WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.160 I am not a white person, I am not a mestizo. 2 00:00:02.360 --> 00:00:08.000 A'macholo from Futuro media. 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.520 It's Latino Usa. I'm Maria no josa. Today we're digging 4 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:17.040 into the meaning of the term cholo, how it's being reclaimed, 5 00:00:17.520 --> 00:00:21.680 and how it's violent history still plagues those who use it. 6 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.480 In the United States, the mere utterance of the word 7 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:41.960 cholo invokes images of gang members, low writers, and tattoos. 8 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.559 But in South America, where many of you, dear listeners 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.839 have roots, the term cholo or cholito can either be 10 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.760 a term of endearment or a racial slur used against 11 00:00:54.800 --> 00:00:59.800 people of indigenous ancestry. How come one word is used 12 00:00:59.800 --> 00:01:03.880 to describe two very different groups of people on opposite 13 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.800 sides of the world. Well, it turns out that while 14 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:12.040 contrasting the word cholo in Lima, Peru and the cholo 15 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:17.080 of California, they actually share a common past, the long 16 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:21.160 history of racism and colorism in Latin America that began 17 00:01:21.240 --> 00:01:25.280 with the arrival of the Spaniards over five centuries ago, 18 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.080 and that has endured all of this time. In many 19 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.240 of our home countries and also here in the US. 20 00:01:33.880 --> 00:01:37.000 Producer emilsee Kiros Is here to take us on a 21 00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:41.120 journey from the streets of California to the andes of 22 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.640 Peru to find the roots of an ancient and harmful 23 00:01:44.720 --> 00:01:49.400 term that some people are nonetheless reclaiming as an element 24 00:01:49.440 --> 00:01:51.040 of pride and identity. 25 00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:58.560 Here's Emise, As a Chicana who grew up in southern California, 26 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:02.160 the term cholo meant a very specific thing to me. 27 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:06.680 It meant flannel shirts fastened up to the last button, 28 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:11.040 with khaki pants, writing in a low rider listening to oldies. 29 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:15.119 Cholo culture is such a vibe that it's been appropriated 30 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:18.440 by everyone from superstars like Rihanna to Lana del Rey 31 00:02:18.880 --> 00:02:22.080 and even crossed Frontiers which Cholo subculture is popping up 32 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:32.200 in places as far away as Japan, youngest in Thailand, 33 00:02:32.480 --> 00:02:36.040 where locals have begun to identify as Cholos, where cholo 34 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:41.840 clothing and love Chicano culture. This is Mona aka Sad Girl. 35 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.760 I just want to Fly, I want to be a flow. 36 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:52.840 What one of Japan's foremost Japanese Chicano rappers. You may 37 00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:55.959 remember this early two thousands hit song lean Like Acholo 38 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:03.359 by Down aka Kila Shot, or watched movies about cholo 39 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.200 culture like blood and blood out three. 40 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.920 Vatos locos full of carnal. 41 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.520 Or American me, the state is so lame. 42 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:13.880 They paid for the game. 43 00:03:14.320 --> 00:03:16.400 But do you know where the word cholo really comes from? 44 00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:18.800 And did you know that a cholo in South America 45 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.359 is not the same as acholo from the United States. 46 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.880 I only recently learned that there were toolos in South 47 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:28.000 America during a conversation with my partner, who's prove An American. 48 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.600 So I feel like provins are always really proud, right, 49 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:34.240 and it's like even if you're a cholo, like. 50 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.520 At least for me and my wait, what do you mean? 51 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.480 Like like my dad was always like, you know, listening 52 00:03:43.480 --> 00:03:45.480 to Waino or like speaking. 53 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:48.280 Which I literally didn't, but like was he a gangster? 54 00:03:48.760 --> 00:03:50.280 No, he wasn't a gangster. 