WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>So tomorrow, so Emily, tell me about this subreddit.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so this subreddit is called our slash Beyond the Bump,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have to say I'm a little obsessed with it.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a very kind of love hate relationship. As

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<v Speaker 2>far as subreddits about pregnancy and parenting go. This one's

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<v Speaker 2>not for like regular moms. This one's for like cool moms.

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<v Speaker 3>Is the one for regular moms, just like the Bump.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's that's an app actually, Okay, No, like the

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<v Speaker 2>regular one is like our slash Pregnancy or our slash

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<v Speaker 2>Toddlers or whatever. But this one is like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>moms who are ready to like really engage in like

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<v Speaker 2>real talk about what it's really like. And what that

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<v Speaker 2>amounts to is these really kind of intense emotional confessionals

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<v Speaker 2>about things that have been really hard. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that people feel like they can kind of hide behind

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<v Speaker 2>the anonymy of Reddit and engage in this community of

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<v Speaker 2>people who are like here for it, and they end

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<v Speaker 2>up talking about really traumatic birth experiences and people will

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<v Speaker 2>jump in and like hold them and share theirs or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like those those can be pretty powerful. But

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<v Speaker 2>then also people are like going off on their mother

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<v Speaker 2>in laws, and you know, my mother in law like

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<v Speaker 2>fed my kid at the wrong time and like did

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<v Speaker 2>this thing that wasn't really that unsafe, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>like a little unsafe. Should I cut her out of

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<v Speaker 2>my life?

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<v Speaker 4>My mother in law gave my child a honey nut cheerio.

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<v Speaker 4>Should I revoke her access forever or just for a year?

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<v Speaker 5>Exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, I don't know how many people are just able

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<v Speaker 2>to give up babysitters like this. But all right, So

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<v Speaker 2>that's our slash beyond the Bump, and I find myself

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<v Speaker 2>quite moved by it and also really kind of repelled it.

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<v Speaker 2>But then there is the weekly pinned thread where people

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<v Speaker 2>complain about their partners, and if you actually search in

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<v Speaker 2>the little search bar for hate plus husband, you get

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<v Speaker 2>pages and pages of posts with the title of I

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<v Speaker 2>hate my husband. You guys, I really think I hate

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<v Speaker 2>my husband? Why do I hate my husband? Is it

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<v Speaker 2>normal to hate my husband this much? After having a baby?

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<v Speaker 4>Since having a baby, I hate my husband. I think

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<v Speaker 4>I hate my husband. I'm starting to hate my husband.

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<v Speaker 4>I hate my husband. PSA, I hate your husband. Well

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<v Speaker 4>that's different.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 4>Being coming a mother taught me how to love myself,

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<v Speaker 4>and now I hate my husband.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there are a lot of marriages that are really

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<v Speaker 2>on the brink, Like you'd almost think that they're all

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<v Speaker 2>on the brink by going to this subreddit and it's

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<v Speaker 2>like these are the posts like every other day, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like I said, the anonymity of it definitely

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<v Speaker 2>opens people up, and I think that it's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>nice that there's a space for that. I can't quite

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<v Speaker 2>tell if this is kind of for clout or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of misery loves company, or if everyone here is

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<v Speaker 2>really really struggling. And you know, it's the Internet, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's probably a combination of both.

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<v Speaker 1>My husband is sleeping and I hate him.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, I relate to that. This is parent data. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>Emily Oster.

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<v Speaker 4>Reddit has a tendency to exacerbate real world problems, but

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<v Speaker 4>that doesn't mean that these problems are not real.

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<v Speaker 3>And when you look at the data, it is true.

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<v Speaker 4>That after people have kids, marital satisfaction declines. Having a

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<v Speaker 4>baby drastically changes everything in your partnership that was familiar,

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<v Speaker 4>that was predictable, that you got used to, and some

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<v Speaker 4>of those are the reasons you got into their relationship

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<v Speaker 4>in the first place. That's the reality of having kids,

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<v Speaker 4>and as much as we love our kids, it can

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<v Speaker 4>be an incredible shock to the system. There were dates, nights,

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<v Speaker 4>there were lazy Sunday mornings in bed, and now there

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<v Speaker 4>are feedings and diaper changes, feeling touched out, packing school

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<v Speaker 4>lunches the night before or at five point forty five

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<v Speaker 4>in the morning. To quote Ethan Hawke's character from before Sunset,

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<v Speaker 4>we used to be in love. Now we're roommates who

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<v Speaker 4>run a daycare together. There are things that bring us

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<v Speaker 4>together in ways we could not imagine a crazy amount

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<v Speaker 4>of shared love. But there's also a crazy amount of

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<v Speaker 4>shared details and shared responsibilities and.

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<v Speaker 3>Less money and more work. And it's a.

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<v Speaker 4>Tall order to ask your relationship to just adapt to

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<v Speaker 4>something like that. A lot of couples, most couples struggle,

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<v Speaker 4>and they find themselves on beyond the bump, explaining that

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<v Speaker 4>their husband's sleeping and they hate them. But going to

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<v Speaker 4>Reddit is actually not the best place to solve these problems,

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<v Speaker 4>and for many, probably most couples, this issue is not hopeless.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's where today's guest comes in. Doctor Ya L.

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<v Speaker 4>Schoenbrun is a clinical psychologist and author, a researcher who

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<v Speaker 4>focuses on the science and data behind healthier, happier relationships,

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<v Speaker 4>and she's here to babyproof your relationship. In this conversation,

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<v Speaker 4>we talk about the kinds of conversations couples need to

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<v Speaker 4>be willing to have to actually be heard.

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<v Speaker 3>We talk about the difference between.

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<v Speaker 4>Understanding conversations and problem solving conversations. We also talk about

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<v Speaker 4>when is a good time to have hard conversations and

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<v Speaker 4>when isn't, notably when you are angry and tired.

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<v Speaker 3>We talk about how to babyproof your relationship.

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<v Speaker 4>Before the baby arrives, and then we get into some

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<v Speaker 4>lightning round specific issues about what can strain couples, what

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<v Speaker 4>can overcome the strain, and how we can try to

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<v Speaker 4>show up as our best selves not just for our kids,

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<v Speaker 4>but for each other. And yes, if you fall along

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<v Speaker 4>in my marriage, we will be discussing the conflict over

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<v Speaker 4>the dishwasher loading after the break. Doctor Yeah, Elle shoon Brun,

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<v Speaker 4>Doctor yeah, l Shoon Brun. Thanks for being here again.

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<v Speaker 5>So excited to join you. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm very excited to talk about everybody's favorite topic, which

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<v Speaker 4>is that you will hate your partner.

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<v Speaker 3>After you have children.

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<v Speaker 4>If there's one like accepted truth about marriage and child marrying.

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<v Speaker 1>It's that after kids, your partner is a loser.

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<v Speaker 4>So you can see that, you know, from people's everyday

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<v Speaker 4>experience from Reddit, but also we see this in the data.

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<v Speaker 4>So actually there is a fair amount of data showing

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<v Speaker 4>the marital happiness declines when people have kids, especially in

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<v Speaker 4>the first year.

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<v Speaker 3>But even though people like to talk about this and

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<v Speaker 3>make jokes about it, actually it's not great.

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<v Speaker 4>And the goal here is to give people some tips

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<v Speaker 4>to make that happen less or at least talk about

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<v Speaker 4>why it happens.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're going to do that.

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to be productive and not just talk about Wait,

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<v Speaker 4>let's start. Do you have a partner?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>I do.

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<v Speaker 5>I have a husband?

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<v Speaker 4>You have a husband, and what can you just just

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<v Speaker 4>so we set the stage, can you just.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell me one thing that he does that annoys you?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh? Why do I begin? No, I'm just kidding, he is.

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<v Speaker 5>I actually was just recently talking to a marital researcher

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<v Speaker 5>who had this lovely metaphor of some of us are

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<v Speaker 5>ferns who need a whole lot of watering. We're like rainforests,

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<v Speaker 5>and we just need so much attention, right in the

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<v Speaker 5>form of watering in the form of attention, and so

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<v Speaker 5>I am definitely a fern and he is more of

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<v Speaker 5>a succulent, so a difference, and so he's kind of

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<v Speaker 5>off doing his thing, and I really need a whole

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<v Speaker 5>lot of attention, especially if I'm sort of putting out

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<v Speaker 5>energy in caring for the kids and caring for my

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<v Speaker 5>patients and doing my writing work. And what he needs

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<v Speaker 5>is like independent time to because he's a classic introvert.

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<v Speaker 5>So it annoys me that when he's stressed he needs

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<v Speaker 5>time away.

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<v Speaker 3>What is one thing you really like about him?

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<v Speaker 5>So this is a thing that so in addition to

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<v Speaker 5>my background as a researcher, and I also do marital

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<v Speaker 5>treatment a lot. And one of the things I often

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<v Speaker 5>think about is that any couple can make strides, can

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<v Speaker 5>make gains if they are willing to work on it.

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<v Speaker 5>So he is always willing to work on things with me,

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<v Speaker 5>and I think that is so critical. And it's kind

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<v Speaker 5>of like a relational growth mindset that it almost doesn't

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<v Speaker 5>matter where you begin, so long as you have a

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<v Speaker 5>partner who's willing to collaborate with you and getting to

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<v Speaker 5>a place that works better for the both of you.

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<v Speaker 5>Recognizing that it will never be perfect, and he is

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<v Speaker 5>definitely in that camp.

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<v Speaker 3>I love that. I was going to go in like

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<v Speaker 3>a much more like specific direction with mine. Yours are

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<v Speaker 3>much better.

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<v Speaker 4>I was going to be like, I like the way

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<v Speaker 4>he loads the dishwasher, but I don't like it. I

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<v Speaker 4>don't like did he snores? Those are yeah?

