WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.840 --> 00:00:10.400 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post. This 2 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.840 is a mailbag episode. It's the one for, I don't know, spring 3 00:00:13.840 --> 00:00:15.775 twenty twenty five? How's that sound? 4 00:00:15.775 --> 00:00:17.775 Sounds beautiful. Spring has sprung. 5 00:00:17.775 --> 00:00:18.735 Yeah. Spring is here. 6 00:00:18.735 --> 00:00:21.935 Okay. Great. If you are new here, a mailbag 7 00:00:21.935 --> 00:00:24.975 episode is where we respond to listener emails, comments, 8 00:00:24.975 --> 00:00:29.380 voicemails, and voice messages about our segments. Do you want 9 00:00:29.380 --> 00:00:32.820 to get in touch with us and tell us your thoughts about our 10 00:00:32.820 --> 00:00:35.620 thoughts? We want to hear your thoughts on our thoughts. 11 00:00:36.260 --> 00:00:38.340 All the ways that can get ahold of us are in the show notes. You 12 00:00:38.340 --> 00:00:40.420 can drop us a line. I'm your host, Mike Rugnetta. Joining me 13 00:00:40.420 --> 00:00:46.265 today in order of how uproarious I assume their go to karaoke 14 00:00:46.265 --> 00:00:52.265 song is ascending. Hans Buto, never post senior producer. 15 00:00:52.265 --> 00:00:54.585 You've nailed it. Can I tell you something? 16 00:00:54.585 --> 00:00:54.905 Yeah. 17 00:00:54.905 --> 00:00:55.065 Sure. 18 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:59.710 I've never done karaoke, so I don't have Wow. I 19 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:01.390 don't have a karaoke song. 20 00:01:01.550 --> 00:01:03.950 The maximum on uproarious. 21 00:01:03.950 --> 00:01:06.750 Exactly. Oh my god. First runs. Of the gate. 22 00:01:07.765 --> 00:01:10.565 Jason Oberholzer, Never Post executive producer. 23 00:01:11.525 --> 00:01:13.205 The middle's a good spot for me because it 24 00:01:13.205 --> 00:01:17.845 really depends on how my cover of D'Angelo's Untitled is going 25 00:01:17.845 --> 00:01:18.485 to go over. 26 00:01:22.630 --> 00:01:24.390 I think we should stop the recording because I 27 00:01:24.390 --> 00:01:25.510 just wanna think about that 28 00:01:25.510 --> 00:01:29.030 for a while. Swings wildly depending on the 29 00:01:29.030 --> 00:01:29.430 room. 30 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:31.830 Yeah. Right. Georgia Hampton, never post 31 00:01:31.830 --> 00:01:32.470 producer. 32 00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:38.475 Yes. Let me be clear about something. I am a 33 00:01:38.635 --> 00:01:42.315 performer first and a podcaster second. 34 00:01:42.395 --> 00:01:43.595 That's what that is. 35 00:01:44.395 --> 00:01:47.435 And my performance of I'm With You by 36 00:01:47.435 --> 00:01:53.560 Avril Lavigne. Oh. We're talking I fall to my knees. I'm crying. 37 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:55.320 The whole room is crying. 38 00:01:55.320 --> 00:01:56.760 It's very emotional. 39 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:58.440 I believe it. Now quickly, do you believe 40 00:01:58.440 --> 00:01:59.800 Avril is still with us? 41 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:03.160 No comment. Okay. I think I think we need 42 00:02:03.160 --> 00:02:05.000 more more intel first. 43 00:02:05.345 --> 00:02:07.025 Very smart. It's one of those things, know, you 44 00:02:07.025 --> 00:02:08.225 gotta do your own research. 45 00:02:09.105 --> 00:02:10.545 So true. 46 00:02:10.545 --> 00:02:12.305 Our perennial question, where do you fit into 47 00:02:12.305 --> 00:02:13.425 this Mike Rugnetta? 48 00:02:13.505 --> 00:02:16.865 I think that I am probably in the mid mid low. My 49 00:02:16.865 --> 00:02:20.500 go to is Johnny Cash. Oh. I can do a ring of fire, which I like 50 00:02:20.500 --> 00:02:22.820 because everybody knows the words too. Yeah. 51 00:02:23.540 --> 00:02:26.100 It's, you know, it can be uproarious, but there's an upper 52 00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:29.220 limit to how uproarious I think ring of fire can be. Fair. 53 00:02:29.220 --> 00:02:31.235 Fair enough. Yeah. I've had people come up to 54 00:02:31.235 --> 00:02:34.035 me after a karaoke performance and shake my hand. 55 00:02:36.195 --> 00:02:37.555 That's what I would have wanted. 56 00:02:37.555 --> 00:02:40.035 Is that is that good? 57 00:02:40.595 --> 00:02:42.915 I take it as good. That was after a 58 00:02:42.915 --> 00:02:45.315 performance of Lips of an Angel though by Hinder. 59 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:48.780 Oh, wow. Okay. So how 60 00:02:49.100 --> 00:02:51.980 This is now. We're gonna abandon my bag. 61 00:02:51.980 --> 00:02:54.940 Actually, this is now just a karaoke roundtable in which Hans 62 00:02:54.940 --> 00:02:56.380 is unable to participate. 63 00:02:57.100 --> 00:02:59.180 Hans, you can just you can just log off if 64 00:02:59.180 --> 00:02:59.580 you'd like. 65 00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:03.565 Georgia, are you a singer? Like, do you can you 66 00:03:03.565 --> 00:03:04.125 sing? 67 00:03:04.365 --> 00:03:06.765 I think I'm fine. I'm not like I'm not one 68 00:03:06.765 --> 00:03:09.565 of those people who's gonna show up to karaoke early and be like, 69 00:03:09.565 --> 00:03:09.725 me 70 00:03:09.725 --> 00:03:12.445 me me me me. Like Do those people exist? 71 00:03:12.710 --> 00:03:15.270 Oh, they super exist. At bar karaoke? 72 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:16.070 Oh, yes. Absolutely. 73 00:03:17.110 --> 00:03:19.830 You hear the first few notes of At Last by 74 00:03:19.830 --> 00:03:21.510 Etta James, you're like, oh, Jesus Christ. 75 00:03:21.510 --> 00:03:23.110 Yeah. They're taking this seriously. 