WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:14.995 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:14.995 --> 00:00:19.795 podcast for and about the Internet. I am producer Georgia, 3 00:00:19.955 --> 00:00:23.475 filling in for Mike here in the intro and news segment of this 4 00:00:23.475 --> 00:00:28.355 lovely episode. And I am unafraid to say that we have a 5 00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:33.560 scintillating, sensational, and frankly, seismic episode for 6 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:38.040 you. Today, Mike takes a closer look at the idea that artificial 7 00:00:38.040 --> 00:00:41.160 intelligence is the new aesthetic of fascism, 8 00:00:41.635 --> 00:00:45.875 specifically new American fascism. And what does that 9 00:00:45.875 --> 00:00:48.035 relationship mean for us? 10 00:00:48.595 --> 00:00:52.515 Why do we feel like we have to connect those two things? Mike 11 00:00:52.515 --> 00:00:56.670 wonders at all of this in search of an answer. But before you 12 00:00:56.670 --> 00:01:02.030 hear any of that, it's time to listen to some ads. I know. I 13 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:02.590 know. 14 00:01:02.910 --> 00:01:06.830 Unless you're on the member feed. At which point, don't 15 00:01:06.830 --> 00:01:12.125 worry about it, baby. You're good. No ads for you. But when 16 00:01:12.125 --> 00:01:15.085 we return, we're gonna talk about some stuff that's happened 17 00:01:15.085 --> 00:01:17.325 in the world since you've last heard from us. 18 00:01:18.925 --> 00:01:22.765 And just like that, I'm back. I've got four stories for you. 19 00:01:23.850 --> 00:01:26.650 If you live in New York City, chances are you've seen the 20 00:01:26.650 --> 00:01:30.810 subway ads for friend.com, the latest attempt by the tech world 21 00:01:30.810 --> 00:01:34.890 to make the plot of the movie Her a reality. Friend presents 22 00:01:34.890 --> 00:01:40.255 itself as just that, your friend. If your friend was an AI 23 00:01:40.255 --> 00:01:43.295 chatbot that never challenges you or asks you any hard 24 00:01:43.295 --> 00:01:47.535 questions, friend takes the form of a simple white necklace with 25 00:01:47.535 --> 00:01:50.470 a little bobble hanging off of it that will text text you 26 00:01:50.470 --> 00:01:54.550 throughout the day stuff like, I'll never bail on dinner plans. 27 00:01:54.870 --> 00:01:58.790 Yikes. But as the New York Times reports, the subway ads have 28 00:01:58.790 --> 00:02:02.950 been the subject of a lot of backlash. A bunch of them have 29 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:06.455 since been scrawled over with messages about how AI will never 30 00:02:06.455 --> 00:02:09.575 be there for you and how you should make actual human 31 00:02:09.575 --> 00:02:13.415 friends. Some of the ads have just been ripped down entirely. 32 00:02:13.975 --> 00:02:17.730 The 22 year old founder of friend.com has spun this as 33 00:02:17.730 --> 00:02:20.850 proof that he's doing, quote, unquote, big things. 34 00:02:21.490 --> 00:02:24.450 But I personally hope it's nothing but a memetic flash in 35 00:02:24.450 --> 00:02:29.010 the pan and that friend is quickly forgotten. Who? ICE, 36 00:02:31.845 --> 00:02:34.885 enforcement brutes who are currently tearing my city apart, 37 00:02:35.125 --> 00:02:38.165 is looking to build out a twenty four seven social media 38 00:02:38.165 --> 00:02:43.285 surveillance team. The idea is to hire a team of 30 contractors 39 00:02:43.285 --> 00:02:47.420 to scour through social media profiles and create dossiers of 40 00:02:47.420 --> 00:02:51.820 individual people's data. Then, these contractors will send that 41 00:02:51.820 --> 00:02:55.580 information to ICE agents who will use it as a justification 42 00:02:55.580 --> 00:02:59.340 to imprison or deport any person they so choose. 43 00:02:59.645 --> 00:03:02.685 This team would fulfill the needs of two of the biggest ICE 44 00:03:02.685 --> 00:03:06.605 targeting centers. One in Vermont, which handles most of 45 00:03:06.605 --> 00:03:10.365 the ICE cases in the Eastern US, and one in California, which 46 00:03:10.365 --> 00:03:13.005 covers the West Coast. These social media surveillance 47 00:03:13.005 --> 00:03:17.430 contractors are meant to work around the clock, seven days a 48 00:03:17.430 --> 00:03:21.030 week, providing ICE agents with an endless stream of 49 00:03:21.030 --> 00:03:24.950 information. Now beyond the obvious terror that this 50 00:03:24.950 --> 00:03:27.990 suggests, there are also concerns about the abuse of 51 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:32.835 power by this surveillance team. As Del Cameron writes in Wired, 52 00:03:32.835 --> 00:03:37.075 quote, contractors are barred from creating fake profiles, 53 00:03:37.235 --> 00:03:40.595 interacting with people online, or storing personal data on 54 00:03:40.595 --> 00:03:41.635 their own networks. 55 00:03:41.955 --> 00:03:46.040 All analysis must remain on ICE servers. Servers. Past 56 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:49.800 experience, however, shows such guardrails can be flimsy, 57 00:03:49.880 --> 00:03:54.600 honored more in paperwork than in practice. May I be the first 58 00:03:54.600 --> 00:04:05.475 to say, speaking of ICE, both Apple and Google have banned ICE 59 00:04:05.475 --> 00:04:09.555 tracking apps from their app stores. For iPhone users, the 60 00:04:09.555 --> 00:04:14.835 app ICEBLOCK, which helps people report ICE activity, has been 61 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:14.980 axed. 62 00:04:15.220 --> 00:04:19.940 That then led both Apple and Google Play to remove Red Dot, 63 00:04:19.940 --> 00:04:23.460 another app that offers the same service. Google told four zero 64 00:04:23.460 --> 00:04:27.860 four Media that it, quote, removed the app because ICE is 65 00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:31.525 considered vulnerable group that had been targeted in recent 66 00:04:31.525 --> 00:04:32.245 violence. 67 00:04:33.285 --> 00:04:34.485 I'm scared. 68 00:04:35.525 --> 00:04:38.325 And now to change the vibe completely, 69 00:04:38.725 --> 00:04:43.125 Cracker Barrel. The restaurant chain briefly changed their logo 70 00:04:43.125 --> 00:04:46.830 from its more down home home brand that you know and love to 71 00:04:46.830 --> 00:04:51.230 a sans serif monstrosity, and the graphic design inclined 72 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:57.150 among us lost their minds online. Or did they? Gizmodo 73 00:04:57.150 --> 00:04:59.935 reported reported that apparently, a good chunk of the 74 00:04:59.935 --> 00:05:05.215 online hate lobbed at the old country store was the product of 75 00:05:05.215 --> 00:05:10.175 online bots. Peak metrics took a sample of 52,000 posts from 76 00:05:10.175 --> 00:05:12.870 Twitter that were made within twenty four hours of Cracker 77 00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:19.190 Barrel's rebranding announcement and found that 44.5% of those 78 00:05:19.190 --> 00:05:23.510 posts were flagged as likely or higher bot activity. 79 00:05:23.590 --> 00:05:27.315 It got even worse once people started posting about boycotting 80 00:05:27.315 --> 00:05:30.995 Cracker Barrel. Of the 1,000 posts in that twenty four hour 81 00:05:30.995 --> 00:05:36.195 timeline that mentioned a boycott, 49 were dinged as 82 00:05:36.195 --> 00:05:40.480 likely coming from accounts. Real people were also mad about 83 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.640 this, but the bots helped push things over the edge, leading 84 00:05:44.640 --> 00:05:48.480 the purveyor of highway exit biscuits and gravy to return to 85 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.645 their original branding. Now riddle me this. Do Twitter bots 86 00:05:52.645 --> 00:05:54.965 dream of electric hash browns? 