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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Latino USA listeners, here's a great show from our archives.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Latino USA. I'm Maria Inojosa today on our

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<v Speaker 1>show a story that takes place elsewhere in the Caribbean,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm here in the studio with Latino USA producer

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<v Speaker 1>Marlon Bishop and Marlon, you took a trip recently to

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<v Speaker 1>one of my all time favorite places in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the Dominican Republic. And we're going to be looking

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<v Speaker 1>into this story for the entire hour because it's a

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<v Speaker 1>really complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>One, that's right, and I want to start by talking

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<v Speaker 2>about something that happened on one of the first days

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<v Speaker 2>I was there.

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<v Speaker 3>What happened.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in the capital, Santa Domingo, and I see a

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<v Speaker 2>billboard that just really kind of takes my breath away.

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<v Speaker 1>What does the billboard say?

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<v Speaker 2>It says without a border, there's no country, and then

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<v Speaker 2>in bigger letters, the wall border control.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait wait wait, So just like the wall symbolizes border

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<v Speaker 1>control and what does that mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it was a billboard for this politician whose name

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<v Speaker 2>is Pellegreene Castillo, and what it means is that he

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<v Speaker 2>wants to build a wall on the border. It turns

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<v Speaker 2>out he's kind of this right wing Dominican Trump figure

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<v Speaker 2>of sorts. I looked him up and I visited his office.

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<v Speaker 2>That's him, That's Pelagrene. He's a former member of the

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<v Speaker 2>Dominican legislature. He runs this far right party that has

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<v Speaker 2>this anti immigrant stance, and you know, I asked around.

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<v Speaker 2>A couple of people told me he was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>seen as a sort of crazy guy. There's paintings all

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<v Speaker 2>over his office of the Dominican founding fathers, Spanish looking

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<v Speaker 2>guys with kind of cool hair.

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<v Speaker 1>He thinks that Trump learned from the Dominicans about the wall.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's kind of joking, but you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>said that he's been asking for a while since the nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he's like, maybe Trump copied it for me.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, you know, the border that he wants

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<v Speaker 2>to build a wall on is Haiti.

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<v Speaker 1>Haiti and the Dominican Republic are one island that is

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<v Speaker 1>divided in half essentially, and this is where this politician

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<v Speaker 1>wants to put the wall.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an island, but it's like really populated. There's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>about ten million people in Haiti. There's ten million people

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<v Speaker 2>in the dr and there's a lot of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>poverty and pressure in Haiti that leads people to migrate

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<v Speaker 2>to the DR to work. He talks about Haiti is

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<v Speaker 2>depressing wages of Dominican workers. And he also said this

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<v Speaker 2>one thing that I thought was a little eerie vite conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>He says, we want to get along with Haiti well,

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<v Speaker 2>and we want to avoid conflicts. In a perfect world,

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<v Speaker 2>there would be no walls, but we have to build

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<v Speaker 2>a wall to keep order because if not, there's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be another kind of wall. Muros, a wall of

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<v Speaker 2>hate and a wall of blood.

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<v Speaker 1>That's very dramatic.

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<v Speaker 2>And the truth is things are really tense in the

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<v Speaker 2>DR right now around immigration. You know, you talk to

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of average Dominicans and they feel really strongly

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<v Speaker 2>that they don't want Haitians living in their country.

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<v Speaker 1>And the other thing is that Haitians have been in

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<v Speaker 1>the Dominican Republic really for decades upon decades upon decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, we know that there are a lot of stories

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<v Speaker 2>about tensions like this, you know, hatred that happens across borders.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems to happen all over the world, right And

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<v Speaker 2>I think we tend to think of this as like

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<v Speaker 2>one of the worst aspects of human nature, which is

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<v Speaker 2>that you put two people and you draw a line

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<v Speaker 2>in between them, and they're going to grow to hate

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<v Speaker 2>each other. So the story I want to tell today

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<v Speaker 2>is about those lines, Who does the drawing, and what

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<v Speaker 2>are the consequences for all of us? In specific, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to focus on how one man, Raphael through Heio,

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<v Speaker 2>the former dictator of the Dominican Republic, did something terrible

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<v Speaker 2>exactly eighty years ago, something so terrible that to this

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<v Speaker 2>people don't want to talk about it. And this single

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<v Speaker 2>event shaped the Dominican Haitian border as we know it.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us how this story starts.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, to start off.

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<v Speaker 3>We need to meet Edward Paulino. He's Dominican American and

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<v Speaker 3>I am proudly a historian.

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<v Speaker 2>Specifically, he studies the Dominican Haitian border. His book Dividing

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<v Speaker 2>Hispaniola is actually what got me interested in this whole

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<v Speaker 2>topic in the first place. And Edward can point to

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<v Speaker 2>the moment that the border called to him.

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<v Speaker 3>I was a sophomore maybe in college, and my advisor

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<v Speaker 3>invited me to visit the FDR Presidential Library, and there

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<v Speaker 3>I discovered for myself a document.

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<v Speaker 2>The document was a telegram sent in nineteen thirty seven

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<v Speaker 2>from the US ambassador in the Dominican Republic to the

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<v Speaker 2>State Department.

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<v Speaker 3>Saying that there was a campaign of extermination.

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<v Speaker 2>A quote systematic campaign of extermination end.

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<v Speaker 3>Quote, and that's the red pill. I went into the

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<v Speaker 3>rabbit hole.

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<v Speaker 2>Edward became obst tessed with wanting to learn everything about

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<v Speaker 2>this massacre. He decided he wanted to go to the

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<v Speaker 2>border and see for himself what happened. And growing up

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<v Speaker 2>in the Dominican household, he heard things about the border

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of painted it as a scary place.

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<v Speaker 3>Why are you going to the border? Don't you know

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<v Speaker 3>that the border they eat people?

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<v Speaker 2>And so had you heard growing up about the massacre

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<v Speaker 2>at all? Like a god? He as a Dominican American.

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<v Speaker 3>No massacre.

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<v Speaker 2>But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Time to back up.

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<v Speaker 2>So the way this all started is that back in

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<v Speaker 2>the day, the Spanish arrived in what is today the

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<v Speaker 2>Dominican Republic. It's actually the first Spanish colony in all

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<v Speaker 2>the Americas. They colonized half the island and the French

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<v Speaker 2>colonized the other half. Both sides brought large numbers of

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<v Speaker 2>enslaved Africans to work, but especially the French, and it

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<v Speaker 2>became the wealthiest colony of the French Empire. But not

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<v Speaker 2>for long, because in eighteen o four there was the

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<v Speaker 2>Haitian Revolution. It was the most successful slaver volt in

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<v Speaker 2>modern history, maybe ever. And after the haitiansick out the French,

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<v Speaker 2>they look over on the other side of the island

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<v Speaker 2>and they think, we probably don't want a European power

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<v Speaker 2>over there.

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<v Speaker 3>They want to be free. But the Haitians also feel

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<v Speaker 3>that they need to control the island because they don't

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<v Speaker 3>want slavery.

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<v Speaker 2>So in eighteen twenty two, Haiti invades the other Spanish

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<v Speaker 2>controlled half of the island what is today the Dominican Republic.

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<v Speaker 2>They kick out the Spanish and they rule over the

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<v Speaker 2>unified island for twenty two years. They end slavery, but

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<v Speaker 2>eventually Dominicans pushed the Haitians back and declare their independence.

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<v Speaker 2>To this day, actually Dominicans celebrate their independence not from Spain,

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<v Speaker 2>who is their colonizer, but from Haiti.

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<v Speaker 3>And so by eighteen forty four you have this idea

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<v Speaker 3>of dominicanness expelling Haitians.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's fast forward now to nineteen thirty when a general

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<v Speaker 2>in the Dominican military named Rafael Trujillo seizes power from.

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<v Speaker 4>The ancient Spanish fortress built more than four hundred years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Comes the car of Rafael Trujliumolino, the strong Man of

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<v Speaker 1>the Republic.