76 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:25.750 You there are other rooms for you to do that. 77 00:03:25.750 --> 00:03:28.070 There's other places. But I mean, I did, like, 78 00:03:28.695 --> 00:03:33.095 I did musical theater in, like, middle school. So I was never, 79 00:03:33.175 --> 00:03:36.295 you know Mhmm. I can't read music. I never took voice 80 00:03:36.295 --> 00:03:39.175 lessons, but I can belt when it is called for. 81 00:03:39.175 --> 00:03:41.280 Got it. This is good intel. Let's talk about 82 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:42.400 some listener stuff. 83 00:03:43.600 --> 00:03:45.040 It's a beautiful transition. 84 00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:47.920 Oh, that god. Seamless. This 85 00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:50.880 mailbag is also of note because it is our 86 00:03:50.880 --> 00:03:56.160 first one as a member of Radiotopia. And we got some mail 87 00:03:56.485 --> 00:03:59.845 as requested from our longtime listeners about what it means 88 00:03:59.845 --> 00:04:02.965 that we are a part of Radiotopia. And one in 89 00:04:02.965 --> 00:04:05.445 particular I thought it'd be interesting for us all to weigh 90 00:04:05.445 --> 00:04:10.700 in on came from Malcolm Toll. Malcolm says, I write now about 91 00:04:10.700 --> 00:04:14.380 one concern I have about podcast ad networks. It unnerves me to 92 00:04:14.380 --> 00:04:16.460 hear the hosts read out ads. 93 00:04:16.700 --> 00:04:19.820 Paragons like The Verge have a deliberate firewall between ads 94 00:04:19.820 --> 00:04:22.700 in the newsroom. It prevents undue financial influence and 95 00:04:22.700 --> 00:04:26.035 bias from impacting reporting. Malcolm provides an example of 96 00:04:26.035 --> 00:04:28.835 this that he thought was particularly odious, says that 97 00:04:28.835 --> 00:04:31.475 he understands the sort of pressures that places can be 98 00:04:31.475 --> 00:04:34.915 under when they are parts of organizations. Goes on to say, 99 00:04:34.915 --> 00:04:37.315 could be wrong. I believe the only ads I've ever heard on the 100 00:04:37.315 --> 00:04:38.675 member feed are for the show itself. 101 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:42.400 That's sensible. But if the producers are going to read ads 102 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:45.280 for other companies, I'd like to see a discussion about the 103 00:04:45.280 --> 00:04:48.240 practice in the audio industry. And that's what you're gonna 104 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.240 get, Malcolm, right now. 105 00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:52.080 Let's go. Let's go. 106 00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:54.000 I mean, I think this is something that we could 107 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.105 probably talk about, maybe not in a segment, but in something 108 00:04:58.105 --> 00:05:01.465 else that we release and record. Just our experience with, you 109 00:05:01.465 --> 00:05:04.425 know, not just to this show, but other shows that we've worked on 110 00:05:04.425 --> 00:05:07.065 and been involved in about, like, how advertising works and 111 00:05:07.065 --> 00:05:10.990 what those pressures are, at least from my perspective as the 112 00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:14.190 nominal host of the show who, you know, when they come to us 113 00:05:14.190 --> 00:05:17.150 and they're like, okay. This ad has to be a host read. My name 114 00:05:17.150 --> 00:05:19.550 is gonna be at the top of the list. I also don't like it. 115 00:05:21.150 --> 00:05:23.645 I just wanna be right really upfront about that. But I think 116 00:05:23.645 --> 00:05:27.165 we have a broad remit in our relationship to say no to ads 117 00:05:27.165 --> 00:05:30.125 just in general. So if we are brought ads for things that we 118 00:05:30.125 --> 00:05:33.005 don't like, then we can say, oh, no. We don't wanna advertise 119 00:05:33.005 --> 00:05:37.005 that. We also have broad sort of like permission to it's like 120 00:05:37.005 --> 00:05:39.490 when they're like, we want you to read this ad and we want you 121 00:05:39.490 --> 00:05:43.330 to include some of your personal experience with this product. 122 00:05:43.410 --> 00:05:47.010 We get to say, I don't have any. And then, you know, just read 123 00:05:47.010 --> 00:05:51.755 the ad. And I think that over time, we're gonna figure out how 124 00:05:51.755 --> 00:05:54.075 that works, and we're probably gonna do some stuff that's 125 00:05:54.075 --> 00:05:55.595 uncomfortable along the way. 126 00:05:55.755 --> 00:05:57.355 Yeah. That seems fair. I think the other 127 00:05:57.355 --> 00:06:01.595 thing that's important to point out here is that Radio Topia has 128 00:06:01.595 --> 00:06:05.100 handled this very collaboratively Yeah. Yeah. And 129 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:08.780 sent us a huge list of things to sign no on essentially. 130 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:09.900 Yeah. Where we were able 131 00:06:09.900 --> 00:06:11.740 to point out all the places that we might 132 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:14.700 have some sort of conflict of interest, things that we are 133 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:17.855 going to have to cover, things that are on our beat, things 134 00:06:17.855 --> 00:06:21.375 that we just don't like. And we have a huge list of those we 135 00:06:21.375 --> 00:06:23.295 sent over, and they said thanks, and they're not gonna send us 136 00:06:23.295 --> 00:06:23.855 those things. 137 00:06:23.855 --> 00:06:25.615 It's great. I mean, this is maybe one of the 138 00:06:25.615 --> 00:06:27.615 things we could talk about if we ever explain this at length, but 139 00:06:27.615 --> 00:06:31.020 it's like a spreadsheet because it's all standardized. So every 140 00:06:31.020 --> 00:06:36.060 ad has to slot into a basically like type, like a tag type. 141 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:36.700 Category. 142 00:06:36.700 --> 00:06:39.100 Category. Yeah. That's that's the word. Uh-huh. 143 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:42.540 And, yeah, we just went through and we're like, no supplements. 