55 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.080 He like like very indigenous, like he wore that poncho 56 00:03:54.200 --> 00:03:56.400 and like Thenolo then. 57 00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.400 It's like indigenous people in Peru. 58 00:04:00.160 --> 00:04:06.160 Tolo is like just an indigenous person for you. Yeah, 59 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:08.080 this was the first time I had ever heard the 60 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:10.960 word cholo used to describe someone in a way that 61 00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:15.080 didn't mean hood or gangster. I immediately wanted to know 62 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.799 if the cholo from Southern California, and if the cholo 63 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.520 from South America had the same meaning, and if so, 64 00:04:21.080 --> 00:04:23.479 how did they come to mean such vastly different things? 65 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.440 Where the word originate? Who was first the trollo of 66 00:04:27.520 --> 00:04:33.440 California or the soolo of the Andes. In my search 67 00:04:33.440 --> 00:04:37.000 for answers, I reached out to doctor Raquel Chang Rodriguez, 68 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.960 a professor in colonial literature at the City University of 69 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:41.440 New York. 70 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:48.960 Its origins are uncertain. Some scholars believe that it comes 71 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.240 from the now show load, which was the word for dog. 72 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.280 Now what is the language of the assets? 73 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:01.839 But one of the earliest mentioned of the warl appears 74 00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:08.720 in Commentarios Realists Royal Compentarists by the Peruvian mestizo writer 75 00:05:09.080 --> 00:05:13.640 in Ca Garcilaso de la Vega that work days back 76 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:19.280 to sixteen h nine. He indicates there that the word 77 00:05:19.960 --> 00:05:24.279 means dog and it was used in a priorative way 78 00:05:24.760 --> 00:05:30.000 by the Spaniards to refer to these individuals of mixed 79 00:05:30.200 --> 00:05:35.839 origins African and Indian. But now it is applied differently, 80 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.440 is applied to almost anyone that could be of mixed parentage. 81 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.919 This was a really good start, but I decided to 82 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:46.760 do a little more digging to see if I could 83 00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:49.839 find any earlier mentions of the word, and I did. 84 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.279 I found that in fifteen fifty five, a man named 85 00:05:55.320 --> 00:05:59.480 Freya Lonso de Molina, living in Mexico, then called Novaspana, 86 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.359 wrote a bilingual dictionary of Spanish and Nawat called mccabulario 87 00:06:04.640 --> 00:06:09.600 in Linguo Castellana i Mexicana. In this dictionary, the word cholo, 88 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.279 spelled with an X, not a ch in Nawat, is 89 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:18.640 directly translated to criallo or esclavo, a servant a slave. 90 00:06:20.640 --> 00:06:24.400 Cholos also appeared in the Spanish castas, a series of 91 00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:28.200 paintings that date back to the sixteenth century that portrayed 92 00:06:28.200 --> 00:06:31.960 the ethnic mixing in the Americas in elaborate detail. 93 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:33.280 Listen to this. 94 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.680 The Spanish had a label and a cast for every 95 00:06:36.760 --> 00:06:38.680 kind of racial mix there was to be found in 96 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.560 the Americas. For example, a person born to a Spanish 97 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.599 father and a native mother produced a mestizo, and mestiso 98 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.080 sat in the middle of the social latter. At the 99 00:06:49.080 --> 00:06:52.440 top were pure blooded Europeans and at the very bottom 100 00:06:52.760 --> 00:06:57.000 were black and indigenous people. In this caste system, cholo 101 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.040 was a name given to a person who was three 102 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.440 quarters Native and a quarter Spanish. For centuries, this is 103 00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:06.040 how the word was used both in the United States 104 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:09.080 and in Mexico up until the Chicano Movement of the 105 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:12.760 nineteen sixties and seventies, when Chicano gang members began to 106 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.720 reclaim the word and call themselves chorlos. 107 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:20.239 We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. 108 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:23.560 Before the world, before all. 109 00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:28.560 Of North America, before all our brothers, the Bronx continents. 110 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:35.200 We are a nation, We are a union, are pre pueblos. 111 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:43.360 We are at plan Today we are exploring the term chorlo, 112 00:07:43.640 --> 00:07:46.800 but just really quickly, Chicano, in case you're not familiar 113 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.160 with the term, typically refers to people of Mexican descent 114 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.240 born in the United States. Chican X identity, as it 115 00:07:54.280 --> 00:07:57.560 is often called today, is centered around social justice and 116 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:02.720 indigenous pride. Okay, so back to cholo. After learning about 117 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.760 the origin of the term, I wanted to know if 118 00:08:04.840 --> 00:08:08.640 Mexican tolo's today still knew the racist history behind this word. 119 00:08:09.200 --> 00:08:12.080 So I reached out to Michael Flores, a former gang 120 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.680 member turned actor who's pretty much who you'd picture when 121 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:17.200 you think of a Mexican cholo. 