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<v Speaker 5>No, I like, I like your snoring thing. And that

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<v Speaker 5>actually comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room too,

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<v Speaker 5>because it causes people to sleep in separate beds, which

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<v Speaker 5>causes a lot more distance because they don't have that

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<v Speaker 5>time together. How do you guys handle the snoring? It is?

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<v Speaker 4>Actually it doesn't most of the time. I can just

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<v Speaker 4>I just sleep through it. Although in this in the

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<v Speaker 4>spirit of growth mindset, I did suggest that we get

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<v Speaker 4>some breathewrte strips and he said he would consider that,

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<v Speaker 4>and so that that's like the next growth mindset experience.

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<v Speaker 4>But actually, most of the time, I just he's not

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<v Speaker 4>that bad, so you do kind of get used to it.

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<v Speaker 5>I think that that is also a good attitude and

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<v Speaker 5>has some growth mindset embodied in it.

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<v Speaker 4>Growth mindset. That's the theme for today. Okay, so let's

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<v Speaker 4>start with you. You know you've written some stuff for

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<v Speaker 4>us on this, and I want to sort of talk

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<v Speaker 4>through some of these productive approaches that people can take

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<v Speaker 4>to try to address these declines.

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<v Speaker 1>But let's just start with, like, what do you see

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<v Speaker 1>you treat people on this?

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<v Speaker 2>Is?

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<v Speaker 4>What is the common pattern of sort of post child

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<v Speaker 4>bearing marital stuff?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well so is it is one of these really

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<v Speaker 5>common research findings. And it's certainly, as you said, something

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<v Speaker 5>we see a lot on Reddit, we see articles about

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<v Speaker 5>it that there is a precipitous drop in marital satisfaction

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<v Speaker 5>after babies enter the scene. The thing that I wrote

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<v Speaker 5>one piece about for parent Data that I think isn't

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<v Speaker 5>important finding is that not all couples go through this

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<v Speaker 5>precipitous drop, and so you're not doomed. If you're thinking

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<v Speaker 5>about having children, your marriage is not doomed. And if

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<v Speaker 5>you've had a precipitous drop, your marriage is also not doomed.

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<v Speaker 5>So there's lots of variability, and we can look at

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<v Speaker 5>the averages and there is an average job. But some couples,

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<v Speaker 5>and in fact the many couples do just find they're

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<v Speaker 5>sort of a stressful period, but they come together and

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<v Speaker 5>they cope as collaborators and that's great, and for a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of folks that change, those new stressors lack of sleep,

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<v Speaker 5>more demands on us really cause a fracturing. And so

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<v Speaker 5>one of the things to think about is before you

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<v Speaker 5>have kids to try to invest some time and energy

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<v Speaker 5>in building up your relationship or in preparing for the

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<v Speaker 5>transition as collaborators. And so a lot of the interventions

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<v Speaker 5>that have been tested with this transition of partnership to

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<v Speaker 5>co parents look at intervening in the lead up, so

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<v Speaker 5>helping people to strengthen the relationship before kids and then

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<v Speaker 5>helping them to figure out how to cope better after

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<v Speaker 5>the arrival of kids. And so there are a variety

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<v Speaker 5>of ways to intervene in both time pere, So can.

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<v Speaker 4>We talk about the intervening before And you know, I

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<v Speaker 4>think is as sort of scientists and researchers, we talk

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<v Speaker 4>about this idea like we're going to intervene, but what

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<v Speaker 4>does that mean practically? Like what do they do in

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<v Speaker 4>these interventions and how do I know they work?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so there are randomized interventions looking at how people

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<v Speaker 5>can build up skills and so what does that actually

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<v Speaker 5>look like? I Mean, one thing to talk about it

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<v Speaker 5>is like what does actual couples therapy look like when

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<v Speaker 5>I have a couple who comes in and is telling me,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, we really don't see eye to eye on

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<v Speaker 5>how to manage the nighttime feedings, or on who does

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<v Speaker 5>the diapers, or on who's going to make a transition

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<v Speaker 5>in how they navigate their work life now that we

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<v Speaker 5>have children to take care of. So what does that

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<v Speaker 5>look like? A lot of it just looks like conversations

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<v Speaker 5>and helping people talk things through because a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>people don't know how to talk things through or avoid

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<v Speaker 5>it because it's kind of uncomfortable. These are difficult topics

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<v Speaker 5>to encounter. There's a lot of anxiety about what each

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<v Speaker 5>person wants and doesn't want. Sometimes there's a history of

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<v Speaker 5>conflict that people are worried about, kind of tripping up

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<v Speaker 5>and setting off a minefield. And so in the protected

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<v Speaker 5>environment of a couple's therapy room, you have somebody who's

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<v Speaker 5>kind of a mediator, who can structure things, who can

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<v Speaker 5>make sure that each person gets heard and feels heard.

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<v Speaker 5>And then there's some problem solving, collaborative problem solving, so

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<v Speaker 5>one of the I can give some of the communication

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<v Speaker 5>tips that are really helpful for a lot of couples.

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<v Speaker 3>If that's yeah, I think that would be I think

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<v Speaker 3>it'll be useful.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So in the couple's Therapy one oh one Communication Tips.

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<v Speaker 5>One of the most basic things that I tell people

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<v Speaker 5>is that we want to separate conversations into two distinct types.

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<v Speaker 5>So one is an understanding conversation, where the goal is

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<v Speaker 5>to have each person feel a bit better understood as

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<v Speaker 5>a speaker and to have each listener understand a little

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<v Speaker 5>bit better. And so the goal of an understanding conversation

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<v Speaker 5>is to improve understanding. The second kind of conversation is

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<v Speaker 5>a problem solving conversation, where the goal is to solve

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<v Speaker 5>a problem or come to a decision together or negotiate something.

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<v Speaker 5>And that one is something that people just kind of understand.

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<v Speaker 5>And actually, when it comes to having new children, we

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<v Speaker 5>almost always want to do the problem solving, want to

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<v Speaker 5>fix it, Like we're exhausted. There's so many stressors we

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<v Speaker 5>need to figure out, like what the baby's going to eat,

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<v Speaker 5>who's going to take care of it? You know what

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<v Speaker 5>that rash is, And so we just drop into default

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<v Speaker 5>mode of like problem solving is what we need to do.

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<v Speaker 5>But often what we what would actually be more effective

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<v Speaker 5>is to do understanding first, and we want to separate

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<v Speaker 5>them out because when one person is trying to have

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<v Speaker 5>an understanding conversation of like, I'm super stressed out this

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<v Speaker 5>exema on the baby is really freaking me out because

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<v Speaker 5>I'm worried it's going to lead to something different, and

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<v Speaker 5>the other person steps in and says, well, you need

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<v Speaker 5>to call the doctor immediately, then the anxiety doesn't get addressed.

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<v Speaker 5>And so by making suret and really clarifying each person

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<v Speaker 5>what kind of a conversation do I want to have,

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<v Speaker 5>we can kind of align on the communication goals. And

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<v Speaker 5>when people are aligned on communication goals, I can think

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<v Speaker 5>of like it's a rowboat, Like you can row in

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<v Speaker 5>the same direction. If you're not aligned, you're rowing in

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<v Speaker 5>different directions and you're just kind of going in circles

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<v Speaker 5>and it's super frustrating for both people.

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<v Speaker 4>There's an interesting parallel to the kinds of conversations one

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<v Speaker 4>we'll eventually have with a teenager, where this distinction between like,

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<v Speaker 4>what are you hoping to get out of this conversation

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<v Speaker 4>and do you just want me to listen and hear

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<v Speaker 4>what you're saying, or do you want me to help

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<v Speaker 4>you fix it? Like, sometimes I will start conversations with

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<v Speaker 4>the teenager like is this a situation in which you're

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<v Speaker 4>looking for advice or do you just want me to

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<v Speaker 4>hear what you're saying, And by like voicing that at

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<v Speaker 4>the top, it's like, Okay, which conversation are we hoping

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<v Speaker 4>to have? Because if I'm trying to have the conversation

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<v Speaker 4>with my partner, I'm just like I'm so tired and

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<v Speaker 4>I'm exhausted, and the baby's pooping every twenty three times

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<v Speaker 4>in the middle of the night, and like I just

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<v Speaker 4>feel like crap, And you just want them to be like, wow, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>that's a lot of poop.

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<v Speaker 3>I hear that you.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't like that much poop, And then they're like, well,

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<v Speaker 4>here are some tips I read on the internet about

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<v Speaker 4>how to get your baby to poopless.

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's not home.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's so it feels invalidating for the person who

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<v Speaker 5>just wants the understanding. And so the common example that

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<v Speaker 5>I give to couples that I work with is if

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<v Speaker 5>I had a really crappy day in office and I

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<v Speaker 5>go home and I tell my husband, oh, I just

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<v Speaker 5>feel like I'm not a good therapist or not a

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<v Speaker 5>good researcher, not a good writer. And he says, well,

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<v Speaker 5>you've been saying that a lot lately. Maybe you should

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<v Speaker 5>go get some more training or supervision or consultation. And

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<v Speaker 5>I was just looking for understanding of like, you poor thing,

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<v Speaker 5>but you're so great, I'm going to feel criticized, right,

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<v Speaker 5>And then I tell him, oh, you're such an unsupportive partner.

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<v Speaker 5>And he had come in trying to be helpful and

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<v Speaker 5>thoughtful and listening and responsive, and I'm telling him he's

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<v Speaker 5>a crappy partner. Now he feels criticized and invalidated. And

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<v Speaker 5>so here's this conversation where we both entered into this

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<v Speaker 5>space with good intentions, and both people are feeling really rotten.