144 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:45.100 Just no. Just a blanket. No supplements. No. Thank you. 145 00:06:45.725 --> 00:06:49.085 Yeah. And, yeah, they were like, cool. Sounds good. You know? And 146 00:06:49.085 --> 00:06:52.205 then probably dozens of other things that we said no to. 147 00:06:52.285 --> 00:06:54.525 Oh, I mean, this list, like, imagine a long 148 00:06:54.525 --> 00:06:59.485 list and then times it by, like, 800 of how specific you can get 149 00:06:59.485 --> 00:07:01.005 about what kind of ads you don't want. 150 00:07:01.730 --> 00:07:04.290 Think about a list. Now think about a bigger 151 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:05.810 list than the list you're thinking of. 152 00:07:05.810 --> 00:07:08.690 This list is so unimaginably big. But 153 00:07:09.410 --> 00:07:10.850 I think, you know, we are trying to be 154 00:07:10.850 --> 00:07:14.370 thoughtful about it, and we would hope that when we miss, 155 00:07:14.370 --> 00:07:17.415 you guys will tell us. And, you know, the list of things that we 156 00:07:17.415 --> 00:07:20.295 don't wanna read ads for, like financial services and health 157 00:07:20.295 --> 00:07:23.735 insurance Yeah. And just all the stuff that make you feel just 158 00:07:23.735 --> 00:07:24.375 generally. 159 00:07:25.415 --> 00:07:27.335 The other response we saw a few times to 160 00:07:27.335 --> 00:07:30.740 our Radiotopia announcement was fear on the part of the 161 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:34.580 listeners that we would get rid of what has been described many 162 00:07:34.580 --> 00:07:38.420 different things, many different ways, the little sonic eye dent 163 00:07:38.420 --> 00:07:42.020 at the end of every episode. Oh. You know the sound. I'll put it 164 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:42.660 crack this. 165 00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:45.665 Right here. What would you all call I 166 00:07:46.465 --> 00:07:48.465 think of it as the egg crack in my brain. 167 00:07:48.465 --> 00:07:50.785 That's what it is. Yes. I completely agree 168 00:07:50.785 --> 00:07:51.025 with that. 169 00:07:51.025 --> 00:07:51.825 Oh, that's interesting. I I 170 00:07:51.825 --> 00:07:52.945 think of it as the snap. 171 00:07:52.945 --> 00:07:55.425 Yeah. It is it is, I think, mostly described 172 00:07:55.425 --> 00:07:59.270 as the egg crack and genuine fear from the listeners that the 173 00:07:59.270 --> 00:08:02.630 egg crack would go away to make room for the dulcet tones of 174 00:08:02.630 --> 00:08:06.230 Radiotopia. Fear not, they are all there. We are cracking eggs 175 00:08:06.230 --> 00:08:10.815 and singing opera at the end of every show. I always think of 176 00:08:10.815 --> 00:08:14.975 that sound as like pulling out a quarter inch plug. 177 00:08:16.175 --> 00:08:17.535 That's like a little wet. 178 00:08:17.535 --> 00:08:20.015 Okay. I was gonna say. From an uncooked hamburger 179 00:08:20.015 --> 00:08:20.895 patty? Yeah. Like 180 00:08:21.375 --> 00:08:22.655 oh my god. Anyway, 181 00:08:24.335 --> 00:08:25.375 it's not going anywhere. 182 00:08:26.940 --> 00:08:29.340 Jason, you also got a bunch of outreach from 183 00:08:29.340 --> 00:08:33.020 folks who wanted to let you know that there are in fact podcasts 184 00:08:33.020 --> 00:08:35.420 of music, and how dare you not know about them? 185 00:08:36.060 --> 00:08:38.860 Yes. People wanted to let me know that I was 186 00:08:38.860 --> 00:08:44.855 wrong. Can you imagine this? No. This is very helpful. 187 00:08:44.855 --> 00:08:46.935 This is exactly what I asked for. I wanted people to send me 188 00:08:46.935 --> 00:08:50.615 things that were podcasts that they thought amounted to a 189 00:08:50.615 --> 00:08:55.250 musical expression of the form. What if a podcast was music? 190 00:08:55.650 --> 00:08:58.690 What if music arrived as if it were a podcast? And we're gonna 191 00:08:58.690 --> 00:09:01.250 list off some of the things I thought were more interesting 192 00:09:01.250 --> 00:09:02.050 that got sent in. 193 00:09:02.050 --> 00:09:04.770 So thank you, everybody. One of the ones that seemed more 194 00:09:04.770 --> 00:09:10.895 interesting was Ultima Thule, an Australian radio show that seems 195 00:09:10.895 --> 00:09:14.655 to have gone dormant at the end of twenty twenty four. So it 196 00:09:14.655 --> 00:09:16.735 seems like we just missed the window on that, but let me know 197 00:09:16.735 --> 00:09:19.295 if I'm wrong about that since you all love to let me know when 198 00:09:19.295 --> 00:09:22.830 I'm wrong about things. And some other examples people sent in 199 00:09:22.830 --> 00:09:27.310 were real synthetic audio, a state of trance, song of the day 200 00:09:27.310 --> 00:09:31.150 from the current, morning becomes eclectic. Turns out 201 00:09:31.150 --> 00:09:34.775 there's just a lot of stuff out there that people believe to be 202 00:09:34.855 --> 00:09:37.255 music that arrives via podcast. 203 00:09:38.055 --> 00:09:40.615 I actually got a text, Jason, from my 204 00:09:40.615 --> 00:09:43.495 brother-in-law, Steven from Brooklyn. Hello, Steven. He's a 205 00:09:43.495 --> 00:09:46.615 listener and a fan who feels bad that he doesn't write in and 206 00:09:46.615 --> 00:09:49.550 only text me individually. So now I'm forcing him into the 207 00:09:49.550 --> 00:09:51.070 show. That's good. 208 00:09:51.070 --> 00:09:52.510 That's good. Yeah. You should 209 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:54.510 Yeah. Believe in bullying on the show. 210 00:09:54.510 --> 00:09:58.750 Let's let's bully our families. So he suggested a 211 00:09:58.750 --> 00:10:01.950 couple of VivaRONT Radio by Jeremy Olander and Above and 212 00:10:01.950 --> 00:10:05.205 Beyond puts out something called group therapy. He said there 213 00:10:05.205 --> 00:10:08.885 were a lot of these that he has listened to over the years 214 00:10:08.885 --> 00:10:10.885 because he listens while he works. He listens to ambient 215 00:10:10.885 --> 00:10:11.765 music while he works. 