122 00:08:17.880 --> 00:08:23.720 My name is Michael Flores. I'm an actor, producer, director, creator. 123 00:08:24.520 --> 00:08:27.680 Michael identifies as a cholo and doesn't try to hide it. 124 00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:30.000 I'm proud to be a chilo. I'm proud to be 125 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:32.800 someone who says, hey, you know what, I grew up 126 00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:35.280 that way and this is who I am today, you know. 127 00:08:35.400 --> 00:08:38.360 So yeah, I'm proud of it. You know. 128 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.160 Michael's from South central Los Angeles. He's six foot two, 129 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:45.320 has a bald head, a go tee, and a body 130 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.400 full of tattoos. He's someone that most people would find 131 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.600 pretty intimidating, but it's actually a real sweetheart once you 132 00:08:51.640 --> 00:08:54.480 get to know him. Yeah, so, Michael, what is being 133 00:08:54.520 --> 00:08:55.439 a cholo mean to you? 134 00:08:56.400 --> 00:09:01.560 Trolo is a lifestyle. Toto is the way you carry yourself. 135 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.520 Being a troll is also territorial. You know, you have 136 00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:10.040 territories where you can't go or something could happen. So yeah, 137 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.480 I think. And then the pride, you know, walking with pride, 138 00:09:13.520 --> 00:09:15.960 walking with your head up, with your body straight, you know, 139 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.120 feeling feeling the power you know, of being a troller. 140 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:24.560 Or I go somewhere they know what I am. They're like, damn, 141 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:27.040 look at that trollo. You know what I mean. They're like, oh, shoot, 142 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.679 sometimes people move out of the line. I'm like, nah, 143 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:32.000 you can stay in line, you know what I mean. 144 00:09:32.040 --> 00:09:34.600 It's cool. I'm not gonna take your wallet or none 145 00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:36.880 of that stuff. But you know, those are things that 146 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.440 people identify us as, you know, as a thief or 147 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:44.760 someone who beat you up, and I don't even do that, 148 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.840 you know what I mean. But that's what the total is. 149 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:51.720 Michael. What does it mean for you then to not 150 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:55.679 just be someone who identifies as a trollo, but to 151 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:58.400 have been a gangster also. 152 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:00.959 Like I made mistakes. I want to prison for eight years, 153 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.640 you know what I mean, for being in a gang. 154 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:06.480 You know, I still identify with my hood because that's 155 00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:10.200 where I've been from my whole life, you know. So 156 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:15.200 I'm not active anything like that, but you know, I 157 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.200 still have it all over my body, you know. And 158 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:21.640 there's times where I'm filming something and someone will walk 159 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:23.319 up with me with a gun and I'm not paying 160 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:26.160 attention real life. Cocked the gun in front of me, 161 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:27.520 put it in my chest and be like where the 162 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:30.880 fuck are you from? And I'm like like, hey man, 163 00:10:30.920 --> 00:10:33.959 I'm filming a movie. It doesn't matter how old I am. 164 00:10:34.040 --> 00:10:36.959 It doesn't matter. I'm in someone else's neighborhood. I'm in 165 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.280 a violation. I need to tell those guys, hey, you 166 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:40.000 know what. I'm here. 167 00:10:40.800 --> 00:10:43.320 As an actor, many of the roles Michael has played 168 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.000 have either been an inmate or a villain or something 169 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.600 along those lines. So I asked him what he thought 170 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:50.920 those roles say about Torlos. 171 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:53.520 I'm always hired to be a prisoner. I'm always hired 172 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:58.320 to be a gunman. All these things that I would 173 00:10:58.400 --> 00:11:01.920 never do, but that I'm hired to do, you know, 174 00:11:02.040 --> 00:11:04.920 or written for me or but what I'm also doing 175 00:11:05.040 --> 00:11:10.720 is creating movies with trollos, like comedies like Central Clause. 