87 00:05:54.965 --> 00:05:59.045 And that's all the news I've got for you this week. In this 88 00:05:59.045 --> 00:06:03.400 week's episode, Mike traverses the overlapping worlds of AI, 89 00:06:03.400 --> 00:06:11.400 aesthetics, and fascism. But first, on 09/26/2025, 85% of 90 00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:15.960 Kickstarter United members voted to authorize a strike beginning 91 00:06:15.960 --> 00:06:20.425 Thursday, October 2 at 8AM, unless management reached a fair 92 00:06:20.425 --> 00:06:25.385 contract agreement. Yesterday, October 7, six days into the 93 00:06:25.385 --> 00:06:28.265 strike, they took to the streets. And in our 94 00:06:28.265 --> 00:06:31.145 interstitials this week, we're heading to the picket line. 95 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:05.260 We deserve better. So be out for six months 96 00:07:05.260 --> 00:07:09.580 negotiating a contract. A contract that says what? 97 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:12.940 Affordability. That says what? 98 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:17.165 Fair pay. Because that's why we're here to stand up against 99 00:07:17.165 --> 00:07:19.725 the Boston and their Boston. 100 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:20.765 Yes. Yes. 101 00:07:22.525 --> 00:07:29.750 New York City is a union town. Banner stuff, we are reminded of 102 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:34.710 that it is labor. It is labor that took us from a seven day 103 00:07:34.710 --> 00:07:39.670 work week to a five day work week. And it is labor that's 104 00:07:39.670 --> 00:07:40.950 gonna take us 105 00:08:38.155 --> 00:08:41.275 I've seen this idea around a lot lately, one 106 00:08:41.275 --> 00:08:45.430 that proposes some link between artificial intelligence and new 107 00:08:45.430 --> 00:08:49.830 American fascism. An Atlantic headline from this month reads, 108 00:08:49.910 --> 00:08:54.150 AI and the rise of techno fascism in The United States. 109 00:08:54.390 --> 00:08:58.390 Back in February on New Socialist, AI, the new 110 00:08:58.390 --> 00:09:03.465 aesthetics of fascism. There's resisting AI, an anti fascist 111 00:09:03.465 --> 00:09:06.265 approach to artificial intelligence, a book published 112 00:09:06.265 --> 00:09:12.105 by Bristol University Press in 2022. There's AI beauty 113 00:09:12.105 --> 00:09:15.305 standards, fascism, and the proliferation of bot driven 114 00:09:15.305 --> 00:09:19.360 content, a paper in the journal AI and Society from this year. 115 00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:22.400 The editors of the literary theory magazine n plus one 116 00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:27.040 write, quote, when we use generative AI, we consent to the 117 00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:30.065 appropriation of our intellectual property by data 118 00:09:30.065 --> 00:09:34.065 scrapers. We stuff the pockets of oligarchs with even more 119 00:09:34.065 --> 00:09:38.625 money. We abet the acceleration of a social media guyer that 120 00:09:38.625 --> 00:09:45.185 everyone admits is making life worse. We hand over our autonomy 121 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:51.640 at the very moment of emerging American fascism, end quote. On 122 00:09:51.640 --> 00:09:55.720 social media, Reddit posts titled generative AI is a tool 123 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:56.680 of fascism. 124 00:09:56.760 --> 00:10:00.655 Do AI bros realize that if anything, they are the ones that 125 00:10:00.655 --> 00:10:06.895 enable fascism and not us? And AI and fascism, a love story. On 126 00:10:06.895 --> 00:10:10.655 Blue Sky, it cannot be stressed enough that AI art is the 127 00:10:10.655 --> 00:10:14.730 aesthetic of modern day fascism. I used to be wary of the whole 128 00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:18.410 AI is the aesthetics of fascism thing, but now I'm pretty sure 129 00:10:18.410 --> 00:10:23.050 that's right. Fascism hates creativity because fascism is 130 00:10:23.050 --> 00:10:28.010 unable to create anything, which is why all fasc bros love AI. 131 00:10:28.605 --> 00:10:32.925 And on YouTube, a litany of videos, the link between Nazis, 132 00:10:32.925 --> 00:10:38.045 fascism, and AI art with an asterisk for the a in Nazis. 133 00:10:38.445 --> 00:10:43.880 Fascists love terrible AI art. Here's why. AI fascism, how 134 00:10:43.880 --> 00:10:47.320 Trump and the far right turned AI into a weapon against 135 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:53.240 democracy. What I wonder is if the connection between 136 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.375 artificial intelligence and fascism, new American fascism 137 00:10:57.375 --> 00:11:00.255 specifically, is necessary. 138 00:11:01.135 --> 00:11:05.055 Is there something inherently fascistic about these 139 00:11:05.055 --> 00:11:08.415 technologies as many of these takes and headlines seem to 140 00:11:08.415 --> 00:11:13.170 suggest? Or barring that, have the aesthetics of generative AI 141 00:11:13.170 --> 00:11:17.730 become inextricably associated with the current American 142 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:22.210 regime? I wonder this earnestly. I don't actually know as I sit 143 00:11:22.210 --> 00:11:25.405 down to write this where I'm gonna end up, but it's this 144 00:11:25.405 --> 00:11:30.365 question that I'm gonna try to answer in this segment. But why, 145 00:11:30.365 --> 00:11:33.725 you may wonder, engage in this exercise? 146 00:11:34.205 --> 00:11:37.760 Does it really matter? Is there anything we can do? And I think 147 00:11:37.760 --> 00:11:41.280 both of those questions are kind of questions that I wanna 148 00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:44.240 answer. I mean, on top of the fact that, like, you know, I'm 149 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.520 I'm interested in meaning generally and how it's made. I'm 150 00:11:47.520 --> 00:11:51.120 interested in power and how it's maintained, especially through 151 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.355 art and media, which help create shared meaning. 152 00:11:54.675 --> 00:11:57.235 So if there's something inherently authoritarian about 153 00:11:57.235 --> 00:12:01.555 generative AI, it's instructive in either of those cases. And if 154 00:12:01.555 --> 00:12:05.610 there isn't, then maybe there's some surprising retributive uses 155 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:10.330 of the technology currently clouded, let's say, by the 156 00:12:10.330 --> 00:12:13.850 associations that we surveyed just a few seconds ago. To 157 00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:19.265 borrow and to misapply a phrase from Audre Lorde, we may ask, 158 00:12:19.265 --> 00:12:28.145 are these masters tools? Before we begin in earnest, there are a 159 00:12:28.145 --> 00:12:31.290 few things that I wanna stipulate. One, the headlines 160 00:12:31.290 --> 00:12:35.530 and posts above concern a broad set of AI applications, but they 161 00:12:35.530 --> 00:12:40.730 do focus mostly on generative AI images, which means we will too. 162 00:12:40.730 --> 00:12:45.050 LLMs and DOGE's AI powered gutting of the American federal 163 00:12:45.050 --> 00:12:48.615 government staff are all related, but those forms of AI 164 00:12:48.615 --> 00:12:54.375 are not our direct concern in this segment. Two, yes, AI is 165 00:12:54.535 --> 00:12:58.295 inherently violent in that the data centers powering it are 166 00:12:58.295 --> 00:13:01.850 implicated in countless ecological concerns. So too are 167 00:13:01.850 --> 00:13:05.610 many other things we do not label inherently fascist. Plus, 168 00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:08.170 I'm sort of just interested in maintaining a narrow focus on 169 00:13:08.170 --> 00:13:12.730 aesthetics for better or worse. And finally, we could argue 170 00:13:12.730 --> 00:13:15.770 about whether what is happening in The United States right now 171 00:13:15.770 --> 00:13:19.825 is in fact fasc ism, but we won't, for now. 172 00:13:19.985 --> 00:13:23.825 We're gonna recognize, that many people's day to day experiences 173 00:13:23.825 --> 00:13:29.105 in The US evoke living in a fascist state, and that's enough 174 00:13:29.185 --> 00:13:33.280 to proceed. We're gonna revisit this idea at the very end of 175 00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:41.200 this segment. Okay. So is there something inherently fascistic 176 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:44.880 about using models trained on large datasets of copyrighted 177 00:13:44.880 --> 00:13:48.855 works built by high valuation Silicon Valley tech companies to 178 00:13:48.855 --> 00:13:52.375 make pictures of, you know, whatever you want, anything you 179 00:13:52.375 --> 00:13:56.375 can imagine. The discourse suggests that the answer is 180 00:13:56.775 --> 00:13:57.575 absolutely. 