WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.880 Hey, it's Maria no Josa Latino USA. And as many 2 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:07.080 of you know, dear listener, here at Futuro Media, I'm 3 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.399 also the co host of our award winning show In 4 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:14.840 the Thick. It's a show where we talk politics unfiltered, 5 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:17.599 and so we want to share with you a recent 6 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:21.000 episode of In the Thick. It was actually very special 7 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.840 because I was sharing the mic with my dear In 8 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.080 the Thick co host and fellow journalist Paula Ramos. We 9 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.920 are talking all about her new book, it's called Defectors, 10 00:00:32.400 --> 00:00:35.280 the Rise of the Latino far Right and what it 11 00:00:35.360 --> 00:00:39.080 means for America and why is it that Latinos can 12 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:45.320 be particularly susceptible to extremist ideology. And you definitely want 13 00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:47.360 to listen to this because you're going to learn a lot. 14 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.600 So enjoy, dear listener, but also be sure to subscribe 15 00:00:51.680 --> 00:00:54.960 to In the Thick wherever you get your podcasts. Okay 16 00:00:55.240 --> 00:01:04.280 ai lisba. 17 00:01:00.440 --> 00:01:02.680 Yo, what up? This is Mariao Hosa. 18 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:04.959 Welcome to In the Thick and you know that just 19 00:01:05.080 --> 00:01:09.560 now this season it's me and my three fabulous co hosts, 20 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:14.560 doctor Christina Greer, Judy Reyes and the fabulous journalist Baula Ramos, 21 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.920 who joins me today it's just me and bau La Baula. So, 22 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:23.640 dear listener, Paula is an Emmy Award winning journalist. You know, 23 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.160 you see her a lot on MSNBC and Telemundo with 24 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.480 the fabulous hair. And Baula is having a moment because 25 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.600 her second book is out this week. It's called Defectors, 26 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.120 The Rise of the Latino Far Right. 27 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:37.640 And what it means for America. 28 00:01:37.800 --> 00:01:39.759 So in this episode, we're going to talk about her 29 00:01:39.800 --> 00:01:44.080 book about extremism in this country, about miss and disinformation 30 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:47.880 campaigns aimed at Latino voters, and how all of this 31 00:01:47.960 --> 00:01:51.320 is going to impact the upcoming elections. So this is 32 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.520 politics unfiltered. Let's get into it. 33 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:01.040 Baula. You know, give us your temperature. You were in Washington, 34 00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:01.280 d C. 35 00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:04.160 Last week, a lot of events, a lot of love 36 00:02:04.240 --> 00:02:07.400 for your work. How are you feeling in this moment? 37 00:02:07.600 --> 00:02:08.840 Kallest temperature. 38 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.000 I'm feeling great. I don't have to tell you my ya, 39 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:13.560 but it almost feels surreal. No, when you finally can 40 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:16.720 touch a book, No, I see all those words, print 41 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.080 it out, and so in that sense, I feel great. 42 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.120 I was in Washington, DC yesterday and it did feel 43 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:25.200 like a party, And I think because there does seem 44 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.560 to be so much momentum and so much enthusiasm and 45 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:32.200 just a complete different, for lack of a better word, 46 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.440 vibe shift when it comes to Vice President Harris's momentum 47 00:02:36.440 --> 00:02:39.760 in the country. On the one hand, I understand that story. 48 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.040 I understand why people are so happy, But then it 49 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:45.040 kind of takes me back to twenty sixteen, no, where 50 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:49.400 the national polls showed so much momentum for Hillary Clinton. 51 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:51.480 And then when you start to zoom in, I'm even 52 00:02:51.480 --> 00:02:53.520 thinking of a place like Arizona, where I was just 53 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:56.799 there a couple of days ago. You see that someone 54 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:00.680 like Donald Trump in Arizona among Latino voters, right this 55 00:03:00.760 --> 00:03:03.520 group of voters that has endured the pain of someone 56 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:08.000 like Sheriff Jarpyo. He's polling at over forty percent with 57 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:10.799 Latino voters just in Arizona. And so I say all 58 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.840 this because that's my gut check. Right now, I'm like, 59 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.640 there's two stories happening at the same time, and it 60 00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:18.720 kind of takes me back to twenty sixteen. 