176 00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:13.960 I just created Central Clause. You know. We just have 177 00:11:14.040 --> 00:11:16.480 to change the way people think of us. I want 178 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.320 to do funny stuff. I want to give people an 179 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.080 opportunity to see that trollos can make you laugh. That's 180 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.480 one of our jobs. One of our jobs is to 181 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:30.199 change the way Trollo is used. I think our job 182 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.520 is to show them that tolo's aren't bad. I think 183 00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:37.840 it's on us to change that, and I think everything 184 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.360 that we do to educate people is a step to 185 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.120 making Trollo a better word and something to be proud of. Man. 186 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:54.800 Yeah, talking to Michael was really eye opening for me, 187 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:57.400 but it also left me with more questions than I 188 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:01.520 had before. Why are trolo's always associated with gang life 189 00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:05.920 and violence? How did the reclamation of this word as 190 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.080 a positive thing by Chicanos turn into a word that's 191 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:14.480 become almost synonymous with gang life and criminal activity. To 192 00:12:14.520 --> 00:12:16.680 get answers, I spoke with him. 193 00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:22.760 My name is al Valdez and currently I'm a professor 194 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:26.559 at the University of California, Irvine, and I teach classes 195 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.920 on gangs, prison gangs, the effect of trauma, and the 196 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:32.839 developing brain. 197 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.559 Doctor Beldez, when did you start to realize the relationship 198 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:40.760 between the term cholo and Mexican street gang members. 199 00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:43.200 I really didn't know this word until I wrote a 200 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:47.640 book where the Mexican Mafia drop out Renee Boxer and Ricez. 201 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.720 He indoctrinated me into the ways of the Mexican mafia 202 00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:56.040 prison gang culture. He also trained me in the other 203 00:12:56.760 --> 00:13:02.360 three major prison gangs in California and in theme. 204 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.360 Theme stands for the Mexican mafia. 205 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:09.640 They understand and look at the Aztec culture. They consider 206 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.960 themselves sort of Aztec warriors, and when I was getting 207 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.240 my history lessons from him, that's soon I heard the 208 00:13:16.280 --> 00:13:19.439 word cholo and I saw it. We have the fire 209 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:24.360 god and the word for dog in the Aztec culture 210 00:13:24.920 --> 00:13:26.840 that's abbreviated asololo. 211 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:32.400 The fire god doctor Valdez mentioned is Charlotte xol Otl. 212 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.880 He was the god of fire and of the underworld, 213 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.920 and the Mexican herost dog cholot Squinty, or simply Cholo, 214 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.240 was named after him. Doctor Valdez, Why do you think 215 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.000 Mexican gang members call themselves cholos. 216 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.679 I think it's a term of endearment, of recognition. Uh, 217 00:13:50.760 --> 00:13:53.000 they don't use it in a derogatory way at all. 218 00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:57.080 Sometimes Mexicans are called cholo's and that's not in a 219 00:13:57.160 --> 00:13:59.640 nice way. And some people who are not of color, 220 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.320 the true color, will use the N word to refer 221 00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:05.439 to people of color, and they don't mean it in 222 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.679 a nice way. But yet in rap songs, in TVs 223 00:14:09.800 --> 00:14:12.480 and movies, you see people of color calling each other. 224 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.320 The word is a term of endearment, and so I 225 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:20.040 think that's what cholo has come to be used as. 226 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.400 Could you explain a little bit because I'm still not 227 00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:28.200 understanding how do the gang association start and why do 228 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.040 you think that Chicanos who were being called cholos as 229 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.200 this racial slur, started to form street gangs. 