>and it has happened in Spain right, the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>you could pave over a mass grave, tried to bury

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<v Speaker 2>the past, try to do as though it didn't exist,

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<v Speaker 2>this modern day democracy where the past has been buried,

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<v Speaker 2>but where there are people, thousands and thousands of people

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<v Speaker 2>who cannot forget and who go every day to the

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<v Speaker 2>side of the roads to put flowers.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think that something that a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>will remember is that it actually turns out that in

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<v Speaker 1>Spain there is a judge who ends up indicting a

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<v Speaker 1>former dictator happens to be the former dictator of Chile

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<v Speaker 1>Agusto Pinochet, and that sets a precedent.

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<v Speaker 4>In Spain. There's a judge who for more than a

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<v Speaker 4>decade has been chasing drug lords and dictators, terrorists and

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<v Speaker 4>corrupt politicians from across the globe. His name Baltasar Garzon.

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<v Speaker 4>He is arrest warrant for the late Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet,

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<v Speaker 4>set an international president.

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<v Speaker 3>What's so fascinating is that Judge Garson was a pioneer

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<v Speaker 3>and the Spanish courts were actually pioneers in using this

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<v Speaker 3>principle called universal jurisdiction to pursue human rights crimes in Chile,

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<v Speaker 3>in Argentina, and actually in many places around the world.

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<v Speaker 3>And this put Spain at the forefront of seeking justice

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<v Speaker 3>after dictatorial regimes. And after indicting former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet,

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<v Speaker 3>Garson started an investigation into the crimes of the Franco

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<v Speaker 3>dictatorship and he really started to open this and he

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<v Speaker 3>was put on trial in Spain for violating space means

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<v Speaker 3>amnesty law, and that opened the way for victims of

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<v Speaker 3>these crimes to go to Argentina to open the case

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<v Speaker 3>there using that same principle universal jurisdiction to investigate the

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<v Speaker 3>crimes of Francoism.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, once the doors close in Spain, that's when

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<v Speaker 2>the doors of justice can open somewhere else, and the

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<v Speaker 2>case falls under Maria Levini the Kurria, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>judge that has been following very closely. She's known to

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<v Speaker 2>be the judge for the stolen children in Argentina. Between

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy six and nineteen eighty three, during the dictatorship

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<v Speaker 2>in Argentina, five hundred babies were stolen from their parents

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<v Speaker 2>who were opponents of the regime. It's a curious thing because,

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<v Speaker 2>as you were saying, you know, Spain became a model

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<v Speaker 2>of how to do a transition, and in fact, many

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<v Speaker 2>many years later in Spain we look to Latin American

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<v Speaker 2>democracies to give us a lesson about memory.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up on Latino USA, the lawsuit moves forward and

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<v Speaker 1>hundreds of victims join the cause. Stay with us. Yes, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>we're back, and we're going to continue our conversation now

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<v Speaker 1>with Almudena Carrasselo and Robert Bahar. They're the directors of

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<v Speaker 1>the documentary The Silence of Others, which follows the development

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<v Speaker 1>of a lawsuit filed in Argentina to address crimes committed

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<v Speaker 1>during this Spanish dictatorship. So it turns out that it's

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<v Speaker 1>actually went over six years that you were working on

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<v Speaker 1>the film. There's an older gentleman who was tortured by

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<v Speaker 1>members of the Franco regime, and he speaks very specifically

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<v Speaker 1>about the kind of torture that he experienced. And the

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<v Speaker 1>thing is is that he remembers who it was who

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<v Speaker 1>was torturing him. And many years later, it turns out

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<v Speaker 1>that this man ends up living blocks away from his torture.

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<v Speaker 3>That was absolutely shocking to us. I think, for me,

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<v Speaker 3>as someone who grew up in the United States, just

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<v Speaker 3>as you said earlier, I don't think of Spain as

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<v Speaker 3>a country where someone could be living a few hundred

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<v Speaker 3>meters from his torturer. From a policeman nicknamed Billy the Kid,

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<v Speaker 3>who actually everyone in Madrid knows the name Billy the Kid.