61 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:19.680 What about you? 62 00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:20.799 What are you sensing out there? 63 00:03:21.440 --> 00:03:24.480 I'm right there with you, Baulain. I haven't been to DC. 64 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:26.400 I'm going to be there in a week. So I 65 00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:28.600 think it's interesting that you were just like, oh my god, 66 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.520 everybody's having a great time and the energy and the excitement, 67 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:33.680 and then you're like, but then I went to Arizona 68 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:38.680 because I just came back from South Florida, and any 69 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:43.960 excitement for the democratic process was really, let's just say, crushed, 70 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.400 okay by speaking with so many Latinos and Latinas who 71 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.120 are like, oh, I'm going to vote for Trump? Really, 72 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:57.280 oh yeah, and then it's dystopian baolab. And I'm so 73 00:03:57.440 --> 00:03:59.040 glad when I saw that you were going to be 74 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.400 working on this book, because because this is the kind 75 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.640 of journalism that we need, you know, Latinos, and as 76 00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:07.640 I do the show Latino USA, I've been saying for 77 00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:13.080 thirty years, we're really complex and complicated, and you really 78 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:15.760 went full in. You were like, I know this part 79 00:04:16.080 --> 00:04:19.320 of who we are as Latin Americans and Latinos and Latinas, 80 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.360 and we can fall into adopting far right and extremist 81 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:29.440 views in your book, which congratulations Mucha's Felicida is Paula. 82 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:30.000 Thank you. 83 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:34.160 You introduce us to this Latina lawmaker from the borderlands, 84 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.680 who is like all in for MAGA right on the border, 85 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:44.080 a former border patrol officer Latino who deported thousands of people, 86 00:04:45.080 --> 00:04:47.880 only later to find out that he himself was undocumented, 87 00:04:48.440 --> 00:04:51.839 right the Latina co chair of Moms for Liberty, the 88 00:04:51.880 --> 00:04:55.320 group that's pushing the anti trans legislation sweeping the country. 89 00:04:55.760 --> 00:04:59.080 So you really open up what we know, which is, 90 00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:03.680 because of our history in Latin America, we are very 91 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.320 prone to fall into a lot of fear maundering. And 92 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.880 in your book you actually lay it out in very 93 00:05:10.960 --> 00:05:16.640 clear ways about why Latinos and Latinas could fall into 94 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.960 ultra conservative beliefs. You break it down part one tribalism, 95 00:05:21.440 --> 00:05:27.039 part two traditionalism, Part three trauma. Give us like the 96 00:05:27.200 --> 00:05:31.880 brief synopsis as to why those three things are central 97 00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:35.160 to understanding the right word shift of Latinos and Latinas. 98 00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:39.080 So, by tribalism, I mean thinking about the racial baggage 99 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.080 that we carry as Latinos from Latin America to the US. 100 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:44.240 No and all of that manifests and a lot of 101 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.119 I think no internalized racism. When I talk about traditionalism, 102 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:51.840 I'm talking about the way that colonization has had in 103 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:55.279 Latinos know and how that makes many people come to 104 00:05:55.320 --> 00:05:57.920 the United States with a sort of colonial mindset now 105 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:01.279 prone to things like Christian nationalism and the sort of 106 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:04.200 Latino evangelical wave. Now, when I talk about trauma and 107 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.120 thinking about the political trauma that so many Latinos have endured, no, 108 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:10.599 I'm not just talking about the waves of communism, knowing 109 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.200 how so many people have fled communism, but also sort 110 00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:16.279 of talking about the very complex relationship many Latinos have 111 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:20.320 with strongman rule and authoritarianism, and so thinking about all 112 00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:24.200 those things tribalism, traditionalism, and trauma, none of that manifests 113 00:06:24.200 --> 00:06:27.440 and neat ways in American politics. I'll even take a 114 00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:31.120 step back to even ground listeners into why I think 115 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:34.000 it's important to have this conversation. Now, most polls that 116 