216 00:10:11.765 --> 00:10:12.245 Okay. 217 00:10:12.645 --> 00:10:15.125 And he pointed me interestingly, what I thought 218 00:10:15.125 --> 00:10:19.240 was interesting, to the final episode of a podcast called 219 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:22.920 Anjuna Deep Edition. And so they publish this in May 2022, and 220 00:10:22.920 --> 00:10:26.120 they open it by explaining a bit about why they're not doing 221 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:27.320 podcasts anymore. 222 00:10:27.880 --> 00:10:30.035 As you might have realized, the weekly Anjuna Deep 223 00:10:30.035 --> 00:10:32.515 Edition mixes haven't been appearing in your podcast feed 224 00:10:32.515 --> 00:10:36.595 since episode 400 a few weeks ago. Sadly, this isn't a glitch 225 00:10:36.595 --> 00:10:39.635 in your app, and we are in fact closing down the podcast feed. 226 00:10:40.275 --> 00:10:42.675 When we first launched the Deep Edition and our other radio 227 00:10:42.675 --> 00:10:45.210 shows, there were very few options for distributing those 228 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:48.490 kind of mixes. And so like many other labels and artists, we 229 00:10:48.490 --> 00:10:51.690 turned to podcasts. Today, there are a whole host of music 230 00:10:51.690 --> 00:10:54.970 specific platforms that host our mix content, including YouTube, 231 00:10:54.970 --> 00:10:57.450 SoundCloud, and Mixcloud, where you can find the Angunity 232 00:10:57.450 --> 00:11:00.045 petition, along with Apple Music, where you can find our 233 00:11:00.045 --> 00:11:03.165 new Anguno Mix series, and on Spotify, where we've got various 234 00:11:03.165 --> 00:11:05.485 other mixes along with all of our new releases. 235 00:11:05.965 --> 00:11:08.285 These platforms all cater for music in a way that the podcast 236 00:11:08.285 --> 00:11:11.405 feed sadly doesn't, in that the musicians and creators behind 237 00:11:11.405 --> 00:11:14.580 the mixes can receive royalties for their music being played. So 238 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:15.780 thank you so much for listening. 239 00:11:15.780 --> 00:11:19.140 Suck. I mean, hard to argue. Do you guys know 240 00:11:19.140 --> 00:11:20.420 Camp? Mm-mm. No. 241 00:11:20.900 --> 00:11:24.500 It's like a French, like, artist residency for electronic 242 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:28.580 musicians, and they have a radio show sort of radio station, 243 00:11:28.580 --> 00:11:31.195 really just a website that collects mixes that people do. 244 00:11:31.275 --> 00:11:34.075 And it's all hosted on Mixcloud, which I've never encountered 245 00:11:34.075 --> 00:11:37.355 before, you know, like, a couple weeks ago when I found out about 246 00:11:37.355 --> 00:11:41.595 this. Mixcloud rules. Okay. So just hearing this now. 247 00:11:41.595 --> 00:11:43.595 It's like this I'm sure this is frequency illusion. You know 248 00:11:43.595 --> 00:11:46.070 what I mean? Like, suddenly, this is everywhere, but I'm sure 249 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:48.790 I just never encountered it before. But yeah. I mean, it's 250 00:11:48.790 --> 00:11:49.270 compelling. 251 00:11:49.270 --> 00:11:50.550 It's a compelling reason. 252 00:11:50.710 --> 00:11:52.390 Yeah. It makes some sense. 253 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:54.390 One email I wanted to spend a little bit of 254 00:11:54.390 --> 00:11:59.255 time on was one from Jam, who suggested that they're a casual 255 00:11:59.255 --> 00:12:01.415 music listener, but the first thing that jumped to mind were 256 00:12:01.415 --> 00:12:06.375 DJ sets and playlists, such as Isaac Varzim's Groovy sets, 257 00:12:06.535 --> 00:12:09.655 Humano Studios guest sets, Boiler Room sets, made me want 258 00:12:09.655 --> 00:12:13.900 to ask the question in the other direction. Rather than what 259 00:12:13.900 --> 00:12:19.500 podcast might be music, what music might actually be a 260 00:12:19.500 --> 00:12:22.380 podcast and I nominate DJ sets. 261 00:12:22.380 --> 00:12:28.815 Interesting. Yeah. Okay. In a way, opera. 262 00:12:29.695 --> 00:12:32.015 You're right. The original podcast is 263 00:12:32.015 --> 00:12:33.935 talk people talking about their problems. 264 00:12:33.935 --> 00:12:35.935 Yeah. Sorry. The second podcast. First, had 265 00:12:35.935 --> 00:12:38.175 cereal, then we had opera. 266 00:12:38.175 --> 00:12:40.815 Traditional Italian opera. 267 00:12:41.150 --> 00:12:43.390 That's actually the perfect answer. Oh, 268 00:12:43.390 --> 00:12:44.110 my god. 269 00:12:44.670 --> 00:12:49.790 So up next, in response to an email from Thales 270 00:12:49.790 --> 00:12:53.390 Baretto in our last mailbag regarding our segment from last 271 00:12:53.390 --> 00:12:57.325 year's live show at xoxo, which is about TikTok shop. We 272 00:12:57.325 --> 00:13:00.365 attempted to identify which online business might be the 273 00:13:00.365 --> 00:13:05.885 most parasitic. And in Talis's words, the question was, which 274 00:13:05.885 --> 00:13:09.965 online business is able to profit while being the least it 275 00:13:09.965 --> 00:13:16.800 can be? Jason Mehmel writes in with his contender, which is 276 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.760 PayPal. Jason writes, I'm sure there was some level of work to 277 00:13:21.760 --> 00:13:24.160 make initial bank connections and such. 278 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.745 But at this point, it's just a middle stop between whatever 279 00:13:27.745 --> 00:13:30.705 banks are involved in the transaction. Maybe that initial 280 00:13:30.705 --> 00:13:34.305 work deserves credit, but it's devolved into being just a 281 00:13:34.305 --> 00:13:37.665 membrane skimming from the transactions moving through it. 282 00:13:37.745 --> 00:13:42.040 I'd love to know if there are better methods now. I feel like 283 00:13:42.040 --> 00:13:46.440 PayPal is an an entity that seems vaguely evil to me, but I 284 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.040 know so little about. 