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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to a bonus episode of parent Data. Today, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>revisiting an interview I did earlier this year with Micah

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<v Speaker 1>Barnhardt where we talked about her book More. It's about motherhood, marriage,

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<v Speaker 1>and why it's harder to be a parent than an

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<v Speaker 1>Ice Climber. The audiobook is just out, so at the

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<v Speaker 1>top of this episode you'll hear three clips from the

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<v Speaker 1>book that will put our interview in a little more context. Enjoy.

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<v Speaker 2>September tenth, twenty sixteen, Audio Journal, ten weeks and four

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<v Speaker 2>days old. Today, my mom called and announced that she's

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<v Speaker 2>finally decided to find a new therapist. I'm tired of

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<v Speaker 2>feeling so damn angry, she said. My mom doesn't believe

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<v Speaker 2>in FaceTime, which is good. I can make approving noises

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<v Speaker 2>and she doesn't have to know I'm crying. I love her,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to wait until I'm seventy one

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<v Speaker 2>to stop being angry. You know that's saying you and

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<v Speaker 2>Peter have. My mom asked, want to train? Is the

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<v Speaker 2>top thing Peter and I ask each other these days.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm pretty sure that is not what my mom meant.

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<v Speaker 2>Your sister stitched it on the quilt square she added

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<v Speaker 2>to the stole we all made for your wedding, she said,

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<v Speaker 2>I think of it all the time. From judgment to Love,

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<v Speaker 2>I cried more. Maybe Mom at seventy one and me

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<v Speaker 2>at thirty nine are more alike than I ever want

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<v Speaker 2>to admit. From judgment to love, From judgment to love.

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<v Speaker 2>As I go about my day, I repeat it like

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<v Speaker 2>a mental string of rosary beads. It doesn't work. Being

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<v Speaker 2>the daughter of two laps Catholics is not in my favor.

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<v Speaker 2>All I feel is judgment and anger. They are becoming

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<v Speaker 2>my default. I feel them when he leaves the toilet

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<v Speaker 2>set up and I collapse on the skinny rim of

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<v Speaker 2>the bowl because I still can't control my abdominals to

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<v Speaker 2>squat that low. When he tells me how tired he

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<v Speaker 2>is while scrolling through his phone or computer, and while

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<v Speaker 2>I nurse two humans, when he says he doesn't feel

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<v Speaker 2>he can be with both kids alone after he comes

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<v Speaker 2>home from work, and it's what I've been doing all day.

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<v Speaker 2>But he cooks my eggs to runny, and when I

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<v Speaker 2>have to depend on him to cook them in the

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<v Speaker 2>first place, breathe, Micah. Control your own reactions start there.

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<v Speaker 2>From judgment to love. I don't want to feel like

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<v Speaker 2>shit and be angry at Peter. I have to give

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<v Speaker 2>him my best. I am scared that he won't show

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<v Speaker 2>up and give me the same. And if he doesn't,

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<v Speaker 2>if he never steps up, or if he does and

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<v Speaker 2>I don't see it or it's not enough, or if

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<v Speaker 2>I can never stop being angry, then what And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>desperately scared that Peter won't step up and it will

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<v Speaker 2>be like it was with my first husband, Eddie. I

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<v Speaker 2>chose against that first marriage. I don't want to choose

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<v Speaker 2>against this one. February eighth, twenty sixteen, letter and three

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<v Speaker 2>days pregnant, deer Toots and Magoots. Those are not your names.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't worry. I promise we will have better ones picked

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<v Speaker 2>out by the time you make your debut in June,

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<v Speaker 2>because even though you were due July ninth, no one

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<v Speaker 2>is going to let us get past June thirtieth. Last

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<v Speaker 2>week I found out you're a boy and girl, and

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<v Speaker 2>it seemed like the right time to write your first letter. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it's one letter for both of you. You might as

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<v Speaker 2>well get used to sharing from the start. I have

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<v Speaker 2>not been eagerly waiting to be a mother I'm thirty nine,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've been focused on doing everything else instead. Last

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<v Speaker 2>year had me ringing in the new year on top

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<v Speaker 2>of Patagonias, Fitzroy, leading a thirty eight person symposium about

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<v Speaker 2>how to disrupt traditional conservation work, spending two months working

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<v Speaker 2>three back to back stints in Ethiopia and Mozambique, climbing

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<v Speaker 2>the most difficult ice of my life at home in

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<v Speaker 2>New Hampshire, writing a proposal for my third book, taking

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<v Speaker 2>five weeks to climb perfect alpine granite and Shamany with

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<v Speaker 2>your Dad, and finishing a film that has been four

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<v Speaker 2>years in the making. I've been busy. I like being busy. Theoretically,

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<v Speaker 2>it's been possible for me to become a mom for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a long time to choose to pursue things that

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<v Speaker 2>are not what most people dub the greatest role you

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<v Speaker 2>can have in life. For me, I've been on the

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<v Speaker 2>fence about becoming a parent, not because of you, because

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<v Speaker 2>of me. For most of my career, people have told

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<v Speaker 2>me that if I were to have children that I

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<v Speaker 2>would have to change my life, stop traveling, tone down

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<v Speaker 2>my climbing, and basically give up my ability to create

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<v Speaker 2>and expand Each time someone told me any of that,

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to punch them. But I have it, and

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<v Speaker 2>neither should you. Ever. Instead, I've chosen to stand taller

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<v Speaker 2>and stronger against such limiting beliefs or I did in theory,

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<v Speaker 2>and now it's time for reality. In fact, the only

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<v Speaker 2>way your dad and I could get to the place

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<v Speaker 2>of trying to have a baby was to tell ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>it was possible for us to become parents and not

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<v Speaker 2>lose ourselves in the process. Then again, that's likely what

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<v Speaker 2>every parent tells himself before they step off the high dive.

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<v Speaker 2>But you are not a baby, and I'm the first

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<v Speaker 2>one laughing about the irony of it all. You are

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<v Speaker 2>entering a bold and beautiful world. I have spent my

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<v Speaker 2>time in it hurdling my beliefs, passions, and curiosity up

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<v Speaker 2>against each other, and in fact have made this my career.

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<v Speaker 2>It has not always worked. Sometimes I ache for a

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<v Speaker 2>more normal trajectory, but when it does work, it catches

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<v Speaker 2>my breath and grounds my soul in a way that

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<v Speaker 2>makes me know I belong in the universe. You too,

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<v Speaker 2>are not the normal way. When I reflect on the

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<v Speaker 2>most important, striking heart in stomach, things I've ever done.