181 00:13:58.450 --> 00:14:04.210 Let's look at some of the cases for why. Chief amongst them are 182 00:14:04.210 --> 00:14:07.250 the fact that the American Departments of Homeland Security 183 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:10.450 and Justice as well as the president himself, his cabinet 184 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:14.315 members, and other high level appointees use generative AI to 185 00:14:14.315 --> 00:14:18.075 create, and then share via official government social media 186 00:14:18.075 --> 00:14:22.715 accounts images that further their politics and policies. 187 00:14:23.035 --> 00:14:26.715 These images often evoked or directly reference, if not 188 00:14:26.910 --> 00:14:31.470 fascistic, then certainly white supremacist imagery. Dominican 189 00:14:31.470 --> 00:14:34.830 migrant Virginia Bassora Gonzales's arrest was rendered 190 00:14:34.830 --> 00:14:38.350 via AI as a Studio Ghibli animation frame and posted by 191 00:14:38.350 --> 00:14:42.515 the White House to x. The US DHS has posted various generated 192 00:14:42.515 --> 00:14:46.675 images of paintings showing uncle Sam or white settlers on 193 00:14:46.675 --> 00:14:49.635 the American frontier with captions like, remember your 194 00:14:49.635 --> 00:14:50.995 homeland's heritage. 195 00:14:51.395 --> 00:14:54.840 In its recruitment efforts, the DHS has published content which 196 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.040 appears is AI generated. For example, an image of uncle Sam 197 00:14:58.040 --> 00:15:00.760 standing at a crossroads with signs pointing in the direction 198 00:15:00.760 --> 00:15:06.440 of cultural decline, invasion, and homeland under the banner 199 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:11.225 join ice now. The Southern Poverty Law Center says this 200 00:15:11.225 --> 00:15:15.065 complex of references, quote, reflects an escalating trend in 201 00:15:15.065 --> 00:15:18.665 American immigration enforcement toward overt use of white 202 00:15:18.665 --> 00:15:22.460 nationalist and anti immigrant myths to recruit personnel and 203 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:26.540 justify departmental operations. This all may fall under what 204 00:15:26.540 --> 00:15:31.180 scholar Kate Crawford has termed AI slopaganda, quote, a 205 00:15:31.180 --> 00:15:35.180 reconstituted AI mash made from stock photos, commercials, 206 00:15:35.180 --> 00:15:39.025 Reddit, and Pinterest. Just add water, end quote. 207 00:15:39.185 --> 00:15:43.345 Or what Mitch Theriault writing for The Drift called agit slop, 208 00:15:43.345 --> 00:15:48.145 quote, brain dead detournement, far flung images and quotations 209 00:15:48.145 --> 00:15:52.570 drained of life and ground into a soylent like slurry to be 210 00:15:52.570 --> 00:15:56.170 shoveled indifferently into the gaping maw of the viewer, 211 00:15:56.250 --> 00:16:02.170 reader, absorber, end quote. All of it spewing endlessly into 212 00:16:02.170 --> 00:16:11.565 your feed, flooding the zone. But claiming this makes 213 00:16:11.565 --> 00:16:15.725 generative AI images, the aesthetic of fascism feels 214 00:16:15.885 --> 00:16:20.410 nonetheless a little bit hasty to me, like claiming oils are 215 00:16:20.410 --> 00:16:24.330 fascist because Hitler was a painter or that Roman ruins and 216 00:16:24.330 --> 00:16:30.170 statuary are fascistic because of Mussolini's or Twitter's 217 00:16:30.490 --> 00:16:33.775 obsession with them. See our segment on the matter. I'll put 218 00:16:33.775 --> 00:16:34.895 a link in the show notes. 219 00:16:35.135 --> 00:16:39.695 True. Both the Nazi and Italian fascist parties had strong 220 00:16:39.695 --> 00:16:43.615 visual aesthetics defined by starkness, rigidity, 221 00:16:43.615 --> 00:16:47.670 arrangement, and subservience, what Susan Sontag calls 222 00:16:47.670 --> 00:16:52.870 orgiastic transactions between mighty forces and their puppets 223 00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:56.470 on the German side, and as John Gantz describes it, a kind of 224 00:16:56.470 --> 00:17:01.695 absurd fusing of modernism and kitsch on the Italian side. But 225 00:17:01.695 --> 00:17:05.135 the use of generative AI, thus far at least, hasn't really 226 00:17:05.135 --> 00:17:09.215 resulted in such a strong singular set of iconography. 227 00:17:09.535 --> 00:17:14.255 It's just mountains of slop looking like anything. 228 00:17:15.055 --> 00:17:16.600 Everything, really. 229 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:26.040 We could take another approach and consider the, collaborative 230 00:17:26.040 --> 00:17:29.640 relationship between the US government and the AI industry. 231 00:17:30.065 --> 00:17:35.745 OpenAI, creators of ChatGPT and ChatGPT Gov, ex creators of 232 00:17:35.745 --> 00:17:40.865 Grok, are both working pasty, decaying hand in hand with the 233 00:17:40.865 --> 00:17:44.440 administration. The Mussolini quote that fascism should be 234 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.080 more properly called corporatism because it is the merger of 235 00:17:47.080 --> 00:17:50.440 state and corporate power is likely apocryphal, but 236 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:54.280 nonetheless, he did discuss the necessity of the fascist state 237 00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:58.760 controlling, assisting, and even managing industry in the 238 00:17:58.760 --> 00:18:03.055 maintenance of total state power. And anyone out there who 239 00:18:03.055 --> 00:18:06.335 reads the charts that come across their feed knows that 240 00:18:06.335 --> 00:18:11.055 tech generally and AI specifically is the American 241 00:18:11.055 --> 00:18:17.620 industry at the moment. Several of the pieces referenced at the 242 00:18:17.620 --> 00:18:20.580 top of this segment also put forth the idea that if you're 243 00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:25.235 already predisposed to the dehumanization of others Or even 244 00:18:25.235 --> 00:18:28.675 if you're just kind of a dick, the affordances of generative AI 245 00:18:28.835 --> 00:18:30.675 might align with your worldview. 246 00:18:30.755 --> 00:18:33.715 You don't need to pay or even interact with artists. The 247 00:18:33.715 --> 00:18:36.675 machine won't ever tell you no or say that your ideas are 248 00:18:36.675 --> 00:18:42.160 stupid or racist. Plus, you can soak up to your chin in an 249 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:48.480 endless regurgitated past, a warm chunky jacuzzi of times 250 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:53.935 gone by. You can generate as many Roman centurions and 251 00:18:53.935 --> 00:18:58.415 paintings as you like, especially on the $200 a month 252 00:18:58.415 --> 00:19:03.615 plan. And thank god, never once have to interact with someone 253 00:19:03.615 --> 00:19:06.180 who might be poor or queer. 