WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:07.680 Welcome to Latino USA. I'm Fernande Chavarri in for our 2 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:11.280 host MARIEO Jossa. Today we're looking back at the life 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.600 and legacy of the first and only Latin American Pope ever, 4 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:18.400 Pope Francis, or Papa Francisco, as he was known in 5 00:00:18.400 --> 00:00:29.639 the Spanish speaking world. On Holy Sunday or Easter Sunday, 6 00:00:29.680 --> 00:00:32.320 the Pope blessed a crowd from the balcony at Saint 7 00:00:32.360 --> 00:00:33.320 Peter's Basilica. 8 00:00:33.800 --> 00:00:38.800 He is coming out onto the balcony Curlie fertility. 9 00:00:40.440 --> 00:00:41.600 Borna Pascua. 10 00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:45.720 The next day, on April twenty, first. 11 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:50.199 Breaking news, Pope Francis, the first Latin American leader of 12 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:52.400 the Roman Catholic Church, has died. 13 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:55.320 He was eighty eight years old and had been battling 14 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:58.920 pneumonia for weeks in the hospital. By his own request 15 00:00:59.160 --> 00:01:02.360 and breaking with hundreds of years of tradition, Pope Francis 16 00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:06.480 was buried in a simple, unadorned tomb. Days later, on 17 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.600 May seventh, the cardinals of the world will gather inside 18 00:01:09.600 --> 00:01:12.120 the Sistine Chapel to choose a new leader of the 19 00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:16.600 Catholic Church. But before the new Pope is named, we 20 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:20.280 want to remember Francisco's papacy, its most praised achievements and 21 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:24.240 its most criticized shortcomings, plus how his leadership may influence 22 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.039 the church in the years to come and for that. 23 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.479 Today we are joined by two people who have different 24 00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:34.400 experiences with Catholicism and with the papacy. First, Natalia Imperatori 25 00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:37.399 Lee is a professor of religious studies at Manhattan College 26 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:39.800 in the Bronx and also the author of Women and 27 00:01:39.880 --> 00:01:43.000 the Church. Welcome to the show, Natalia, be Menita, thank 28 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.679 you for having me as yes, and also with us 29 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.400 today is Antonia Serejido, a friend of Latino USA and 30 00:01:49.520 --> 00:01:52.360 host of the weekly podcast in Perfect Paradise out of 31 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.920 Los Angeles Public Radio LAist. Antonia is Argentinian American whose 32 00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:59.160 family has been following the pope since his days in 33 00:01:59.160 --> 00:02:01.920 Buenos Aires. Welcome back to the show, Antho. 34 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:03.080 Very excited to be here. 35 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:06.400 To start, Natalia and Antonia, I'd love to hear if 36 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:09.440 there is like a pope moment for you, anything that 37 00:02:09.480 --> 00:02:12.320 comes up when you think of like the Pope. Natalie, 38 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:12.960 let's start with you. 39 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:17.520 There are several this pope moments for me. Some are 40 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:20.320 good and some are quite bad. The good one that 41 00:02:20.440 --> 00:02:24.640 sticks out for me is an image of him embracing 42 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:28.720 a man who had a severe disability, someone who would 43 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:33.240 definitely like draw attention and pity and probably a little 44 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:33.760 bit of fear. 45 00:02:34.040 --> 00:02:38.320 The Pope took the man's face in his hands, kissed him, 46 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:39.800 and blessed him. 47 00:02:40.040 --> 00:02:43.919 The heartwarming embrace happened yesterday in Saint Peter's Square. That 48 00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:48.120 is a signature moment that he was going to be 49 00:02:48.320 --> 00:02:52.120 a pope that was among the people, not above the people. 50 00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:57.120 There's also some bad ones. He called women, especially women 51 00:02:57.160 --> 00:03:01.600 in theology like myself the strawberries the cake of theology. 52 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.520 And yes, Ferananda made a fantastic face about that, and 53 00:03:05.720 --> 00:03:09.200 well deserved because it really was absolutely cringe worthy. I 54 00:03:09.200 --> 00:03:11.960 think a lot of the time that Francis spoke about women, 55 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:15.160 he really struggled not to be offensive, but a lot 56 00:03:15.160 --> 00:03:17.880 of the actions he took on behalf of women were 57 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.359 actually quite good. So that's a contradiction that we'll probably 58 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:22.399 get into a little bit later. 59 00:03:22.480 --> 00:03:24.000 Yeah, Antonia, my pope moment. 