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<v Speaker 5>And it is true, Emily, to your point that a

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<v Speaker 5>very similar kind of dynamic can happen with our kids,

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<v Speaker 5>It can happen with work colleagues, can happen with good

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<v Speaker 5>friends and family members. So this distinction of what kind

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<v Speaker 5>of a conversation do I want to have is one

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<v Speaker 5>that's really helpful in all sorts of relationships, and definitely

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<v Speaker 5>in our partnerships, just to have that sense of, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>if I know in advance, what kind of a conversation

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<v Speaker 5>I'm looking for. Can I ask for it from the

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<v Speaker 5>outset so that we don't get off on the wrong track.

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<v Speaker 5>Or if in the middle of a conversation, I'm noticing

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<v Speaker 5>that I'm feeling like this isn't going quite right and

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not aligning and I'm getting kind of frustrated, can

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<v Speaker 5>I sort of point out, Hey, I think I'm looking

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<v Speaker 5>for this kind of conversation, and you're maybe assuming that

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<v Speaker 5>I want that kind of conversation. Can we negotiate even

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<v Speaker 5>what kind of conversation we're having and maybe start in

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<v Speaker 5>one place, start by having an understanding conversation before we

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<v Speaker 5>move to the problem solving. And I will say, just

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<v Speaker 5>as a quick tip, it is almost always useful to

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<v Speaker 5>do the understanding conversation first before you do the problem solving,

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<v Speaker 5>even if it's very obvious that you want to do

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<v Speaker 5>the problem solving, even if it feels pretty straightforward, just

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<v Speaker 5>to do a quick little understanding, just so that you

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<v Speaker 5>make sure a you're both ready to solve a pro

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<v Speaker 5>that you're solving the same problem, or see that you're

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<v Speaker 5>solving the same parts of the same problem. Because often

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<v Speaker 5>problems that seem really obvious and simple have multiple parts,

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<v Speaker 5>and different parts matter to each of you. And so

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<v Speaker 5>if you can just sort of have that understanding piece

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<v Speaker 5>first so that you align on what it is and

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<v Speaker 5>how it is that you're going to do the problem solving,

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<v Speaker 5>that can make things go so much more smoothly.

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<v Speaker 4>Some of this is about practice and habit, and I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's you know, the sort of discussion about like

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<v Speaker 4>why would you do this before you have a baby.

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<v Speaker 4>There will be a moment after you have the baby

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<v Speaker 4>when you are tired, and it is not a time

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<v Speaker 4>that changing your habits and how you interact with someone

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<v Speaker 4>is cognitively challenging. And when we are asleep deprived, we

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<v Speaker 4>are not as up for cognitive challenges. And so this

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<v Speaker 4>sort of there's a little bit of a of a

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<v Speaker 4>kind of push. I would say, people say, well, everything

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<v Speaker 4>is going, everything's going fine, like we really like each other,

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<v Speaker 4>like our marriages is great.

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<v Speaker 3>But the investment in having.

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<v Speaker 4>A habit to address how to have harder conversations so

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<v Speaker 4>you are doing that before you are exhausted. I mean

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<v Speaker 4>that's part of the kind of pre almost like like

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<v Speaker 4>pre work, right, that's the pre work before the meeting

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<v Speaker 4>or you do, it's the pre read you should have.

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<v Speaker 5>The pre read it's the pre baby prep. No, but

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<v Speaker 5>it's true. I think establishing habits that you're going to

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<v Speaker 5>do your best to sustain, recognizing that there will be

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<v Speaker 5>some messiness and some adjustment that is needed once a

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<v Speaker 5>baby enters the scene is so important. And in fact,

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<v Speaker 5>one of the studies that I think is really cool

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<v Speaker 5>that was conducted by a researcher by the name of

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<v Speaker 5>Brian Doss compared intervention that was focused on preparing people

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<v Speaker 5>for parenting together and uh intervention that was really just

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<v Speaker 5>relationship strengthening, and they both helped people to make the

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<v Speaker 5>transition from being partners to being co parents. So however

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<v Speaker 5>you're doing it, investing in those bits of maintaining a

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<v Speaker 5>relationship can really make you more resilient in that transition,

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<v Speaker 5>because you are going to be more fatigue, you are

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<v Speaker 5>going to be more stressed out. And so if you

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<v Speaker 5>have these kind of and there's a number of ways

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<v Speaker 5>to do it. I mean, one of the things that

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<v Speaker 5>I really encourage people to do is to have two

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<v Speaker 5>real brief appointments blocked on your calendar, and one is

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<v Speaker 5>to do like a marital check in, like how are

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<v Speaker 5>we doing, how are you doing, what do we need

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<v Speaker 5>to talk about, what's come up, so that you just

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<v Speaker 5>have a time in your week. And there's a couple

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<v Speaker 5>of reasons for this. One is that it's it's you

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<v Speaker 5>should do.

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<v Speaker 4>This always or after you have kids, like they just

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<v Speaker 4>generally you should have always should always have a marital

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<v Speaker 4>check in.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so you should always have a marital check in,

401
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<v Speaker 5>and you should always have a time on your calendar

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<v Speaker 5>that is time to just enjoy one another, and you know,

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<v Speaker 5>the enjoy one another after you have babies, maybe like

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<v Speaker 5>you know, ten minutes before you pass out or you know,

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<v Speaker 5>five minutes before you have to run in different directions

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<v Speaker 5>in the morning. But again, it's like the habit of like,

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<v Speaker 5>let's connect, let's see each other as human beings who

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<v Speaker 5>I like, you know ideally, who like each other ideally.

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<v Speaker 5>And the marital check in can be this opportunity or

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<v Speaker 5>relationship check in if you're not married, can just be

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<v Speaker 5>an opportunity to talk about things that have been going

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<v Speaker 5>on and to bring your best selves to have that conversation,

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<v Speaker 5>because otherwise what happens is people wait until you know

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<v Speaker 5>the lid is about to come off the boiling pot,

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<v Speaker 5>and at that point you know, either you're tired or

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<v Speaker 5>your emotions have hijacked your brain and you're not going

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<v Speaker 5>to be talking rationally. You're going to say things that

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<v Speaker 5>you don't mean. The alternative can also happen where people

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<v Speaker 5>don't want to talk about things, and so they avoid, avoid, avoid,

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<v Speaker 5>and resentment grows. And in part it's because you don't

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<v Speaker 5>want to rock the boat, or because things are already

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<v Speaker 5>so bad you don't want them to really fall apart.

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<v Speaker 5>And so having this habit of every week we do

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<v Speaker 5>a check in, there's a beginning to the check in,

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<v Speaker 5>there's an end, and then we try to pivot and

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00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.840
<v Speaker 5>go do other things just gives you an opportunity to

427
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.560
<v Speaker 5>not miss out on talking about things before it hits

428
00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:02.280
<v Speaker 5>resent or to talk about it before it hits the

429
00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:04.480
<v Speaker 5>boiling point in a more thoughtful way.

430
00:22:05.080 --> 00:22:07.640
<v Speaker 4>And you would separate like the nice time we spent

431
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.240
<v Speaker 4>together from the we're doing a marital check in. We

432
00:22:10.280 --> 00:22:13.800
<v Speaker 4>have like two appointments, the hard conversation or put you know,

433
00:22:13.840 --> 00:22:15.240
<v Speaker 4>the check in appointment and the date.

434
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.040
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I would, although you know I recognize and you

435
00:22:20.080 --> 00:22:23.120
<v Speaker 5>know I'm a mother of three, so time is limited.

436
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:27.160
<v Speaker 5>So there's a couple reasons for it, you know. One

437
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:31.760
<v Speaker 5>is that we sometimes like get stuck in logistics mode

438
00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:33.440
<v Speaker 5>and then we run out of time to have fun,

439
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.720
<v Speaker 5>and I think or we are having fun and we

440
00:22:36.760 --> 00:22:39.159
<v Speaker 5>don't really want to talk about logistics. The other is,

441
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.639
<v Speaker 5>if you're talking about something that's difficult, it can be

442
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.480
<v Speaker 5>hard to pivot to just enjoying one another that said,

443
00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:47.520
<v Speaker 5>I do think it's nice to if you can, in

444
00:22:47.560 --> 00:22:50.320
<v Speaker 5>your marital check in, try to finish with something positive

445
00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:52.840
<v Speaker 5>of life. But here's something that I really appreciate, so

446
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:54.520
<v Speaker 5>that you can do that pivot in a way that

447
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.000
<v Speaker 5>feels positive and you don't kind of drag some of

448
00:22:57.040 --> 00:23:00.000
<v Speaker 5>the negativity along with you.

449
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.200
<v Speaker 4>One of the questions I get a lot from people,

450
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.600
<v Speaker 4>you know, when you when you talk about this, it

451
00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:09.600
<v Speaker 4>makes a lot of sense, and I think probably there

452
00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:12.480
<v Speaker 4>are many people who are like, oh, that sounds that

453
00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:16.760
<v Speaker 4>sounds reasonable. And one of the pieces of feedback that

454
00:23:16.840 --> 00:23:19.879
<v Speaker 4>I get from when I talk about these related issues,

455
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.720
<v Speaker 4>when people talk about the work that you've done, is like,

456
00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:25.680
<v Speaker 4>my partner will not want to do this, Like I

457
00:23:26.600 --> 00:23:28.679
<v Speaker 4>don't think I can get my partner to do this.

458
00:23:28.760 --> 00:23:32.560
<v Speaker 4>And actually, something someone told me once was, you know,

459
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.280
<v Speaker 4>these kind of tools are great if you like your partner,

460
00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:40.080
<v Speaker 4>But I don't like my partner, and so I could

461
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.840
<v Speaker 4>never get them to do this, and I in some

462
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:45.240
<v Speaker 4>ways I thought, of course, if you're already aligned with

463
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:46.560
<v Speaker 4>your partner, then.

464
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.800
<v Speaker 3>Maybe you don't have to do this as much.