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<v Speaker 2>Through Heillo was a total megalomaniac. He had the capital city,

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<v Speaker 2>Santo Domingo, renamed after him. It became Ceodad through Heillo.

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<v Speaker 2>He also renamed the country's highest mountain after himself, and

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<v Speaker 2>he did things like force the country's merengue orchestras to

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<v Speaker 2>compose songs in his honor. And nowadays most people look

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<v Speaker 2>back at Thrujillo as one of the great villains of

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<v Speaker 2>Latin American history. He ran a police state, killed thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of his own citizens. He's also said to have been

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<v Speaker 2>obsessed with whitening the Dominican Republic and even powdered his

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<v Speaker 2>face to have a more Spanish appearance. And a side

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<v Speaker 2>note about that, so most Dominicans are of at least

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<v Speaker 2>partial African ancestry, but the country for much of its

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<v Speaker 2>history has had this very Eurocentric identity. Part of that

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<v Speaker 2>is just regular old fashioned racism, but a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>it was about the presence of Haiti next door, and

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<v Speaker 2>some Dominic thinkers have told me, you know, Dominicans saw

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<v Speaker 2>how the world isolated Haiti, and they said to themselves, look,

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<v Speaker 2>if we can define ourselves as white, or at least

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<v Speaker 2>white er, things will be much better for us. But

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<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of Trujillo's rule, in terms of his

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<v Speaker 2>relationship with Haiti, things started out really positive. In nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five, the two nations even signed a border treaty.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, someone even nominated President Thruhio and President Vincennes

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<v Speaker 3>of Haiti for the Noble Peace Prize.

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<v Speaker 2>Thrhio visited Haiti and bragged about having a Haitian grandmother.

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<v Speaker 2>He declared his love for the Haitian people and kissed

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<v Speaker 2>the Haitian flag. But the border with Haiti became a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of fixation for him. So I spoke to another historian,

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Turrets, and he explained to me that back in

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<v Speaker 2>through Heo's time, many of the people who lived in

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<v Speaker 2>the border area of the Dominican Republic were actually Haitian.

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<v Speaker 5>Most Haitians there were not migrants. Most Haitians had lived

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<v Speaker 5>there for generations and things have been very peaceful.

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<v Speaker 2>Kids might live in the DR and then casually cross

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<v Speaker 2>over to go to school in Haiti or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time, Haiti was actually a wealthier country than

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<v Speaker 2>the DR and many of the Haitians there were fairly

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<v Speaker 2>well off.

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<v Speaker 5>You have cattle ranches that straddle both sides of the border,

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<v Speaker 5>you have families and communities that ignore the border in

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<v Speaker 5>a way that's very difficult for Trujillo, who, despite the

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<v Speaker 5>harmony between the two states, was very interested in hardening

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<v Speaker 5>the border.

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<v Speaker 2>He wanted to harden the border because, for one, he

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<v Speaker 2>was paranoid that political enemies could cross back and forth

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<v Speaker 2>and plot to overthrow him. And also, maybe most importantly

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<v Speaker 2>to it says, he controlled everything in the country and

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<v Speaker 2>it grated him that he couldn't control this one thing.

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<v Speaker 5>In the end, I think it was this transnationalism which

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<v Speaker 5>was so upsetting to Trujillo, the fact that the border

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<v Speaker 5>was really a political fiction. And after the massacre, Trhillo's

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<v Speaker 5>reported to have said, now let them say we have

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<v Speaker 5>no borders.

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<v Speaker 2>And so on October second, nineteen thirty seven, it began.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a Star that through Hell was already doing a

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<v Speaker 3>tour of the border. In early October. He was in

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<v Speaker 3>the have on in what is called like the city hall,

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<v Speaker 3>this official building, in a party. And so he stops

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<v Speaker 3>and he stands up. He says that I have heard

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<v Speaker 3>Dominican farmers their cattles being stolen no more. He stomps

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<v Speaker 3>his foot.

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<v Speaker 2>According to the story, that stomp marked the beginning of

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<v Speaker 2>the massacre. On thru Hero's order, the Dominican army in

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<v Speaker 2>the northwest of the country, especially near the border, went

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<v Speaker 2>down to town looking for Haitians. Today, this massacre is

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<v Speaker 2>known in textbooks as the Peti Hill or Parsley massacre.

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<v Speaker 3>Haitians and Dominicans can look alike, right, Dominicans are the

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<v Speaker 3>majority of African descent, So how do you know Haitian

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<v Speaker 3>is a Dominican.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there was this test. If soldiers suspected some

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<v Speaker 2>body of being Haitian, they would ask them to pronounce

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<v Speaker 2>the word.

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<v Speaker 3>Pet Ahil, and so in Haitian creole, the ours are

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<v Speaker 3>not as you know, you can roll them as hard

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<v Speaker 3>as a Spanish speaker. And so the thinking was if

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<v Speaker 3>or she mispronounced Verrehill, then they were taken away or

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<v Speaker 3>killed on the spot.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of people doubt if this story is

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<v Speaker 2>true because Haitians living in the border region for many

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<v Speaker 2>years would have spoken Spanish fluently. What is true is

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<v Speaker 2>that Dominican soldiers killed innocent Haitian families.

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<v Speaker 3>They were rounded up and they were summarily executed.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are all sorts of horror stories which are

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<v Speaker 2>hard to verify, of soldiers throwing babies in the air

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<v Speaker 2>and impaling them on bayonets, or making people dig their

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<v Speaker 2>own graves. Civilians were recruited to help the military burn

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<v Speaker 2>the bodies, and according to some scholarly accounts, they may

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<v Speaker 2>have participated in some of the killings as well. Edward

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<v Speaker 2>Paulino when he was doing his dissertation research, he interviewed

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<v Speaker 2>several people who claimed to have participated in the killings.

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<v Speaker 3>The military gave them, these civilians cartridges for shotguns, but

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<v Speaker 3>you had to prove that you had used the cartridge.

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<v Speaker 3>To show them that you killed Haitians. You had to

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<v Speaker 3>bring back the ears of those you killed. If you

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<v Speaker 3>killed two Haystians, you had to bring back three ears.

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<v Speaker 2>And on the other side there were civilians who resisted.

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<v Speaker 3>And you had Dominicans who risked their lives to save

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<v Speaker 3>their neighbors by saying, don't go there, I saw the patrol, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>The killing stopped after about eight days. Later. Estimates of

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<v Speaker 2>the dead would vary wildly, from a few thousand up

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<v Speaker 2>to twelve thousand or even thirty thousand.

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<v Speaker 3>They murdered them there, usually by machetes. The state already

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<v Speaker 3>was thinking about an excuse, saying this was not a

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<v Speaker 3>military operation. The killings were just Dominican patriotic farmers defending

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<v Speaker 3>their lands from Haitians.

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<v Speaker 2>The Dominican government didn't acknowledge that it was responsible for

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<v Speaker 2>the massacre.

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<v Speaker 3>There was a moratorium on news.

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<v Speaker 2>The local press, which through Heio controlled, did not report

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<v Speaker 2>on the government's role in the massacre and insisted that

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<v Speaker 2>the story was about fed up locals rising up against

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<v Speaker 2>Haitian cattle thieves. The United States, under pressure from Haiti,

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<v Speaker 2>urged through Heo, to pay an indemnity of five hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty five thousand dollars to the Haitian government, worth

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<v Speaker 2>about nine million dollars today. The dictator reluctantly paid, but

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<v Speaker 2>refused to apologize. Through Heio stayed in power for another

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four years, and during that time nobody could investigate

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<v Speaker 2>the massacre. After his death, scholars started digging through documents

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<v Speaker 2>and doing interviews and kind of trying to piece together

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<v Speaker 2>what happened. But there were large pieces of the puzzle missing.