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.440 you're seeing right now have someone like Donald Trump pulling 117 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:40.279 around thirty five percent with Latino voters. Then you have 118 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:42.280 even the New York Times that has him at thirty 119 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:46.320 nine percent. And so the story that we're hearing on 120 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.920 mainstream media is that someone like Vice President Harris will 121 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:51.640 win the Latino vote. And I mean you and I 122 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.039 have talked about this extensively. It is true and that 123 00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:56.320 will be the case now that the Democratic Party will 124 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.120 continue to win these voters. However, the idea that we 125 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.680 should not be alarmed at the fact know that someone 126 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.479 like Donald Trump now, who is supposed to be the 127 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:10.880 sort of antithesis of Latino's and of the immigrant community, 128 00:07:10.960 --> 00:07:14.040 someone like Donald Trump that is in this moment promising 129 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:18.160 mass deportations, promising still to separate families, that someone like 130 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.480 him could still to this day pull close to forty percent. 131 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.520 That is alarming. And so when I first started kind 132 00:07:25.520 --> 00:07:28.480 of getting into this topic, I believe that the answer 133 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:30.240 to the question of what's at the heart of the 134 00:07:30.280 --> 00:07:33.080 right worship had everything to do with politics, with Magan, 135 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:35.880 with trump Ism, And I soon discovered that I was wrong, 136 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.280 now that so many of the answers that lead you 137 00:07:38.320 --> 00:07:41.840 to the why actually have more to do with understanding 138 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:45.160 why we carry a lot of racial baggage from Latin America, 139 00:07:45.320 --> 00:07:48.600 no understanding the impact and the weight that colonization has 140 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.880 had in our minds, and to your point, understanding the 141 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.640 political trauma that many Latinos carry and that can look 142 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.640 like the paranoid of communism, but that can also have 143 00:07:58.840 --> 00:08:01.720 to do with the subtle traction that many Latino voters 144 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:06.240 have around the idea of strong men rule, no an authoritarianism. 145 00:08:05.440 --> 00:08:08.240 La manola, the hard hand. 146 00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:10.240 Right, we're gonna come down and you're gonna learn your 147 00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:13.560 lesson exact though, kind of like we've had sometimes in 148 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:17.760 our families, right, like ill Papa, right, whis it? I see, yes, he. 149 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:20.400 Is exactly, And so the idea is a little bit 150 00:08:20.440 --> 00:08:23.360 like if you look south of the border, then you 151 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:26.160 start to understand this a lot better. Why are suddenly 152 00:08:26.200 --> 00:08:28.880 people in South Florida that really like the idea that 153 00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:31.480 someone like Donald Trumpe Sun gal Rio? Or why if 154 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.000 I go to the Bronx, I've had endless conversations with 155 00:08:34.040 --> 00:08:37.319 some after Latinas that like Donald Trump not just because 156 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.720 of MAGA, but because of the way that at times 157 00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:42.320 he's able to criminalize Black lives matter? Or how do 158 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.319 we make sense of the fact that some Latino evangelicals 159 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.960 are warming up to Christian nationalism. The list goes on, 160 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.840 and it has not much to do with MAGA and 161 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.080 more to do with all the for lack of a 162 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.600 better word, like shit that we're carrying with us that 163 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:57.400 we just never talk about. 164 00:08:57.520 --> 00:08:59.920 The context that you give us. Boula helps us unders 165 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:05.520 stand how is it possible that you would have Afro 166 00:09:05.640 --> 00:09:09.720 Latinas from the Bronx saying Donald Trump is our guy? 167 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.080 How is it possible that you would have people believing 168 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.120 these things about ourselves. I want to take a moment 169 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:20.880 because I want our listeners to have a chance to 170 00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:24.120 actually hear some of your work. You introduced us to 171 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.280 somebody named Anthony Aguero. He's the son of Mexican immigrants. 