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<v Speaker 3>There have been newspaper articles about Billy the Kid since

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen seventy nine or nineteen eighty, and recently it was

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<v Speaker 3>even discovered that in the days ear days of democracy,

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<v Speaker 3>Billy the Kid was actually awarded various medals for excellent

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<v Speaker 3>meritorious conduct, and thus the state pension that he receives

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<v Speaker 3>has a fifty percent bump. And then there was even

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<v Speaker 3>even more recent issue where there was a party held

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<v Speaker 3>at a police station in the center of Madrid and

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<v Speaker 3>someone took a photograph and they saw that Billy the

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<v Speaker 3>kid was real named as Antonio Gonzales Pacheco, had been

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<v Speaker 3>invited to that party, and so the present day National

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<v Speaker 3>Police Force was still communicating with him and had welcomed

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<v Speaker 3>him at an event.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that you uncover in your film

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of the crimes of the dictatorship of Franco

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<v Speaker 1>really live on. Of course, there's legacy, there's impact, there's trauma,

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<v Speaker 1>but then you talk about something that my jaw just

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<v Speaker 1>dropped because it's a story that we know so well

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<v Speaker 1>from Argentina and it's tatorship, which was the stolen children, right,

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<v Speaker 1>children who were taken when their parents were disappeared and murdered,

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<v Speaker 1>and it turns out that the same thing exists in Spain.

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<v Speaker 1>You have the stolen children of Spain.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the story of the stolen children in Spain goes

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<v Speaker 3>back to the very end of the Spanish Civil War.

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<v Speaker 2>Laya mammos La Espanola Piro Comentho.

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<v Speaker 3>And it started with a psychiatrist who was the head

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<v Speaker 3>of military psychiatry under Franco and his name was Bijonahara,

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<v Speaker 3>and he had written books and he had said eugenics

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<v Speaker 3>theories under the Nazis, and he believed that by separating

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<v Speaker 3>children of the Reds, children of Republican families, that you

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<v Speaker 3>could cleanse the children of those ideas and a sort

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<v Speaker 3>of a eugenics kind of idea. And so the idea

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<v Speaker 3>of stealing children started by taking children from Republican mothers

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<v Speaker 3>who were in jail, possibly about to be executed at

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<v Speaker 3>the end of the Spanish Civil War, and giving those

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<v Speaker 3>children to families that were loyal to the regime, in

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<v Speaker 3>some cases perhaps military families. That was in the early years,

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<v Speaker 3>and as you moved past the nineteen forties, the patterns

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<v Speaker 3>seemed to change and instead of taking children from politically

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<v Speaker 3>unfit or unacceptable families, they start to target morally unfit

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<v Speaker 3>families to single mothers, families are very poor families with

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<v Speaker 3>eleven children, and there are stories of deathbed confessions where

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<v Speaker 3>parents have said, I must tell you you are not

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<v Speaker 3>actually our child. We bought you, or every summer when

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<v Speaker 3>we went, we had to actually make installment payments. And

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<v Speaker 3>it is a terrible scandal. It's very difficult to know

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<v Speaker 3>the scale. In Garson's investigation, he estimated that there have

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<v Speaker 3>been thirty thousand potential cases up to about nineteen fifty five.

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<v Speaker 3>There are some people who estimate into the hundreds of

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<v Speaker 3>thousands through today.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm watching the movie at my desk in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of the day, you know, prepping for the interview,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I'm getting to the end of the film

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<v Speaker 1>and I got to be honest with you, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>the tears just start streaming down my face because what

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<v Speaker 1>ends up happening is that thanks to the Argentinian judge,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the older women survivors, her name is Asencion,

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<v Speaker 1>she's told that her father's remains are going to be exhumed.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's this moment when you are there when they

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<v Speaker 1>find the remains of Asencion's father, along with the remains

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty one other people, and all we're seeing is

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<v Speaker 1>a skull. But for us, since you know, who hasn't

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<v Speaker 1>seen her father, who has disappeared and put into this

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<v Speaker 1>mass grave. The moment when she sees this skull and

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<v Speaker 1>we know that it's her father. She says, Oh, it

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<v Speaker 1>was so dramatic.