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<v Speaker 2>The biggest piece was the bodies. They were never found,

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<v Speaker 2>and that has made it very easy for people to say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this didn't happen, or at least not on the scale

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<v Speaker 2>people are claiming that it did. And so I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the border myself. I couldn't exactly go

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<v Speaker 2>around trying to dig up bodies, so I did the

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<v Speaker 2>next best thing. I went looking for survivors.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up on Latino, USA. We hear from some of

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<v Speaker 1>those survivors. Stay with us, not divide us. Hey, we're

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<v Speaker 1>back and I'm here today with producer Marlon Bishop, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about the Haitian Dominican massacre of nineteen thirty seven. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>when we left off, Marlon was talking about the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that no bodies have ever been found after the massacre.

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<v Speaker 1>So Marlon decided to head to the border himself to

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<v Speaker 1>see if he could find any survivors.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, So before I left, I started digging around

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<v Speaker 2>and eventually I got in touch with a woman named

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<v Speaker 2>Nancy Bethensis. She's from the Border area. Does volunteer work

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<v Speaker 2>with local NGOs, and when I called her up, she said,

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<v Speaker 2>no problem, I can definitely help you find survivors. So

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<v Speaker 2>I flew to santh to Domingo and rented a car

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<v Speaker 2>and drove about five hours up through the Siboo Valley

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<v Speaker 2>and over the mountains to a small city on the

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<v Speaker 2>border called Dajabon. I arrived at night, and when I

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<v Speaker 2>got there, I met up with Nancy and a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of hers who she invited to help on our mission.

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<v Speaker 6>Millambrees Steven soon Diief.

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<v Speaker 2>Stephenson is in his twenties from the Haitian side of

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<v Speaker 2>the border, but goes to university on the Dominican side.

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<v Speaker 2>Nancy is Dominican in her forties, with a light complexion

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<v Speaker 2>and dyed blondish hair, and Nancy and Stevenson have formed

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of unlikely friendship. It's unlikely Becauseiama Stevenson's grandfather

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<v Speaker 2>was himself a survivor of the Haitian massacre, and Nancy.

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<v Speaker 7>Niram Jamava Raphael and riqueve.

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<v Speaker 2>Her grandfather was a chief in the Dominican military stationed

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<v Speaker 2>at the border at the time.

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<v Speaker 7>Yel Tu Keepartisi par Ima Tar and he killed Haitians

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<v Speaker 7>during the massacre.

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<v Speaker 2>And the amazing thing is that their grandfathers were from

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<v Speaker 2>the exact same town, but on different sides of the conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>And sitting down with Nancy and Stevenson, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>know what were the scars that the massacre left. How

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<v Speaker 2>do Haitians and Dominicans here at the border see each

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<v Speaker 2>other today, eighty years after the killings.

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<v Speaker 7>Aunt is jummiauer tami Ido.

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<v Speaker 2>When she was a kid, Nancy says she remembers that

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<v Speaker 2>if you behaved badly, your parents would say, if you

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<v Speaker 2>keep acting this way, the Haitians are going to get you.

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<v Speaker 2>And among Haitians, Stevenson says, Dominicans have this reputation of

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<v Speaker 2>being kind of violent and racistes dominic. If somebody in

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<v Speaker 2>Haiti has a knife or is playing with knives, people

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<v Speaker 2>will say you must have Dominican blood because you like knives.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact, at the border, the massacre is not

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<v Speaker 2>known at all as the Parsley massacre, but courte the cutting,

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<v Speaker 2>and Nancy is not proud of her family's role in this.

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<v Speaker 2>Today she actually volunteers for groups that work with Haitian immigrants.

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<v Speaker 7>Jo She says that maybe she works with Haitians because

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<v Speaker 7>she has a debt to pay because of what her

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<v Speaker 7>grandfather did.

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<v Speaker 2>Over the days I spent with Nancy, I learned that

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<v Speaker 2>she was a bit of a busy body, somebody who

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<v Speaker 2>likes to stick her nose in places where it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily invited. And this trait, which might be super annoying,

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<v Speaker 2>say in a neighbor, was actually really helpful. In a

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<v Speaker 2>guide for the Dominican border is.

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<v Speaker 7>Super part of the.

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<v Speaker 2>Cal she says. The authorities of this country want the

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<v Speaker 2>massacre to be forgotten, to be covered up coming, and

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that people don't want to talk about it,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what interests her. We made a plan. First I

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<v Speaker 2>would go with Stevenson Tahiti to introduce survivors there, and

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<v Speaker 2>then Nancy would take me around and do the same,

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<v Speaker 2>but on the Dominican side. The next day, bright and early,

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<v Speaker 2>I meet up with Stevenson at the foot of the

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<v Speaker 2>international bridge leading to.

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<v Speaker 6>Haiti Isa del Merca.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Monday, which is the day of the weekly binational market,

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<v Speaker 2>so there's lots of people crossing back and forth to

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00:19:16.520 --> 00:19:20.239
<v Speaker 2>buy and sell goods. We're theoretically allowed to cross, but

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<v Speaker 2>we weren't sure if the border guards would give us

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<v Speaker 2>any trouble about our recording equipment. So we try to

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00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.720
<v Speaker 2>fly under the radar. So we're walking across the bridge

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<v Speaker 2>crossing into Haiti and nobody has asked us for any document.

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<v Speaker 2>And the plan is if someone tries to stop us,

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<v Speaker 2>we just say we're going to a meeting and they'll

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<v Speaker 2>let us throw And it seems like this plan works flawlessly.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, that river we just crossed, it's called

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<v Speaker 2>the Massacre river jaisamus Angati wanna meant. The town on

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<v Speaker 2>the Haitian side isn't too different from Djabone, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the town on the Dominican side. There's lots of motorcycles

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<v Speaker 2>here Domino games, though the streets and buildings are noticeably

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<v Speaker 2>in the worst shape. Stevenson seems to loosen up right

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<v Speaker 2>away once we crossed into Haiti. The first stop of

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<v Speaker 2>the day is his grandfather's house, who remember, was a

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<v Speaker 2>survivor himself. Stevenson's grandfather is named Francisco Pierre. He's ninety

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<v Speaker 2>years old, mostly blind, can't move much, but when we

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<v Speaker 2>asked him to tell us the story about what happened

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<v Speaker 2>to him during the massacre, he remembered it as if

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<v Speaker 2>it were yesterday. By the way, we've hired a voice

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<v Speaker 2>actor to translate his story.

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<v Speaker 6>Leavin Wilkoma, Dominikan never used to It was Essens who

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<v Speaker 6>used to found and work.

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<v Speaker 1>See I think you take on, I think take on God.

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<v Speaker 2>Francisco's family was typical of the area. They were mixed

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<v Speaker 2>Dominican and Haitian and had lived in the border area

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<v Speaker 2>for a really long time, and because of that, they

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<v Speaker 2>were completely surprised by what happened.

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<v Speaker 6>On October feets nineteen thirty seven. We saw an Asian

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<v Speaker 6>man pass by and he yelled out to my uncle,

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<v Speaker 6>go across to Ritzi right now, because they are killing

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<v Speaker 6>people in the village. We went further up to here,

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<v Speaker 6>and sure enough the village was boiling with noise. They

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<v Speaker 6>were killing every last as in the village. So we

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<v Speaker 6>grabbed the donkey, filled our gunny sacks and tied it

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<v Speaker 6>to him. I had a little gold filled with rice

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<v Speaker 6>and put it around my shoulder and we were off.

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<v Speaker 2>Really Francisco and his grandmother started walking. Other Haitians who

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<v Speaker 2>were fleeing joined them, and as they went along, all

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<v Speaker 2>of a sudden, two Dominicans approached.

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<v Speaker 6>Mboy was on a mule and the other on a horse,

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<v Speaker 6>and they said stop right there, stop right there. I

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<v Speaker 6>immediately ran off with my calabash filled in my hands.

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<v Speaker 6>When I reached my grandmother, I got hold of myself.

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<v Speaker 6>I was trembling. I was only done. I trembled and trembled.

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<v Speaker 6>One of the Dominicans went to approach us and menace us.

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<v Speaker 6>The other one lagged behind.

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<v Speaker 2>Marie. The Dominican who lagged behind recognized one of the

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<v Speaker 2>Haitian women who had joined the group some time ago.