465
00:23:49.840 --> 00:23:51.960
<v Speaker 4>Somehow this feels like it would be most useful when

466
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.560
<v Speaker 4>one person is resistant. But you know, what do you

467
00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:56.680
<v Speaker 4>tell people if they say, you know, I just can't

468
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.120
<v Speaker 4>get my partner to even engage with this kind of questions,

469
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.640
<v Speaker 4>meaning for a marital checkup, talking about our relationship going

470
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:04.320
<v Speaker 4>to therapy.

471
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:05.639
<v Speaker 3>They're not on it.

472
00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:11.000
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean so one of the interesting research findings

473
00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:14.280
<v Speaker 5>is that it takes couples on average six years from

474
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.919
<v Speaker 5>the start of identifying like a significant problem before they

475
00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:20.119
<v Speaker 5>enter into couple's therapy. And that's not surprising a because

476
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.840
<v Speaker 5>people don't have a whole lot of time or resources,

477
00:24:23.800 --> 00:24:26.720
<v Speaker 5>and also there's usually half of a couple that isn't

478
00:24:26.800 --> 00:24:30.600
<v Speaker 5>particularly interested in couples therapy. But once people get there,

479
00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:33.240
<v Speaker 5>there's so much value. And so I do think it's

480
00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:37.600
<v Speaker 5>helpful to just talk about, like what to set approach goals.

481
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:39.960
<v Speaker 5>So one of the things that we know from psychological

482
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.960
<v Speaker 5>research is that when we set avoid in schools of like,

483
00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:46.440
<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm really unhappy and I don't want to leave.

484
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.119
<v Speaker 5>I don't want to divorce you, so you better go

485
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.640
<v Speaker 5>to couple's therapy with me is not a particularly warm invite, right.

486
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.919
<v Speaker 5>It feels controlling, It feels like an ultimatum. It doesn't

487
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.920
<v Speaker 5>feel particularly appealing to most people to receive an inmity

488
00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:02.840
<v Speaker 5>in that way, whereas if you say, you know, we've

489
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:05.200
<v Speaker 5>been having a hard time and what I'd really love

490
00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:07.480
<v Speaker 5>to do is get back to a place where we

491
00:25:07.520 --> 00:25:11.080
<v Speaker 5>feel good around each other, that feels more appealing to

492
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.000
<v Speaker 5>most people. The other thing, and I wrote a piece

493
00:25:14.040 --> 00:25:17.080
<v Speaker 5>about this for Parent Data as well, is that it

494
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:20.800
<v Speaker 5>can often feel like one the person who wants to

495
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.679
<v Speaker 5>have this kind of a check in is really in

496
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:29.280
<v Speaker 5>an agency undermining position of like, you need to do this, right,

497
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:31.359
<v Speaker 5>I'm so unhappy you need to do this. And what

498
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.600
<v Speaker 5>happens when we are told that we absolutely have to

499
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.600
<v Speaker 5>do something, whether it's by our parents, so this is

500
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.200
<v Speaker 5>also good advice for our teens and toddlers or by

501
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.040
<v Speaker 5>our partners, is that there's this thing that psychologists calls

502
00:25:44.080 --> 00:25:47.520
<v Speaker 5>psychological reactants, which is we don't want other people to

503
00:25:47.520 --> 00:25:49.520
<v Speaker 5>tell us what to do. We want to have agency.

504
00:25:49.560 --> 00:25:53.679
<v Speaker 5>This is a fundamental human drive. And so if we

505
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:55.760
<v Speaker 5>invite our partner and we do it in a way

506
00:25:55.800 --> 00:25:59.720
<v Speaker 5>that really respects their autonomy, that sort of encourages them

507
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:01.919
<v Speaker 5>to have agency. It's also a lot more likely. So,

508
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.000
<v Speaker 5>for example, I have been unhappy in this relationship, I

509
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.439
<v Speaker 5>would like to do something, whether it's couple's therapy or

510
00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:12.680
<v Speaker 5>just dedicating sometime each week to working on our relationship.

511
00:26:13.840 --> 00:26:16.080
<v Speaker 5>What do you think? How would you want to do it?

512
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.600
<v Speaker 5>Are there ways that would be more appealing to you

513
00:26:18.760 --> 00:26:20.639
<v Speaker 5>and other ways that would be less appealing to you.

514
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.520
<v Speaker 5>I have lots of ideas. Here are some What kind

515
00:26:23.560 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 5>of ideas do you have that would help us to

516
00:26:26.040 --> 00:26:29.560
<v Speaker 5>work on this relationship that seems important to both of us,

517
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.000
<v Speaker 5>So to make it positive, to give the other person agency,

518
00:26:33.080 --> 00:26:37.119
<v Speaker 5>and to offer lots of different options so that people

519
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.040
<v Speaker 5>don't feel backed into a corner. Because when we feel

520
00:26:39.040 --> 00:26:40.960
<v Speaker 5>backed into a corner, that's when we get resistant.

521
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.800
<v Speaker 4>So if we think about the kind of pieces of

522
00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:51.880
<v Speaker 4>what sort of hard after childbirth, there's the initial kind

523
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.760
<v Speaker 4>of sleep deprivation newborn stage, which is I think hard,

524
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:01.399
<v Speaker 4>partly just because you're tired, but is also somewhat temporary,

525
00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:05.120
<v Speaker 4>and I think there are some practical things that one

526
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.960
<v Speaker 4>can do that might help that part of this. Then

527
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:14.280
<v Speaker 4>there's this other piece, which continues basically forever, where you

528
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:16.639
<v Speaker 4>may not agree with your partner about how to parent,

529
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:21.840
<v Speaker 4>and I think that's an ongoing source of tension, and

530
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:25.120
<v Speaker 4>it's a place where often like this is the thing

531
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.080
<v Speaker 4>we care most about in the world, and neither of

532
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:29.320
<v Speaker 4>us have any idea.

533
00:27:29.080 --> 00:27:29.640
<v Speaker 3>What we're doing.

534
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:31.879
<v Speaker 1>That's like a sort of characteristic of parenting.

535
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.439
<v Speaker 4>Like I could not be more engaged in wanting to

536
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.159
<v Speaker 4>do this right, and I just am lost in a

537
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.000
<v Speaker 4>sea of the Internet and whatever, and I.

538
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:42.479
<v Speaker 3>Don't know the right choice.

539
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.800
<v Speaker 4>And if you don't agree with me, if we're both

540
00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:48.240
<v Speaker 4>just swimming in an aimless pool of you know, information,

541
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 4>maybe we can kind of come together to put something.

542
00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:52.360
<v Speaker 4>But if I have a strong idea of come to

543
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:54.960
<v Speaker 4>sort of think the right way to discipline is X,

544
00:27:55.520 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 4>and my partner's idea is the right way to a

545
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.399
<v Speaker 4>discipline is why.

546
00:27:58.560 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Speaker 3>And like those are not the same.

547
00:28:01.760 --> 00:28:03.760
<v Speaker 4>Is there a more focused way we could try to

548
00:28:03.800 --> 00:28:09.040
<v Speaker 4>work through that kind of specific conflict as opposed to

549
00:28:09.080 --> 00:28:11.760
<v Speaker 4>the general like we're tired and everybody feels busy.

550
00:28:11.840 --> 00:28:12.320
<v Speaker 3>Conflict.

551
00:28:12.760 --> 00:28:14.800
<v Speaker 5>Yes, So it's a great question, and I just I

552
00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:18.640
<v Speaker 5>will say every time I think about those early years.

553
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:20.160
<v Speaker 5>So I have three kids, so I went through early

554
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.639
<v Speaker 5>years three times. I was thinking, I don't even remember

555
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:25.680
<v Speaker 5>what I was fighting about with my husband at three am.

556
00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:28.280
<v Speaker 5>I just knew that he was wrong and I was furious.

557
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.959
<v Speaker 4>There was definitely a rock and play sleeper fight that

558
00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:34.480
<v Speaker 4>I'm still pretty mad about, but I don't remember who

559
00:28:34.560 --> 00:28:37.840
<v Speaker 4>was on what side, or that thing was eventually recalled.

560
00:28:37.840 --> 00:28:39.160
<v Speaker 4>I don't think that was the source of but I'm

561
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.720
<v Speaker 4>definitely I'm still pretty mad.

562
00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:45.040
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, holding resentment totally, totally. Yeah, those middle of the

563
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.560
<v Speaker 5>night fights, It's hard to remember the details, but oh

564
00:28:48.600 --> 00:28:52.800
<v Speaker 5>there was fury anyway. But to your point that you

565
00:28:52.800 --> 00:28:56.480
<v Speaker 5>know we care the most, I don't want to say

566
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.360
<v Speaker 5>we care the most. Who knows, but like, we care

567
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.120
<v Speaker 5>a whole lot about our kids, and often so to

568
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.200
<v Speaker 5>our partners. We hope, and we don't always see eye

569
00:29:04.280 --> 00:29:07.800
<v Speaker 5>to eye, and that's kind of the nature of parenting

570
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.400
<v Speaker 5>for everyone, because we don't partner up with ourselves, so

571
00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.080
<v Speaker 5>invariably we will have differences, and sometimes the differences are

572
00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:18.000
<v Speaker 5>small enough that it's not so difficult to bridge them.