254 00:19:18.935 --> 00:19:22.855 All of this is guilt by association, almost, 255 00:19:23.015 --> 00:19:25.575 circumstantial rather than making a case that there's 256 00:19:25.575 --> 00:19:28.935 something inescapably, intrinsically fascistic about 257 00:19:28.935 --> 00:19:32.870 generative AI. Some of the videos and essays that I 258 00:19:32.870 --> 00:19:35.990 mentioned at the top of this segment do try to take on the 259 00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:41.110 question of direct relation to varying degrees of success, and 260 00:19:41.110 --> 00:19:44.550 there's a character that appears again and again in their 261 00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:49.695 reasoning. And that character is a real guy whose name was Walter 262 00:19:49.695 --> 00:19:55.695 Benjamin. Benjamin was a German Jewish critical theorist who 263 00:19:55.695 --> 00:19:59.390 fled Germany during Hitler's rise to power. He died by 264 00:19:59.390 --> 00:20:02.510 suicide on the French Spanish border on his way to Portugal 265 00:20:02.510 --> 00:20:05.630 where he hoped to flee to The US when the Franco government of 266 00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:09.390 Spain announced that it would be deporting refugees of which he 267 00:20:09.390 --> 00:20:10.110 was one. 268 00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:14.270 His brother was killed in the Mauthausen Concentration Camp 269 00:20:13.415 --> 00:20:21.095 two years later. I can see why people continually bring up 270 00:20:21.095 --> 00:20:24.855 Benjamin. I do think his thought is really useful in approaching 271 00:20:24.855 --> 00:20:28.970 this series of questions, just not normally in the way that 272 00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:32.810 it's used. Benjamin's most well known work was published while 273 00:20:32.810 --> 00:20:37.210 he was in exile in Paris five years before his death. The work 274 00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:40.730 of art in the age of its technological reproducibility, 275 00:20:41.045 --> 00:20:45.285 as it's called in its second draft, discusses how art, media, 276 00:20:45.285 --> 00:20:49.445 and culture change when artworks are mass produced. 277 00:20:51.685 --> 00:20:56.005 His focus is largely on a new technology at the time, film and 278 00:20:56.005 --> 00:21:00.290 cinema, and how they can be used to organize and organize the 279 00:21:00.290 --> 00:21:05.970 perceptions of the masses. What withers in the age of 280 00:21:05.970 --> 00:21:10.050 technological reproducibility of the work of art, Benjamin 281 00:21:10.050 --> 00:21:16.285 writes, is the latter's aura. This concept, aura, is the one 282 00:21:16.285 --> 00:21:19.965 most seized upon both generally when discussing this essay and 283 00:21:19.965 --> 00:21:24.285 specifically when discussing how AI generated works may evince 284 00:21:24.285 --> 00:21:33.040 some inherent fascism. The line of thinking goes like this. A 285 00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:36.000 physical work of art is significant because of what it 286 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.080 has literally, meaning physically, historically, been 287 00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:40.400 through. 288 00:21:41.065 --> 00:21:46.825 This is what gives it aura. So artworks endlessly reproduced by 289 00:21:46.825 --> 00:21:51.785 technology lack the authenticity granted them by a singular 290 00:21:51.785 --> 00:21:56.860 physical presence, and therefore, they lack aura. But 291 00:21:56.860 --> 00:22:00.540 fascism is unconcerned with a lack of aura insofar as it 292 00:22:00.540 --> 00:22:04.300 represents a kind of truth or respect for the fact of 293 00:22:04.300 --> 00:22:10.445 existence. Fascism will happily traffic reproduction to further 294 00:22:10.445 --> 00:22:16.045 its heinous aims. Ergo, AI generated images meaningfully 295 00:22:16.045 --> 00:22:19.245 lacking in aura and authenticity because they are endlessly 296 00:22:19.245 --> 00:22:23.325 reproduced must therefore be fascist. 297 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.560 This isn't really what Benjamin is saying. And even if it was, I 298 00:22:36.560 --> 00:22:39.555 don't think it's necessarily right. I don't think it's wrong 299 00:22:39.555 --> 00:22:42.435 to say that Benjamin's ideas provide us with a way to look at 300 00:22:42.435 --> 00:22:46.115 the political, potentially fascistic uses of generative AI, 301 00:22:46.275 --> 00:22:49.395 but I don't know if it's entirely through aura that we 302 00:22:49.395 --> 00:22:52.195 should do that. And I don't really know if aura helps us say 303 00:22:52.195 --> 00:22:55.910 anything about the inherent nature of a specific technology, 304 00:22:56.310 --> 00:23:00.710 especially not now in 2025. Benjamin was writing in the 305 00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:04.230 nineteen thirties, nearly a hundred years ago, at a time 306 00:23:04.230 --> 00:23:08.805 when highly reproducible works and the cult of audience, as he 307 00:23:08.805 --> 00:23:12.005 wrote, that they captured were relatively new. 308 00:23:12.405 --> 00:23:17.125 He was writing before popular culture existed as such, before 309 00:23:17.125 --> 00:23:21.740 mass media had a consistent referent. Today, the lack of 310 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:25.340 aura in artworks has become a kind of almost de facto 311 00:23:25.340 --> 00:23:29.100 standard. Books, music, television, video games, movies, 312 00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:32.220 which we're gonna talk more about later, YouTube videos, 313 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:35.625 anything on the Internet, really, they're all copies with 314 00:23:35.625 --> 00:23:40.025 no meaningfully accessible original. In the narrow case of 315 00:23:40.025 --> 00:23:44.425 their endless reproducibility, at least, AI images are no 316 00:23:44.425 --> 00:23:48.985 different from podcasts, which are not often described as 317 00:23:49.780 --> 00:23:57.620 inherently fascistic. But there are a few other thoughts of 318 00:23:57.620 --> 00:24:01.300 Benjamin's we may turn to in addition in an attempt to answer 319 00:24:01.300 --> 00:24:07.315 the question, if some medium does essentially aid fascism, 320 00:24:07.635 --> 00:24:09.075 how might it do that? 321 00:24:12.435 --> 00:24:16.115 We're gonna take a quick break, and then when we're back, more 322 00:24:16.115 --> 00:24:16.595 Benjamin. 323 00:24:32.445 --> 00:24:36.205 When say union, you say power. Union. Power. Union. 324 00:24:36.205 --> 00:24:36.765 Power. 325 00:24:37.245 --> 00:24:42.605 Power. Power. When I say worker, you say power. Worker. Worker. 326 00:24:42.605 --> 00:24:43.405 Worker. Worker. 327 00:24:47.080 --> 00:24:50.600 Okay. Thank you. We have another speaker for you. Tremlin 328 00:24:50.600 --> 00:24:53.000 Griffith, president of the New York City 329 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.440 Central Labor Council is here. I would love to welcome him up. 330 00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:57.320 Say a few words. 331 00:25:01.825 --> 00:25:05.825 I have two very, very quick messages. The first is thank 332 00:25:05.825 --> 00:25:09.585 you. Thank you for standing up. Thank you for standing together. 333 00:25:09.585 --> 00:25:10.945 Thank you for standing strong. 