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<v Speaker 2>Your pay can do I right, she says, ay a

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<v Speaker 2>whole life underground. That was one of the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>most emotionally powerful moments for us as filmmakers. When the

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<v Speaker 2>viewers crying, you really need to picture us crying there too.

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<v Speaker 1>Where do things stand now? Where is the lawsuit? Does

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<v Speaker 1>the story end with the lawsuit? What is the next

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<v Speaker 1>chapter of Spain?

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<v Speaker 3>In terms of what's happening in the Argentine lawsuit, the

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<v Speaker 3>lawsuit continues. Despite many kind words from the government. There

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<v Speaker 3>is still this amnesty law. There is still this impunity

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<v Speaker 3>and it's actually fascinating. The lawyers told us that after

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<v Speaker 3>watching the film there were some people who had been

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<v Speaker 3>scared to become plaintiffs and to join the Argentine lawsuit,

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<v Speaker 3>and they have now joined the lawsuit and have sent

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<v Speaker 3>their stories to Judge Cervini in Buenos Aires. In terms

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<v Speaker 3>of the impact that the film is having, just couple

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<v Speaker 3>of weeks ago, the film was seen by more than

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<v Speaker 3>a million people here that night. Ten minutes after the

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<v Speaker 3>broadcast ended, many of the plaintiffs in the suit launched

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<v Speaker 3>a petition asking that the government modify that amnesty laws

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<v Speaker 3>so that it cannot be applied to crimes against humanity.

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<v Speaker 3>There are now more than one hundred and fifty thousand

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<v Speaker 3>signatures on that petition, and so there's a hope that

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<v Speaker 3>the more visibility that this has, the more that through

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<v Speaker 3>cultural means as well as through legal means, this pact

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<v Speaker 3>of forgetting is broken and there is remembering that there

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<v Speaker 3>can be change.

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<v Speaker 2>We just launched actually something called our less Cone Memoria,

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<v Speaker 2>so that every school and high school in the country

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<v Speaker 2>can screen the film for free Our Les Memoria, meaning

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<v Speaker 2>Classrooms with Memory, and it really is very beautiful and

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<v Speaker 2>very powerful what films can do in terms of helping

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<v Speaker 2>people understand, helping people empathize, helping people take action. And

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<v Speaker 2>so their journey continues.

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<v Speaker 3>But there was also just an election in Spain on Sunday,

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<v Speaker 3>and on the one hand, spain Socialist Party won the

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<v Speaker 3>most number of votes and will probably be able to

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<v Speaker 3>lead the coalition government. But something very concerning also happened,

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<v Speaker 3>which is that for the first time there's an ultra

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<v Speaker 3>right party that has emerged in Spain, and twenty three

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<v Speaker 3>or twenty four representatives in the Congress are now going

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<v Speaker 3>to come from an ultra right, ultra nationalist, anti immigrant,

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<v Speaker 3>anti abortion, anti women's rights party.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Mudena and Robert. Thank you so much for your

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<v Speaker 1>work and thank you so much for joining us on

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<v Speaker 1>Latino USA.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for having us.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode was produced by Miguel Marzias. It was edited

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<v Speaker 1>by Marlon Bishop. It was mixed by Julia Caruso with

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<v Speaker 1>engineering support from Jjkrubin. The Latino USA team also includes

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<v Speaker 1>Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanoz Junior, Stephanie Lebou, Andrea

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<v Speaker 1>Lopez Cruzado, Luis Luna, Glodi mad Marquez, Martin Martinez, Nor Saudi,

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<v Speaker 1>and Nancy Trujillo. Pile Ramidez is our co executive producer.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm your host and also co executive producer. Join us

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<v Speaker 1>again on our next episode. In the meantime, look for

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<v Speaker 1>us on all of your social media. That's where I'll

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<v Speaker 1>see you, not Te bayas Baye.

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<v Speaker 5>Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline Foundation,

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<v Speaker 5>the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, and the

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<v Speaker 5>Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of

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<v Speaker 5>social change worldwide.

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<v Speaker 1>Perestan Locos, Burquees Madrid, Viamen de Las and pis La.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, boy, they're crazy to be doing an interviewed. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>here we go. Ready,