172 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.320 He is a vigilante. He spends his days live streaming 173 00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:39.800 himself while he is stalking, literally stalking migrants along the 174 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:47.000 Texas border. So here he is, I live and breathe 175 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:48.600 the border. 176 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:54.240 I'm just so obsessively compulsively dedicated to this. I'm a 177 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:54.840 lone wolf. 178 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.640 He calls himself a lone wolf mahinande. However, it's important 179 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:02.720 to even talk about this because Anthony at Widow is 180 00:10:02.760 --> 00:10:05.680 sort of an extreme example of what you're seeing among 181 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:09.160 some Latino voters, right. And this idea is that there 182 00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:11.880 are more Latinos than we believe that are warming up 183 00:10:11.920 --> 00:10:14.400 to the idea of mass supportations now warming up to 184 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.800 the idea of the wall, and so let's make sense 185 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:19.080 of it. Someone like Anthony at widow, he's a first 186 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:22.200 generation American. But the reality is that right now among 187 00:10:22.280 --> 00:10:25.439 the Latino voting block, it is third generation Latinos, or 188 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:28.320 the fastest growing group of Latinos. So what that means 189 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:32.120 is that most of us speak English. No, most of 190 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:34.240 us are US born, most of us are under the 191 00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:40.400 age of fifty. However, even though many Latinos now the 192 00:10:40.520 --> 00:10:43.200 majority of them feel American and feels a sort of 193 00:10:43.280 --> 00:10:46.320 distance not from their immigrant background, there's this subtle fear 194 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:48.719 that I found in my reporting amongst some Latinos, and 195 00:10:48.760 --> 00:10:52.040 the fear is that mainstream America and white America will 196 00:10:52.040 --> 00:10:56.360 always perceive Latinos as these sort of perpetual foreigners. Anti 197 00:10:56.520 --> 00:11:00.600 Latino hate crimes rise in this country when mainstream talks 198 00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:03.360 about caravans and talks about US quote unquote invasion at 199 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.080 the southern border. There's multiple studies out there that show 200 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:09.040 that as the degree and the rate of Mexican immigration 201 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:13.320 increases in certain counties, white people's attitudes towards their black 202 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.720 neighbors becomes more positive and their attitudes towards their Latino 203 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:21.160 neighbors becomes less positive. Wow, And why is that so talenting? No, 204 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:26.160 because the idea that senophobia can be so deep in 205 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:29.280 this country to the point that at times it is 206 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:33.120 able to subdue America's original sin, which is anti blackness 207 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.640 now and so that, coupled with what some Latinos feel 208 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.319 as their fight to claim belonging in this country, can 209 00:11:39.400 --> 00:11:41.960 turn you into an anthony I wodn't know, it can 210 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.160 turn you into a sort of border vigilante type. 211 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.240 I mean, we're just human, right. You want to be 212 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:49.480 with the majority, you want to be with the cool kids. 213 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:51.400 And in the United States, you know that means I 214 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.640 want to be accepted by someone like Donald Trump. I 215 00:11:53.640 --> 00:11:55.280 want to be in that group, not in the. 216 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:56.480 Other group exactly. 217 00:11:56.520 --> 00:11:59.240 And I think trump Ism is able to tap into 218 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.680 a sort of racial grievance and ethnic grievance that is 219 00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:05.680 very familiar to some Latinos. Why because we're able to 220 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:08.720 sort of dance between the majority and minority. You know, 221 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:11.720 We're able to dance between claiming that we're Hispanic but 222 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:14.720 then also sort of claiming that we're white and Americans. 223 00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.600 These people who are very polarizing who you interviewed, right, 224 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:33.439 they're like sometimes larger than life, but these far right 225 00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:37.000 beliefs they show up in our everyday life as Latinos 226 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.600 and Latinas, So can you kind of paint that picture 227 00:12:39.640 --> 00:12:41.440 and what that looks like and why they're there. 