285 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:49.720 PayPal, don't listen. PayPal, if you're 286 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:53.995 listening, just just fast forward. PayPal sucks. And 287 00:13:53.995 --> 00:13:54.635 PayPal 288 00:13:54.475 --> 00:13:55.835 All my homies hate PayPal. 289 00:13:56.155 --> 00:13:59.195 Can only exist because payment infrastructure 290 00:13:59.195 --> 00:14:03.435 in The United States is so atrophied and at under the 291 00:14:03.435 --> 00:14:06.075 control of, like, corporate interests and doesn't actually 292 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:08.880 benefit people. Whenever you, like, talk to someone who 293 00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:10.640 doesn't live in The United States about just, like, sending 294 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:12.720 small bits of money back and forth to your friends, they're 295 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.800 like, just use your bank. And our answer is, oh, you can't. 296 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.440 Well, yeah. We got PayPal, a third service that is like the 297 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:22.160 money mafia. 298 00:14:22.775 --> 00:14:25.495 It really feels like that. Like, as someone I 299 00:14:25.495 --> 00:14:28.055 don't feel like I interface that much with PayPal. I don't know 300 00:14:28.055 --> 00:14:31.975 why that is. Maybe just the transactions I'm doing. But 301 00:14:31.975 --> 00:14:34.855 usually, in my experience, the methods that are used are like 302 00:14:34.855 --> 00:14:37.670 Venmo or Zelle. 303 00:14:38.390 --> 00:14:42.150 PayPal kinda doesn't exist in my life. So I I sort of defer to to 304 00:14:42.150 --> 00:14:42.790 you guys. 305 00:14:43.190 --> 00:14:45.590 Well, Venmo is just is owned by PayPal. So it's 306 00:14:45.590 --> 00:14:49.110 just it's just another scan on it. It's just a yeah. It's just 307 00:14:49.110 --> 00:14:50.710 one level on top of PayPal. 308 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:53.285 Also, isn't there just they have like a 309 00:14:53.285 --> 00:14:56.645 really easy backdoor to get into or something? I feel like I've 310 00:14:56.645 --> 00:14:59.845 heard so many stories of people having like, their identity 311 00:14:59.845 --> 00:15:03.445 stolen through PayPal, or like their bank information stolen 312 00:15:03.445 --> 00:15:06.485 through PayPal. Something horrible happening. The main 313 00:15:06.485 --> 00:15:06.805 thing that 314 00:15:06.805 --> 00:15:10.770 they do is they they have an even more sensitive 315 00:15:10.770 --> 00:15:14.370 tripwire than, say, Visa does as far as just saying, well, you 316 00:15:14.370 --> 00:15:18.130 can't do that anymore. And that they are well known for if they 317 00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:21.090 don't like something that you're doing or just mildly suspicious 318 00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:23.330 of you, just shutting your account down and taking all your 319 00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:25.675 money, which, of course, is in their interest 320 00:15:25.675 --> 00:15:28.315 to So what I'm hearing is maybe this is 321 00:15:28.315 --> 00:15:31.275 actually exactly the most parasitic. It's pretty bad. 322 00:15:31.275 --> 00:15:33.195 Maybe we just got it. Like, maybe this is it. 323 00:15:33.195 --> 00:15:34.635 Yeah. Okay. PayPal, you can start listening 324 00:15:34.635 --> 00:15:37.195 again. And that's why I love PayPal. And that's why the 325 00:15:37.195 --> 00:15:38.715 sponsor, PayPal. 326 00:15:39.570 --> 00:15:42.370 It's it's just it's extremely convenient. And 327 00:15:42.530 --> 00:15:45.170 honestly, their trust and safety team, I feel like they go out of 328 00:15:45.170 --> 00:15:47.730 their way Above and beyond. Sure. Yeah. To make sure that 329 00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:49.970 everybody who uses the service, like, really knows what they're 330 00:15:49.970 --> 00:15:50.130 doing. 331 00:15:50.130 --> 00:15:51.810 So to rewind to the beginning of this 332 00:15:51.810 --> 00:15:56.065 mailbag, we're gonna get no advertisers. Okay. 333 00:15:58.625 --> 00:16:02.545 Good news. In our last mailbag, Toby called in, 334 00:16:03.025 --> 00:16:07.200 and the voicemail got cut off. And then Toby called in again. 335 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:07.840 Hell, yeah. 336 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:08.800 Yes, Toby. 337 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.680 Hey, Never Post. I'm so sorry about whatever happened. I 338 00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:14.160 think what I was getting at is my social media algorithm in 339 00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:17.920 terms of specifically ads has changed significantly since I, 340 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:20.535 like, medically transitioned. And so basically what happened 341 00:16:20.535 --> 00:16:24.615 is I started noticing I was getting a lot more gun oriented 342 00:16:24.615 --> 00:16:28.695 things, a lot more fitness. I was getting more ads for shitty 343 00:16:28.695 --> 00:16:29.575 supplements. 344 00:16:29.575 --> 00:16:35.095 And I was just curious about, like, the sort of gender 345 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.680 assigned at social media algorithm idea. 346 00:16:36.760 --> 00:16:37.560 What do you all think? 347 00:16:37.560 --> 00:16:38.520 Is this, like, a legitimate 348 00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:42.440 thing in terms of, like, your ads predicting sort of, like, 349 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:43.480 your gender? 