60 00:03:24.040 --> 00:03:28.600 Well, I saw the Pope in person in twenty sixteen. 61 00:03:28.720 --> 00:03:32.480 He visited New York City twenty fifteen. Right, Yeah, I'm sorry, 62 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:36.920 Central Park RD is an estimated eighty thousand people cheered 63 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:37.760 Pope Francis. 64 00:03:38.920 --> 00:03:43.120 He drove through Central Park and at the time, Snapchat 65 00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:46.120 was like the popular social media application, and there was 66 00:03:46.160 --> 00:03:49.480 like a little filter where it had a little cartoon 67 00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:53.840 of the Pope at the bottom, which was helpful because 68 00:03:54.040 --> 00:03:57.080 he drove by so quickly that taking a picture of 69 00:03:57.160 --> 00:03:59.280 him was actually difficult to do. I was kind of 70 00:03:59.320 --> 00:04:02.560 amazed how the popemobile is moving, but I think it 71 00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:05.720 sort of encapsulates the fact that this Pope was, especially 72 00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:07.880 for me, who's not a religious person, like, had so 73 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:11.960 much significance beyond just the Catholic community. He was really 74 00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:15.720 this important cultural icon through like you know, the first 75 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:17.400 big AI photo meme. 76 00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:20.920 This just appears to be Pope Francis wearing a white 77 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.239 puffer jacket with an iced out cross. 78 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.040 And Pope Francess was genuinely funny. He had some really 79 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.680 great moments behind the scenes that was close to him, 80 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.960 say he liked a good joke like the rest of us. 81 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:40.480 For me, I don't have an anecdote with this Pope, 82 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.240 but when I think of the Pope as like the 83 00:04:42.520 --> 00:04:46.479 representation of the Pope, I think of Undo Joan Paul 84 00:04:46.520 --> 00:04:49.960 the second, and I specifically remember being like eleven years 85 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.560 old maybe, and my mom goes, he's he's gonna the 86 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:57.360 Pope is going to do a blessing on TV. And 87 00:04:57.400 --> 00:04:59.000 they said that if you put stuff in front of 88 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.720 the TV, he could bless it for you. So I 89 00:05:01.760 --> 00:05:04.480 am like, you know, like scrambling to find a picture 90 00:05:04.520 --> 00:05:06.840 of my dad. My parents were divorced at the time. 91 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:09.200 My dad was living in the US. I missed him terribly. 92 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.960 And then I grabbed my CD from the Spice Girls 93 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:14.920 and I stood in front of the TV and waited 94 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:19.039 for to bless those two things. And I swore. I 95 00:05:19.080 --> 00:05:21.120 was like, Okay, he's protecting my dad, and he's protecting 96 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:22.160 the Spice Girls. 97 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.839 Spy Girl. That's good. They needed protection. 98 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:25.760 And that's what I think about when I think about 99 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.400 the Pope, his relevance, his significance, that it could transcend 100 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.159 the TV. He had these powers. But since then I 101 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.039 moved to the US and I am no longer practicing 102 00:05:35.080 --> 00:05:37.080 catholic I have walked away from the religion I did 103 00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:39.279 a long time ago. So that's sort of where we 104 00:05:39.320 --> 00:05:41.880 all stand when it comes to where we are on Catholicism. 105 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.360 So let me bring us back to the present now 106 00:05:44.760 --> 00:05:48.360 to speak of Pope Francis again. Papa Francisco and Natalia, 107 00:05:48.400 --> 00:05:50.520 what were you doing when you got the news that 108 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:51.520 the Pope had passed? 109 00:05:51.960 --> 00:05:53.560 So I was waking up in the morning, it was 110 00:05:53.560 --> 00:06:00.240 Easter Monday, and I opened Instagram and I was like, wait. 111 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:04.239 What he was He had just gotten out of the hospital. 112 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.000 Like I really thought that he was going to pull 113 00:06:06.080 --> 00:06:08.680 through and give us maybe three more years. So I 114 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:12.200 was really shocked. And then I was really sad because 115 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.000 it's not that he didn't seem like the pope to me. 116 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.240 He did, but he was like the best possible pope. 117 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.520 This one was really kind of, first of all, one 118 00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:26.840 of us, not just one of us in terms of 119 00:06:26.880 --> 00:06:29.040 being Latino or whatever, but one of us in terms 120 00:06:29.080 --> 00:06:31.960 of really seeing the good that the Church can do 121 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:35.680 and sort of appealing really broadly, and that his legacy 122 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.280 is in peril had me really sort of feeling a 123 00:06:38.320 --> 00:06:40.960 lot of anxiety about the future of Catholicism. 