228 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.720 Look, I think when we typically think about this idea 229 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:49.720 of right wing Latinos, we think of anomalies. No, we 230 00:12:49.760 --> 00:12:52.120 think of people like Endriguetaria from them proud boys. We 231 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.080 think of mainstream groups like Moms for Liberty. But I 232 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:02.200 think that the pathway towards extreme and towards maga is 233 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.200 a lot more seamless than we think. For many Latinos. 234 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.480 We think of people like these Latino evangelical pastors that 235 00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:12.160 are out there sort of talking about Christian nationalism. But 236 00:13:12.280 --> 00:13:15.640 remember who are those Latino evangelical pastors talking to a 237 00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:19.320 room full of first and second generation immigrants. Most of 238 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.839 them are Spanish speakers, and they have families, and they 239 00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.840 go to these churches to find belonging in community and safety. 240 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:27.920 And in a matter of seconds, if you're Latino pastor 241 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.280 sort of believes in mega starts infusing MAGA and faith, 242 00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:35.520 what can at the beginning be a safe space can 243 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.480 suddenly transform into a politicized environment that leads you to 244 00:13:39.520 --> 00:13:42.280 extremism and Trumpism, and that can happen to many people. 245 00:13:42.520 --> 00:13:45.439 Part of the thing that I talk a lot about 246 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.679 in Defectors is this idea that you can't really talk 247 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.199 about us without talking about colonialism. 248 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:53.040 And I think one of the. 249 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.360 Things that you've done in your reporting idea is really 250 00:13:55.800 --> 00:13:59.559 break down the role that painful history with colonialism has 251 00:13:59.640 --> 00:14:02.280 had to this day among some Latino voters. And I 252 00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:04.240 know you've been doing this for many years, and so 253 00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:08.800 how do you break down the role of colonialism in 254 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:10.480 what it means to be a Latino in the United 255 00:14:10.520 --> 00:14:11.120 States today? 256 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.520 Well, let me just paint you this picture. When I 257 00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:20.520 first heard about the largest celebration for George Washington's birthday 258 00:14:21.520 --> 00:14:23.320 and where it takes place, do you. 259 00:14:23.280 --> 00:14:23.840 Know the answer? 260 00:14:24.040 --> 00:14:25.040 Actually no, I don't. 261 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.520 Oh my god, I love this. The largest celebration for 262 00:14:28.640 --> 00:14:33.440 George and Martha Washington where people close down the streets, 263 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.960 dress up in fifty pound gowns. Laredo, Tejas. 264 00:14:40.280 --> 00:14:42.440 That's not at all the first place I would come 265 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:42.920 to mind. 266 00:14:43.280 --> 00:14:47.120 Laredo, Texas, and they are proud and it's actually a 267 00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:51.480 sight to see the metou Why in Laredo, Texas are 268 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:54.640 they celebrating George Washington other than the fact that they 269 00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:57.520 are saying, we're on this side of the border, we 270 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:03.000 don't celebrate Minito. What is we celebrate George Washington. There 271 00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.720 you have it. And then if you now move that 272 00:15:05.880 --> 00:15:09.200 up to like modern times. It was twenty five years 273 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.560 ago when I was reporting about a little Cuban boy 274 00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:16.640 named Elian Gonzalez. I remember that was the first time 275 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.960 that a Cuban political scientist, Max Castro told me in 276 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.920 order to understand the far right Cubans down here, you 277 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.280 have to understand PTSD. And I was like, Goma, what 278 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:31.480 are you talking about? And he was like, they left 279 00:15:31.520 --> 00:15:36.720 their country. They are traumatized by communism. Very different than 280 00:15:36.760 --> 00:15:39.480 when I was in college and you had Salvador and 281 00:15:39.520 --> 00:15:44.280 Guatemalan refugees here who were running away not from communism 282 00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:47.880 but from right wing military governments. 