350 00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:46.280 So I would like to just remind everyone that we 351 00:16:46.280 --> 00:16:47.080 accept pitches. 352 00:16:47.285 --> 00:16:49.125 Yes. Toby. 353 00:16:49.125 --> 00:16:52.245 And that we pay people to make segments and that 354 00:16:52.245 --> 00:16:53.765 this is interesting. 355 00:16:53.765 --> 00:16:55.685 Fascinating. So interesting. 356 00:16:55.845 --> 00:16:58.005 Toby, call us back again. 357 00:17:00.500 --> 00:17:02.260 Just call Hans. Just call Hans. 358 00:17:02.260 --> 00:17:02.820 Just give me a 359 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:03.300 raise time. 360 00:17:03.300 --> 00:17:08.660 Hans' phone number is Hi. Next up, in 361 00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:11.780 response to our segment about section two thirty with Mike 362 00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:14.740 Masnik, my pal Guy, and Hans' pal Guy 363 00:17:14.955 --> 00:17:15.675 Oh, Guy. 364 00:17:15.675 --> 00:17:16.475 Called in. 365 00:17:16.875 --> 00:17:21.995 Section two thirty is a US law. Laws have jurisdiction, and 366 00:17:21.995 --> 00:17:24.795 I wondered how section two thirty sort of related to the 367 00:17:24.795 --> 00:17:30.060 Internet and the the global entity. And I know you guys have 368 00:17:30.060 --> 00:17:33.020 talked about, you know, this in other shows about, you know, 369 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:36.540 it's hard to know the Internet from other perspectives other 370 00:17:36.540 --> 00:17:40.540 than The US. But I wondered if, you know, if there was anything 371 00:17:40.540 --> 00:17:44.355 to say about if section two thirty does go away, how does 372 00:17:44.355 --> 00:17:47.475 that impact the Internet in other places? Do other countries 373 00:17:47.475 --> 00:17:48.115 follow it? 374 00:17:48.115 --> 00:17:53.715 That would that make The US an outlier, or would then they join 375 00:17:53.715 --> 00:17:57.875 more countries that also don't have anything like section two 376 00:17:57.875 --> 00:17:58.195 thirty? 377 00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:02.210 So Guy yes. Guy lives in Canada. Mike, I have a 378 00:18:02.210 --> 00:18:05.170 question for you. I I wanna predict your answer just a 379 00:18:05.170 --> 00:18:08.050 little bit and actually see if I'm at all right about this. 380 00:18:08.050 --> 00:18:08.530 Alright. 381 00:18:08.530 --> 00:18:11.570 That the torch is being passed. Two thirty does 382 00:18:11.570 --> 00:18:16.355 affect it at the moment because so many places have to deal 383 00:18:16.355 --> 00:18:20.595 with, do business in, and be subject to American laws. 384 00:18:20.595 --> 00:18:25.555 However, that source of power has been shifting over the last 385 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:31.840 ten years maybe to the European Union who is coming and being 386 00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:35.280 much more strict with all sorts of places that The US is 387 00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:38.080 currently choosing not to be strict at all, especially with 388 00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:40.320 the demise of net neutrality. Like, the European Union is the 389 00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:42.755 only one who is actually doing this and are shaping 390 00:18:42.755 --> 00:18:43.795 the Internet for the rest of us. 391 00:18:43.795 --> 00:18:44.915 Am I sort of right? 392 00:18:44.915 --> 00:18:46.115 So, I mean, the important thing to remember 393 00:18:46.115 --> 00:18:48.595 about net neutrality is that that is not a content level 394 00:18:48.595 --> 00:18:52.915 decision. Right? That is or or it is content level insofar as 395 00:18:52.915 --> 00:18:55.555 its content that goes through infrastructure, which the EU is 396 00:18:55.555 --> 00:18:59.560 trying to regulate both both of those things. But the 397 00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:01.800 infrastructure is like a completely different thing. 398 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:01.960 Right? 399 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.560 The cables are where the cables are, but the information is 400 00:19:05.560 --> 00:19:09.320 everywhere. So I think there is a way to think about this where 401 00:19:09.320 --> 00:19:13.165 we get two Internets, essentially, and we see a larger 402 00:19:13.165 --> 00:19:15.405 version of what already exists with, say, the right to be 403 00:19:15.405 --> 00:19:19.885 forgotten, where every year I think it's every year. The EU 404 00:19:20.045 --> 00:19:25.565 gets, like, 50,000,000 requests for results on Google to be 405 00:19:26.340 --> 00:19:32.180 removed or to be downranked, and Google adheres to or accepts, 406 00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:35.780 like, half of them. I think it is. But that only happens in the 407 00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:36.180 EU. 408 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:38.340 Right? There's no right to be forgotten in The United States. 409 00:19:38.340 --> 00:19:41.220 There's just the Internet works in two different ways in two 410 00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:44.735 different places. There's a chance that that happens. I 411 00:19:44.735 --> 00:19:46.495 think it's probably really unlikely. 412 00:19:47.135 --> 00:19:50.495 The, like, bigger thing to consider is that most of the 413 00:19:50.495 --> 00:19:53.215 largest Internet players right? And really, we're talking about, 414 00:19:53.215 --> 00:19:56.760 like, social media is really what is what is to be considered 415 00:19:56.760 --> 00:20:00.920 here. They're all US companies. They will have to abide by US 416 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:04.600 law. And so in their if section two thirty goes away, right, 417 00:20:04.600 --> 00:20:06.840 they have basically two choices. 