573
00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:20.560
<v Speaker 5>But sometimes the differences are really big and A common

574
00:29:20.600 --> 00:29:22.560
<v Speaker 5>one that I see, and this is kind of a

575
00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:24.400
<v Speaker 5>broad difference, but I think it comes up in a

576
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:26.360
<v Speaker 5>lot of ways, is like you have one parent who's

577
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.400
<v Speaker 5>really more into like discipline, like we need to set

578
00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:32.960
<v Speaker 5>for boundaries and say no, and you know, really invite

579
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.600
<v Speaker 5>our children to know that there's like a hierarchy and

580
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.000
<v Speaker 5>there's you know, respect needs to be important and following

581
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.040
<v Speaker 5>the rules needs to be important. And then one parent

582
00:29:41.080 --> 00:29:43.640
<v Speaker 5>who leads with like warmth and love, who really like,

583
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.760
<v Speaker 5>at the end of the day, all that really matters

584
00:29:45.800 --> 00:29:48.840
<v Speaker 5>to me is that my child feels connected and accepted

585
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.520
<v Speaker 5>and loved in this unconditional way. And so you can

586
00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:55.480
<v Speaker 5>have these differences that really bump up against one another

587
00:29:55.520 --> 00:29:58.080
<v Speaker 5>and lots of different situations like it could be sleep training,

588
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:01.280
<v Speaker 5>it could be body training, it could be you know,

589
00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:03.920
<v Speaker 5>the teenager didn't do their homework, and how do you

590
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.480
<v Speaker 5>respond to that. So one of the things that I

591
00:30:07.520 --> 00:30:10.080
<v Speaker 5>think is important is to start with an understanding conversation

592
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.120
<v Speaker 5>before you ever get to problem solving, to really appreciate

593
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:16.920
<v Speaker 5>like why it's important to each person and to really

594
00:30:17.040 --> 00:30:20.160
<v Speaker 5>try in the listener mode of hearing your partner explain

595
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.000
<v Speaker 5>why whatever the way that they prefer to do is

596
00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:25.200
<v Speaker 5>important to them, why that matters to them, Like what

597
00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:27.240
<v Speaker 5>is the function of that? And try as hard as

598
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.840
<v Speaker 5>you can to listen with an open mind. Because the

599
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.880
<v Speaker 5>next thing that I'll say that I know feels untrue

600
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:34.600
<v Speaker 5>when you're sort of in the midst of a fight

601
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:37.880
<v Speaker 5>with somebody who you disagree with, is that the differences

602
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.120
<v Speaker 5>between the two of you are probably more of a

603
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:43.080
<v Speaker 5>strength than you realize. And the example that I that

604
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.800
<v Speaker 5>I gave of the disciplining versus warmth really gets born

605
00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:50.080
<v Speaker 5>out in the literature on rearing children, which is, you know,

606
00:30:50.120 --> 00:30:52.920
<v Speaker 5>it's not great to be an authoritarian parent, and it's

607
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:54.640
<v Speaker 5>not great to be a permissive parent. So if you

608
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.280
<v Speaker 5>have somebody who leads extremely with discipline, that's more authoritarian,

609
00:30:58.360 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 5>and if you have somebody who leads on the extra

610
00:31:00.040 --> 00:31:03.200
<v Speaker 5>damside with love, that can really equate to permissiveness. And

611
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.840
<v Speaker 5>what we know is the best kind of parenting is

612
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.760
<v Speaker 5>this combined authoritative like a lot of discipline and a

613
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:11.680
<v Speaker 5>lot of love the both. And so if you have

614
00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:14.880
<v Speaker 5>a set of parents that leans to one side each

615
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.400
<v Speaker 5>each partner leans heavily to one side. Actually together, if

616
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 5>they can come together, that's like the best way to

617
00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:24.440
<v Speaker 5>do it. And that's often the case, is that the

618
00:31:24.560 --> 00:31:27.959
<v Speaker 5>differences that exist between the two of you, they feel

619
00:31:28.080 --> 00:31:31.480
<v Speaker 5>like they're in opposition, but actually they're probably quite complimentary.

620
00:31:31.600 --> 00:31:33.239
<v Speaker 5>And so if you can get to that place of

621
00:31:33.280 --> 00:31:35.840
<v Speaker 5>seeing you know, the way that you do it really

622
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:38.240
<v Speaker 5>drives me crazy, but actually it's a nice counterbalance for

623
00:31:38.280 --> 00:31:40.280
<v Speaker 5>the way that I might do it. And can we

624
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.080
<v Speaker 5>rather than pull to the polls away from each other,

625
00:31:44.120 --> 00:31:46.479
<v Speaker 5>can we come together in a way that takes the

626
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.320
<v Speaker 5>best of each side. And that is a hard thing

627
00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:50.880
<v Speaker 5>to do when you're in the fight. But if you

628
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.640
<v Speaker 5>can sort of calm your a magdalah, get to a

629
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.520
<v Speaker 5>place where you're being able to be more open and

630
00:31:56.560 --> 00:32:00.720
<v Speaker 5>receptive to how somebody does things differently and invite them

631
00:32:00.840 --> 00:32:03.760
<v Speaker 5>right as an invitation with lots of options to do

632
00:32:03.800 --> 00:32:06.040
<v Speaker 5>the same with you, so that you can pull the

633
00:32:06.040 --> 00:32:10.560
<v Speaker 5>best from each perspective, each approach, that can really land

634
00:32:10.600 --> 00:32:13.400
<v Speaker 5>you in a much stronger healthier place relationally but also

635
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:14.160
<v Speaker 5>as parents.

636
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.120
<v Speaker 1>I like that it seems hard, it's hard to do.

637
00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:23.840
<v Speaker 5>In the moment. Sometimes it's easier with a therapist in

638
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:42.440
<v Speaker 5>the office.

639
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.680
<v Speaker 4>More parent data, including a lightning round about common relationship

640
00:32:37.760 --> 00:32:54.520
<v Speaker 4>challenges and how to overcome them after the break. So, yeah,

641
00:32:54.600 --> 00:32:56.360
<v Speaker 4>we're going to do a lightning round at the end,

642
00:32:56.560 --> 00:32:59.120
<v Speaker 4>which I'm guessing will not be as lightning as I

643
00:32:59.120 --> 00:32:59.960
<v Speaker 4>always hope.

644
00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:01.680
<v Speaker 3>But before we.

645
00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:04.040
<v Speaker 4>Do that, someone comes and they say, you know, I'm

646
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:05.280
<v Speaker 4>seven months pregnant.

647
00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:06.480
<v Speaker 3>It's our first kid.

648
00:33:07.520 --> 00:33:10.479
<v Speaker 4>I want you to tell me, like the three or

649
00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:16.480
<v Speaker 4>four things I should do now to prepare such that

650
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.920
<v Speaker 4>I have the best chance of not ending up in

651
00:33:20.800 --> 00:33:23.160
<v Speaker 4>a lot of conflict with my partner post kid.

652
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.080
<v Speaker 5>Well, some of the things are our habits that we

653
00:33:29.280 --> 00:33:33.840
<v Speaker 5>already talked about. So one is start a practice of

654
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.840
<v Speaker 5>having a relationship check in once a week. It doesn't

655
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 5>have to be too long. It can be, you know,

656
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:44.400
<v Speaker 5>fifteen minutes if there's nothing going on, then reinforce what's

657
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:48.320
<v Speaker 5>going well, that's great. And then one time per week

658
00:33:48.360 --> 00:33:51.520
<v Speaker 5>where you do something that is fun that is just

659
00:33:51.800 --> 00:33:55.520
<v Speaker 5>you guys enjoying one another. The second thing I'll say

660
00:33:55.560 --> 00:33:58.600
<v Speaker 5>is create a network of support. So one of the

661
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 5>really important pieces of science that I think doesn't get

662
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.200
<v Speaker 5>talked about enough. Although Emily I'm so grateful that you

663
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.280
<v Speaker 5>talk about it is like this idea of alloparenting. We

664
00:34:06.320 --> 00:34:10.359
<v Speaker 5>are not actually evolved to rear children alone. We are

665
00:34:10.600 --> 00:34:13.560
<v Speaker 5>evolved to rear children in community. And so you have

666
00:34:13.680 --> 00:34:16.520
<v Speaker 5>your partner, but two people is not enough to rear children.

667
00:34:16.560 --> 00:34:19.800
<v Speaker 5>They are real time and energy suckers, those little suckers.

668
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.480
<v Speaker 5>And they're awesome, they're beautiful, we love them. They are exhausting.

669
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.040
<v Speaker 5>And so as much as you can create a support network,

670
00:34:27.120 --> 00:34:30.200
<v Speaker 5>join a class even in advance of, you know, people

671
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.359
<v Speaker 5>preparing to have babies, because then you know, if you

672
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:35.040
<v Speaker 5>do around the same time, then you'll have a friend

673
00:34:35.080 --> 00:34:37.680
<v Speaker 5>in the middle of the night to text with while

674
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:40.280
<v Speaker 5>you're nursing or feeding the baby or changing their diaper.

675
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.440
<v Speaker 5>And I will say, just as somebody who had children

676
00:34:44.600 --> 00:34:47.400
<v Speaker 5>very far away from extended family, that this is possible

677
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.160
<v Speaker 5>to do even if you don't have family nearby, and

678
00:34:50.200 --> 00:34:54.160
<v Speaker 5>it's important to do just for sanity's sake. And you know,

679
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.759
<v Speaker 5>professional caregivers like daycares like those are all great resources

680
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:02.399
<v Speaker 5>to spiritual classes, spiritual communities classes. So there's so many

681
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.840
<v Speaker 5>different ways to really extend your social support network. And

682
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:08.239
<v Speaker 5>then the third thing, and this is something I write

683
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.239
<v Speaker 5>about in my book about working parenthood is try to

684
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.600
<v Speaker 5>think about the things that are less important that you're

685
00:35:13.640 --> 00:35:16.880
<v Speaker 5>willing to do less of during the more intense times

686
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.480
<v Speaker 5>in the early months of parenting. So this is the

687
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.719
<v Speaker 5>idea of subtracting. So our temptation as humans and as

688
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:24.920
<v Speaker 5>parents is like, add more more and more stuff to

689
00:35:25.120 --> 00:35:29.200
<v Speaker 5>my schedule, to my closet, to you know, enrich myself.

690
00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:32.200
<v Speaker 5>But it is a very taxing thing to have a

691
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:36.279
<v Speaker 5>very young baby and think about where you can let

692
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.640
<v Speaker 5>go a little bit cleaning your house, you know, stop

693
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:42.520
<v Speaker 5>doing regular meetings that are not important. What can you

694
00:35:42.560 --> 00:35:44.239
<v Speaker 5>give on just to give yourself a little bit more

695
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.160
<v Speaker 5>time to take a nap or stare at a wall,

696
00:35:46.680 --> 00:35:50.600
<v Speaker 5>or you know, get a little bit bit of a break.