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<v Speaker 2>The Dominican had been riding by this Haitian woman's house

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<v Speaker 2>and fallen off his horse and injured himself, and she

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<v Speaker 2>took him in and nursed him back to health. Now

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<v Speaker 2>in front of her, under orders to kill any Haitians,

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<v Speaker 2>he saw he couldn't do it and started crying.

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<v Speaker 6>The Dominican heard him crying and asked what he was

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<v Speaker 6>bubbering about. He said that woman, I cannot kill her.

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<v Speaker 6>She treated me with great kindness once once I was sick,

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<v Speaker 6>and to see who picked me up, so I cannot

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<v Speaker 6>kill her.

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<v Speaker 5>And keep.

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<v Speaker 2>The Dominicans spared the group and they took off running.

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<v Speaker 6>We ran and ran and ran and ran. When we

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00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:20.280
<v Speaker 6>arrived far, we started to cheer, and they yelled from

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<v Speaker 6>afar to keep going, because if we let other Dominicans

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<v Speaker 6>find us, we'd be in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>But the group continued on. Descending a steep hill, we

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00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 2>went down and.

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<v Speaker 6>Approached a body of water which was the border between

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<v Speaker 6>eighty and the Dominican Republic. When we arrived, we saw

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<v Speaker 6>a bunch of dead bodies. There were a bunch of

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<v Speaker 6>Asians on the Asian side yelling, come, come, the guards

406
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:53.560
<v Speaker 6>are coming and if they catch you, they.

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<v Speaker 2>Will kill you.

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<v Speaker 6>But we stood there in mobile. Before we knew it,

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00:23:57.840 --> 00:24:01.920
<v Speaker 6>the Asians crossed over and our donkeys and crabbed a

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00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:05.600
<v Speaker 6>hold of our hands and pulled us across. No sooner

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<v Speaker 6>than we made it across, the Dominicans that were killing

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<v Speaker 6>people showed up.

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<v Speaker 2>Francisco and his grandmother narrowly escaped, and after they crossed,

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<v Speaker 2>they went to the Haitian police, who took down their names. Eventually,

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00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:22.560
<v Speaker 2>in Haiti he would go by Francisque instead of Francisco.

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<v Speaker 2>The local mayor brought them to a place where they

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<v Speaker 2>could build a house, and here in Haiti they remade

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<v Speaker 2>their life, starting from scratch and Since then, he says

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<v Speaker 2>he's only returned to the DR once to go to

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<v Speaker 2>a hospital when he was very ill, and the reason

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<v Speaker 2>he hasn't wanted to go back is because he's terrified

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<v Speaker 2>of the.

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<v Speaker 6>DR and T com Pierre Dominica. I was afraid of Dominica.

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<v Speaker 2>Francisco's story was a little slice of living proof about

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<v Speaker 2>what happened, and at ninety years old, he's probably one

426
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.680
<v Speaker 2>of few people alive today who lived through the massacre

427
00:24:58.840 --> 00:25:01.600
<v Speaker 2>and is old enough to remember. Over the rest of

428
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.120
<v Speaker 2>the day, we spoke to several others who also said

429
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.159
<v Speaker 2>they were survivors. We found them in dos mon, a

430
00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:09.919
<v Speaker 2>town twenty minutes away. That residence a was set up

431
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.280
<v Speaker 2>as a refugee camp for people fleeing the massacre. Their

432
00:25:13.320 --> 00:25:16.919
<v Speaker 2>stories were similar to Francisco's total surprise at the attack,

433
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.680
<v Speaker 2>narrow escapes across to Haiti, and relatives they never saw

434
00:25:20.840 --> 00:25:21.639
<v Speaker 2>or heard from again.

435
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.120
<v Speaker 7>This is el Rio Masak.

436
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:31.920
<v Speaker 2>The next day, I went out with Nancy, the Dominican

437
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.440
<v Speaker 2>woman we met earlier whose grandfather participated in the killings,

438
00:25:35.800 --> 00:25:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to learn about what happened during the

439
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.840
<v Speaker 2>massacre from the other side and why many Dominicans don't

440
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>want to talk about it. As we drive through the

441
00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:47.240
<v Speaker 2>forested mountains near the border, she points to orchards of

442
00:25:47.320 --> 00:25:54.879
<v Speaker 2>mango trees along the road. You see all those mango trees.

443
00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:57.560
<v Speaker 2>They were planted by Haitians who were the original owners

444
00:25:57.600 --> 00:26:04.639
<v Speaker 2>of these lands Guandol. All of a sudden, when the

445
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Haitians were kicked off, it made the Dominicans richer because

446
00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>they were able to take the lands that were left behind.

447
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.719
<v Speaker 2>After an hour driving through these really beautiful landscapes, we

448
00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:19.679
<v Speaker 2>arrived at the house of a woman named Paulina was

449
00:26:19.800 --> 00:26:23.960
<v Speaker 2>four years old when the massacre happened. You're not your name.

450
00:26:26.280 --> 00:26:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Today the place she lives is called rest Restoration, but

451
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.200
<v Speaker 2>back when she was growing up here it was. In fact,

452
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.920
<v Speaker 2>most of the place names in the border area used

453
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.680
<v Speaker 2>to have French or Creole sounding names, and they were

454
00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:43.320
<v Speaker 2>changed to patriotic Spanish sounding ones after the massacre. It

455
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.959
<v Speaker 2>was part of Trujillo's plan to Dominicanize the border, and

456
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:53.359
<v Speaker 2>back when Paulina was a kid, she said, Dominicans didn't

457
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:55.920
<v Speaker 2>live here at all. It was a totally Haitian town.

458
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.879
<v Speaker 2>Her family was mixed. Her mom was Dominican and her

459
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:05.320
<v Speaker 2>dad Haitian Daniel, her father, she says, was a wealthy

460
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:09.720
<v Speaker 2>man for the region. He had lots of animals, cows, pigs,

461
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:13.320
<v Speaker 2>there were coffee fields, and all of it stayed behind

462
00:27:15.520 --> 00:27:17.800
<v Speaker 2>Wa Yo Yo Yo Yo Yo Yo Yomi. When the

463
00:27:17.840 --> 00:27:20.760
<v Speaker 2>massacre happened, her family fled to Haiti and they lived

464
00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:22.879
<v Speaker 2>on the other side of the border for many years.

465
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Eventually they came back, though they never recouped the property

466
00:27:26.800 --> 00:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>that they left behind. And one thing that was interesting

467
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.720
<v Speaker 2>is that when I asked her about Trujillo, despite narrowly

468
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>escaping slaughter during Trujillo's massacre, she says Throhio was a

469
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.720
<v Speaker 2>good looker, a real gentleman, a caballero. That's her impression

470
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.760
<v Speaker 2>from watching a Colombian soap opera about Trujillo's life. And

471
00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:51.720
<v Speaker 2>despite being half Haitian herself and living in Haiti for

472
00:27:51.800 --> 00:27:56.280
<v Speaker 2>much of her life, she still spoke negatively about Haitians id.

473
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:00.600
<v Speaker 5>A.

474
00:28:00.600 --> 00:28:03.080
<v Speaker 2>As we mentioned earlier, Haitians and Dominicans in the border

475
00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:06.560
<v Speaker 2>area lived together peacefully, according to the research of historians.

476
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Yet after the massacre, anti Haitian attitudes grew and grew,

477
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.720
<v Speaker 2>and so Edward Paulino, the historian we spoke to earlier

478
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>started to ask why, and he found.

479
00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:20.640
<v Speaker 3>The violence came first, and then came the ideology.

480
00:28:20.840 --> 00:28:24.520
<v Speaker 2>In other words, after the massacre, in anti Haitian ideology

481
00:28:24.560 --> 00:28:27.560
<v Speaker 2>sprung up, which Edward says was used by Thruhio to

482
00:28:27.800 --> 00:28:31.600
<v Speaker 2>justify the massacre. After the fact, that ideology was spread

483
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:34.879
<v Speaker 2>in newspapers which Thruhio controlled, and in the work of

484
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.720
<v Speaker 2>intellectuals associated with the regime.