283 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:51.400 That's so interesting, you right, right, yeah, But it's all 284 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.640 connected though, right because I think at the end of 285 00:15:53.680 --> 00:15:56.840 the day, you're talking about something that Simon Boliad was 286 00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:59.440 pointing to in the nineteenth century. You know, in eighteen fifteen, 287 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:01.640 one of the things Simon Bolivad says. 288 00:16:01.400 --> 00:16:04.320 I just want to take a moment. Yes, we are 289 00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:08.040 quoting Simon Bolivad in the thick. Go girl, go, I 290 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:09.560 love this go no no. 291 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.680 What I was saying as you're saying that, I think 292 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.920 of Simon Bolivad, who, of course was considered another liberator 293 00:16:14.920 --> 00:16:17.840 of Latin America, the one that sort of finally rid 294 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:21.320 Latin America from the Spaniards. He says, the American States 295 00:16:21.680 --> 00:16:25.240 will need paternalistic governments to cure the wounds and the 296 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.800 ulcers of deputism and war. And so even in the 297 00:16:28.880 --> 00:16:32.280 nineteenth century, someone like Simon Molira was already hinting at 298 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.400 the idea that at times when democracy feels messy, you 299 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:41.160 know that those environments require and will require strong men rule. 300 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:43.960 And what you just said, Mariam, makes me think of, 301 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.520 then the added layer that we're now seeing manifested in 302 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:48.880 US politics, and that is the way that the United 303 00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:53.600 States government conditioned Latinos and Latin Americans to rely on 304 00:16:53.680 --> 00:16:57.080 strong men rule in the name of ridding the West 305 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.600 of communism exactly. And to bring it back to American 306 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.640 politics right now, what's so interesting is that when the 307 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.760 Democrats go to places like South Florida or really any 308 00:17:06.800 --> 00:17:10.040 battleground states where there's a heavy Latino population, and they 309 00:17:10.080 --> 00:17:13.399 rely on this idea that if you paint Donald Trump 310 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.760 like a strongman rule in a gaudiyo, that that in 311 00:17:15.800 --> 00:17:18.960 and of itself will scare Latino voters. But guess what, 312 00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:22.439 it doesn't always work now, because so many Latinos have 313 00:17:22.560 --> 00:17:25.399 been conditioned to believe that when democracy feels messy, the 314 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.000 way that at times it can feel now because of 315 00:17:28.040 --> 00:17:30.720 the layers of missing disinformation, that what you need is 316 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.679 a strongman rule, and therefore Donald Trump is sort of 317 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:35.760 that image that rises from that. 318 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.040 Paula, I want you to talk a little bit about 319 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.159 you use this term fantasy heritage. 320 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.720 Yeah, so, I think fantasy heritage talks about this idea 321 00:17:45.800 --> 00:17:48.800 that Latinos have a tendency to sort of romanticize and 322 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.879 idolize the Spanish colonizers, and the way that that manifests now. 323 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.960 I mean, I'll even talk about myself. No, my mom 324 00:17:55.040 --> 00:17:57.280 is Cuban, my dad is Mexican, but I have a 325 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.879 really really thick Spanish accent span and guess what, so 326 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.359 many times the first thing that people will say is wow, 327 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:13.240 oh my seriously, oh my god, wow. I've even heard 328 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:17.200 really crazy things like oh, you're really Spanish. No, You're 329 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.639 not like those Latinos. This is Spaniola, and that's fantasy heritage. Now, 330 00:18:22.760 --> 00:18:29.240 this idea that the Spaniards really institutionalized a racio and 331 00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:32.600 social hierarchy were obviously being white and having that like 332 00:18:32.840 --> 00:18:37.760 direct line to European heritage speaking sort of gave you 333 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.280 no an authority in status. And one of the things 334 00:18:42.280 --> 00:18:45.080 that I find interesting is that there's some researchers that 335 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.320 have found that right wing Latinos when they're trying to 336 00:18:48.600 --> 00:18:51.960 enter sort of extremist circles, one of the first things 337 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.080 that they use to enter those spaces is by claiming 338 00:18:55.080 --> 00:18:59.160 a direct line to the Spanish colonizers. No, and that's 339 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.399 something that happen in time and time and time again. 340 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:03.920 Me don't get me started. 341 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.400 My grandmother, may she rest in peace, would say, Nostromo's 342 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.640 relation Gonnel Rey Carlos. 343 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:12.040 I don't even remember. 344 00:19:12.080 --> 00:19:16.119 It was like Sianpra was like somerey a king in Spain. 345 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:26.240 Please you focus on somebody who is very controversial and Riquetario. 