697
00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:53.440
<v Speaker 5>Because it is so taxing, and all of those things

698
00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.200
<v Speaker 5>that are good for our mental health that sort of

699
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.920
<v Speaker 5>reduce the pressure on us as individuals can also be

700
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.360
<v Speaker 5>good for our relationship. We want to nurture our relationship.

701
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:05.040
<v Speaker 5>In order to do that, we need to nurture ourselves. Okay,

702
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:07.600
<v Speaker 5>you ready for the lightning around I am, but can

703
00:36:07.640 --> 00:36:09.799
<v Speaker 5>I can I pause and ask you a question? Is

704
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:14.319
<v Speaker 5>just totally wondering because what differences exist between you and

705
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:16.239
<v Speaker 5>your husband that you've had to navigate and how did

706
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:21.439
<v Speaker 5>you navigate those? Listeners are wanting to know, Emily, So.

707
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:27.120
<v Speaker 4>My husband is more is probably stricter than I am.

708
00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:36.240
<v Speaker 4>He's much better at holding a consistent line. And that's

709
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.640
<v Speaker 4>something that we I think have sort of come come

710
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:44.280
<v Speaker 4>together on. But it's still true that like, I'm much more,

711
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.520
<v Speaker 4>I'm much more susceptible to whining and to you know,

712
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.440
<v Speaker 4>like giving in and feeling sort.

713
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Of bad for various things.

714
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:56.200
<v Speaker 4>And we've kind of we've and I think part of

715
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.560
<v Speaker 4>what happens there is like then I give too much

716
00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:02.040
<v Speaker 4>of myself And he's like, why did you give in

717
00:37:02.080 --> 00:37:02.399
<v Speaker 4>on that?

718
00:37:02.520 --> 00:37:02.879
<v Speaker 3>Like that?

719
00:37:03.160 --> 00:37:06.320
<v Speaker 4>You know you need more, You would have more energy

720
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:08.040
<v Speaker 4>if you hadn't given and on that, and there was

721
00:37:08.080 --> 00:37:10.279
<v Speaker 4>no reason to give in on that. And I think

722
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.920
<v Speaker 4>sort of navigating that and figuring out like how much

723
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.040
<v Speaker 4>am I doing because I want to?

724
00:37:16.080 --> 00:37:17.240
<v Speaker 3>And how much am I doing.

725
00:37:17.080 --> 00:37:21.520
<v Speaker 4>Because I I think we should And then therefore I

726
00:37:21.520 --> 00:37:24.120
<v Speaker 4>think we should split it. I think that's you know,

727
00:37:24.120 --> 00:37:26.360
<v Speaker 4>I would tell some of these people it's hard to

728
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:29.240
<v Speaker 4>have two people try to lean into their professional lives

729
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.840
<v Speaker 4>at the same time, and you know, just recognizing it.

730
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:34.799
<v Speaker 4>I think sometimes for me it's just good to recognize,

731
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.319
<v Speaker 4>like it's hard to have two people trying to kill

732
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.200
<v Speaker 4>it at work simultaneously and that that's just sometimes that's

733
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:42.600
<v Speaker 4>just hard.

734
00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:45.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's much easier because the kids are bigger now.

735
00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:48.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, oh yeah, but still, And I don't know if

736
00:37:48.160 --> 00:37:50.080
<v Speaker 5>you feel this way. Every time there's like a snow day,

737
00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:54.080
<v Speaker 5>it's like a race to between me and your husbands,

738
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:55.440
<v Speaker 5>like meetings.

739
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.160
<v Speaker 4>Thinking about last week's snow day, there was no snow,

740
00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:02.759
<v Speaker 4>but nevertheless there was also no school, and you know,

741
00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:06.160
<v Speaker 4>the and the the babysitter at the flu and so

742
00:38:06.560 --> 00:38:08.839
<v Speaker 4>like and he you know, my husband doesn't work, and

743
00:38:09.160 --> 00:38:11.440
<v Speaker 4>I work more locally than he does, and so you know,

744
00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:15.439
<v Speaker 4>splitting that up is just like one of my very

745
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.880
<v Speaker 4>close friends when we had our first kid, she told me, like,

746
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:23.160
<v Speaker 4>the most important thing is to decide on, like categorically,

747
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:25.640
<v Speaker 4>who's going to take over if the nanny is sick

748
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.480
<v Speaker 4>on like, and so think in advance about like what

749
00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:32.319
<v Speaker 4>are the sets of things that are most that are

750
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.400
<v Speaker 4>sort of taking precedent, So like we both teach, and

751
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:36.560
<v Speaker 4>so there was this sort of idea like, okay, if

752
00:38:36.560 --> 00:38:39.160
<v Speaker 4>you are teaching, that wins, and like you have to

753
00:38:39.160 --> 00:38:41.439
<v Speaker 4>be in the classroom and so the other person has

754
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.799
<v Speaker 4>to drop things, and that's continued to be something I

755
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.359
<v Speaker 4>think is pretty important is to just decide if you're

756
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:48.680
<v Speaker 4>both going to have a job, like which pieces of

757
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:49.520
<v Speaker 4>the job.

758
00:38:49.640 --> 00:38:50.280
<v Speaker 3>Are more important.

759
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.720
<v Speaker 1>Because in the morning, everybody's meetings are the most important.

760
00:38:53.560 --> 00:38:56.359
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. But there are

761
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.400
<v Speaker 5>days where you probably both have to teach. There are

762
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:00.680
<v Speaker 5>days where yeah.

763
00:39:00.520 --> 00:39:02.680
<v Speaker 4>It's just and then my kids are watching television in

764
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:04.040
<v Speaker 4>the back of my classroom.

765
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:08.359
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. And I actually think that that's an important thing

766
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.719
<v Speaker 5>for parents of kids of any age, that when you

767
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.799
<v Speaker 5>neglect your kids, it feels terrible in the moment, but

768
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:19.359
<v Speaker 5>often they're fine, Like usually they're in a place where

769
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:23.319
<v Speaker 5>they're safe, or they're bored where they're safe and they're

770
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.879
<v Speaker 5>bored or they're safe and they're having a great time

771
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.120
<v Speaker 5>on a screen and you feel kind of guilty, but

772
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.719
<v Speaker 5>it's fine. And I think we're so hard on ourselves,

773
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.319
<v Speaker 5>so I think a whole lot of self compassion in

774
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:38.040
<v Speaker 5>those moments is useful. And then remembering that our kids

775
00:39:38.040 --> 00:39:40.120
<v Speaker 5>do not need to be entertained by us twenty four

776
00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:42.280
<v Speaker 5>to seven, and in fact, that's not very good for them.

777
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.360
<v Speaker 3>Right, That is so true.

778
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:47.839
<v Speaker 4>The other source of conflict in my house is the

779
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:52.600
<v Speaker 4>dishwasher because, like, I know, I talk about this a lot,

780
00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:55.640
<v Speaker 4>but like, my husband is really really good at loading

781
00:39:55.640 --> 00:39:58.359
<v Speaker 4>the dishwasher and he thinks a lot about it, and

782
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:01.640
<v Speaker 4>I don't care about loading the dishwasher and I just

783
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:04.240
<v Speaker 4>throw things in at random and.

784
00:40:05.600 --> 00:40:07.960
<v Speaker 3>He doesn't. He has to rearrange in them.

785
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.000
<v Speaker 5>So there's interesting research showing that dishwasher loading is one

786
00:40:13.040 --> 00:40:15.680
<v Speaker 5>of the common areas of conflict for couples. It's very funny.

787
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:17.680
<v Speaker 5>It comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room.

788
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.680
<v Speaker 5>There's often one person who's very disciplined about how a

789
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:26.239
<v Speaker 5>dishwasher gets loaded, and when like you who doesn't care

790
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:27.920
<v Speaker 5>as much and would like to just be efficient with

791
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:32.319
<v Speaker 5>their time, and it creates friction, and I think it's

792
00:40:32.520 --> 00:40:35.160
<v Speaker 5>it's there's this great line for one of my favorite

793
00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:37.319
<v Speaker 5>favorite marital researchers, because I'm the kind of person who

794
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.880
<v Speaker 5>has such things where the researcher says, most crimes of

795
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:43.640
<v Speaker 5>the heart are misdemeanors, and I always think about that

796
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:47.239
<v Speaker 5>of like the small things can really feel quite explosive.

797
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:51.000
<v Speaker 4>Somebody once, I posted a picture of my dishwasher once,

798
00:40:51.040 --> 00:40:53.280
<v Speaker 4>and somebody comment on Instagram.

799
00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:55.000
<v Speaker 1>In every marriage, there's one person.

800
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:57.359
<v Speaker 4>Who loads the dishwasher like a Swiss engineer and one

801
00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:59.399
<v Speaker 4>person who loads it like a raccoon on meth.

802
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:03.800
<v Speaker 3>And you're the second. That's true. On the second one.

803
00:41:04.640 --> 00:41:06.280
<v Speaker 5>Raccoon, that's awesome.

804
00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:10.480
<v Speaker 3>Uh Okay, here's some questions for you.

805
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:15.360
<v Speaker 4>How do I stop myself from micromanaging my partner's relationship

806
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.840
<v Speaker 4>with the baby like you're doing it wrong?

807
00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:22.279
<v Speaker 5>Well, I do think that some of the things that

808
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:26.279
<v Speaker 5>we talked about earlier pertain here in terms of when

809
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:29.920
<v Speaker 5>we try to micromanage, we're actually doing the opposite of

810
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:31.640
<v Speaker 5>what we intend to do. What we want to do

811
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:34.880
<v Speaker 5>is we want to protect relationships and make things better.