485
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:43.719
<v Speaker 3>Through Hio capitalized on this historically but diffuse notion of

486
00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:47.520
<v Speaker 3>Haiti as the outsider, as the enemy, and he uses

487
00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:52.440
<v Speaker 3>the massacre then to crystallize this official doctrine that Haitians

488
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:53.760
<v Speaker 3>are eternal enemies.

489
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:57.720
<v Speaker 2>And this is this classic thing that dictators and ultnationalists

490
00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:00.560
<v Speaker 2>like Thruhio do right they create a book man to

491
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.520
<v Speaker 2>rally the people against. In articles and books from Thruhio's era,

492
00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Haitians were referred to as depraved and primitive, and this

493
00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:12.160
<v Speaker 2>conflict between the nations was increasingly cast in racial terms

494
00:29:12.520 --> 00:29:19.280
<v Speaker 2>as supposedly virtuous white Spanish Dominicans versus bad black African Haitians.

495
00:29:19.560 --> 00:29:22.720
<v Speaker 2>It was a predictable psychological trick that's been used time

496
00:29:22.760 --> 00:29:26.600
<v Speaker 2>and time again. If Haitians could be painted as fundamentally bad,

497
00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:32.360
<v Speaker 2>then the massacre could be painted as just. While I

498
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>was on the border, I saw that ideology at work.

499
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.680
<v Speaker 2>It happened when Nancy took me to meet an older

500
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Dominican man. His name was raynam Ramos Dors. He lived

501
00:29:41.360 --> 00:29:43.760
<v Speaker 2>through the dictatorship. He was a child during the massacre,

502
00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and I asked him what he thought of Thrujillo.

503
00:29:46.600 --> 00:29:51.640
<v Speaker 8>Well, Lehandaia Johanna the Camalo.

504
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.640
<v Speaker 2>He says that a lot of people said Thrujillo was

505
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.360
<v Speaker 2>bad because he killed a lot of people. But the

506
00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.240
<v Speaker 2>thing is you could go out at any hour of

507
00:29:59.280 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the night, nobody would bother you. There was respect. And

508
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.720
<v Speaker 2>when Nancy and I asked what he thought about Haitians,

509
00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 2>he said that back then Haitians would steal children and

510
00:30:08.800 --> 00:30:12.600
<v Speaker 2>eat them. JOYSOI, what do you think about the Haitian massacre?

511
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Nancy asked, mala ya he Kolymy.

512
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.160
<v Speaker 2>They had done a lot of bad things and we

513
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:26.040
<v Speaker 2>had to get rid of them. He says. Turuhio wanted

514
00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:29.880
<v Speaker 2>to clean up the country. You kept yourself, and what

515
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:34.760
<v Speaker 2>do you think about that? Asked Nancy. Trujillo did the

516
00:30:34.800 --> 00:30:42.320
<v Speaker 2>right thing, he says, thirty.

517
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:44.520
<v Speaker 8>One year reign of terra and bloodshed comes to an

518
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.400
<v Speaker 8>end in the Dominican Republic as Dictator Rafael Tohio is

519
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:51.840
<v Speaker 8>shot down by seven assassins. His victims were numbered in

520
00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:53.280
<v Speaker 8>the tens of thousands during.

521
00:30:53.120 --> 00:30:56.680
<v Speaker 2>Years high in Truhio was assassinated in nineteen sixty one,

522
00:30:57.040 --> 00:31:00.440
<v Speaker 2>but anti Haitianism didn't die along with him. I spoke

523
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.400
<v Speaker 2>with Joel Martin. He's a musician who teaches Afro Dominican

524
00:31:03.520 --> 00:31:06.400
<v Speaker 2>music at the National Conservatory, and he's a friend of

525
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.600
<v Speaker 2>mine from when I lived in the Dominican Republic many

526
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.200
<v Speaker 2>years ago. But most importantly for our purposes, he grew

527
00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:15.080
<v Speaker 2>up going to Dominican schools, which is where he learned

528
00:31:15.080 --> 00:31:16.560
<v Speaker 2>about Haiti and Haitians.

529
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:19.480
<v Speaker 6>But we're only taught about the moments that divide.

530
00:31:19.120 --> 00:31:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Us, like when the dr fought for independence against Haiti

531
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.520
<v Speaker 2>back in the eighteen hundreds.

532
00:31:23.760 --> 00:31:27.480
<v Speaker 6>They is really highlighted during the history lessons about how

533
00:31:27.560 --> 00:31:29.280
<v Speaker 6>they specifically.

534
00:31:28.760 --> 00:31:32.240
<v Speaker 2>They made the mention of cutting the heads of Dominicans.

535
00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:35.520
<v Speaker 2>The Haitian massacre that Rhio did in nineteen thirty seven

536
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.800
<v Speaker 2>is in the history textbooks today. It's not denied anymore,

537
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.400
<v Speaker 2>but Joel says, it's taught as a kind of footnote.

538
00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:46.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's something that bothers Edward, the historian we've been hearing.

539
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:50.720
<v Speaker 3>From nowhere in the Dominican Republic. Can you go and

540
00:31:50.800 --> 00:31:55.200
<v Speaker 3>there's a plaque for these thousands of men, women and

541
00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.760
<v Speaker 3>children who were slaughtered.

542
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:06.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not just that there's no plaque. There's no museum,

543
00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:11.160
<v Speaker 2>no memorial, no statue commemorating the massacre. Nothing. And Edward

544
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>has spent a lot of time thinking about the question,

545
00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:15.520
<v Speaker 2>well why not.

546
00:32:17.320 --> 00:32:20.160
<v Speaker 1>Coming up on Latino us say we try to answer

547
00:32:20.200 --> 00:33:06.040
<v Speaker 1>that question. So stay with us. Hey, we're back and

548
00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:09.479
<v Speaker 1>I'm here today with producer Marlon Bishop, and we're talking

549
00:33:09.520 --> 00:33:14.040
<v Speaker 1>about the Haitian Dominican Massacre of nineteen thirty seven. Now,

550
00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:18.080
<v Speaker 1>when we left off, historian Edward Paulino was asking this question,

551
00:33:18.800 --> 00:33:22.280
<v Speaker 1>how is it that, after eight decades, why isn't there

552
00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:24.920
<v Speaker 1>a single monument or a day of remembrance in the

553
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Dominican Republic for this massacre?

554
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So Edward Paulino, the Dominican American historian that we've

555
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.920
<v Speaker 2>been hearing from all hour, he has this mission to

556
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:36.840
<v Speaker 2>get the Dominican Republic, the country of his parents to

557
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.360
<v Speaker 2>confront the history of this massacre head on.

558
00:33:39.840 --> 00:33:43.640
<v Speaker 3>Dominicans are no different than their fellow citizens around the world,

559
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.120
<v Speaker 3>like the US. And how do you engage with the

560
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.840
<v Speaker 3>Confederate flag? Do you tear it down? Do you destroy it? Right?

561
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:51.680
<v Speaker 3>The statutes of Lee throughout the world.

562
00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Edward says that when it comes to the Haitian massacre,

563
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Dominicans are facing these really difficult universal questions.

564
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.760
<v Speaker 3>How the states and citizens bear witness? How do you

565
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:03.080
<v Speaker 3>reckon with the past.

566
00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:05.200
<v Speaker 2>And in the Dominican case.

567
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:10.759
<v Speaker 3>States has never apologized, it has never officially come out

568
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:14.759
<v Speaker 3>and engaged. And I think you have to talk. There

569
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:18.520
<v Speaker 3>has to be a catharsis.

570
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.080
<v Speaker 2>But not everyone shares that perspective.

571
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.160
<v Speaker 9>There's two volumes then talked to on the massacres.

572
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.480
<v Speaker 2>While I was in Santo Domingo, I visited Bernardo Vega.