230 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.040 Cholo is one of those words that's always been associated 231 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:42.600 with Latino gangs. I think they begin with an excluded group, 232 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.800 and I think whether the exclusion is real or perceive, 233 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.320 and you add racism, class distinction, and bias. People form 234 00:14:50.400 --> 00:14:54.680 together for protection. It's my opinion that all the street 235 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.800 gangs and prison gangs in the United States initially formed 236 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.280 for protection and very quickly they turned into criminal organizations 237 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.080 because they understand whether that grouping and solidarity they have 238 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:07.800 a power base. 239 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:17.240 Coming up on Latino USA, we talked to another kind 240 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:21.160 of cholo, the Andean one, and look at why Peruvians 241 00:15:21.240 --> 00:16:19.400 have a complicated relationship with the term. Stay with us notes, Hey, 242 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.800 we're back. And when we left off, we had learned 243 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:26.240 about the centuries old roots of the word colo and 244 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.480 heard from a US Cholo from California. Now let's meet 245 00:16:30.520 --> 00:16:36.280 Marco Abiles. He's a Peruvian Cholo living in Maine. Here's 246 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:37.920 producer Emil Sekiros. 247 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.120 Cholo is a word Mexicans and people in the US 248 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.440 have used to label Chicanos that they deemed to be 249 00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:49.680 second class citizens, people from the inner city, people from 250 00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:53.320 el barrio who had limited resources and were subjected to 251 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.120 systemic and state violence. This doesn't sound like a term 252 00:16:57.160 --> 00:16:59.800 of endearment that I heard my partner use, but again, 253 00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:05.200 I don't really know how it is used in South America. 254 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.760 In order to understand Cholo culture from the Andes, I 255 00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:13.160 reached out to Marc Guabiles, a Peruvian journalist and self 256 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.840 identifying Cholo in the South American sense. He's also a 257 00:17:16.840 --> 00:17:19.720 published author with two books on the Andy and Cholo. 258 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:25.080 In his first book, or I'm Not Your Cholo, Marco 259 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.320 explores how harmful the word cholo is when it's used 260 00:17:28.320 --> 00:17:31.880 as an insult, the violence that carries, and how deep 261 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.679 this violence is embedded in Peruvian history. 262 00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:41.160 We Peruvians have like a very complicated relationship with this work. 263 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.120 When I was a kid, cholo was an insult that 264 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:51.560 I tried to run run away from. Cholo meant like 265 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:53.720 dirty Indian. 266 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.080 I had no idea that the word clo was still 267 00:17:57.080 --> 00:18:00.320 being used as a racial slur towards indigenous people in 268 00:18:00.320 --> 00:18:03.320 South America. The first time I had ever heard cholo 269 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.560 in the South American sense was remember when my partner 270 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.720 casually called her father a chorlito, But for her and 271 00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:14.200 her family, the term cholo or toilito is used to 272 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:19.119 acknowledge their indigenous heritage with pride. So I asked Marco 273 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.720 if the sport was being reclaimed and if it was, 274 00:18:22.040 --> 00:18:27.760 whether this revendication had been successful. He mentioned Bolivia, another 275 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:30.760 Indian country that commonly uses the word cholo. 276 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:35.760 So in Bolivia, for example, that cholita is is a 277 00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:42.800 woman dressed up with like you know, beautiful long skirts 278 00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:48.479 and like very colorful like dressing. And in the in 279 00:18:48.520 --> 00:18:53.080 the past in Bolivia, these women, like as most indigenous people, 280 00:18:53.080 --> 00:18:57.159 were treated like like aliens, like pretty bad. But with 281 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:01.639 a Moralis government in the early to thousands, there was 282 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:06.159 this movement and rabnication of the indigenous identities and also 283 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:11.639 the identity of indigenous women. So now when you go 284 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.600 to Olivia you see these indigenous women like everywhere in 285 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.119 La Paz or in Elato, of course, but there's also 286 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:25.080 a culture around like the tolita. It's an image of pride, 287 00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:29.840 of indigenous pride, So that is something very very very interesting, 288 00:19:30.320 --> 00:19:35.480 but still there in Bolivia, tolo mierda, like factinglo is 289 00:19:35.560 --> 00:19:39.880 still is used as an insult and very very very bad. 290 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.560 So I think what I'm trying to say is that 291 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:48.360 rave indication is not erasing the violence that is embedded 292 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:49.639 in this world. 