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<v Speaker 2>They have always been the result of doing what people

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<v Speaker 2>would call too much. I general contracted my dream house

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<v Speaker 2>at age twenty two. I put up first ascents on

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<v Speaker 2>sandstone towers in Ethiopia as my first climbs back from

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<v Speaker 2>shoulder surgery, and I kept driving in a nor'easter that

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<v Speaker 2>shut down the Eastern Seaboard, making it to North Conway

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<v Speaker 2>on a bet to myself that it would matter and

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<v Speaker 2>end up falling in love with your dad. As you

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<v Speaker 2>grow inside me, I know you will be the pinnacle

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<v Speaker 2>of what I have done and will do. I know

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<v Speaker 2>you're like your mama because already in utero I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell your team twin motto is more. You make me

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<v Speaker 2>pee eight times a night, eat double the amount of

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<v Speaker 2>pork I'd ever thought previously possible, and cry with something

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<v Speaker 2>I can only know as the biggest love I've ever felt.

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<v Speaker 2>And all of that we fit right in together. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not saying I have this figured out. You can't get

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<v Speaker 2>to be my age and see your sister, cousins, strangers,

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<v Speaker 2>and friends go through parenthood and think anyone ever has

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<v Speaker 2>it figured out. While we may never figured out entirely,

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<v Speaker 2>somehow we're going to this bold and beautiful world together.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't wait to see what more looks like with you.

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<v Speaker 2>August twenty seventh, twenty sixteen, Audio Journal, eight weeks and

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<v Speaker 2>four days old. No one told me not to bring

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<v Speaker 2>a stroller to boot group. No one told me either

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<v Speaker 2>that you were supposed to cover your boobs at boot group.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's impossible to nurse the two of you covered,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's also the last thing I want to learn

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<v Speaker 2>how to do. It's also impossible to extract a double

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<v Speaker 2>stroller from the back of a small room. Once fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>nursing mothers, their infants, and other miscellaneous toddlers have filled

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<v Speaker 2>it up. We are like a small semi truck everywhere

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<v Speaker 2>we go, or a double wide or and shoes. Before

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<v Speaker 2>I am done, we have to talk about the shoes.

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<v Speaker 2>I had a box of fourteen pairs of hand me

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<v Speaker 2>down shoes for infants, which I've already given away. Who

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<v Speaker 2>in the world put shoes on babies? The women at

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<v Speaker 2>boob Group, each and every one of them. May thirteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty From the notepad. Three years and ten months old, Mama,

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<v Speaker 2>how much older until I die? Kaz asks I reach

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<v Speaker 2>for his foot behind me in the car so many years.

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<v Speaker 2>I say, until I die, I have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>growing to do. Write Mama, right, Kaz, I say, let's

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<v Speaker 2>focus on the living.

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<v Speaker 1>I am so delighted to welcome Michael Barheart. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining me.

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<v Speaker 2>It's awesome to be here, Emily.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're here to talk about your book more.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have to say I was very skeptical when

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<v Speaker 1>you reached out because I expected this to be a

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<v Speaker 1>book about rock climbing, which is antivity that I think

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<v Speaker 1>is very scary, and as a result, I thought that

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<v Speaker 1>I would just be too scared and not be able

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<v Speaker 1>to relate. But actually the book is almost uncomfortably relatable.

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<v Speaker 3>Alex, who works with me, and I were talking about how.

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<v Speaker 1>We both you really couldn't put it, couldn't put it down,

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<v Speaker 1>even at moments when we thought, oh, I kind of ah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm feeling this a little too much because it's not

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<v Speaker 1>really a book about climbing so much. It's really about

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<v Speaker 1>parenting and partnering when your parent and that conflict and

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<v Speaker 1>all all that stuff, and so we're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>into that, and that's really where I want to focus.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's so relatable to so many parents. But

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<v Speaker 1>first I want to ask you this sort of basic

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<v Speaker 1>book question, which is, you know, can you tell us

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<v Speaker 1>in your own words, what is this book, why did

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<v Speaker 1>you write it?

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<v Speaker 3>And what do you hope people will get out of it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I love hearing that that it was like kind

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<v Speaker 2>of itchy and close to you, because I mean, really,

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<v Speaker 2>for me, this book was how I survived being pregnant

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<v Speaker 2>and then being a mom to young twins. And I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't set out to write this book. I wrote this

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<v Speaker 2>book like the way a teenager turns to their journal

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<v Speaker 2>to try to like understand what the heck is going

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<v Speaker 2>on in their life. And that's really what this book

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<v Speaker 2>was for me as a you know, when I was

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<v Speaker 2>becoming a mom, and then in my early years of

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<v Speaker 2>being a mom, and my kids are still really little.

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<v Speaker 2>They're six and a half right now, so I'm still

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<v Speaker 2>at the very beginning of this journey. But I felt

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<v Speaker 2>like I had this fiery ball of unknown and anks

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<v Speaker 2>I needed a place to put it, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>put it in writing, and eventually I looked at it

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<v Speaker 2>and said, oh, I think, actually, what if I stitched

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<v Speaker 2>that together? What if this was something I was willing

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<v Speaker 2>to share with other people? What they relate is this

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<v Speaker 2>a similar experience? Because I really felt like I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to have like those were the conversations I was dying

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<v Speaker 2>to have with anybody I met on the street. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'd see some random mom and I'd be like, no,

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<v Speaker 2>flipping way is it this hard? I had no idea, Right,

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, who knew that all this stuff was gonna

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<v Speaker 2>cascade and feel like this? And how do I find

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<v Speaker 2>my way to being a dialogue about it? So in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways the book was really selfishly that's what it

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<v Speaker 2>was for me. But it's you know, it's the story

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<v Speaker 2>of me balancing becoming a mom, thinking that I could

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<v Speaker 2>have sort of one kid and just mesh them into

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<v Speaker 2>my lives and instead having two at one time and

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<v Speaker 2>having the universe say guess who's in charge, trying to

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<v Speaker 2>do it with a really dynamic career between being a

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<v Speaker 2>professional climber and also growing a major international nonprofit and

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<v Speaker 2>trying not to take my marriage. Yeah, and so far,

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<v Speaker 2>so far, so good.

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<v Speaker 1>You're still married, you still have two children, you still

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<v Speaker 1>have a job, so check check yeah, check check check check.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, it's all We're We're all great.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no problem is super easy.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's interesting about the book is it's written entirely

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<v Speaker 1>in these form of sort of audio journals and journal

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<v Speaker 1>entries that you wrote I presumed, unless you're a very

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<v Speaker 1>good faker, that you wrote at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, at the time. And I was curious because

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<v Speaker 2>it's it makes.

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<v Speaker 1>The reading of it so very raw in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that I think it wouldn't be if you had written

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<v Speaker 1>this in a more traditional book form where you looked

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<v Speaker 1>back at those and use those as material, but then

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<v Speaker 1>you surface them through the experience that you have several

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<v Speaker 1>years later.

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<v Speaker 2>Why did you do it?