573
00:34:27.680 --> 00:34:32.440
<v Speaker 2>How many books have you written by about Bernardo is

574
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:36.520
<v Speaker 2>one of the Dominican Republic's foremost historians. And among those

575
00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:39.160
<v Speaker 2>fifty two books that he just mentioned, there are two

576
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.440
<v Speaker 2>that are only about the relationship between Haiti and the DR.

577
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I visited him at home in this multi story penthouse

578
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.799
<v Speaker 2>apartment replete with a library of Dominican history books.

579
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.600
<v Speaker 9>So we are very upset the fact that time and

580
00:34:53.640 --> 00:34:57.359
<v Speaker 9>time again this issue of the massacres brought up, when

581
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.439
<v Speaker 9>it was something that the Dominican people, as society, we're

582
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.520
<v Speaker 9>never involved in. I don't think that bringing this up

583
00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:08.239
<v Speaker 9>again and again helps the Medican Haitian relations. I think

584
00:35:08.560 --> 00:35:14.080
<v Speaker 9>in Europe the Germans have been forgiven by what they

585
00:35:14.080 --> 00:35:14.920
<v Speaker 9>did to the Jews.

586
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:18.239
<v Speaker 2>He told me he thought that it's mostly foreign academics

587
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.160
<v Speaker 2>or journalists who seem to be always trying to bring

588
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:22.000
<v Speaker 2>up this massacre.

589
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.480
<v Speaker 9>There's nothing more to research. We don't bring it up.

590
00:35:27.040 --> 00:35:30.160
<v Speaker 9>Real did so many bad things, Why should we be

591
00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:31.399
<v Speaker 9>responsible for it?

592
00:35:35.040 --> 00:35:38.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I'm a bit surprised, because I mean,

593
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.279
<v Speaker 1>as a historian, I don't know. I think you kind

594
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.720
<v Speaker 1>of have to look at these things head on before

595
00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:48.400
<v Speaker 1>you can move forward. So I'm a little I'm a

596
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.640
<v Speaker 1>little surprised. I'm taking a back by that.

597
00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:52.959
<v Speaker 2>Well. I had the same feeling a little bit, because

598
00:35:53.120 --> 00:35:54.719
<v Speaker 2>historians are always saying, you know, if we don't talk

599
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.799
<v Speaker 2>about history, we're doomed to repeat the mistakes. And so

600
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:00.759
<v Speaker 2>I think his opinion comes from the perspective of someone

601
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.000
<v Speaker 2>who represents the Dominican nation. Also, you know the statesman

602
00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:06.719
<v Speaker 2>side of him, and he says, we want to move on,

603
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.439
<v Speaker 2>and this is Trujillo's fault alone, and it's ultimately talking

604
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.600
<v Speaker 2>about this is divisive, it's not helping.

605
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.520
<v Speaker 1>I guess what I'm getting from all of your reporting

606
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:16.840
<v Speaker 1>and from what I know is that it just hasn't

607
00:36:17.080 --> 00:36:18.319
<v Speaker 1>been talked about all that.

608
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Much exactly, and so the idea that there's no more

609
00:36:22.080 --> 00:36:24.759
<v Speaker 2>to research, on its face, that seems like it's not

610
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.120
<v Speaker 2>true because to this day, people are still arguing about

611
00:36:28.120 --> 00:36:33.359
<v Speaker 2>a basic part of the story, which is the numbers.

612
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:38.319
<v Speaker 2>There's huge disagreement about how many people were killed, from

613
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:41.840
<v Speaker 2>thirty thousand down to just a few thousand. Edward Paulino

614
00:36:42.120 --> 00:36:44.799
<v Speaker 2>uses a number around twelve thousand, which is what a

615
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Haitian bishop at the time came up with after interviewing

616
00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>refugees and asking them about their family members who didn't

617
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:54.560
<v Speaker 2>make it. Bernardo Vega, years later, wanted to try to

618
00:36:54.600 --> 00:36:58.520
<v Speaker 2>calculate his own numbers, based largely on digging into census data.

619
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.200
<v Speaker 9>In my studies, I estimate about between four and six thousand,

620
00:37:03.120 --> 00:37:05.520
<v Speaker 9>although I have to admit that there's never been found

621
00:37:05.640 --> 00:37:08.480
<v Speaker 9>any remains of Haitians in Dominican soil.

622
00:37:09.080 --> 00:37:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, wait, wait, hold up for a second. How is

623
00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:15.440
<v Speaker 1>it possible that they never found any any remains of

624
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Haitian victims after this massacre in the Dominican Republic.

625
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.919
<v Speaker 2>Nope, none. So what does it mean that bodies haven't

626
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:21.279
<v Speaker 2>been found?

627
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 9>Most likely well where there weren't that many. After Truhillo

628
00:37:25.640 --> 00:37:27.680
<v Speaker 9>was killed, there was a movement to try to find

629
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:30.760
<v Speaker 9>their tombs and do something, and nothing happened. Nothing appeared.

630
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Remember, people couldn't investigate until almost three decades after the massacre.

631
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.960
<v Speaker 2>And there are theories as to why bodies haven't turned up.

632
00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Some say they were burned to hide the evidence, or

633
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:42.920
<v Speaker 2>thrown into the sea.

634
00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 3>That's the perverseness of it all. We can't find them.

635
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Edward has another explanation of why nobody can find them.

636
00:37:49.680 --> 00:37:52.400
<v Speaker 2>When he was doing his dissertation research on the border

637
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.280
<v Speaker 2>in the nineties, he interviewed Dominicans who participated in the killings.

638
00:37:56.560 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 3>I asked, when I interviewed, I say, take me he

639
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.400
<v Speaker 3>goes in theys to me, No, no, no, there's a

640
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.080
<v Speaker 3>role there, or yeah, I can't find it, or you

641
00:38:04.120 --> 00:38:07.040
<v Speaker 3>know there's weeds. Yeah, you can't find it. You would think, oh,

642
00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:09.759
<v Speaker 3>there's a farmer. They're farming and they come up with

643
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:12.360
<v Speaker 3>a skull in the last seventy years. But part of

644
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.200
<v Speaker 3>the reason why if the farmer did find it is

645
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.880
<v Speaker 3>because of the culture of silence that the dictatorship bred

646
00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:22.280
<v Speaker 3>and that still remains as a residue.

647
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.320
<v Speaker 2>By culture of silence, he means that even if somebody

648
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.800
<v Speaker 2>did find a body, they probably wouldn't report it because

649
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.880
<v Speaker 2>there's still a lot of fear. Edward participates in a

650
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of diy commemoration of the massacre called Border of Lights,

651
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.600
<v Speaker 2>which happens on the border during the anniversary in October

652
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:43.839
<v Speaker 2>in the city of Dahabone. It's put together by an

653
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.879
<v Speaker 2>international group of scholars, activists, and writers, many of which

654
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.319
<v Speaker 2>are Dominican and Haitian Americans. And the first time they

655
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.680
<v Speaker 2>did it, he remembers going to a mass that was

656
00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:55.279
<v Speaker 2>held by the local Jesuit father.

657
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.160
<v Speaker 3>He says, I've been here more than twenty thirty years,

658
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.840
<v Speaker 3>and this is the first time when these young people

659
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:06.759
<v Speaker 3>organized to remember this, the first time it's been talked about,

660
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.560
<v Speaker 3>and he was telling in a mass, you know, talk

661
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:14.359
<v Speaker 3>it's okay through here is dead. Why the fear and

662
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.280
<v Speaker 3>we know why because the dr like many other post

663
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.719
<v Speaker 3>dictatorial nations around the world, and their citizens experience post

664
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:24.600
<v Speaker 3>traumatic stress.

665
00:39:25.160 --> 00:39:28.080
<v Speaker 2>To talk about the massacre, it's not just to talk

666
00:39:28.120 --> 00:39:30.560
<v Speaker 2>about the masacre. It's talking about all of Thru Hero's crimes,

667
00:39:30.600 --> 00:39:34.080
<v Speaker 2>and it's about really confronting this greater trauma of the

668
00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:38.239
<v Speaker 2>True Here years of exercising Trujillo's ghost once and for.