124 00:06:41.960 --> 00:06:44.880 Antonia, I want to hear about how your family reacted 125 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.400 to his passing. In Argentina. 126 00:06:46.760 --> 00:06:48.760 The person who is still very Catholic in my family 127 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:53.719 is my grandma Yawela Madi, who I adore, and it's 128 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:56.640 very interesting because neither of my parents were religious. But 129 00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.960 for me, what I saw Catholicism as growing up was 130 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:04.279 my grandmother's sense of community. And I sent a message 131 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:05.840 to my grandma and I told her, I'm so sad 132 00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:07.760 about the Pope's passing, and she was like, yes, but 133 00:07:07.960 --> 00:07:10.080 we have to be so grateful we had him, you know, 134 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:13.320 as long as we did. And she sounded so resolute 135 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:16.880 and just so proud to have had an Argentine pope. 136 00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:18.840 And your grandma sent you a note that had a 137 00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:24.480 really interesting line in it that said, Naries prophet. 138 00:07:25.320 --> 00:07:30.160 Navie prophet and Sutierra imucho patriot. 139 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.840 Yeah, she's saying so like Jesus says, nobody is a 140 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:41.000 prophet in their own land, and that he was very misunderstood. 141 00:07:43.080 --> 00:07:57.920 Perimo the pro personal mondoos parallel money. 142 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.600 That she hopes that his successor is somebody who continues 143 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:08.360 with Pope Francis's message of peace in the world, taking 144 00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:12.760 care of the environment and social justice for all of humanity. 145 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:17.800 Francisco de Gan Sempas. 146 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.520 Staying on his messaging Natalia, I'm curious, what are some 147 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:30.760 of the ways that Pope Francis brought his cultural identity 148 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:32.120 to his papacy. 149 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:37.480 Francis is himself the child of migrants, right. He knows 150 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.960 what it means to have to leave everything behind. And 151 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:41.960 I think one of the most significant things that sort 152 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:44.240 of tipped us off was when he decided that his 153 00:08:44.280 --> 00:08:46.319 first papal trip would be to Lampusa. 154 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.840 Lam produces the first port of safety for thousands of 155 00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:53.320 migrants and asylum seekers from North Africa every year. 156 00:08:53.800 --> 00:08:58.080 Italy was struggling with assimilating a great influx of migrants, 157 00:08:58.760 --> 00:09:03.480 and Francis, rather than weigh in politically or make a 158 00:09:03.520 --> 00:09:07.000 statement or anything like that, went to Lampe Lusa. He 159 00:09:07.040 --> 00:09:09.040 said that was the first trip he wanted to make 160 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.200 as the pope, and it really signaled that this was 161 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:17.080 someone who wanted to be close to people on the margins. 162 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:19.760 And I think that that is something that he gets 163 00:09:19.920 --> 00:09:24.720 from Latin American social organizing, from being in the global South, 164 00:09:25.280 --> 00:09:29.200 where you're not really the protagonists of the universe, but 165 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.640 rather the universe is kind of happening to you. So 166 00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:36.200 I do feel like he understands that that people are 167 00:09:36.280 --> 00:09:39.280 leaving really untenable situations and that there's no kind of 168 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.719 victory in migration. Another example of this kind of solidarity 169 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.800 that he had up until the last day he was alive, 170 00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:50.240 he called a church in Gaza every night. 171 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:54.520 Pope Francis spoke nightly with Gaza's only Catholic church. 172 00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:10.240 He did that even when he was like mostly incapacitated. 