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<v Speaker 1>Like I did you ever consider the more traditional like

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<v Speaker 1>I'll use this this source material and then write a

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<v Speaker 1>more regular memoiry kind of book.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I never considered that because I was just really

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<v Speaker 2>fascinated with the integrity of Like I remember playing myself

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<v Speaker 2>back these audio recordings when I thought like, maybe i'll

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<v Speaker 2>type these out, see what it's about, And I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>that has to something has to happen with these, Like

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<v Speaker 2>maybe it's just that my children are going to listen

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<v Speaker 2>to them one day. It's like this first person account,

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<v Speaker 2>and why do we need to change it? Why should

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<v Speaker 2>Because I think when we do retrospectives, everything gets a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit blurred and it gets a little it's all

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<v Speaker 2>like very lovely, and we kind of round the edges

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. It's like, well, I probably wasn't that mad,

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<v Speaker 2>and it probably was like generally okay, and now I

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<v Speaker 2>have wisdom because I've had better sleep and all these things.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you're in the middle of it, when you're

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<v Speaker 2>just in the hot mess of it, like if that's

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<v Speaker 2>where you're trying to speak to and that's the thing

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<v Speaker 2>that I would have loved to have the like as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, those are the conversations I would to have.

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<v Speaker 2>Like to me, it was more important to sit right

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<v Speaker 2>there on the hot mess of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it is. It is hot mess.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, when you look back on this period and

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<v Speaker 1>the stuff you wrote about, is there one sort of

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<v Speaker 1>entry or moment in the book where you would say

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<v Speaker 1>this was not the low but like encapsulates the hot

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<v Speaker 1>and hot messiness.

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<v Speaker 2>Of this experience. It's a good question. Wow. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that things got really really tricky for me when my

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<v Speaker 2>kids reached about two two and a half and suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying to you know, they're having all these big

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<v Speaker 2>emotions and words and you know, I all of a

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<v Speaker 2>sudden realized that when I was at that age, my

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<v Speaker 2>parents were splitting up, and I would like, I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>sit in the moment as a mom and try to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, tell my kids how to be angry and

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<v Speaker 2>help them understand that anger was an okay thing without

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<v Speaker 2>realizing that I never had that skill set given to

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<v Speaker 2>me when my family was blowing apart, and at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time, I was dealing with a ton of anger

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<v Speaker 2>and resentment towards my husband, which I knew wasn't entirely

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<v Speaker 2>healthy or entirely appropriately directed, but I just couldn't figure

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<v Speaker 2>out what to do about it. And I think, like

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<v Speaker 2>being at like like the ven Diagram of hell, that

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<v Speaker 2>that was was really really hard for me, right, Like

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<v Speaker 2>we always think about like this ven diagrams, like oh

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<v Speaker 2>all these things are related. It's like no, no, Like

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<v Speaker 2>it was too much, and I was like, how do

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<v Speaker 2>I do this? And how do I do it while

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<v Speaker 2>trying to be like a really patient, lovely mom who

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<v Speaker 2>can say, yes, I've got you, I'm here for all

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<v Speaker 2>of your emotions, and like find a way to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to my husband and say I feel like this and

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<v Speaker 2>I know it's not it's not entirely okay, but something

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<v Speaker 2>about this is wrong and we need to fix it.

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<v Speaker 2>And holy god, how do I under reparent myself? Like

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<v Speaker 2>what are the tools that I have so that I

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<v Speaker 2>can show up as a different parent to my kiddos?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's so much in them.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that's so hard about that is this realization

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<v Speaker 1>that oh, I, like I need to parent differently than

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<v Speaker 1>I was parented and I don't have those resources.

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<v Speaker 3>Comes in the moment that you need it, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a year out before I have a child and

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<v Speaker 1>I think, okay, let me fix all of my issues

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<v Speaker 1>so I don't pass them to my kid.

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<v Speaker 3>It's the moment where you think, oh my goodness, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>a pass in.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pass in it right now and there's no time

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<v Speaker 1>to figure and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Had no idea. I thought of it so much more

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<v Speaker 2>intellectually before. It's like, oh yeah, like you know, I

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00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:14.280
<v Speaker 2>see that my parents did this, and here's why I

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00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.040
<v Speaker 2>want to carry on Like like like you get a

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00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.080
<v Speaker 2>choice in the matter, right, But it is not you

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00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.760
<v Speaker 2>are just like like the I don't know, like the

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00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>giant bowling ball is coming out and you can't get

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<v Speaker 2>out of the way, and you're just like, Okay, here

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00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:26.680
<v Speaker 2>we go. How I'm going to do this? And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how do I keep You know, it's kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>the repair concept, like how do I try? How do

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00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:32.720
<v Speaker 2>I biff? How do I go back to my kids

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<v Speaker 2>the people around me and say, yeah, I'm trying. I'm learning.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to do something that I don't have the

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<v Speaker 2>muscle memory for. So I'm trying to create muscle memory

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00:15:39.520 --> 00:15:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and emotional memory my kiddos while I'm doing it for myself.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to ask about the spousal stuff because that

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00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:48.160
<v Speaker 1>is something that you know, that's a big piece of

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<v Speaker 1>this book, and it's it's one I was interesting because

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00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:53.440
<v Speaker 1>if you look at the data the first year, first

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00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.440
<v Speaker 1>few years of having kids, it's typically the low point

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<v Speaker 1>in the data for people's marriages. You sometimes they say,

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00:15:59.160 --> 00:16:01.080
<v Speaker 1>like it does rek covering the data by the time

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<v Speaker 1>you have grandchildren, so that's you know, something to look

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<v Speaker 1>forward to.

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00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.080
<v Speaker 2>It it's not like it's like three years apart. Okay,

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00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:08.760
<v Speaker 2>that's hysterical.

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<v Speaker 1>And I remember this from my own sort of for

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00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:14.440
<v Speaker 1>my own marriages, like that year being the most conflict

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00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.200
<v Speaker 1>that that we had, more so than the pandemic, or

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00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.040
<v Speaker 1>the arrival of the second child, or when we had

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00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.720
<v Speaker 1>to move across the country, like all of these other disruptions,

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00:16:21.760 --> 00:16:25.160
<v Speaker 1>I felt like were we were much more on on

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00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:29.480
<v Speaker 1>a team about and the beginning of parenting had in

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<v Speaker 1>some ways less like weirdly less of a team feel

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00:16:34.680 --> 00:16:37.520
<v Speaker 1>because I was so there was so much on sertain.

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00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure what exactly what is, but I think

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<v Speaker 1>it resonates with with.

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00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.240
<v Speaker 3>A lot of people.