812
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.520
<v Speaker 5>But because of this idea of psychological reactans where people

813
00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 5>don't like to be controlled, we create more distance between

814
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.600
<v Speaker 5>us and the person who we are trying to control.

815
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.839
<v Speaker 5>We also create less influence. Right, the more we try

816
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.879
<v Speaker 5>to control, the less influence we have. And so by

817
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:56.319
<v Speaker 5>lightening up on the efforts to control and instead sort

818
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.000
<v Speaker 5>of saying you know it bothers me but of course

819
00:41:59.080 --> 00:42:01.319
<v Speaker 5>it's up to you. It's your call. This is like

820
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.799
<v Speaker 5>a good mantra. Ultimately it's your call, right. This recognition

821
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:09.200
<v Speaker 5>that every person has an agency true about our children too,

822
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.839
<v Speaker 5>and we have more influence when we honor that when

823
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:16.280
<v Speaker 5>we say it is your call. And there are probably

824
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.200
<v Speaker 5>some ways that that works for you that I'm not seeing.

825
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:21.960
<v Speaker 5>But can I tell you how it makes me feel?

826
00:42:22.040 --> 00:42:24.400
<v Speaker 5>Or can I tell you my concerns? And this is

827
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:28.440
<v Speaker 5>another strategy of asking permission to share your view, and

828
00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:32.239
<v Speaker 5>if the other person is willing to hear it and

829
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:35.440
<v Speaker 5>they say, sure, you can tell me, then it actually

830
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.120
<v Speaker 5>increases the likelihood that they'll be open to it. And

831
00:42:38.160 --> 00:42:40.520
<v Speaker 5>if they're not, then you get to save your breath.

832
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.799
<v Speaker 4>I also think I will just add something here, which

833
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.640
<v Speaker 4>is I think when you are especially early on, even

834
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:51.279
<v Speaker 4>very small things can seem like you must do them

835
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.880
<v Speaker 4>a particular way. And so what I like about that

836
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.440
<v Speaker 4>frame is I think some of the time, if you

837
00:42:56.520 --> 00:42:58.400
<v Speaker 4>get ready to say that and then you sort of

838
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.759
<v Speaker 4>say it in your head, like you know. A thing

839
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:04.400
<v Speaker 4>I feel really strongly about is that you use three

840
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:07.480
<v Speaker 4>wipes when you're you doing the diaper, and not too

841
00:43:08.080 --> 00:43:11.280
<v Speaker 4>when you sort of say that in your head, like, well, actually,

842
00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:14.200
<v Speaker 4>I can't really with a stray face say that out

843
00:43:14.200 --> 00:43:16.880
<v Speaker 4>loud to another person. I think it helps us recognize

844
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:20.239
<v Speaker 4>some things are important and do deserve saying like it's

845
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:22.279
<v Speaker 4>really important to me that our kids, you know, sit

846
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:23.200
<v Speaker 4>at the table if that's.

847
00:43:23.080 --> 00:43:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Really important to you, or it's really important to me.

848
00:43:25.080 --> 00:43:28.399
<v Speaker 3>That you know, we that our kid has a bath

849
00:43:28.520 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 3>or whatever.

850
00:43:29.080 --> 00:43:30.880
<v Speaker 4>Is the thing that some things might be very important

851
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.120
<v Speaker 4>to you and some things it cannot be.

852
00:43:33.160 --> 00:43:35.400
<v Speaker 1>Every hill is a hill that you most that you

853
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:36.000
<v Speaker 1>want to die on.

854
00:43:36.640 --> 00:43:41.839
<v Speaker 5>I think that point deserves extra emphasis because, especially in

855
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.480
<v Speaker 5>the early phases of parenting, when you have a teeny

856
00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:49.000
<v Speaker 5>tiny infant, everything feels so important. But if you're micromanaging

857
00:43:49.040 --> 00:43:52.120
<v Speaker 5>your partner on everything, you're really going to lose your

858
00:43:52.200 --> 00:43:55.080
<v Speaker 5>influence and your credibility. So you have to sort of

859
00:43:55.120 --> 00:43:58.120
<v Speaker 5>manage internally this dialogue of well, that's going to be

860
00:43:58.160 --> 00:43:59.680
<v Speaker 5>a problem, and that's going to be a problem. That's

861
00:43:59.680 --> 00:44:02.640
<v Speaker 5>going to be from so that the things that really

862
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:06.640
<v Speaker 5>matter can matter, because if everything matters, then nothing matters, right,

863
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.160
<v Speaker 5>It just turns into nagging, which is like the Charlie

864
00:44:09.200 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 5>Brown cartoon of like Wow, Wow, wow, and your partner's

865
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:14.400
<v Speaker 5>not going to hear anything other than my partner's really annoying.

866
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:16.160
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

867
00:44:17.080 --> 00:44:19.839
<v Speaker 4>So one of the things that comes up again sort

868
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.960
<v Speaker 4>of in very early parenting, particularly if one person is home,

869
00:44:24.040 --> 00:44:26.760
<v Speaker 4>like on leave, the question of you know, my partner

870
00:44:26.840 --> 00:44:29.040
<v Speaker 4>is at work. They come back every day they're exhausted

871
00:44:29.080 --> 00:44:31.520
<v Speaker 4>at the end of the day and it feels like, well,

872
00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:33.279
<v Speaker 4>they've been out working and I've just been here. But

873
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:35.840
<v Speaker 4>of course I'm also exhausted because babies are exhausting. And

874
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:40.399
<v Speaker 4>how do we navigate this first moment of you know,

875
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.359
<v Speaker 4>we are both very tired and feel that we are

876
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.839
<v Speaker 4>deserving of rest, but no rest is to be had.

877
00:44:46.680 --> 00:44:50.640
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, this is something to negotiate ahead of time, not

878
00:44:50.680 --> 00:44:53.120
<v Speaker 5>necessarily like before you have a baby, but like before

879
00:44:53.160 --> 00:44:56.920
<v Speaker 5>that moment arrives, because in that moment, everyone is feeling

880
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:00.920
<v Speaker 5>so depleted. And I think what's important to recognize is

881
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:05.839
<v Speaker 5>that our own pain feels bigger than the other person's pain,

882
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.400
<v Speaker 5>and we feel pretty certain in those moments that it

883
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:11.400
<v Speaker 5>is bigger, Right Like, if I've been with the baby

884
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:14.120
<v Speaker 5>all day, then I am pretty sure that my partner

885
00:45:14.160 --> 00:45:16.600
<v Speaker 5>who got to read emails from start to finish and

886
00:45:16.600 --> 00:45:19.520
<v Speaker 5>go to the bathroom alone. Has had an easier day,

887
00:45:19.560 --> 00:45:23.200
<v Speaker 5>But my partner may have had meeting after meeting with

888
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.319
<v Speaker 5>his crappy you know, micromanagy difficult boss and also is

889
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 5>sleep deprived and had to try to pretend that he

890
00:45:31.040 --> 00:45:35.120
<v Speaker 5>had all cylinders firing neurologically all day long, and all

891
00:45:35.160 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 5>he wants to do is come home and just like

892
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.200
<v Speaker 5>sit without somebody telling him what to do. And he

893
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:42.680
<v Speaker 5>feels like, you know, the baby napped, and so I

894
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:47.080
<v Speaker 5>had a break to myself. So if you are both

895
00:45:47.120 --> 00:45:50.080
<v Speaker 5>feeling in desperate need of a break, the reality is

896
00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:53.400
<v Speaker 5>you are both deserving of a break. So I think

897
00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:57.800
<v Speaker 5>trying to do some understanding conversation and some problem solving

898
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.359
<v Speaker 5>in advance of the moment, recognizing that that moment is

899
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:04.200
<v Speaker 5>really a difficult one for both people and that you're

900
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:08.200
<v Speaker 5>both absolutely you know, you come by it rightly. You

901
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.400
<v Speaker 5>both deserve a little bit of a break, and wondering

902
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:12.360
<v Speaker 5>how you can do that, And there's lots of different

903
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.279
<v Speaker 5>ways to problem solve that, Like you know, one is

904
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:17.640
<v Speaker 5>to outsource it, to actually get some help so that

905
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:20.120
<v Speaker 5>you both can get a break, maybe even at the

906
00:46:20.120 --> 00:46:22.480
<v Speaker 5>same time, maybe even together, Like it could just be

907
00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:25.239
<v Speaker 5>napping together, which is lovely if you can get it.

908
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:29.200
<v Speaker 5>But there could be other ways to problem solve it too,

909
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.799
<v Speaker 5>like you know, turn taking, so you know, perhaps the

910
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 5>partner who's coming home from work just stays in their

911
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:37.320
<v Speaker 5>car for fifteen minutes so that they can have some

912
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:39.480
<v Speaker 5>quiet time, and then when they come in they're ready

913
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.319
<v Speaker 5>to take the baby so that the partner who's been

914
00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:43.359
<v Speaker 5>home with the baby all day can get a well

915
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:48.280
<v Speaker 5>deserved break. This is a little bit later in life example,

916
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:50.920
<v Speaker 5>but my husband and I both really are desperate to

917
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:52.920
<v Speaker 5>get a little bit of work done on Sundays, and

918
00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:54.880
<v Speaker 5>so we divide the day. He gets an hour in

919
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.239
<v Speaker 5>the morning, I get an hour in the afternoon. It

920
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:59.560
<v Speaker 5>is like a precious hour for each of us and

921
00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:02.360
<v Speaker 5>we try to honor it and do that turn taking

922
00:47:02.560 --> 00:47:05.680
<v Speaker 5>with what with whoever doesn't have the work time, taking

923
00:47:05.680 --> 00:47:08.680
<v Speaker 5>the three kids for an hour away from the parent

924
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:11.759
<v Speaker 5>who's working. So there are ways to negotiate it, and

925
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:14.480
<v Speaker 5>there's ways to get help. It is hard to do

926
00:47:14.560 --> 00:47:16.560
<v Speaker 5>that kind of thinking in the moment where you're just

927
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.920
<v Speaker 5>desperate for the break, but in that moment, just to

928
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.680
<v Speaker 5>recognize that the other person is not a villain They're

929
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.520
<v Speaker 5>not trying to screw you over. They're probably also just

930
00:47:25.560 --> 00:47:29.080
<v Speaker 5>extremely fatigued and struggling as well.