173 00:10:10.280 --> 00:10:12.560 He made a point to just call and check in 174 00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:15.120 and be with them, even though he couldn't be with them. 175 00:10:15.520 --> 00:10:17.800 He didn't make a statement, he didn't go on TV 176 00:10:17.920 --> 00:10:21.319 about it. But that kind of example is what makes 177 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:26.840 his legacy more transcending the church, right, It transcends just Catholics, 178 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.120 and it sets a moral example I think for everyone, 179 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.640 including people who've walked away like yourself. We call you guys, 180 00:10:33.640 --> 00:10:35.280 the duns, and it's okay to be done. 181 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.560 Coming up on Latino US say what Papa Francisco changed, 182 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.439 what he didn't, and a plot twist we didn't see coming. 183 00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:48.680 But before we take a break, we want to share 184 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.040 some of the voicemails that we received from Latino USA 185 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.920 listeners about what the Pope meant to them and for 186 00:10:54.040 --> 00:10:56.080 some what it was like to be in Rome the 187 00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:58.120 day after he passed. Take a listen. 188 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:03.920 My name is lizzutiis from Tucson, Arizona. To me, for 189 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:09.360 Francis was just such a punk rock figure I left 190 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:15.040 the church for years and just his kindness, His logical 191 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:20.040 thinking is critical thinking, even though it was imperfect, it was. 192 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.400 So punk rock. 193 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.640 Hi, my name is Karen Vegas. Pope Francis is a 194 00:11:25.640 --> 00:11:29.040 reminder of the Jesus and his life that Catholics believe 195 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.480 in and the promise that a human being, a pope, 196 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:35.480 could be like him in this day and age. As 197 00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:37.840 the days, weeks and years go by, will begin to 198 00:11:37.880 --> 00:11:43.840 truly comprehend and grasp his positive and transformational influence. Papa Francisco, 199 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:44.800 disca and sampas. 200 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:49.880 Hi, I'm Luciana, I am from Argentina. I still remember 201 00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:54.840 that emotion. I felt it and watched the Pope's innagras. 202 00:11:55.160 --> 00:11:58.920 The emotion brought tears to all of us. The pride 203 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:03.920 I'm d sold by the majority of Argentina people would 204 00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:05.839 be eternal, just like him. 205 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.800 We never thought that we will be coming to Rome 206 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.880 with no pope. It was four hours waiting to see him. 207 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:18.440 In about an hour inside Saint Peter's Basilica, you could 208 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:23.840 feel the grief of the people inside the church. 209 00:12:25.160 --> 00:12:30.839 And Albi and loyalty understands in the dale simply come 210 00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:37.880 camier pos you know the nah in sense, we need. 211 00:12:37.880 --> 00:12:43.439 Discrip simply as a moment, and it's supposed they will 212 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:48.120 need never be forgotten because of his commitment with the poor, 213 00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:51.840 with the less fortunate, with the immigrants. 214 00:12:55.679 --> 00:13:02.800 Stay with us, yes, hey, we're back. Before the break, 215 00:13:03.040 --> 00:13:06.160 Natalie and Perratori Lei and Antonio Serrihido broke down the 216 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:10.280 cultural significance of Pope Francis papacy. Now let's dig into 217 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.040 some of the changes that he made and some he didn't. 218 00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:16.120 Let's get back to our conversation. I want to do 219 00:13:16.280 --> 00:13:18.959 like a like a sort of in my head, like 220 00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:20.839 a list of some of the things that the Pope 221 00:13:20.880 --> 00:13:24.280 did that changed as far as church policy goes. He 222 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.560 allowed people who had been divorced after having a Catholic 223 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.680 wedding to take communion, which may seem like a small change, 224 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.280 but I know from people in my family who are 225 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:35.520 in that situation it was incredibly meaningful. 226 00:13:36.280 --> 00:13:42.040 Colossal colossal, Okay, colossal for Latin America and for Latinos 227 00:13:42.040 --> 00:13:44.400 in the United States. Right, so many of our family 228 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.200 members are married Porlo Seville and not in the church. 