346 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.720 Twenty two years in prison is what the judge handed 347 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:34.560 down to Enrique Tario, and that's because based off of 348 00:19:34.560 --> 00:19:37.119 the evidence, he was widely viewed as the leader of 349 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:40.399 what happened on January sixth, twenty twenty one. Now we 350 00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:43.000 heard from both prosecutors. 351 00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:42.800 And of fow. 352 00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:44.560 Now, of course he is one of the leaders of 353 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.639 January sixth. He is the leader of the Proud Boys. 354 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.720 He's in prison now, Paula, if you don't mind, can 355 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:54.399 you turn, Paula please to page one sixty seven of 356 00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:55.080 your book. 357 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:58.600 Yes, Professor Nojosa. 358 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.280 And please read us, Paula about your reporting an Enrique Dario. 359 00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:05.879 Could anyone ever have predicted that the son of immigrants 360 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.200 and afre Latino, who, as a boy once played on 361 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:10.520 the streets of Little Havana and dreamed of becoming a 362 00:20:10.520 --> 00:20:13.040 spy in support of the US government, would be one 363 00:20:13.040 --> 00:20:16.960 of the masterminds behind the January sixth insurrection. Perhaps it 364 00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:20.560 was always obvious that, given the opportunity to shine Riquet 365 00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:23.159 Dario would prove that he was a natural leader who 366 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.520 could usher the United States into one of the most 367 00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:28.440 dangerous chapters in its history. He joined the Pride Boys 368 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.760 in twenty sixteen and rose quickly through the ranks, finding 369 00:20:31.800 --> 00:20:35.040 belonging not just in the collective effort to fight the 370 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:37.919 radical left, but also in this sense of power he 371 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.080 gained through the extremist group. This newfound confidence enabled him 372 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.240 to demonstrate that an ordinary Latino man from Miami could 373 00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:49.440 also carry the torch of white supremacy. Tribalism, traditionalism, and 374 00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:54.400 trauma all culminated in Dario, making him an exemplary insurrectionist. 375 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.440 I mean, you paint this really clear picture of him. 376 00:20:57.800 --> 00:21:00.400 In May of last year, he in fact, was found 377 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:05.400 guilty of multiple felonies, disious conspiracy and conspiracy to obstruct 378 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.520 an official proceeding, among them. US District Judge Timothy Kelly, 379 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.560 who sentenced Thatadio now he is a Trump appointee. Believe 380 00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:16.399 it or not, this judge said that Tadio was the 381 00:21:16.520 --> 00:21:21.320 ultimate leader, the ultimate person who organized, who was motivated 382 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.280 by revolutionary zeal and. In your book, you say that 383 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.720 those words struck with you. How do we come to 384 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.960 terms with a white supremacist who is not white? 385 00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:36.600 Even just starting with the basic idea which I hear 386 00:21:36.760 --> 00:21:38.960 so many times. I heard it not just from someone 387 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.760 like Drigue Dario, but from Naudil Gracia, who I intribute, 388 00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:44.560 who is another generar sixth insurrectionist. One of the first 389 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:46.760 things he told me is, well, my name is Gracia. 390 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.120 There's no way that I can be a white supremacist, 391 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.520 and that's always how he led every single conversation. So 392 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.359 just even grounding us and the idea that, of course 393 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.879 not to be Ladina, to be an immigrant does not 394 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.919 make you immune to racism. It does not make you 395 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.800 immune too any of these sort of white supremacist tendencies. 396 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.320 And of course Thendriguetta is a prime example of that. 397 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.200 You know, I met him years ago before he sort 398 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.760 of became so alert and enamored with the idea of 399 00:22:10.760 --> 00:22:13.560 the Pride Voice. My impression of hedrigue Dario was that 400 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:16.560 he was someone that never really fit anywhere. He grew 401 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.560