293 00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:52.920 Marco is aware of the Mexican origin of the word 294 00:19:53.040 --> 00:19:55.359 and told me how it came to be introduced to Peru. 295 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:01.080 So the arena meaning of toolo is dug because in Mexico, 296 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.240 in the now, there's this like type of dog call 297 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.040 cholie squintly. So when they when they bring the world 298 00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:12.439 to Peru, they used it to name indigenous people. For 299 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.760 Spanish conquerors, indigenous were not like human beings. They were 300 00:20:16.840 --> 00:20:20.639 like animals. They were treated like animals, not only because 301 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.360 the color of their skin or because of their culture, 302 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.679 but because of the they were not like Christians. And 303 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.240 for me, it's very important to like notice that it 304 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.760 was an insult in the beginning, and it is an 305 00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:40.320 insult now. So that's that's the line that crosses the 306 00:20:40.760 --> 00:20:43.199 history of the word soolo, it's it was always a weapon. 307 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.679 Marco was unaware that cholo meant something different in the 308 00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:50.560 US and in Mexico too. It wasn't until he moved 309 00:20:50.560 --> 00:20:53.080 to the United States that his version of cholo and 310 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:55.400 the Mexican version of cholo collided. 311 00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:58.080 I was working as an interpreter and it was like, 312 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.040 I think in the in two thousand and sixteen, and 313 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:05.399 I was driving my car with a guy from I 314 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.879 think he was from what Is and we were talking 315 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.400 about about my book. And I was telling, hey, Roberto, 316 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.200 I'm going to publish this book. What's what's the name 317 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.160 of the book. Not so Tolo. I am not your chlo. 318 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.560 And he said, but you are not tallo. Why do 319 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.040 you use the word you are not cholo and I 320 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.359 and I said, of course, no, yes I am. I 321 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.800 am a chilo. In people like would call me like 322 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.879 tolo uh. And then he told me, no, Tolo in 323 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.119 Mexico is like this kind of like the member of 324 00:21:40.280 --> 00:21:43.600 a gang, like like a young guy using all this 325 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.600 like jewelry and with this like weird. 326 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:52.160 Hair, confused, just like I was. Marco also did his research. 327 00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:58.280 I could see still that the word cholo in used 328 00:21:58.280 --> 00:22:03.919 in Mexico or in the US, feel like something very aggressive. 329 00:22:06.760 --> 00:22:08.960 There's a general parttern that I can see is like 330 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.800 it is used the word sholo is used to name 331 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:16.680 like super standard people. So there's a standard people, which 332 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.320 is like white people or mestizo in in Latin American countries. 333 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.000 So we are the standard, we are the people, and 334 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.960 Cholos are the super standard those who are not yet 335 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:30.639 like the standard or human beings. And that is like, 336 00:22:30.800 --> 00:22:35.240 that is crazy. But what is also crazy for me 337 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.320 is that people who have power, people who are in power, 338 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.879 like white people, who we would say can't use the 339 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.959 word soolo in Latin America in a in a sweet 340 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.960 way like expressions of law. To do that, they need 341 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.840 to like eliminate all the context. And they eliminate all 342 00:22:54.840 --> 00:22:58.600 the context through ignorance, through you know, white innocence or 343 00:22:58.760 --> 00:22:59.600 white privilege. 344 00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:05.159 So why did you start identifying as a troller? 