418 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.225 They can moderate everything. They take the path of, like, 419 00:20:11.225 --> 00:20:12.985 we're gonna look at everything. We're gonna approve it before it 420 00:20:12.985 --> 00:20:15.625 all goes up, where everything's gonna get the green check mark. 421 00:20:15.625 --> 00:20:19.065 Everything's treated very, very equally that way. The things 422 00:20:19.065 --> 00:20:22.025 that I've seen written about this is that other countries, 423 00:20:22.105 --> 00:20:25.780 especially other authoritarian countries, look at that and they 424 00:20:25.780 --> 00:20:29.460 say, oh, so you are looking at every post. 425 00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:33.060 Great. When you come across posts that say Erdogan is bad, 426 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:35.940 could you take all those down? Like, you you're already doing 427 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:37.460 it. You're already looking at everything. Like, why don't you 428 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:38.420 just don't take it all down? 429 00:20:38.625 --> 00:20:42.865 What happens then? Do they agree? Do they stop offering 430 00:20:42.865 --> 00:20:44.705 their services in those countries because they don't 431 00:20:44.705 --> 00:20:47.345 wanna get involved in that situation? Do they offer a 432 00:20:47.345 --> 00:20:50.145 different version of the Internet in those countries? You 433 00:20:50.145 --> 00:20:52.385 sort of end up at the two Internets again. 434 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.120 The other outcome is they say, okay, two thirty goes away. 435 00:20:56.120 --> 00:20:58.200 Okay. We can't moderate anything. We don't moderate 436 00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.640 anything. We're not gonna look at anything. 437 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.440 That means the Internet, as Mike Masnik described it, becomes a 438 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:07.000 cesspit for everybody who engages with it. Until the EU 439 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.535 then says, well, you can't there are certain uses or posts. There 440 00:21:11.535 --> 00:21:14.815 are certain kinds of content that just cannot be seen here, 441 00:21:15.215 --> 00:21:20.975 and so fix it. Does that then mean, you know, there's now two 442 00:21:20.975 --> 00:21:23.695 versions of the Internet again? There's the one in The US that's 443 00:21:23.695 --> 00:21:26.190 not at all moderated, and there's the one in The EU that 444 00:21:26.190 --> 00:21:27.950 is moderated to their regulations. 445 00:21:28.030 --> 00:21:31.950 You know? There's so many things that have to happen before we 446 00:21:31.950 --> 00:21:36.510 know what happens, but those are the two sort of, like, branching 447 00:21:36.510 --> 00:21:40.505 paths that I've seen other people talk about as far as what 448 00:21:40.505 --> 00:21:43.145 is the rest of the world like if section two thirty goes away in 449 00:21:43.145 --> 00:21:44.025 The United States? 450 00:21:44.025 --> 00:21:45.785 Well, our most recent relevant example is 451 00:21:45.785 --> 00:21:51.705 GDPR, which is now fairly old. Yeah. But American companies 452 00:21:51.705 --> 00:21:55.305 ended up just by and large becoming GDPR compliant across 453 00:21:55.305 --> 00:21:59.740 the board because it's more of a hassle not to have been. So that 454 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:03.260 was EU taking the lead and everyone just opting into the 455 00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:04.860 ease of just following along. 456 00:22:04.860 --> 00:22:10.700 Yeah. Yeah. So I think the answer here is 457 00:22:12.385 --> 00:22:12.945 no. 458 00:22:15.185 --> 00:22:19.025 Up next, Jay wrote in about my conversation 459 00:22:19.025 --> 00:22:23.185 about having fun on the Internet with Kyle Chaeka. And Jay said, 460 00:22:23.820 --> 00:22:27.660 I gave some thought into the ways that I combat algorithmic 461 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:32.060 fun. And this is what I've come up with. And here's a fabulous 462 00:22:32.060 --> 00:22:36.460 list of options. Disable auto play or auto preview. 463 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:40.285 I always manually select the next thing. Yes. I do this too. 464 00:22:40.285 --> 00:22:45.085 It's amazing. Click on the subscriptions tab on YouTube. 465 00:22:45.165 --> 00:22:50.685 I also do this. Very smart. Whenever possible, sort only by 466 00:22:51.165 --> 00:22:53.325 chronology. Yep. Which interesting. 467 00:22:53.325 --> 00:22:57.310 I hadn't even thought of that. Whenever possible, use RSS in 468 00:22:57.310 --> 00:23:01.230 quote unquote quiet apps. Subscribe to newsletters when 469 00:23:01.230 --> 00:23:06.190 it's important to me, and RSS is unavailable. I often find cool 470 00:23:06.190 --> 00:23:11.295 stuff tag surfing on Mastodon, Tumblr, Bandcamp, maybe soon on 471 00:23:11.295 --> 00:23:15.775 Blue Sky. Whenever I go to the library weekly, which wow. 472 00:23:15.775 --> 00:23:21.455 Nice. Thank you. I will grab one comic, one jazz CD, and one 473 00:23:21.455 --> 00:23:22.735 movie I've never heard of. 474 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:24.620 And do them all at the same time, 475 00:23:24.620 --> 00:23:25.180 I assume? 476 00:23:25.180 --> 00:23:27.660 Multiple screens, full While 477 00:23:28.300 --> 00:23:30.380 watching a Subway Surfers video. 478 00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:35.020 That's a really beautiful practice. I really 479 00:23:35.020 --> 00:23:39.385 love this. And then finally, they say, anthologies. I enjoy 480 00:23:39.385 --> 00:23:43.305 buying things in bundles on itch.io. We're supporting 481 00:23:43.305 --> 00:23:46.505 anthologies on Kickstarter, and that's a fun way to discover new 482 00:23:46.505 --> 00:23:47.145 creators. 