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<v Speaker 1>But the thing is that when I look back on that,

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<v Speaker 1>I can say, well, you know, that was really hard,

338
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:49.600
<v Speaker 1>but I don't remember all the details, like I remember

339
00:16:49.640 --> 00:16:52.440
<v Speaker 1>one particular incident involving the rock and play sleeper and napping,

340
00:16:52.920 --> 00:16:56.120
<v Speaker 1>But other than that, it is this rounded edges, you know,

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00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:01.440
<v Speaker 1>and and I don't relive it with frequency, and of

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00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.920
<v Speaker 1>course writing it in this way you do relive it

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<v Speaker 1>with frequency. So I was first wondering, you know, how

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<v Speaker 1>did that go? Like how hard was it to have

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00:17:10.840 --> 00:17:11.399
<v Speaker 1>him read that?

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<v Speaker 2>Man? It was super hard to be honest right, like

347
00:17:15.080 --> 00:17:20.399
<v Speaker 2>it is you know, this was not something that was

348
00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.040
<v Speaker 2>really fun to share, to be like, hey, here are

349
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.200
<v Speaker 2>my inner workings. But it also seemed to me really

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<v Speaker 2>important to say if we're really in this to win it.

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<v Speaker 2>If we're really this team in the long run, then

352
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<v Speaker 2>if you don't know that this is where I was

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<v Speaker 2>at during this point, are we really being transparent right, like,

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<v Speaker 2>and not to try to push us to a cliff,

355
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.119
<v Speaker 2>but to just be like, this is how hard it was,

356
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<v Speaker 2>and this is how scared I was. You know, Peter

357
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.200
<v Speaker 2>knew I was working on the book after a certain point,

358
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.879
<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't for years because I didn't know I

359
00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.400
<v Speaker 2>was working on a book. It was really not until

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00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:52.680
<v Speaker 2>like the kids were like three and a half that

361
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:54.560
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, I think this is actually going

362
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<v Speaker 2>to be a book, right, And then I like spent

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<v Speaker 2>the next year like writing and putting it together and

364
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<v Speaker 2>then sending it. Than it was like, well, I guess

365
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:03.639
<v Speaker 2>it is a book. And I think that for me,

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<v Speaker 2>it was more important to show up who I am

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<v Speaker 2>to my spouse than it was to mute that and

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<v Speaker 2>to like take the risk. And it's been hard. I

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00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.880
<v Speaker 2>mean it's been bumpy. Like I am married to someone

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<v Speaker 2>who's very private, right, and like that is not his dream.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, Yay, let's write a book about the hardest

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<v Speaker 2>part of our lives, and let's not even do it

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<v Speaker 2>in retrospective with like some nice blurring and some great

374
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.720
<v Speaker 2>morals of every It's just like, let's be in the

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00:18:32.800 --> 00:18:35.479
<v Speaker 2>shit of it and really show people what that felt like.

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<v Speaker 2>But to me, I'm like, yeah, but what about the

377
00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:40.600
<v Speaker 2>gift that we can give other people to be like

378
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm not alone? Right? Because it feels so terrifyingly alone.

379
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:48.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's the thing I remember at one point thinking, well,

380
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.400
<v Speaker 2>of course that's why all these marriages blow apart when

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<v Speaker 2>that people have little kids, or where you like lay

382
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.399
<v Speaker 2>the tracks for just so much intense resentment and nature

383
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.760
<v Speaker 2>that you can't pull yourself out of it because you've

384
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.040
<v Speaker 2>like got and it's like, we have to have a

385
00:19:00.040 --> 00:19:01.560
<v Speaker 2>better way to do this, and I think to have

386
00:19:01.560 --> 00:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>a better way to do this. It's an intersection of

387
00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:06.919
<v Speaker 2>all the pieces, right, It's the Marshall Plan for moms.

388
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like having different conversations about how we're reparenting. It's

389
00:19:09.840 --> 00:19:11.920
<v Speaker 2>looking at the data and saying, why are we being

390
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.480
<v Speaker 2>led astray with all of these like wives tales versus

391
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.560
<v Speaker 2>like what's really happening? And it's also saying it's this

392
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.879
<v Speaker 2>hard when it's heart, it's this heart. It can't just

393
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.040
<v Speaker 2>be fixed by saying, well, just buck up and one

394
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:23.920
<v Speaker 2>day you'll get sleep and by the time you have grandkids,

395
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.280
<v Speaker 2>you'll probably be okay with each other.

396
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:29.000
<v Speaker 1>Like that's bullshit, right, I'm just reporting the data.

397
00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:31.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying you're bullshit, but I'm just saying, like,

398
00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:34.679
<v Speaker 2>if we can't solve, we're not being able to solve

399
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.960
<v Speaker 2>for this and take care of people and love them

400
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.159
<v Speaker 2>and nurture them on this journey unless we're willing to

401
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:43.000
<v Speaker 2>say that, Like sometimes it feels that heart. So I'm like,

402
00:19:43.040 --> 00:19:44.639
<v Speaker 2>all right, I'll fall on the sword. I'll be the

403
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.320
<v Speaker 2>person being like it can feel this heart, and I

404
00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:47.360
<v Speaker 2>can do it in a public way.

405
00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.000
<v Speaker 1>I think one of the things that's so interesting about

406
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.399
<v Speaker 1>the way that you write this and the journey we

407
00:19:55.040 --> 00:19:58.080
<v Speaker 1>get on here is that there's a lot of discussion

408
00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:00.800
<v Speaker 1>of breastfeeding. So then there's a lot discussion of your

409
00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:04.159
<v Speaker 1>your experience with breastfeeding and your you know, and and

410
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.680
<v Speaker 1>how much how much you liked it, and in some

411
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.480
<v Speaker 1>sense or I don't know, maybe that's the other right

412
00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:09.720
<v Speaker 1>way to put it, but that's sort of how I

413
00:20:09.760 --> 00:20:12.520
<v Speaker 1>read it, that it was complicated, But ultimately I.

414
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>Think it's really important to me. Yeah.

415
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but that I think brings up one of the

416
00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.560
<v Speaker 1>reasons that some of these you very deep inequities exist,

417
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.800
<v Speaker 1>which is that that is something that only you could do,

418
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.520
<v Speaker 1>and there's this tension of you know, well, I want

419
00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:29.879
<v Speaker 1>the things. You feel this in the book, and I

420
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:31.320
<v Speaker 1>think a lot of us feel in the world like

421
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.560
<v Speaker 1>I want this to be exactly equal, except I also

422
00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:37.600
<v Speaker 1>want this other thing which only I can do, and

423
00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:40.919
<v Speaker 1>somehow I don't know I wanted. I just want it

424
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>to be different. I want there to be a way

425
00:20:42.600 --> 00:20:45.040
<v Speaker 1>for all of those things to happen. And as even

426
00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:48.160
<v Speaker 1>as far as we could move to make things better,

427
00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:52.040
<v Speaker 1>that will always be in the way. And versions of that,

428
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.080
<v Speaker 1>the childbirth part, the breastfeeding part, some of those things

429
00:20:55.080 --> 00:20:56.760
<v Speaker 1>will always be in the way.