334 00:25:10.945 --> 00:25:14.410 Thank you for standing united. Now I'm gonna say something that 335 00:25:14.410 --> 00:25:18.730 is not fair. It is not fair that you have to do this. It is not 336 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:21.130 fair that you have to be here now. It is not fair that you 337 00:25:21.130 --> 00:25:22.810 have to go on strike for what you want. 338 00:25:22.890 --> 00:25:25.530 But brothers and sisters, the fight that you are in is the 339 00:25:25.530 --> 00:25:29.045 fight for every worker to raise standards on every contract. 340 00:25:29.205 --> 00:25:32.485 Every victory moves us forward. Every victory moves working 341 00:25:32.485 --> 00:25:36.325 people on. Because we know it is not a complicated thing to ask 342 00:25:36.325 --> 00:25:39.205 for good wages and scheduling. That is not about numbers on a 343 00:25:39.205 --> 00:25:39.765 piece of paper. 344 00:25:39.765 --> 00:25:42.110 It's not about profit. It's about the very lives that you 345 00:25:42.110 --> 00:25:51.230 live. We do not we do not live to work. We work to live. We 346 00:25:51.630 --> 00:25:52.910 say, hell no. 347 00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:59.155 Not not tomorrow. So thank you. The second message is sisters 348 00:25:59.155 --> 00:26:03.555 and brothers, you are not alone. There are 1,000,000 members of 349 00:26:03.555 --> 00:26:06.675 unions who are standing with you. And even as I say that, I 350 00:26:06.675 --> 00:26:09.490 know I know that sometimes it's hard to feel, but we have so 351 00:26:09.490 --> 00:26:10.370 much in common. 352 00:26:10.450 --> 00:26:12.610 And I would just ask, maybe you could help me show this, sisters 353 00:26:12.610 --> 00:26:15.810 and brothers. So can I ask, do you know somebody who lives 354 00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:18.610 paycheck to paycheck? If you do, raise your hand. Raise your 355 00:26:18.610 --> 00:26:19.730 hand. Keep those hands up. 356 00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:21.785 Do you know somebody who's worried about paying their rent 357 00:26:21.785 --> 00:26:25.705 next month? Do you know somebody who's worried about retiring? Do 358 00:26:25.705 --> 00:26:28.265 you know somebody who's worried about health care? Yes. We all 359 00:26:28.265 --> 00:26:28.825 know these people. 360 00:26:28.825 --> 00:26:31.145 And sisters and brothers, if your hand is not in the fist 361 00:26:31.145 --> 00:26:33.960 yet, put your hand in a fist because I am with you. We are 362 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.840 with you today, tomorrow, as long as it takes for you to get 363 00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:38.840 the contract that you deserve. Thank you. 364 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.520 Benjamin writes, quote, it has always been one of 365 00:27:10.520 --> 00:27:15.400 the primary tasks of art to create a demand whose hour of 366 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:21.535 full satisfaction has not yet come, end quote. Art and artists 367 00:27:21.535 --> 00:27:26.575 imagine new worlds ahead of their necessity, while 368 00:27:26.575 --> 00:27:32.570 technology recreates the existing world over and over and 369 00:27:32.570 --> 00:27:36.490 over again, and furthermore insists that people adapt 370 00:27:36.490 --> 00:27:39.290 themselves, adapt their perceptions, adapt their 371 00:27:39.290 --> 00:27:45.370 reactions to its output. By becoming an audience, people 372 00:27:45.370 --> 00:27:50.965 attain a cursed kind of freedom within very narrow boundaries. 373 00:27:51.445 --> 00:27:55.125 This is a feeling that's maybe relatable to a lot of us 374 00:27:55.285 --> 00:28:01.045 thinking about, say, TikTok. A technology which over the last 375 00:28:01.045 --> 00:28:07.100 very short amount of time, many of us have bent and shifted our 376 00:28:07.100 --> 00:28:08.940 lives to accommodate. 377 00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:14.060 Benjamin was concerned with the creation and maintenance of 378 00:28:14.060 --> 00:28:17.895 masses through the media, both how they may be controlled, but 379 00:28:17.895 --> 00:28:22.855 also how they may be loosened to resist control. He declared 380 00:28:22.855 --> 00:28:27.415 famously that fascism seeks to give the masses expression, but 381 00:28:27.415 --> 00:28:32.375 nothing else, thus compacting those masses into a frenzied 382 00:28:32.375 --> 00:28:38.270 block. No rights, no change in property relations, just 383 00:28:38.270 --> 00:28:42.910 feelings of power and feelings of dominance through available 384 00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:48.025 imagery. No actual political agency is granted. No self 385 00:28:48.025 --> 00:28:50.185 determination is awarded. 386 00:28:50.665 --> 00:29:03.850 Only a mighty force and its puppets. This, I think, may get 387 00:29:03.850 --> 00:29:08.410 us closer to an inherent link between slop and fascism. 388 00:29:08.730 --> 00:29:13.130 Generative AI awards one an intoxicating kind of ability to 389 00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:19.045 render the whole world and more in images free from any of the 390 00:29:19.045 --> 00:29:23.365 cost or consequence or consideration for what manually 391 00:29:23.365 --> 00:29:29.765 making those images entails. It confuses and maybe even fuses 392 00:29:30.085 --> 00:29:35.340 the role of creator and audience, awarding a kind of 393 00:29:35.340 --> 00:29:40.780 freedom and so also a kind of power, but, again, only very 394 00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:45.020 narrowly. The technology's output is illustration without 395 00:29:45.020 --> 00:29:49.605 illustrator, painting without painter, video without camera. 396 00:29:49.845 --> 00:29:53.765 The prompter is powerful, but only within the narrow bounds of 397 00:29:53.765 --> 00:29:58.590 the software's capability. They take action without agency, For 398 00:29:58.590 --> 00:30:02.030 one is always ultimately at the mercy of the software, the 399 00:30:02.030 --> 00:30:06.910 model, the platform, the black box playing at remove a complex 400 00:30:06.910 --> 00:30:11.645 probability game to give you what it thinks is right. The 401 00:30:11.645 --> 00:30:16.525 infinite intern providing the world's most content y content 402 00:30:16.525 --> 00:30:22.365 for your continuous approval and entertainment. This process is 403 00:30:22.365 --> 00:30:27.150 always, always, always by its very design, an endless 404 00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:31.550 recreation of the already existing world. Fully generated 405 00:30:31.550 --> 00:30:35.310 works are notably not copyrightable. 406 00:30:35.310 --> 00:30:39.230 Not yet, at least. No property relations are created. 407 00:30:39.795 --> 00:30:47.155 Certainly, none are changed. Benjamin writes of the Italian 408 00:30:47.155 --> 00:30:50.915 futurists, a fascist art movement which celebrated war, 409 00:30:50.915 --> 00:30:55.010 machinery, speed, engines, metal, and industry for all of 410 00:30:55.010 --> 00:30:58.850 the force and fervor and upset that they felt they represented. 411 00:30:59.090 --> 00:31:02.850 They celebrated, they thought, an upheaval, but in fact, 412 00:31:02.850 --> 00:31:06.615 practiced a kind of subservience to both literal and figurative 413 00:31:06.615 --> 00:31:09.815 machinery of a violent oppressive state. 414 00:31:10.375 --> 00:31:13.735 Humberto Eco, in his essay Er Fascism, writes of the 415 00:31:13.735 --> 00:31:18.615 irrationality of fascism, how it depends on, quote, the cult of 416 00:31:18.615 --> 00:31:23.490 action for action's sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it 417 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:28.370 must be taken before or without any previous reflection. 418 00:31:28.530 --> 00:31:32.210 Thinking is a form of emasculation, end quote. 