931
00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:32.680
<v Speaker 4>Okay, so I want to end with sex as one does,

932
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:36.479
<v Speaker 4>because I think this is a sort of.

933
00:47:38.160 --> 00:47:39.920
<v Speaker 3>A piece of all.

934
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:43.000
<v Speaker 4>Of this which comes up a lot in early parenting,

935
00:47:43.040 --> 00:47:45.839
<v Speaker 4>which is, you know, initially for physical reasons and then

936
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:47.880
<v Speaker 4>for a bunch of other reasons, like people are not

937
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.479
<v Speaker 4>having sex as much, and we know parents have less sex,

938
00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 4>and we know that many people that everybody, but many

939
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:57.439
<v Speaker 4>people find that to be an important part of their

940
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.200
<v Speaker 4>relationship and important part of their life, of their life.

941
00:48:02.600 --> 00:48:07.520
<v Speaker 4>How does one navigate mismatched post baby sex drive.

942
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:12.480
<v Speaker 5>It's a really hard one for a lot of reasons.

943
00:48:12.520 --> 00:48:16.280
<v Speaker 5>And I think one of the things that can happen

944
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:20.239
<v Speaker 5>is that, for example, the partner who who had the

945
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.479
<v Speaker 5>child physically and is now nursing is just touched out

946
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:26.800
<v Speaker 5>and they're giving a lot of physical warmth and affection

947
00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:30.520
<v Speaker 5>to the baby, and the partner who did not give

948
00:48:30.560 --> 00:48:34.200
<v Speaker 5>birth and who is not nursing is feeling kind of neglected.

949
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.680
<v Speaker 5>And that isn't you know, the partner who had the

950
00:48:37.680 --> 00:48:41.279
<v Speaker 5>baby's fault. They're exhausted and depleted, but it is a

951
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:44.440
<v Speaker 5>very painful thing to feel neglected by your partner. And

952
00:48:44.560 --> 00:48:47.120
<v Speaker 5>so what can often happen is that the partner who

953
00:48:47.160 --> 00:48:50.400
<v Speaker 5>feels neglected is starts to sort of become more insistent,

954
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:52.880
<v Speaker 5>and then the partner who's nursing around the clock and

955
00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:57.239
<v Speaker 5>just is touched out feels like yet another thing. And

956
00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:59.840
<v Speaker 5>you can feed and clothe yourselves and yourself so I

957
00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:02.640
<v Speaker 5>don't really want to meet your needs right now, and

958
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:05.760
<v Speaker 5>you're being quite insensitive to me. So there's like this

959
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.839
<v Speaker 5>this real tension. So I think part of it is

960
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.719
<v Speaker 5>to just recognize that when one person is wanting more

961
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:17.120
<v Speaker 5>intimacy than the other, again, it's not a villainous, you know,

962
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:21.399
<v Speaker 5>malevolent desire. It's a desire to connect. You know, if

963
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.800
<v Speaker 5>people are familiar with this idea of the five love languages,

964
00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:26.279
<v Speaker 5>one of them is physical intimacy, and for a lot

965
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:29.640
<v Speaker 5>of people that is a really really important way to connect.

966
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:31.560
<v Speaker 5>And so if you have one person who's like that

967
00:49:31.600 --> 00:49:34.160
<v Speaker 5>one that love language is not on the table right

968
00:49:34.200 --> 00:49:37.719
<v Speaker 5>now because it's being consumed by the baby, then that

969
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.080
<v Speaker 5>can really leave the person who really wants to connect

970
00:49:40.080 --> 00:49:42.560
<v Speaker 5>that way feeling unloved. And that that's a very painful

971
00:49:42.600 --> 00:49:44.319
<v Speaker 5>place to be. So I think just starting from a

972
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:48.120
<v Speaker 5>compassionate understanding point of view, and then you can move

973
00:49:48.160 --> 00:49:52.160
<v Speaker 5>to some of the negotiations the problem solving, and the

974
00:49:52.160 --> 00:49:53.880
<v Speaker 5>problem solving is not easy. And so what I do

975
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.440
<v Speaker 5>want to say, and I say this so often in

976
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.480
<v Speaker 5>couples therapy, is that there is no good, simple solution

977
00:49:59.560 --> 00:50:02.160
<v Speaker 5>to a comp heated problem. And if you think that

978
00:50:02.200 --> 00:50:05.120
<v Speaker 5>there is one, if you anytime you hear yourself say

979
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.799
<v Speaker 5>if you would only just that's probably the preamble to

980
00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:11.880
<v Speaker 5>a simple solution. And it is probably a complicated problem.

981
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.640
<v Speaker 5>And your partner is probably going to resist that kind

982
00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:16.839
<v Speaker 5>of solution because usually it's something that they're supposed to

983
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:19.239
<v Speaker 5>do that doesn't feel so simple for them, even if

984
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.959
<v Speaker 5>it feels simple for you. And so I think trying

985
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.400
<v Speaker 5>to think in more nuanced ways of like, you have

986
00:50:24.600 --> 00:50:28.640
<v Speaker 5>needs and I have needs, and we're both really tapped

987
00:50:28.640 --> 00:50:30.960
<v Speaker 5>out and pulled in so many different directions, and so

988
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:33.640
<v Speaker 5>what's a way that we can get a little bit

989
00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:38.200
<v Speaker 5>better without expecting to resolve anything perfectly for the time being. So,

990
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:41.800
<v Speaker 5>how can I if it's physical affection that you're looking

991
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.319
<v Speaker 5>for and sex really doesn't feel on the table because

992
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:48.000
<v Speaker 5>I'm still healing from delivery. Then you know what other

993
00:50:48.160 --> 00:50:52.839
<v Speaker 5>kinds of ways of connecting physically would be positive, even

994
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.480
<v Speaker 5>if they're not exactly what you're looking for. If space

995
00:50:55.560 --> 00:50:57.799
<v Speaker 5>is what you need, and you know care and sort

996
00:50:57.800 --> 00:50:59.759
<v Speaker 5>of not touching is what you need, what's the way

997
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.239
<v Speaker 5>that I can can give you that without totally giving

998
00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:06.120
<v Speaker 5>up on our connection entirely, and so finding these sort

999
00:51:06.160 --> 00:51:10.839
<v Speaker 5>of middle ground solutions that are imperfect and that recognize

1000
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:14.600
<v Speaker 5>that it's a complicated problem to solve this difference in

1001
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:19.319
<v Speaker 5>desire to connect intimately and doing it really compassionately I

1002
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:21.640
<v Speaker 5>think is so important because the tendency, I think is

1003
00:51:21.640 --> 00:51:24.799
<v Speaker 5>to really vilify one another because we're feeling so hurt.

1004
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:27.120
<v Speaker 5>It's this like instinctual you hurt me, I'm going to

1005
00:51:27.200 --> 00:51:29.520
<v Speaker 5>hurt you back, and instead of coming together, which is

1006
00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:32.279
<v Speaker 5>what both people tend to want, it sort of pulls

1007
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:33.240
<v Speaker 5>you further apart.

1008
00:51:52.040 --> 00:51:54.279
<v Speaker 3>I love this, Yale. Thank you so much for being here.

1009
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.800
<v Speaker 4>I think there's a really a tremendous amount in this

1010
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:59.920
<v Speaker 4>conversation that people will benefit from.

1011
00:52:00.120 --> 00:52:02.319
<v Speaker 3>I always learned from you, so thanks for moving here.

1012
00:52:02.560 --> 00:52:04.279
<v Speaker 5>Thank you. I always love chatting with you.

1013
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.200
<v Speaker 4>Parent data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from

1014
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:19.560
<v Speaker 4>the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts

1015
00:52:19.560 --> 00:52:22.520
<v Speaker 4>on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram

1016
00:52:22.560 --> 00:52:25.840
<v Speaker 4>at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to support

1017
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:28.880
<v Speaker 4>the show, become a subscriber to the parent Data newsletter

1018
00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:32.400
<v Speaker 4>at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts on

1019
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.200
<v Speaker 4>everything to do with parents and data to help you

1020
00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:39.399
<v Speaker 4>make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, you can

1021
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:42.560
<v Speaker 4>read all of the l's contributions to parent Data, including

1022
00:52:42.560 --> 00:52:46.000
<v Speaker 4>her research on how to set boundaries with other adults. Spoiler,

1023
00:52:46.080 --> 00:52:48.239
<v Speaker 4>it's more productive than just cutting your mother in law

1024
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:52.560
<v Speaker 4>out of your life. At parentdata dot org, there are

1025
00:52:52.560 --> 00:52:54.040
<v Speaker 4>a lot of ways you can help people find out

1026
00:52:54.040 --> 00:52:57.160
<v Speaker 4>about us. Leave a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts,

1027
00:52:57.520 --> 00:52:59.839
<v Speaker 4>Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.

1028
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.520
<v Speaker 4>Debate your mother in law about the merits of something

1029
00:53:02.560 --> 00:53:04.920
<v Speaker 4>parents do now that is totally different.

1030
00:53:04.600 --> 00:53:05.279
<v Speaker 3>From what she did.

1031
00:53:06.080 --> 00:53:08.840
<v Speaker 4>Plose the story to your Instagram, debunking a panic headline

1032
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:11.480
<v Speaker 4>of your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too.

1033
00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:16.000
<v Speaker 4>Rite penelpe right, mam, We'll see you next time.