430
00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It's like there's almost this desire to have a

431
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.440
<v Speaker 2>commence insert commitment from the other person to be like, yes,

432
00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't do this, but I will. I will shoulder

433
00:21:06.080 --> 00:21:09.080
<v Speaker 2>extra of these other things because you're shouldering these pieces.

434
00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:11.680
<v Speaker 2>And it's like for me, I always get obsessed, and

435
00:21:12.040 --> 00:21:13.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's in the book. It's like I try

436
00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:15.359
<v Speaker 2>to do the math on things. I'm like, why is

437
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:17.600
<v Speaker 2>this not equal, like what's feeling wrong? How do I

438
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.080
<v Speaker 2>solve this? And it's like you can't really apply math

439
00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to ething because there is that there are these personal choices, right,

440
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:25.840
<v Speaker 2>but you know, definitely my mom's generation, it was not

441
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.840
<v Speaker 2>even an option if you were going to be like

442
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.879
<v Speaker 2>a crusher career mother, like you could not say and

443
00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:33.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm also going to try to pick up my kids

444
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.520
<v Speaker 2>sometimes at three o'clock. No way could you ever do that, right?

445
00:21:36.560 --> 00:21:39.200
<v Speaker 2>You just had to like fully beyond that other track.

446
00:21:39.560 --> 00:21:42.120
<v Speaker 2>And I think now there's this question of what if

447
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.800
<v Speaker 2>I can try to have this career and I can

448
00:21:44.800 --> 00:21:46.879
<v Speaker 2>try to be really present as a parent. And I

449
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.800
<v Speaker 2>think then then kind of the corollary to what you

450
00:21:49.800 --> 00:21:53.080
<v Speaker 2>were saying, Emily, is is your spouse also trying to

451
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:55.479
<v Speaker 2>do all that or are they not? And if they aren't,

452
00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:57.880
<v Speaker 2>which could be their prerogative and could be the way

453
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.960
<v Speaker 2>your agreement is, are you always going to feel like

454
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.840
<v Speaker 2>there's an imbalance? Right? And it's kind of like carrying

455
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the breastfeeding thing or that, you know, like being the

456
00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:08.800
<v Speaker 2>birthing parent forward and being like I'm owning this, but

457
00:22:08.840 --> 00:22:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I want to own this because this is what makes

458
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:14.440
<v Speaker 2>my family work and I wish you were owning something

459
00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:15.440
<v Speaker 2>similarly big.

460
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think what's so hard about that is

461
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.840
<v Speaker 1>that it ventures into the territory of it's not just

462
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:25.800
<v Speaker 1>that I want you to do the dishes. I want

463
00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:28.440
<v Speaker 1>you to love doing the dishes, you know, Like it's

464
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:29.719
<v Speaker 1>not just that I want you to do the thing.

465
00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:32.159
<v Speaker 1>I want you to feel like you want to do

466
00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:35.919
<v Speaker 1>the thing, And that sometimes it feels like all we

467
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:37.760
<v Speaker 1>should be able to ask, like it should be good

468
00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:40.359
<v Speaker 1>enough that the dishes are done, and that goes in

469
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.400
<v Speaker 1>that goes in both directions. But I think it happens

470
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:45.679
<v Speaker 1>when we care, When we care about something and we

471
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.000
<v Speaker 1>have a set of preferences that we almost want the

472
00:22:48.040 --> 00:22:50.160
<v Speaker 1>partner to have the same set of preferences, And there

473
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.400
<v Speaker 1>can sometimes be free freedom in saying, you know, this

474
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.960
<v Speaker 1>is my this is my set of preferences, and I

475
00:22:57.080 --> 00:22:59.800
<v Speaker 1>like you. Actually, I have a much higher taste for

476
00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:03.239
<v Speaker 1>random times with my kid, you know, picking them up

477
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.960
<v Speaker 1>and walking to the Kendnience store at three o'clock in

478
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.879
<v Speaker 1>the afternoon, and I organize aspects of my professional life

479
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.000
<v Speaker 1>around that in a way that my husband does not,

480
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.760
<v Speaker 1>and not because he doesn't like the kids or because

481
00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:15.680
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't care about equity, but because that isn't important

482
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:19.280
<v Speaker 1>to him. And I'm always struggling a little bit with

483
00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:21.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, to the extent that we do on equal

484
00:23:21.320 --> 00:23:24.119
<v Speaker 1>amounts of parenting, which we do to you know, how

485
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:26.080
<v Speaker 1>much of that is because that's really what I want?

486
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.199
<v Speaker 1>And how much of that is an underlying inequity And

487
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.120
<v Speaker 1>if it's just because it's what I want, how should I.

488
00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:32.920
<v Speaker 3>Feel about that? I don't think there's an easy answer

489
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:33.359
<v Speaker 3>in any of that.

490
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So there's this piece that I really want to write,

491
00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>and I want to write, like this article about the

492
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.119
<v Speaker 2>last thing that I'm going to this is gonna be

493
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.159
<v Speaker 2>very like man woman conversation right now, right, but like,

494
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.119
<v Speaker 2>the last thing I think husbands should ever ask their

495
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.600
<v Speaker 2>wives is what they want? Because I hate that question, right,

496
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I don't want It's not that simple.

497
00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:56.600
<v Speaker 1>A Marshall plan for moms complete equality, you know, yeah.

498
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and like and in this moment, what I actually

499
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.719
<v Speaker 2>want is to is for you to just know what

500
00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>has to happen, because the icing on the cake is

501
00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to divide the actual task.

502
00:24:07.320 --> 00:24:10.879
<v Speaker 1>It relates closely to some of this this idea that

503
00:24:11.040 --> 00:24:15.439
<v Speaker 1>I talk about sometimes around called total responsibility transfer is

504
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.720
<v Speaker 1>related to the mental load. You know, you get into

505
00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:20.639
<v Speaker 1>these places where it's the version of you know, what

506
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.760
<v Speaker 1>do you want is sort of like tell me exactly

507
00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:24.120
<v Speaker 1>what to.

508
00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:25.320
<v Speaker 3>Do and then I will implement it.

509
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.560
<v Speaker 1>When a huge amount of the work is thinking about

510
00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:32.840
<v Speaker 1>what needs to get done, and so there's space there

511
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.080
<v Speaker 1>for doing a better job, probably for all of us.

512
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:39.080
<v Speaker 1>In saying you're responsible for this thing. You know that

513
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.040
<v Speaker 1>we're going to divide the tasks in a way, not

514
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:44.399
<v Speaker 1>that I'm responsible for everything and I allocate them like

515
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.880
<v Speaker 1>you're my employee, but like we're the you know.