229 00:13:48.280 --> 00:13:51.679 Because church weddings have cost money sometimes, which is a 230 00:13:51.800 --> 00:13:56.280 crime against God. And because people don't have the ability, 231 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:58.160 they haven't received all of their sacraments because of the 232 00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:00.679 pre shortage, a myriad of reasons. White people don't get 233 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.720 married in the church, and they hold themselves back from 234 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.520 going to receive communion. And all Francis did was say, 235 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:10.840 you know what, we should probably encourage these people, walk 236 00:14:10.880 --> 00:14:13.200 along with them and see if we can bring them back. 237 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:17.719 I want the church to be for doss right, and 238 00:14:17.800 --> 00:14:22.680 I think especially divorced Catholics like huge or people in 239 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:24.400 a regular situations is what he called it. 240 00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:26.320 He wants all those people at the table. 241 00:14:26.760 --> 00:14:28.440 The next thing on the list was he changed the 242 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.480 way the Catholic Church views the death penalty, saying that 243 00:14:31.640 --> 00:14:35.040 the death penalty was inadmissible. He called pollution a sin. 244 00:14:35.680 --> 00:14:39.160 He brought in revolutionary shift to the tone of speaking 245 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.160 of LGBTQ issues. Under his watch, he overhauled the Vatican 246 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.800 Constitution by allowing any baptized Catholic, including women, to head 247 00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:50.400 most departments of the Catholic Church's Central Administration. But he 248 00:14:50.520 --> 00:14:53.880 also upheld the church's views on abortion as being a sin. 249 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.479 There was no change there he once repeated a homophobic 250 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:01.640 slur despite his advance in the way he spoke of 251 00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:05.080 LGBTQ issues, And he made no changes to the rule 252 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.160 that says the women cannot be ordained as priests. And 253 00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:13.560 I'm wondering if you can speak to the internal strife 254 00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:16.560 brought on by Francis, you know, why was he open 255 00:15:16.640 --> 00:15:19.280 to some reform in some cases but not others. And 256 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.880 even by asking that question, am I being reductive into 257 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.920 thinking that all of these things should align with one 258 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.640 side and therefore you choose one side that says if 259 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.520 you're pro LGBTQ, you must also be pro abortion. 260 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:31.440 You must, you know, Like I think, one of the 261 00:15:31.520 --> 00:15:33.880 things that is important to say at the outset of 262 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.640 this is Francis change doctrine a lot of it. Making 263 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:41.480 the death penalty inadmissible in all cases is a massive shift. 264 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.920 You can't argue no matter how guilty somebody is, no 265 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.320 matter how heinous their crime is, it doesn't matter in 266 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.440 all cases, like abortion, no matter how you feel about that. 267 00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:52.880 But if you're going to say abortion is impermissible in 268 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.680 all cases, then guess what the death penalty is too. 269 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.480 And this is the source of the contradictions right that 270 00:15:59.520 --> 00:16:01.880 you were talking about Fernanda with the kind of like, 271 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.160 shouldn't you be against all these things or for all 272 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.440 of these things. But a lot of the people who 273 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:08.720 are on the abortion is wrong in all cases because 274 00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:12.840 babies are innocent and perfect and pure. Team are on 275 00:16:13.040 --> 00:16:15.120 the but we should be able to kill criminals. 276 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:15.480 Team. 277 00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:19.680 Their opposition to abortion is based on blamelessness and blame 278 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:24.560 versus the dignity of human life, whereas Francis is pulling 279 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.240 back and being like, no, no, no. If you're saying 280 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.800 the dignity of human life, then every human life has dignity, 281 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.960 even the ones that you think have no value to me. 282 00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:36.280 I understood that Papa Fancisco one of his main goals 283 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:40.600 was to welcome more people into the church, that the 284 00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:43.000 Catholic Church had lost a lot of its members and 285 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.160 he really wanted to expand the church's influence and have 286 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:47.000 more people come in. 287 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.400 Did he do that? I think so. 288 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:51.840 If you check any kind of social media in the 289 00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:55.320 