419 00:31:33.755 --> 00:31:37.435 Benjamin writes of the still machines of a depressed economy 420 00:31:37.435 --> 00:31:42.315 under fascism, reanimated in the only way that does not empower 421 00:31:42.315 --> 00:31:48.160 the workers operating them. Only war, he writes, makes it 422 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:52.800 possible to mobilize all of today's technological resources 423 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.200 while maintaining property relations, end quote. 424 00:32:00.835 --> 00:32:07.475 It's hard to hear this and not think today of ChatGPT, of Grok, 425 00:32:07.635 --> 00:32:11.315 of DHS recruitment posters warning of invasions, and really 426 00:32:11.635 --> 00:32:15.510 of Palantir. But they're a bit tangential to our narrow focus 427 00:32:15.510 --> 00:32:18.550 because I don't think you can use Palantir to generate a 428 00:32:18.550 --> 00:32:27.350 racist Studio Ghibli frame. One can imagine a DOJ bureaucrat 429 00:32:27.285 --> 00:32:31.285 wrapped in the glow of the prompting screen negotiating 430 00:32:31.445 --> 00:32:35.685 with a robot that only knows the past and not really considering 431 00:32:35.685 --> 00:32:39.205 if it even makes sense to Ghiblify a state department 432 00:32:39.205 --> 00:32:43.030 detention, not stopping to wonder if it sends the right 433 00:32:43.030 --> 00:32:46.710 message to depict the president as Apocalypse Now's lieutenant 434 00:32:46.710 --> 00:32:49.910 colonel Kilgore while threatening, quote, war on 435 00:32:49.910 --> 00:32:54.895 Chicago. The response, one also imagines, to these wonders are 436 00:32:54.895 --> 00:32:58.175 the same and the same as asking what government officials mean 437 00:32:58.175 --> 00:33:01.295 when posting images reminiscent of white nationalist artwork 438 00:33:01.295 --> 00:33:04.175 from two centuries ago or pictures of the president as the 439 00:33:04.175 --> 00:33:12.040 pope, and that response is lull. To paraphrase Sartre from anti 440 00:33:12.040 --> 00:33:14.760 Semite and Jew, they're amusing themselves. 441 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.720 Only their adversary is obliged to communicate responsibly. They 442 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:26.765 are taking action for action's sake. The overall aesthetic as 443 00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:31.885 such becomes one of cruelty and subservience to a power which is 444 00:33:31.885 --> 00:33:36.525 adored above all else. Submissiveness, dehumanization, 445 00:33:37.030 --> 00:33:41.430 adoration of authority all become more palatable when the 446 00:33:41.430 --> 00:33:46.150 world is nothing but an array of images. Human beings become 447 00:33:46.150 --> 00:33:50.470 paper dolls to be collaged, accessorized, cut up, and 448 00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:54.975 crumpled, placed in their little play dioramas, and made to dance 449 00:33:54.975 --> 00:33:56.015 for yucks. 450 00:33:56.655 --> 00:34:01.295 The world is made media in this fact. It becomes unreal, 451 00:34:01.535 --> 00:34:05.215 distant, or entirely absent, something society has been 452 00:34:05.215 --> 00:34:08.840 reckoning with vis a vis the Internet for a while now, but 453 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:14.600 which finds new urgency in the age of AI. This is at least 454 00:34:14.600 --> 00:34:18.440 partially a concern related to aura. And so far as what aura 455 00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.080 connotes is the fundamental significance of something which 456 00:34:21.080 --> 00:34:25.365 has been created and has a physical existence, be that a 457 00:34:25.365 --> 00:34:29.125 work of art or a human being. But it's also a question of 458 00:34:29.125 --> 00:34:34.005 agency, of what actions are taken and by whom and how these 459 00:34:34.005 --> 00:34:36.325 facts impact material conditions. 460 00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:40.530 This defines the use of generative AI more than their 461 00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:44.930 look in my mind. The method of their creation, endless, 462 00:34:44.930 --> 00:34:49.250 effortless, endlessly, and effortlessly costly, a process 463 00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:54.325 which exhibits an undeniable eeriness in the sense theorist 464 00:34:54.325 --> 00:35:05.365 and critic Mark Fisher wrote of it. Fisher wrote of the weird 465 00:35:05.160 --> 00:35:08.920 and the eerie as a pair of affects that exemplify the often 466 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:13.240 mysterious circumstances of contemporary life. The weird 467 00:35:13.240 --> 00:35:17.560 speaks to, quote, a presence, that which does not belong, end 468 00:35:17.560 --> 00:35:21.435 quote. Like Lovecraft's interjection of unknowable 469 00:35:21.435 --> 00:35:25.515 otherworldly entities into New England. 470 00:35:26.475 --> 00:35:31.035 But the eerie speaks to, quote, a failure of absence or a 471 00:35:31.035 --> 00:35:34.920 failure of presence. When there is something present where there 472 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.040 should be nothing or there is nothing present where there 473 00:35:38.040 --> 00:35:43.400 should be something, end quote. Capitalism, Fisher argues, is a 474 00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:48.325 fundamentally eerie force. The famously invisible hand of its 475 00:35:48.325 --> 00:35:54.405 markets bend, shift, and pull at all aspects of our lives. The 476 00:35:54.405 --> 00:35:57.605 eerie, Fisher writes, is ultimately tied up with 477 00:35:57.605 --> 00:36:00.220 questions of agency. 478 00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:10.300 It's unclear, in other words, who is acting and how? Who is 479 00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:16.085 acting and how when generating images using AI is murky at 480 00:36:16.085 --> 00:36:19.205 best. The person writing the prompt, the software, the 481 00:36:19.205 --> 00:36:22.645 software developers, the model, and its source material are all 482 00:36:22.645 --> 00:36:26.405 implicated in ways that we don't yet share a comfortable 483 00:36:26.405 --> 00:36:31.510 understanding of. The eerie is conceptually downstream of an 484 00:36:31.510 --> 00:36:36.550 uninhibited machinic generation, the costs of which are deeply 485 00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:41.510 buried or subsidized by the most vulnerable of us and made 486 00:36:41.510 --> 00:36:46.085 invisible or barely visible, artists by the use of their 487 00:36:46.085 --> 00:36:50.005 works as training data, the general population by its 488 00:36:50.005 --> 00:36:53.365 exposure to the environmental impacts of the data centers 489 00:36:53.365 --> 00:36:58.620 which power the technology, to name two such examples. The lack 490 00:36:58.620 --> 00:37:04.140 of aura in generative AI images is a symptom, not a cause of a 491 00:37:04.140 --> 00:37:08.620 celebration of engines, metal, and industry, action for 492 00:37:08.620 --> 00:37:12.380 action's sake, the output of which altogether forms a media 493 00:37:12.380 --> 00:37:17.235 complex that is additionally deeply eerie and furthermore 494 00:37:17.395 --> 00:37:22.435 hauntological, Fisher's term for a past that invades and 495 00:37:22.435 --> 00:37:25.395 inescapably suffuses the present. 