516
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.399
<v Speaker 3>The co CEOs or whatever exactly.

517
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:51.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like this is totally your genre and I don't

518
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:53.360
<v Speaker 2>have anything to think about in that. And I think

519
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:55.199
<v Speaker 2>that's what it comes down to, because it is it

520
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.000
<v Speaker 2>is that mental labor right to actually carry that and

521
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:00.760
<v Speaker 2>to have it all and that's why you get to

522
00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:02.880
<v Speaker 2>this point where's like I'll just do it right, And

523
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean it can be in the flip side of it,

524
00:25:04.520 --> 00:25:06.960
<v Speaker 2>like you know, we've had these like puking snowstores up

525
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.639
<v Speaker 2>in northern New Hampshire right now, and my husband is

526
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:11.639
<v Speaker 2>the person who deals with the snowblower that has been

527
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:13.879
<v Speaker 2>broken for three times. If he gets it back, he

528
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:16.040
<v Speaker 2>tries it, you know, and it's like I'm just like,

529
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not on the snowblower team. That's that's like entirely

530
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.560
<v Speaker 2>your team. I'm excited about that being your mental mode,

531
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, but it's you know, like I'm not stepping

532
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:26.359
<v Speaker 2>in there to do that one. Yeah.

533
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:27.879
<v Speaker 3>No, And we have we have the car.

534
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.840
<v Speaker 1>We have something about you know, anything that's about electronics

535
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.199
<v Speaker 1>or cars or anything where I think he wants me

536
00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:33.919
<v Speaker 1>to care.

537
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:35.720
<v Speaker 3>He wants me to care, you know, like.

538
00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:38.240
<v Speaker 1>Which if we need a new car, which trim should

539
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.199
<v Speaker 1>it have? And I'm like, please don't ask me, like

540
00:25:42.320 --> 00:25:43.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't care.

541
00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:46.119
<v Speaker 2>But see that's you being like just tell me what

542
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:46.520
<v Speaker 2>you want.

543
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.280
<v Speaker 3>No, I think he wants me to have an opinion.

544
00:25:49.560 --> 00:25:52.640
<v Speaker 1>I think he really genuinely wants me to like engage

545
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.119
<v Speaker 1>with this question because he thinks I don't know with

546
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.560
<v Speaker 1>it it's important or there's something. I mean, we're off topic,

547
00:25:57.600 --> 00:25:59.800
<v Speaker 1>but like there's something about this particular aspect of the

548
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:03.040
<v Speaker 1>car that he that is that is like a parallel

549
00:26:03.080 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 1>to so many other things.

550
00:26:04.520 --> 00:26:06.720
<v Speaker 3>And I can see now how he feels because I'm

551
00:26:06.800 --> 00:26:07.200
<v Speaker 3>just like.

552
00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:11.080
<v Speaker 2>This is the third email, I don't care, don't ask.

553
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.960
<v Speaker 3>Again, doesn't matter at all to me.

554
00:26:13.520 --> 00:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>But I think there's it's about like a shared experience, right,

555
00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Like when you are carrying the load of whatever it is,

556
00:26:19.560 --> 00:26:22.480
<v Speaker 2>you're like, it's it's this odd thing. Like before we

557
00:26:22.600 --> 00:26:25.679
<v Speaker 2>had kids, I felt like nobody knew me better than

558
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.760
<v Speaker 2>my husband. Nobody knew everything that was happening with my

559
00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.439
<v Speaker 2>like with my job, like the ins and outs, and

560
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.040
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden we lost that because we didn't

561
00:26:33.040 --> 00:26:34.960
<v Speaker 2>have time to talk about any of that stuff. And

562
00:26:35.040 --> 00:26:36.560
<v Speaker 2>so there are these ways that you kind of like,

563
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:37.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, put a shot off the bow to be

564
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.040
<v Speaker 2>like I need to think about like, you know, the

565
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.560
<v Speaker 2>socks that don't seem to fit my children's feet for

566
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.560
<v Speaker 2>any worse, and like I can't seem to keep these

567
00:26:44.560 --> 00:26:46.960
<v Speaker 2>things on and I'm actually putting mental bandwidthin it. And

568
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:48.320
<v Speaker 2>he's kind of like, why are we even talking? I

569
00:26:48.320 --> 00:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>don't want to talk about that. I'm like, okay, fine, right,

570
00:26:50.280 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>But it's it's like you're trying to find these points

571
00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:55.680
<v Speaker 2>to bring each other in. And I think that I

572
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.919
<v Speaker 2>think the reality of having young kids is that you

573
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.640
<v Speaker 2>just missfire with your partner the time, and you can't

574
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:04.200
<v Speaker 2>see the misfires and you're too tired and you're too

575
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.040
<v Speaker 2>caught up in whatever the hell you're going through emotionally

576
00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:10.199
<v Speaker 2>that you're not seeing that your partner's going through that too,

577
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and you can't help catch them. And I think that is,

578
00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:14.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the reasons that it's so darn hard.

579
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree, And I think that does get better,

580
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.679
<v Speaker 1>and partly because for the most part, you get slightly

581
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.919
<v Speaker 1>less tired and you have slightly more time, and you

582
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:23.640
<v Speaker 1>wake up one morning and you realize, oh, we could

583
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.239
<v Speaker 1>have a cup of coffee together and we could talk

584
00:27:25.280 --> 00:27:28.160
<v Speaker 1>about something other than missing socks. And I think that's

585
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:30.639
<v Speaker 1>when the moments when that happens and you and you

586
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.600
<v Speaker 1>find that you do still like your partner are actually

587
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.320
<v Speaker 1>quite special.

588
00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:34.719
<v Speaker 3>Right.

589
00:27:34.840 --> 00:27:37.119
<v Speaker 1>The sort of realization of like, oh, I'm really enjoying

590
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.040
<v Speaker 1>doing this and I wish we could do more of it,

591
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:40.359
<v Speaker 1>but actually.

592
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm enjoying because I like you and like that itself

593
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.640
<v Speaker 2>is a.

594
00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Really nice That's a nice realization.

595
00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it is. It's also I mean, I can do

596
00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:51.200
<v Speaker 2>this now with hindsight. The irony is that I have

597
00:27:51.320 --> 00:27:54.560
<v Speaker 2>no doubt Peter was right there trying his best the

598
00:27:54.600 --> 00:27:57.000
<v Speaker 2>whole time. That's not a question, right, And that's the

599
00:27:57.040 --> 00:27:59.879
<v Speaker 2>irony of this, that you could be trying your best.

600
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.600
<v Speaker 2>But again it's like that misfire piece. So it's not

601
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>only you find these moments and you say, oh, man,

602
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I really like you, but also yeah, I haven't. I

603
00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:09.560
<v Speaker 2>haven't been seeing you and you have been seeing me.