669
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:41.760
<v Speaker 3>All, I want to quickly remind you that in twenty fourteen,

670
00:39:42.080 --> 00:39:46.640
<v Speaker 3>there were about one hundred thousand Dominicans who gave their

671
00:39:46.680 --> 00:39:50.560
<v Speaker 3>signature in the list asking for a truth and reconciliation

672
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:54.600
<v Speaker 3>kind of commission for the crimes committed during the True

673
00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:59.440
<v Speaker 3>Hero dictatorship. There so yearning for them, and the eightieth anniversary,

674
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.919
<v Speaker 3>I think is a window to understanding all these questions.

675
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.080
<v Speaker 2>On one small scale, I feel like I did see

676
00:40:07.080 --> 00:40:10.920
<v Speaker 2>that reconciliation in action in the case of Nanci Badancis,

677
00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:14.520
<v Speaker 2>my Dominican guide at the border. While we were driving

678
00:40:14.520 --> 00:40:17.280
<v Speaker 2>from town to town looking for survivors for me to interview,

679
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I started to realize that in a way, she was

680
00:40:21.040 --> 00:40:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the story, not the survivors. Remember, Nancy's grandfather was in

681
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:28.160
<v Speaker 2>the military and killed Haitians during the massacre, and she

682
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.000
<v Speaker 2>confronts that past constantly. I asked her if she loved

683
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:33.080
<v Speaker 2>her grandfather.

684
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.160
<v Speaker 3>Hi clar Barami.

685
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:39.279
<v Speaker 2>Of course, she says, despite what he did, I had

686
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.879
<v Speaker 2>to love him. He was the father I never had. Yet,

687
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.480
<v Speaker 2>she rejects what her grandfather did and tries to make

688
00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:48.600
<v Speaker 2>amends for the crimes that her family committed by standing

689
00:40:48.680 --> 00:40:51.839
<v Speaker 2>up for Haitians in her town today and that has

690
00:40:51.880 --> 00:41:00.520
<v Speaker 2>had consequences. She told me a story. A few years back,

691
00:41:00.680 --> 00:41:05.040
<v Speaker 2>a Haitian in her hometown killed a Dominican. Some days

692
00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:07.879
<v Speaker 2>after that, people in town killed a Haitian man as

693
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:16.279
<v Speaker 2>a reprisals. Es after that, a nationalist anti Haitian group

694
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:19.280
<v Speaker 2>called the Defenders of the People put together a mob

695
00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:22.120
<v Speaker 2>to go out and try to force all the Haitians

696
00:41:22.120 --> 00:41:25.680
<v Speaker 2>in town and the surrounding countryside to leave. News reports

697
00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:33.440
<v Speaker 2>from the time say they were armed with sticks and bats.

698
00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:36.480
<v Speaker 2>The leader of this anti Haitian group knew that Nancy

699
00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:40.520
<v Speaker 2>worked helping Haitians and he threatened her not to show

700
00:41:40.520 --> 00:41:43.040
<v Speaker 2>her face in town. She had to pull her son

701
00:41:43.080 --> 00:41:46.560
<v Speaker 2>out of school, and she says the nationalists also threatened

702
00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:54.279
<v Speaker 2>to burn her house down, but Nancy wasn't intimidated. She says.

703
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.840
<v Speaker 2>She worked with an NGO to continue to help Haitians,

704
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.160
<v Speaker 2>and she helped the Haitian family get out of town

705
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:01.600
<v Speaker 2>that was trapped in their house under threat from the

706
00:42:01.640 --> 00:42:04.680
<v Speaker 2>angry mob. She helped send police to town to get

707
00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:07.759
<v Speaker 2>the people threatening the family to leave. And as she

708
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:14.279
<v Speaker 2>tells this story, Nancy starts to get visibly emotional. Now

709
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.440
<v Speaker 2>people say that my grandfather defended the country, she says,

710
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.960
<v Speaker 2>and they attack me because I'm defending a cause that

711
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Speaker 2>they believe I shouldn't be and it hurts. While we

712
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.919
<v Speaker 2>were out on the road, Nancy wanted to make sure

713
00:42:45.040 --> 00:42:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I got a chance to meet a man that could

714
00:42:47.560 --> 00:42:51.680
<v Speaker 2>help explain how the massacre is connected to this dynamic

715
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.120
<v Speaker 2>today between Haitians and Dominicans, the dynamic that leads the

716
00:42:55.160 --> 00:42:56.960
<v Speaker 2>situations like the story she just told.

717
00:42:57.520 --> 00:43:00.160
<v Speaker 3>Rehino Martinez Bredon.

718
00:43:00.080 --> 00:43:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Padre Rahimo is the Jesuit father in Dajabone. He's been

719
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.279
<v Speaker 2>an outspoken supporter of civil rights for Haitian immigrants, and

720
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:10.719
<v Speaker 2>he says there's a reason why Dominicans don't want to

721
00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:15.360
<v Speaker 2>talk about the massacre Desil DVD is it's a classic

722
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:24.960
<v Speaker 2>divide and conquer situation. He says, like de differ Haitians today.

723
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:28.759
<v Speaker 2>He explains work for low wages and in poor conditions

724
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:32.160
<v Speaker 2>in the Dominican Republic, for example, in the sugarcane fields,

725
00:43:32.200 --> 00:43:35.960
<v Speaker 2>in construction as domestic help. All throughout the Dominican Republic,

726
00:43:36.200 --> 00:43:39.799
<v Speaker 2>Haitians are everywhere in those fields, and Padre Rahmo's take

727
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.120
<v Speaker 2>is that it's in the interest of the country is

728
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:45.719
<v Speaker 2>rich to keep Dominicans and Haitians thinking of each other

729
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.839
<v Speaker 2>as enemies, because that makes it easier to exploit these

730
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Haitian workers. And so even years after Truhio is gone,

731
00:43:54.040 --> 00:43:57.800
<v Speaker 2>his anti Haitian ideology is still convenient for those in power.

732
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.600
<v Speaker 2>Dominicans can love and defend their Haitian neighbors privately, but

733
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:08.120
<v Speaker 2>they don't dare to support Haitians publicly, and so they

734
00:44:08.160 --> 00:44:08.960
<v Speaker 2>fall into step.

735
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.120
<v Speaker 1>So, Marlin, you kind of went down the rabbit hole

736
00:44:16.160 --> 00:44:18.759
<v Speaker 1>with this story of the Haitian Dominican border. Do you

737
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.759
<v Speaker 1>feel like you've kind of figured it out in the end,

738
00:44:21.200 --> 00:44:23.680
<v Speaker 1>and is there an understanding now of why it's worthwhile

739
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:26.000
<v Speaker 1>for all of us to study an event like this

740
00:44:26.120 --> 00:44:26.960
<v Speaker 1>in world history?

741
00:44:27.160 --> 00:44:29.560
<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, I went into the story. I guess from

742
00:44:29.600 --> 00:44:32.880
<v Speaker 2>an American perspective, you know, thinking about our own border dramas,

743
00:44:33.120 --> 00:44:35.000
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to ask the question of how did

744
00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:38.239
<v Speaker 2>things get so bad on the Dominican Haitian border that

745
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:39.560
<v Speaker 2>they led to this massacre?

746
00:44:39.640 --> 00:44:39.839
<v Speaker 5>Right?

747
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:42.600
<v Speaker 2>And I think in the end, the massacre was through

748
00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Hero's way of marking the border in blood. And this

749
00:44:46.560 --> 00:44:50.040
<v Speaker 2>division was made in such a violent way that afterwards

750
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.600
<v Speaker 2>it kind of made it seem that Dominicans and Haitians

751
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.480
<v Speaker 2>had always been at each other's throats, which isn't the

752
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:58.520
<v Speaker 2>full truth at all. Edward Paulino puts it this way.