496 00:37:26.675 --> 00:37:32.660 The question, though, is if these things are aesthetic. I'm 497 00:37:32.660 --> 00:37:36.980 not sure, to be honest. I don't think so. Overall, the aesthetic 498 00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:40.820 of new American fascism and its posts remain as incoherent as 499 00:37:40.820 --> 00:37:44.335 its attempts at governing and statecraft and economic policy 500 00:37:44.335 --> 00:37:49.135 and staffing and so on and so forth. Ghiblify to photos next 501 00:37:49.135 --> 00:37:53.295 to cinematic film stills, next to portraits, next to nineteenth 502 00:37:53.295 --> 00:37:57.375 century landscape portraiture, next to mid century jingoism, 503 00:37:57.375 --> 00:38:01.830 next to jib jab style paper doll deepfakes, next to seventies era 504 00:38:01.830 --> 00:38:06.310 graphic design, it's all a perpetual stew of every visual 505 00:38:06.310 --> 00:38:12.275 element of some political import over the last 200 leading to a 506 00:38:12.275 --> 00:38:17.075 brand that's only identifiable via the most vague affect, a 507 00:38:17.075 --> 00:38:19.635 desire to be seen as powerful. 508 00:38:20.435 --> 00:38:24.835 And so they adopt the more general aesthetic of generated 509 00:38:24.835 --> 00:38:29.360 works, something between trend surfing and the kind of oblique 510 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.240 know it when you see it qualities we discussed 511 00:38:32.240 --> 00:38:35.840 previously in the generated ish segment. We'll put a link to 512 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:40.415 that in the show notes as well. But the big question is, have 513 00:38:40.415 --> 00:38:46.735 the architects of new American fascism exerted so much power in 514 00:38:46.735 --> 00:38:51.750 creating and disseminating these types of images that their 515 00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:56.470 visual characteristics, however broad they may be, have become 516 00:38:56.710 --> 00:39:03.510 unquestionably theirs. When I see a generated image, do I 517 00:39:03.510 --> 00:39:08.095 think, regardless of context, of a particular authoritarian 518 00:39:08.095 --> 00:39:12.335 regime, similar to how I might when encountering silver on 519 00:39:12.335 --> 00:39:19.710 black or the work of the Italian futurists? Not yet, I don't. 520 00:39:19.870 --> 00:39:22.910 But there's still time, and there remains the chance that 521 00:39:22.910 --> 00:39:26.670 such associations could be wrestled back out of their 522 00:39:26.670 --> 00:39:35.845 grasp. Throughout much of the work of art, Benjamin formulates 523 00:39:35.845 --> 00:39:40.645 a nascent kind of media theory around film and cinema, a 524 00:39:40.645 --> 00:39:43.365 significant technological development of his time, the 525 00:39:43.365 --> 00:39:47.045 foremost exemplar of reproduction without original, 526 00:39:47.045 --> 00:39:55.170 and a medium employed to great notoriety by fascists. The 527 00:39:55.170 --> 00:39:59.490 films, The Victory of Faith and Day of Freedom, Our Armed 528 00:39:59.490 --> 00:40:03.995 Forces, both directed by Lenny Riefenstahl, Hans Vestmar, a 529 00:40:03.995 --> 00:40:08.395 fictionalized biography of Nazi martyr Horst Vessel. Hitler 530 00:40:08.395 --> 00:40:11.915 Jungkook Kex produced by Carl Ritter and released in The US as 531 00:40:11.915 --> 00:40:17.370 Our Flag Leads Us Forward, and more are all third Reich films 532 00:40:17.370 --> 00:40:20.250 which would have been released around the time Benjamin was 533 00:40:20.250 --> 00:40:24.330 working on his various versions of the work of art in the age of 534 00:40:24.330 --> 00:40:28.650 its mechanical reproducibility. Filmmaking, Benjamin thought, 535 00:40:28.650 --> 00:40:31.530 had been captured by capital. 536 00:40:32.225 --> 00:40:36.625 And rather than being a tool for workers to build solidarity to 537 00:40:36.625 --> 00:40:41.105 understand, quote, themselves and therefore their class, it 538 00:40:41.105 --> 00:40:46.385 was used to mollify and compact the masses subjected to it and 539 00:40:46.385 --> 00:40:51.410 entranced by it. The same is true of film capital in 540 00:40:51.410 --> 00:40:56.530 particular as of fascism in general, Benjamin writes. A 541 00:40:56.530 --> 00:41:01.010 compelling urge toward new social opportunities is being 542 00:41:01.010 --> 00:41:34.465 clandestinely that. And we're so technology that provides new 543 00:41:34.465 --> 00:41:37.665 social opportunities from the grips of capital, from the 544 00:41:37.665 --> 00:41:41.345 controlling grasp of the property owning minority in the 545 00:41:41.345 --> 00:41:47.060 long term. In the face of an aestheticized politics, the only 546 00:41:47.060 --> 00:41:51.940 choice, Benjamin says, is to politicize aesthetics, to turn 547 00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:56.820 art for art's sake into a revolutionary force of art for 548 00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:57.860 humanity's sake. 549 00:42:02.765 --> 00:42:06.765 This was perhaps arguably and not entirely, but meaningfully 550 00:42:06.765 --> 00:42:10.845 accomplished with film, which in the last hundred years has 551 00:42:10.845 --> 00:42:16.685 joined literature and painting as an art form widely understood 552 00:42:15.890 --> 00:42:21.170 is capable of laying bare some aspect of the human condition 553 00:42:21.250 --> 00:42:24.610 even while also bringing us things like Ant Man and the Wasp 554 00:42:24.610 --> 00:42:30.485 Quantumania. Can the same thing happen with generative AI? Can 555 00:42:30.485 --> 00:42:34.965 it be rescued from capital to become a revolutionary force of 556 00:42:34.965 --> 00:42:39.525 art for humanity's sake? Or maybe the more practical version 557 00:42:39.525 --> 00:42:43.525 of this question is, does anybody want to try to rescue 558 00:42:43.525 --> 00:42:46.650 it? Is anybody even interested in doing that? 559 00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:50.730 Kate Crawford writes that building such alternatives for 560 00:42:50.730 --> 00:42:54.250 generative AI, quote, would demand the fundamental 561 00:42:54.250 --> 00:42:57.690 transformation of existing technical and economic 562 00:42:57.690 --> 00:43:01.975 arrangements, alternative energy systems, cooperative ownership 563 00:43:01.975 --> 00:43:05.655 models, and cultural protocols that resist algorithmic 564 00:43:05.655 --> 00:43:09.415 ingestion. The question that remains is whether we will 565 00:43:09.415 --> 00:43:13.175 choose to embrace slop or cultivate desire for something 566 00:43:13.175 --> 00:43:17.230 else entirely, Cultural forms moving beyond synthetic 567 00:43:17.230 --> 00:43:20.830 reproduction oriented toward flourishing rather than 568 00:43:20.830 --> 00:43:24.910 extraction, toward ecological regeneration rather than a 569 00:43:24.910 --> 00:43:31.645 hypermetabolic state of exhaustion and breakdown. A tall 570 00:43:31.645 --> 00:43:35.725 order, for sure, and perhaps the answer to one of our questions. 571 00:43:36.045 --> 00:43:39.405 Is generative AI the aesthetic of new American fascism? No. 572 00:43:40.040 --> 00:43:47.160 But it could become so if we let it, if we want it to. And maybe 573 00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:52.200 some portion of us want it to. From one perspective, the anti 574 00:43:52.200 --> 00:43:55.965 AI one, to be clear, there is some utility in letting the 575 00:43:55.965 --> 00:43:59.805 generated ish aesthetic become twinned with the architects of 576 00:43:59.805 --> 00:44:03.725 the current American state and their cronies. To the degree 577 00:44:03.725 --> 00:44:07.325 that one will ever be able to confidently identify the output 578 00:44:07.325 --> 00:44:11.090 of this technology, that output could then always bring to mind 579 00:44:11.090 --> 00:44:16.050 this cohort of bumbling, calamitous strongmen, the de 580 00:44:16.050 --> 00:44:20.210 architects of American visual culture, to say nothing of the 581 00:44:20.210 --> 00:44:24.645 culture itself. Or slop to become this administration's 582 00:44:24.645 --> 00:44:28.245 silver on black or this administration's Stalinist 583 00:44:28.245 --> 00:44:32.805 socialist realism, it might halt what waning momentum it retains, 584 00:44:32.965 --> 00:44:37.240 being seen to signal and in no small way create the reality 585 00:44:37.240 --> 00:44:39.880 that new American fascism seeks. 