345 00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:09.800 I try to improve my relationship with this world because 346 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:13.200 I feel that, okay, this is an insult, but what 347 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.359 would happen if I just take the word from those 348 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:20.320 who use it to like insult me or punish me. 349 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.879 So I started like self identifying myself as a tolo 350 00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:28.199 as a way to fight against that violence. What I 351 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.840 tried to say is I come from this indigenous history 352 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.639 and I am not super standard, but I am like 353 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.000 part of a marginalized community, and I want to make 354 00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:46.040 that clear. I don't want to erase that, but that 355 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:48.679 is something that I started to do, like in my 356 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.280 late twenties, early thirties. 357 00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:54.760 And then Marco told me that in Peru and in 358 00:23:54.800 --> 00:23:58.000 other countries in Latin America, there's this idea that we're 359 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.560 all mestizos is persistent. It's the idea that we're all 360 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:07.800 mixed race without acknowledging the indigenous populations. 361 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.719 And that is that is a very very crazy idea 362 00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:13.040 because you go to the streets and you just see 363 00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:19.159 different types of people white, black, brown, whatever. So for me, 364 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.240 it is important to say that I am a Toto 365 00:24:21.320 --> 00:24:24.640 because I don't want to erase the disparities. I want 366 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:28.399 people to know it. And a way to do that 367 00:24:28.600 --> 00:24:32.480 is just like calling myself a cholo. I am not 368 00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:34.880 a white person, I'm not a mestizo. I'm a cholo. 369 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.679 After listening to Michael and Marco talk about their different 370 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.679 Trolo identities and we're reflecting on the racist, aggressive origin 371 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.880 and nature of this term, I wondered if there would 372 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.200 ever be a time where the term trolo could ever 373 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:54.280 just be something universally positive. Here's Michael again. 374 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:58.520 For me. Trollo here is derogatory in some ways the 375 00:24:58.560 --> 00:25:02.720 way people use it, but the way we interpret it 376 00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:04.840 is the way it should be looked at. You know 377 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.960 what I mean, Like I walk around, I'm a trollo. 378 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:10.560 I'm proud, you know what I mean. I go everywhere 379 00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:13.280 and people know what I am, so I'm proud of it. 380 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.280 You know, if we let it be a derogatory term, 381 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.520 then it just belittles us. Can't give that word power. 382 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.639 We have to use it to our advantage. But we 383 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.600 also have to teach the young kids the total doesn't 384 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.879 mean you have to kill another guy or you know 385 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:32.240 what I mean. We have to reach out to the 386 00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:35.280 children and say, hey, look guys, I grew up like this. 387 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:38.240 You know I've done that. You don't have to do that. 388 00:25:39.320 --> 00:25:41.560 Michael is less enthusiastic. 389 00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:45.160 So for indigenous people, the word total still is an insult, 390 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:49.640 and I think that is not going to change because sadly, 391 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:54.359 the conditions in which Indienous people living in Latin America 392 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:59.920 has not changed, and they are not changing. It's Indianus people. 393 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.520 We see what's going on with them in equal or 394 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:09.000 in Peru, in Guatemala, they are like sometimes it feels 395 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:14.120 drastic to talk about, like genoeside, but that's what is 396 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.000 happening with Indienus people since the Congress, and that it 397 00:26:18.080 --> 00:26:24.600 hasn't stopped. So I think maybe we can start like 398 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.400 finding different meanings for the word soolo and we can 399 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:32.639 use it in a very in a more sweet way. 400 00:26:33.040 --> 00:26:36.520 But what is going to be hard, really hard, is 401 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.280