753
00:44:58.680 --> 00:45:02.440
<v Speaker 3>Chichimanda the right talks about that there's one lie and

754
00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:05.040
<v Speaker 3>one story and one narrative, and that's it. Dominicans and

755
00:45:05.080 --> 00:45:07.359
<v Speaker 3>Hasians have not gone on longman. Dominicans, hey Haitians. Well,

756
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:09.160
<v Speaker 3>if you go to the border region, it's not just

757
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:14.360
<v Speaker 3>about wars and massacres, but it's also about these two

758
00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:17.120
<v Speaker 3>peoples coming together and sometimes making one people.

759
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:19.600
<v Speaker 2>And so I start thinking about this idea of what

760
00:45:19.640 --> 00:45:21.799
<v Speaker 2>makes up a nation or people, and that it has

761
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.880
<v Speaker 2>so much to do with the stories we tell ourselves

762
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:27.160
<v Speaker 2>about who we are, and in the case of the

763
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:31.160
<v Speaker 2>dr the story that Trhio promoted and to some extent

764
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:34.560
<v Speaker 2>just keeps being told today is that Dominicans and Haitians

765
00:45:34.600 --> 00:45:37.799
<v Speaker 2>are these eternal enemies. As Edward said, you know that

766
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Haitians are invaders in one way or another throughout history.

767
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.200
<v Speaker 2>And the massacre in nineteen thirty seven of Haitians who

768
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:46.680
<v Speaker 2>are these long term residents of the border era and

769
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:50.600
<v Speaker 2>who are living peacefully alongside their Dominican neighbors. That tells

770
00:45:50.600 --> 00:45:54.160
<v Speaker 2>a different story, and that's why it's rejected, because it's

771
00:45:54.160 --> 00:45:55.840
<v Speaker 2>hard to fit those two stories together.

772
00:45:56.120 --> 00:45:58.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, Marlon, I've been going to the Dominican Republic

773
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:00.680
<v Speaker 1>for twenty five years.

774
00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:03.560
<v Speaker 2>And this is because your husband's Dominican and your kids

775
00:46:03.600 --> 00:46:05.040
<v Speaker 2>are half Dominican exactly.

776
00:46:05.160 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 1>And when I'm there living it, I do see that

777
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:11.640
<v Speaker 1>people are getting along and that people have these relationships

778
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:14.560
<v Speaker 1>and that you know, the borders between people get really

779
00:46:14.600 --> 00:46:18.640
<v Speaker 1>fuzzy in the Dominican Republic. But I also know that

780
00:46:18.680 --> 00:46:20.680
<v Speaker 1>there are people that say things that I have heard

781
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.400
<v Speaker 1>come out of their mouths that are shocking. So like

782
00:46:24.560 --> 00:46:27.160
<v Speaker 1>both things exist at the same time.

783
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think when this kind of all clicked

784
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.680
<v Speaker 2>for me was while I was on the border and

785
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I was driving with Nanci Betanzis. You know, she's the

786
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.279
<v Speaker 2>woman we've been hearing from whose grandfather was involved in

787
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:41.319
<v Speaker 2>the massacre as a killer, and she wanted to show

788
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:44.759
<v Speaker 2>me this one place. We were driving through the mountains near

789
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.719
<v Speaker 2>the border, and we took this little road and all

790
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.799
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden we turn a corner and there's this

791
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.319
<v Speaker 2>thing in front of us in this clearing. So here

792
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:56.560
<v Speaker 2>I am in what feels like the absolute middle of nowhere,

793
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:04.640
<v Speaker 2>and there's this completely giant monument. It's like huge cement structure,

794
00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:07.160
<v Speaker 2>at least one hundred feet tall, and it was really

795
00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:10.320
<v Speaker 2>just kind of stunning. In a big clearing in the forest.

796
00:47:10.520 --> 00:47:15.120
<v Speaker 2>There's this huge, kind of brutalist thing, two giant pieces

797
00:47:15.160 --> 00:47:19.280
<v Speaker 2>of cement on a raised platform, one horizontal and one vertical,

798
00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:23.040
<v Speaker 2>with a bronze relief depicting this battle. And Nancy explained

799
00:47:23.040 --> 00:47:26.239
<v Speaker 2>to me that this monument is a monument to the

800
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:30.840
<v Speaker 2>War of the Restoration, which celebrates not the wars between

801
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Haitians and Dominicans, but another event where Haitians and Dominicans

802
00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:37.640
<v Speaker 2>work together to kick out the Spanish who had taken

803
00:47:37.680 --> 00:47:39.680
<v Speaker 2>control of the dr for a few years, starting in

804
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:43.680
<v Speaker 2>eighteen sixty one, and it struck me that this monument

805
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:47.560
<v Speaker 2>represented this whole other possible narrative, not of Haitians and

806
00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Dominicans in this eternal fight with each other, but as

807
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.560
<v Speaker 2>good neighbors, as people working together towards a common goal.

808
00:47:55.760 --> 00:48:00.279
<v Speaker 2>And just like the massacre itself, it's kind of hidden

809
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.600
<v Speaker 2>away in the forest, you know, kind of just out

810
00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:03.000
<v Speaker 2>of sight.

811
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your reporting, Marrow, Thanks for you,

812
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.759
<v Speaker 1>dear listener. Before we end the show, we want to

813
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.560
<v Speaker 1>share with you some pretty extraordinary news. Juan Castillo, an

814
00:48:27.600 --> 00:48:31.920
<v Speaker 1>immigrant from En Salvador whose story we recently featured, is

815
00:48:32.040 --> 00:48:36.319
<v Speaker 1>now a freeman. After more than five years under iceed

816
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:40.240
<v Speaker 1>attention and twenty five years in prison for a crime

817
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:44.200
<v Speaker 1>he says he didn't commit. Juan Castillo was granted relief

818
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:48.440
<v Speaker 1>under the Convention against Torture and has been allowed to

819
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:52.200
<v Speaker 1>remain in the US, the place he calls home. You

820
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.560
<v Speaker 1>can listen to his story, The Elusive Freedom of Juan

821
00:48:55.680 --> 00:48:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Castillo on latinousa dot org or look for it on

822
00:48:59.560 --> 00:49:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the Latin USA feed wherever you get your podcasts. This

823
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:18.400
<v Speaker 1>is what accountability journalism looks like. This episode was produced

824
00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:21.920
<v Speaker 1>by Marlon Bishop and edited by Nadia Raimond. It was

825
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:26.480
<v Speaker 1>mixed by Stephanie Lebau. The Latino USA team includes Andrea

826
00:49:26.560 --> 00:49:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Lopez Cruzalo Marta Martinez, Daisy Contreras, Mike Sargent, Julia Ta Martinei,

827
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanos, Junior Alejandra Sarassa, Patricia Sulbaran and

828
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Julia Rocha, with help from Raul Perez. Our editorial director

829
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:47.160
<v Speaker 1>is Julio Ricardo Brena. Our senior engineer is Julia Caruso.

830
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Our associate engineers are gabriel A Biez and jj Carubin.

831
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Our digital editor is Luis Luna. Our fellows are Elisa Veena,

832
00:49:55.080 --> 00:49:59.120
<v Speaker 1>Monica Morales and Andrew Vignandiz. Our theme music was composed

833
00:49:59.160 --> 00:50:02.720
<v Speaker 1>by Zane Vino. I'm your host and executive producer Marienno Horsad.

834
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Join us again on our next episode. In the meantime,

835
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.040
<v Speaker 1>look for us on all of your social media. I'll

836
00:50:08.040 --> 00:50:11.839
<v Speaker 1>see you there, yak where that day bye.

837
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 4>Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising

838
00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:25.600
<v Speaker 4>Simons Foundation, Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities. More at hsfoundation

839
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.040
<v Speaker 4>dot org. Wk Kellogg Foundation, a partner with communities where

840
00:50:31.200 --> 00:50:36.719
<v Speaker 4>children come first, and the Ford Foundation working with visionaries

841
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.400
<v Speaker 4>on the front lines of social change worldwide.

842
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Yak, where that day a Gwhere that day yac, Where

843
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<v Speaker 1>day