586 00:44:41.080 --> 00:44:44.680 Which brings us finally back to another question raised at the 587 00:44:44.680 --> 00:44:50.840 top of this segment. Is what is happening right now fascism in 588 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:57.665 fact? I don't think so, but it's not for lack of trying. I do 589 00:44:57.665 --> 00:45:00.545 genuinely believe that The United States is simply too 590 00:45:00.545 --> 00:45:05.890 large and too diverse for fascism to take total hold. This 591 00:45:05.890 --> 00:45:09.250 is not to say that there will not be and has not already been 592 00:45:09.490 --> 00:45:14.610 misery and suffering on a large and completely unnecessary scale 593 00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:17.810 while various members of the administration and the corporate 594 00:45:17.810 --> 00:45:20.745 class with whom they've partnered consolidate their 595 00:45:20.745 --> 00:45:21.305 power. 596 00:45:22.665 --> 00:45:29.065 What this group is arguably best at is posting. This is a 597 00:45:29.065 --> 00:45:34.900 government by, for, and of posters. They excel at a 598 00:45:34.900 --> 00:45:38.500 particular kind of public performance, not delivering a 599 00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:43.380 coherent message, not inspiring adoration nor dedication, not, I 600 00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:47.475 don't think, in Benjamin's terms, compacting masses, at 601 00:45:47.475 --> 00:45:49.955 least not the degree to which other fascist movements have 602 00:45:49.955 --> 00:45:54.195 been able to. They are good at gaining and maintaining 603 00:45:54.515 --> 00:45:59.955 attention, but not many of the things that usually follow once 604 00:45:59.955 --> 00:46:05.120 one has it. One need only see Secretary of Defense Pete 605 00:46:05.120 --> 00:46:09.680 Hegseth on stage fulminating at the country's collected military 606 00:46:09.680 --> 00:46:13.520 personnel to be disabused of the notion that our leaders have 607 00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:17.125 requisite amounts of charisma capable of being meaningfully 608 00:46:17.125 --> 00:46:18.005 weaponized. 609 00:46:18.485 --> 00:46:23.045 They are knowledgeable about, maybe even obsessed with, the 610 00:46:23.045 --> 00:46:27.765 media. How it's made, how it's useful, the social and economic 611 00:46:27.765 --> 00:46:32.500 position it occupies, and the power it commands. Slop, sludge, 612 00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:38.100 slopaganda, and agit slop included. They are posters at 613 00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:43.540 heart more so than they are leaders. They would appear to 614 00:46:43.540 --> 00:46:50.075 put more effort, effort into creating the appearance of a 615 00:46:50.075 --> 00:46:55.195 fascist state, a state itself all about appearances, than 616 00:46:55.195 --> 00:46:56.475 anything beyond that. 617 00:47:07.090 --> 00:47:09.970 It's perhaps that they don't know there's a step beyond this 618 00:47:09.970 --> 00:47:13.250 one. It's perhaps they don't care. It's perhaps they don't 619 00:47:13.250 --> 00:47:16.695 know how to progress their project past this stage. It's 620 00:47:16.695 --> 00:47:21.735 perhaps that they are always just on the verge of figuring it 621 00:47:21.735 --> 00:47:31.090 out. But what remains is that slop and the technology that 622 00:47:31.090 --> 00:47:36.130 powers it is indeed one of the most used tools in their box. 623 00:47:36.130 --> 00:47:41.170 Hegseth himself on stage said, this urgent moment requires more 624 00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:45.505 troops, more munitions, more drones, more Patriot missiles, 625 00:47:45.505 --> 00:47:49.425 more submarines, more b 21 bombers. It requires more 626 00:47:49.425 --> 00:47:52.305 innovation, more AI in everything and ahead of the 627 00:47:52.305 --> 00:47:59.440 curve, more cyber effects, more space, more speed. Here is 628 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:04.320 American action for action's sake, a celebration of war, 629 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:10.495 speed, and machinery, betraying a subservience to the very same 630 00:48:10.495 --> 00:48:15.775 in the absence of application, strategy, ideas to be 631 00:48:15.775 --> 00:48:21.010 implemented somewhere beyond the cameras and feeds and group 632 00:48:21.010 --> 00:48:27.170 chats. I wonder the degree to which artificial intelligence is 633 00:48:27.170 --> 00:48:32.210 not a tool of this administration, but a crutch for 634 00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:37.625 a group of people who otherwise don't really know how to do much 635 00:48:37.625 --> 00:48:43.785 of anything, really, except push ups and lie. Perhaps it would 636 00:48:43.785 --> 00:48:44.745 not be easy. 637 00:48:44.745 --> 00:48:48.585 Perhaps no one really wants to do it. But what happens when you 638 00:48:48.585 --> 00:48:54.870 find a way to take away that crutch? Would they not stumble? 639 00:51:03.975 --> 00:51:07.335 That is the show we have for you this week. 640 00:51:07.495 --> 00:51:11.975 We'll be back here in the main feed on October 22. This show 641 00:51:11.975 --> 00:51:15.870 simply would not exist without the member community that we 642 00:51:15.870 --> 00:51:20.110 have. And for that, I have to say, thank you. Thank you. 643 00:51:20.270 --> 00:51:25.070 Thank you. We are unimaginably fortunate to have such a 644 00:51:25.070 --> 00:51:28.525 supportive and incredible community of members. And it's 645 00:51:28.525 --> 00:51:31.645 honestly because of you that we are able to do what we do. If 646 00:51:31.645 --> 00:51:35.325 you'd like to become a NeverPo's member for as little as $4 a 647 00:51:35.325 --> 00:51:40.040 month, you can do so at neverpo.st. And if that's a bit 648 00:51:40.040 --> 00:51:43.640 too much to manage in the choppy waters of modern life, you can 649 00:51:43.640 --> 00:51:48.600 also tip us a one time any dollar amount, which I will 650 00:51:48.600 --> 00:51:53.855 personally promise to spend on retiling the bathroom of the 651 00:51:53.855 --> 00:51:55.935 Gothic castle in which I reside. 652 00:51:57.615 --> 00:52:01.375 Never post producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton Hey, 653 00:52:01.375 --> 00:52:04.950 that's me and the mysterious doctor first name, last name. 654 00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:09.030 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is 655 00:52:09.030 --> 00:52:15.350 Jason Oberholzer. And the show's host is Mike Rugnetta. The good 656 00:52:15.350 --> 00:52:19.015 news is that things will go back to the way they were, which is 657 00:52:19.015 --> 00:52:20.295 also the bad news. 658 00:52:20.775 --> 00:52:25.015 Meanwhile, I cut an onion and it's onions all the way down. 659 00:52:25.415 --> 00:52:29.300 And that's a fine reason to cry at the sink on a Monday after 660 00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:34.260 the empire congratulates itself on persisting again. No. Thank 661 00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:35.620 you. I'm stuffed. 662 00:52:35.780 --> 00:52:38.820 I couldn't possibly have more hope. I haven't finished 663 00:52:38.820 --> 00:52:43.795 mourning the last tyrant yet. I haven't said enough goodbyes to, 664 00:52:43.955 --> 00:52:49.555 oh, what was her name and hers? How many wheeze did they cut out 665 00:52:49.555 --> 00:52:54.595 of me? And whose country was I standing on the last time we 666 00:52:54.595 --> 00:52:54.995 survived? 667 00:52:56.550 --> 00:53:00.870 That's an excerpt from Celebrate Good Times by Frannie Choi. 668 00:53:01.910 --> 00:53:05.670 Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and is 669 00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:07.830 distributed by Radiotopia.