past few days, so much of my feeds are I'm 290 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.280 not even Catholic. I'm not even religious. I don't even 291 00:16:58.640 --> 00:17:01.440 like religion. But I'm sad that this pope has died. 292 00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:05.360 I think it just it depends on how you measure success, right, Right, 293 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.440 So like let's think about this, right, Historically, Europe, which 294 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.560 is where Christianity was strongest for the longest time, right 295 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.879 and brought us colonialism and all the rest, has more 296 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:20.760 or less it's kind of done with church, really pretty secular, 297 00:17:21.080 --> 00:17:25.160 and consistently Europeans under report how often they go to church, 298 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.880 whereas Americans consistently over report how often they go to church. 299 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.800 This reveals attitudinal things about like in Europe it's viewed 300 00:17:32.800 --> 00:17:35.880 as sort of backward and superstitious, whereas in the United 301 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.560 States it's viewed as a mark of a good person. 302 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.280 No right exactly. 303 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.240 But church attendance in and of itself, I don't know 304 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.560 is going to be a good measure of this pope's impact, 305 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.479 because people's experience of the church is not the pope, right. 306 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.240 People's experience of the church is whatever's going on in 307 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.000 the church that they go to on Sunday. And sometimes 308 00:17:57.080 --> 00:17:59.320 that's a good experience and people feel like they are 309 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:03.440 participating and it's a vibrant community. And sometimes it's like 310 00:18:03.560 --> 00:18:06.560 the celebrant is like yelling at people who don't come 311 00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:10.040 to church. And nobody wants to go back. That is 312 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.840 a separate issue. I think from was this a successful 313 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.680 papacy was the pope? Because the papacy transcends the Catholic Church. 314 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.240 It's a global player, and I don't want to play 315 00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:23.240 it either. Like he's was super good and everything he 316 00:18:23.320 --> 00:18:24.679 did was perfect and it was awesome. 317 00:18:24.800 --> 00:18:24.919 Right. 318 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.280 It's important to remember the church sits at the UN 319 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.080 and it has a voice and a vote at the 320 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.680 United Nations, and it frequently votes against things that help 321 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.160 women in poor countries, like with family planning and stuff 322 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:42.040 like that. But in terms of Francis's redirection and just 323 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.720 kind of moving the church back toward being a moral 324 00:18:44.840 --> 00:18:48.919 voice after the scandals of the sex abuse cover up 325 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.760 had just sort of decimated the moral voice of the church. 326 00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:56.280 A Pennsylvania grand jury says more than three hundred priests 327 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.959 sexually abused more than a thousand children and likely thousand 328 00:19:00.080 --> 00:19:01.960 and is more over seven decades. 329 00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:05.320 When he became pope in twenty thirteen, the church, the 330 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.399 Catholic Church was riddled with controversy about the sexual assault 331 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.359 of children by clergymen and the structure in the church 332 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.440 which allowed this to continue. I want to hear a 333 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.000 little bit about the culture that Pope Francis inherited and 334 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.480 what steps did he take to deal with the abuse 335 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.679 of children, but perhaps even more important, what he didn't 336 00:19:24.840 --> 00:19:29.080 do and what he should have done to fight it 337 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.840 more effectively. 338 00:19:30.320 --> 00:19:34.040 So when Francis ascended to the papacy, well when Benedict resigned, 339 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:39.000 you could tell that the rot of sort of protecting 340 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.760 one another and the culture we called an economy of secrecy, right. 