604
00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:11.879
<v Speaker 2>And but yet that's kind of how we based our

605
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>whole relationship before having kids, was that we were the

606
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.600
<v Speaker 2>people who saw and got each other. What a wild

607
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:19.399
<v Speaker 2>thing to then be tossed into being parents, sharing the

608
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.200
<v Speaker 2>most intimate experience you could ever share, but not sharing it.

609
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:24.600
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't make sense. But that's actually, to me a

610
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.440
<v Speaker 2>summary of early parenting. No, that's so that is.

611
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.280
<v Speaker 3>Like, that's such a perfect that's such a perfect summary.

612
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 3>So I had one other, more specific question.

613
00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:34.760
<v Speaker 1>I was just curious, probably because you have a sort

614
00:28:34.760 --> 00:28:37.000
<v Speaker 1>of shared experience, you talk a lot about the iniquities

615
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.320
<v Speaker 1>or the feelings of inequities when sort of Peter goes

616
00:28:39.320 --> 00:28:42.080
<v Speaker 1>back to work climbing and you sort of do it

617
00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:44.760
<v Speaker 1>as a lesser thing, lesser but like in a less

618
00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:48.800
<v Speaker 1>intense way, at least initially how much do you think

619
00:28:48.840 --> 00:28:50.160
<v Speaker 1>that inequity.

620
00:28:49.760 --> 00:28:51.800
<v Speaker 3>Was so visible because you have the same job.

621
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hugely, right, because I mean I look at people. Okay,

622
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.080
<v Speaker 2>I went. I was in Kenya this past November and

623
00:29:00.120 --> 00:29:01.800
<v Speaker 2>I met this team member who I've been working with

624
00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:04.560
<v Speaker 2>for Zoom for three years, and I was like, holy cow,

625
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.320
<v Speaker 2>she's so much taller that I had no idea and

626
00:29:07.320 --> 00:29:09.240
<v Speaker 2>she's and she's like, wow, you are so much shorter

627
00:29:09.280 --> 00:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>than I thought you were.

628
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:10.840
<v Speaker 3>Right, like we do, our.

629
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Brains do this thing that we were like, oh, I

630
00:29:13.080 --> 00:29:15.720
<v Speaker 2>know who this person is, and you map yourself onto

631
00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:17.880
<v Speaker 2>other people without us knowing it, right, So I think

632
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:21.280
<v Speaker 2>in this way, well, intellectually I know that we are

633
00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:24.160
<v Speaker 2>completely different. I think that I always equivocate us, and

634
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>it was much easier. It's like, well, we're the same,

635
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:27.800
<v Speaker 2>We're just kind of these different versions of each other.

636
00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:29.600
<v Speaker 2>And then all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, we

637
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:31.440
<v Speaker 2>are not different versions of each other. He did not

638
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:34.440
<v Speaker 2>gain seventy pounds care like twins and then have to have,

639
00:29:34.800 --> 00:29:38.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, an induction and forty two hours of labor

640
00:29:38.280 --> 00:29:40.280
<v Speaker 2>n a C section and you know it's like no,

641
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.040
<v Speaker 2>there's just no way. And that that was hard for me,

642
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.320
<v Speaker 2>And I do think you're right that it like having

643
00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:48.840
<v Speaker 2>that mirror that was never a mirror but is really

644
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.040
<v Speaker 2>not a mirror there. It just felt like it was

645
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.959
<v Speaker 2>more in my face than it would have been if

646
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.320
<v Speaker 2>he had a different passion, if he had a different career,

647
00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And it also and it manifested in these different ways

648
00:29:57.840 --> 00:30:00.200
<v Speaker 2>because you also see desire, right, Like, That's something I've

649
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>had to really have a reckoning with, is that our

650
00:30:02.600 --> 00:30:05.320
<v Speaker 2>our appetite for what we want to do as climbers

651
00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.480
<v Speaker 2>is different now, and it's it's always been a little

652
00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>bit different, but it's much more different from each other

653
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.040
<v Speaker 2>now with our kids than it was before we had kids.

654
00:30:14.600 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I I totally resonate with that. I

655
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:19.240
<v Speaker 1>think this idea of sort of we're doing the same thing,

656
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:21.920
<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden, the kind of foray

657
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:24.000
<v Speaker 1>into parenting made us, I think for Jesse and I

658
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.720
<v Speaker 1>too sort of maybe realize, oh, like we're not you know,

659
00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.640
<v Speaker 1>we're not really doing the same thing. And now we're

660
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.240
<v Speaker 1>like really not doing the same thing. But you know,

661
00:30:29.280 --> 00:30:31.320
<v Speaker 1>for a long time we were sort of I felt

662
00:30:31.320 --> 00:30:33.240
<v Speaker 1>like I was doing kind of the same thing in

663
00:30:33.280 --> 00:30:36.680
<v Speaker 1>a more interested not as good way, which was you know,

664
00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:37.600
<v Speaker 1>more tired way.

665
00:30:37.800 --> 00:30:39.080
<v Speaker 3>Let's say, yeah.

666
00:30:38.840 --> 00:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>But again, it's all these things are probably like these

667
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:44.560
<v Speaker 2>dials in our in our psyche that are that when

668
00:30:44.560 --> 00:30:46.200
<v Speaker 2>you when you lay them out like this, you're like, wow,

669
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.000
<v Speaker 2>those are really not functional. Like humans should do a

670
00:30:48.080 --> 00:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>better job, right, We shouldn't just see that we're the

671
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 2>same as our partner because it's going to kick you

672
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.120
<v Speaker 2>and it's going to bite you in the ass. Right,

673
00:30:54.120 --> 00:30:55.560
<v Speaker 2>But but yet we do it and then all of

674
00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:57.800
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, I think it adds to the different tension points,

675
00:30:57.760 --> 00:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>where as if you had some like more zen wae

676
00:31:00.120 --> 00:31:02.920
<v Speaker 2>understanding from the very beginning, like they are a unique individual.

677
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.720
<v Speaker 2>We sometimes cross over in these patterns, but we will

678
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.560
<v Speaker 2>always pursue it differently, like it'd probably be healthier. But

679
00:31:08.600 --> 00:31:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I just I didn't start from that point.

680
00:31:10.520 --> 00:31:12.880
<v Speaker 1>No, I know the getting must start there. Okay, So

681
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.800
<v Speaker 1>my last question for you is have the kids read

682
00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:16.280
<v Speaker 1>the book?

683
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:17.720
<v Speaker 3>And do you or do you think?

684
00:31:17.760 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 1>I guess they're only six and a half so maybe

685
00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:23.040
<v Speaker 1>not yet, but but do you do you think that

686
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.120
<v Speaker 1>you will have them read it?

687
00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? They know about the book, which is really fun,

688
00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:32.640
<v Speaker 2>and they I've read them little excerts of them, or

689
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.040
<v Speaker 2>I've told them funny stories that I've recounted in it.

690
00:31:35.560 --> 00:31:40.719
<v Speaker 2>They're too little to really understand the book, and because

691
00:31:40.760 --> 00:31:44.120
<v Speaker 2>it's so intense, I want to be careful about when it's.

692
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.160
<v Speaker 3>Time for them to read the book.

693
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.440
<v Speaker 2>The whole point of this book, it's a book to them, right,

694
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:51.040
<v Speaker 2>So I remember early on someone be like, you can't

695
00:31:51.040 --> 00:31:52.520
<v Speaker 2>write this your kids, you're going to read it. I'm like,

696
00:31:52.520 --> 00:31:55.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the whole point. That's something. It's like, I want

697
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.280
<v Speaker 2>them to read it when it's because in my my family,

698
00:31:59.320 --> 00:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>the family that I am like trying to lead with

699
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.320
<v Speaker 2>these two little humans, it's like, let's talk about it.

700
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about this thing that's hard. It's like the

701
00:32:08.120 --> 00:32:10.080
<v Speaker 2>doctor Becky thing, right, It's like, let's go sit on

702
00:32:10.120 --> 00:32:12.760
<v Speaker 2>the bench together through the hard so that you know

703
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.200
<v Speaker 2>that I can be there with you and we can

704
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.400
<v Speaker 2>get to the other side together. So absolutely, when it's time,

705
00:32:18.560 --> 00:32:20.800
<v Speaker 2>like this book is theirs, I.

706
00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Think the greatest gift in sometimes to your kids that

707
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:25.560
<v Speaker 1>they will be able to read this when they are

708
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:30.600
<v Speaker 1>going through this themselves someday. And that's a pretty I

709
00:32:30.600 --> 00:32:34.440
<v Speaker 1>would have really liked that version of that from my Mom.

710
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's all I wanted, Like I just like desperately

711
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.560
<v Speaker 2>wanted this like portal in time to go back and

712
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:42.800
<v Speaker 2>be like, oh my gosh, you went through all of this,

713
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.520
<v Speaker 2>how did that? Oh my with that created me? That's

714
00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:47.400
<v Speaker 2>why I think that it's just like my brain would

715
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.800
<v Speaker 2>explode in thinking about it, right and even to this day,

716
00:32:49.800 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 2>because whenever I would ask my mom about her experience

717
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:54.520
<v Speaker 2>when you know she was at this point with her

718
00:32:54.560 --> 00:32:56.720
<v Speaker 2>young child, she'd be like, well, and kind of remember

719
00:32:56.760 --> 00:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>this there. I remember this jump a jump thing that

720
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.640
<v Speaker 2>you seem to really like. And I'm like, really, that's all.

721
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:02.320
<v Speaker 2>There is so much more than a jump out, Like

722
00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:03.880
<v Speaker 2>you can only get four minutes out of a jump

723
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of jump at this age, like you've got to tell

724
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:07.239
<v Speaker 2>me what else was happening. But for her, it's like

725
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:09.040
<v Speaker 2>so far in the rear of your mirror. She's like, yeah,

726
00:33:09.040 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 2>there's a jump of jump and I don't know, we

727
00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:12.800
<v Speaker 2>just kind of got through it. And I'm like, it's like,

728
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.040
<v Speaker 2>how did you go to work the way you did

729
00:33:15.080 --> 00:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>and put on your nylons and put on your suit

730
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:19.560
<v Speaker 2>and put on your heels and like deal with the

731
00:33:19.560 --> 00:33:21.520
<v Speaker 2>fact that I was puking my brains at at some

732
00:33:21.560 --> 00:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>point in the middle of the night, because you had

733
00:33:23.040 --> 00:33:24.680
<v Speaker 2>to be there with me when I was two, two

734
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.920
<v Speaker 2>years old and projectile vomiting, because I'm sure I did it,

735
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:29.360
<v Speaker 2>but somehow, like you got out the door by seven

736
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:31.160
<v Speaker 2>three in the morning, How the heck did you do that?

737
00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:34.600
<v Speaker 1>I also, yeah, I do wonder. I vomited a lot

738
00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:36.800
<v Speaker 1>as a kid, like, well, you know, how did you

739
00:33:36.840 --> 00:33:39.640
<v Speaker 1>get up and like go teach like teach.

740
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.200
<v Speaker 3>Classes after How did that happen?

741
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:44.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, Yeah, and we'll never know, but your kids,

742
00:33:44.560 --> 00:33:46.280
<v Speaker 1>your kids won't know, and my kids won't know. There,

743
00:33:46.320 --> 00:33:48.400
<v Speaker 1>my kids will just like I'm just gonna be like, oh, yeah,

744
00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:49.520
<v Speaker 1>one time you vomited up.

745
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:55.160
<v Speaker 2>For some mushrooms. But anyway, it was pretty good. We're

746
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:55.920
<v Speaker 2>just thinking me to name more.

747
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:58.400
<v Speaker 3>Mushrooms after that. So that's that's all.

748
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:03.959
<v Speaker 2>All right.

749
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.160
<v Speaker 1>So the book is called More. It's absolutely amazing. It

750
00:34:08.160 --> 00:34:11.600
<v Speaker 1>will be linked in the notes to this And I

751
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.399
<v Speaker 1>just tremendously appreciate you being here.

752
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:13.799
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

753
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:16.400
<v Speaker 2>It's such an honor. I've been such a fan of

754
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.440
<v Speaker 2>your work. And when you wrote me back on email,

755
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I did a little dance and I was really stoked.

756
00:34:20.160 --> 00:34:28.360
<v Speaker 2>So thank you for making that happen. Verly, I'm come.

757
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:41.640
<v Speaker 3>Mount take your time and seeing it's all right.

758
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.720
<v Speaker 2>I must.

759
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.040
<v Speaker 1>Parent Data is produced by tamorro Avishai with support from

760
00:34:49.080 --> 00:34:52.120
<v Speaker 1>the parent Data team and p I Rex. If you

761
00:34:52.160 --> 00:34:54.640
<v Speaker 1>have thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on

762
00:34:54.680 --> 00:34:58.439
<v Speaker 1>my Instagram at Prof Emily Ostar, and if you want

763
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.080
<v Speaker 1>to support the show, become a subscriber to the parent

764
00:35:01.160 --> 00:35:04.640
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765
00:35:04.640 --> 00:35:07.320
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766
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:11.319
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767
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.239
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768
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.400
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769
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:21.040
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770
00:35:21.040 --> 00:35:24.480
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771
00:35:24.560 --> 00:35:26.760
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772
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.719
<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people find out about us.

773
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.680
<v Speaker 2>Write Penelope, write Mam. We'll see you next time.

774
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Keep