341 00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:48.440 I mean, yes, pedophilia is a scandal, but what scandalized 342 00:19:48.520 --> 00:19:52.679 people was that the church would cover it up, right, 343 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.200 Because when you have a child, we're relying on a 344 00:19:56.280 --> 00:20:01.000 sort of social contract to root out and prevent that 345 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:04.640 kind of abuse. When you find out that the institution 346 00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:08.480 that you trusted the most was actively working to protect 347 00:20:08.560 --> 00:20:11.240 those people, that's a kind of betrayal that you don't 348 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.080 really come back from. And I think that that is 349 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:17.560 the pain that people are just still dealing with. Francis, 350 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.680 you know, I think I give him like a B 351 00:20:20.840 --> 00:20:23.879 minus on this. He did a lot, but when he 352 00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:26.440 was confronted, it's like, no, I don't believe that it's 353 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:28.800 just calumnia, right, that's calumny or bad gossip. 354 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.800 Pope Francis defended a Chilean bishop saying, quote, the day 355 00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:34.480 they bring me proof, I'll speak. 356 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:36.400 There is not one thread of proof. 357 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.639 It's all calumny. Is that clear? 358 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.560 That was his instinct right to say, oh no, my 359 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:43.840 friend could never do that, right, But it turns out 360 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.840 his friend did right, and this is anomally. 361 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.520 Did his friend do it? He is in an institution 362 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.800 that has time and time and time and time and 363 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.600 time and time again covered it up, yes, and never 364 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:56.919 punished anybody. 365 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:01.800 And given people promotions. However, Francis saw that he was wrong. 366 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.840 He said he was wrong, that he. 367 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.399 Did do Pope Francis asked for forgiveness. 368 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.200 The manifesta here I feel bound or express my pain 369 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.000 and shame, the shame that I feel at the irreparable 370 00:21:14.080 --> 00:21:16.560 damage caused to children by some ministers of the church. 371 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:21.920 Could he have done more? Could he have been more public? Yes? 372 00:21:22.800 --> 00:21:26.119 I think that this kind of the culture of cover up, 373 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.000 this is a very Italian thing. It's also I think, 374 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.840 a very Latino thing, right, and I think that we 375 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.439 inherited that a lot from Europe, and it's still very 376 00:21:32.520 --> 00:21:35.040 much in vogue in places like Italy that you have 377 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.359 to give al martiempo buenagada all the time, and you 378 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.119 don't air your family's dirty laundry out in the world 379 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.680 because it's going to scandalize people, when in fact, what 380 00:21:44.840 --> 00:21:48.960 really scandalizes people is that you wouldn't report this person 381 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.560 immediately and kick them out, Right, that's the scandal, and 382 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.679 that's the truth. Scandal is produced by people who are 383 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.879 afraid of the wrong thing. They're afraid of people finding 384 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.240 out about evil, and in the process of doing that, 385 00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:04.200 they end up collaborating with evil. And I think that 386 00:22:04.320 --> 00:22:06.840 that too often was the sin of the church. Francis 387 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.560 tried with mixed results. So he's dealing with this pool 388 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.960 of people that is so tainted and trying to kind 389 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.160 of navigate being a moral voice again. And that's where 390 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:20.280 those small acts of solidarity. I really do think that 391 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.320 those are the only things that you can do in 392 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.159 a situation like he's in, say you're sorry. 393 00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:27.359 And this is something I think that we have to 394 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.280 have a broader cultural conversation about. 395 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.560 Is it enough to say I'm sorry that this happened, 396 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.760 or does repentance involve some sort of reparations? 397 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:37.120 Right? 398 00:22:37.600 --> 00:22:39.840 And that part is something the church is still struggling with. 399 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.920 We know that starting May seventh, the conclave will begin 400 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.680 and when we can expect the next election of the 401 00:22:51.800 --> 00:22:54.840