483 00:23:47.785 --> 00:23:49.385 This is a wonderful list. 484 00:23:49.385 --> 00:23:50.265 It's beautiful, Jasmine. It's 485 00:23:50.540 --> 00:23:52.460 Tag surfing on Bandcamp rules. I cannot 486 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.020 recommend it highly enough. I do it almost every day. 487 00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:58.380 I want more of these. Where else are people 488 00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:02.060 finding intentional interactions with their media and attention? 489 00:24:03.245 --> 00:24:06.285 And then Sam also called in with message 490 00:24:06.285 --> 00:24:07.325 about this segment. 491 00:24:07.965 --> 00:24:13.565 I have to say, I have gone back to using RSS feeds for 492 00:24:13.805 --> 00:24:20.680 pretty much all of my Internet consumption. And I actually spun 493 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:28.840 up my own RSS server on a web server that I have. And since 494 00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:35.655 then, I have been using that and it is so much better. Oh, I know 495 00:24:35.655 --> 00:24:39.175 exactly what's there. I want exactly what's there. 496 00:24:39.495 --> 00:24:44.455 And I don't have to deal with some algorithm getting in my 497 00:24:44.455 --> 00:24:46.150 way. And it's great. 498 00:24:46.230 --> 00:24:47.910 Mike, I want you to go first. 499 00:24:47.910 --> 00:24:51.590 Mike's Alright. Punching the air that rules so 500 00:24:51.590 --> 00:24:52.630 hard. Yes. 501 00:24:52.630 --> 00:24:55.830 All time. Mike, I see the floor to you. 502 00:24:55.830 --> 00:24:57.510 That's it. That's I mean, that's all I have to say 503 00:24:57.510 --> 00:25:03.175 is punching the air. Sam, that rules. I I fully I think I don't 504 00:25:03.175 --> 00:25:05.015 wanna call it a resurgence because it never really went 505 00:25:05.015 --> 00:25:09.095 anywhere, but the refocusing, let's say, on RSS has been a 506 00:25:09.095 --> 00:25:11.335 long time in the making, and I think it's only going to 507 00:25:11.335 --> 00:25:16.110 continue in focus as people realize what the current way of 508 00:25:16.110 --> 00:25:19.070 getting information has done to the information environment and 509 00:25:19.070 --> 00:25:23.630 to our brains. And we're gonna go back to calm, as the last 510 00:25:23.630 --> 00:25:28.910 comment said, quiet ways of getting information in organized 511 00:25:28.515 --> 00:25:31.955 streams in particular places and not having to just sort of, 512 00:25:31.955 --> 00:25:34.995 like, live underneath the waterfall. 513 00:25:35.635 --> 00:25:36.435 God. Yeah. 514 00:25:36.435 --> 00:25:38.595 It's real simple. It's real simple. 515 00:25:39.475 --> 00:25:41.155 One other email I wanted to take a look at 516 00:25:41.155 --> 00:25:45.240 here for your sake, Georgia, The payment about this piece 517 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:50.200 involves pretty much exclusively Titanium Daydream. 518 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:52.200 Let's go. Yes. 519 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:54.520 You wanna tell the folks what Ethan wrote 520 00:25:54.520 --> 00:25:55.240 in to say? 521 00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:58.515 Absolutely. It would be my pleasure. Ethan 522 00:25:58.515 --> 00:26:01.715 writes in that they are also a huge fan of Titanium Daydream, 523 00:26:01.715 --> 00:26:05.235 which is fabulous news for me. Ethan, get in touch. Would love 524 00:26:05.235 --> 00:26:06.995 to talk to someone else who's watching. 525 00:26:07.235 --> 00:26:11.075 But they also write that what's interesting is that I think it 526 00:26:11.075 --> 00:26:14.590 both shows what's incredible about TikTok and the problem 527 00:26:14.590 --> 00:26:18.430 with algorithmic content feeds. I'm thrilled that an equation 528 00:26:18.430 --> 00:26:21.310 somehow produced the numbers that served this incredibly 529 00:26:21.310 --> 00:26:25.150 niche and esoteric video series to me. But the big caveat is 530 00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:28.590 that its weekly output schedule doesn't work well with the 531 00:26:28.590 --> 00:26:31.865 platform. You either have to diligently check-in on the 532 00:26:31.865 --> 00:26:35.545 account every Tuesday, which I sometimes do, or pray the 533 00:26:35.545 --> 00:26:39.225 algorithm brings you the next episode. So far, I haven't 534 00:26:39.225 --> 00:26:40.505 missed any episodes. 535 00:26:40.665 --> 00:26:44.025 But this randomness gives the completionist in me a bit of 536 00:26:44.025 --> 00:26:49.120 anxiety. They go on to say that this is true for a lot of other 537 00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:53.920 serialized content on TikTok, which this is exactly how I feel 538 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.040 about Titanium Daydream. 539 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:57.520 So do you are you a Tuesday viewer? How do you 540 00:26:57.520 --> 00:26:57.840 engage? 541 00:26:58.285 --> 00:27:01.245 I kind of have the the other approach, which is 542 00:27:01.245 --> 00:27:05.805 just that I regularly use TikTok and kind of hope Yeah. That it 543 00:27:05.805 --> 00:27:10.205 will bring Titanium Daydream to me. I also do I will say this. I 544 00:27:10.205 --> 00:27:15.400 follow that account on Instagram as well. And so that account 545 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:20.120 will post on their story like, hey, the next episode is up. 546 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.800 So that I can be like, oh, right. And maybe go on TikTok. 547 00:27:23.955 --> 00:27:27.075 TikTok's algorithm knows I like Titanium Daydream, and I will 548 00:27:27.155 --> 00:27:30.115 Mhmm. Always see it. I I also have not skipped an episode. 549 00:27:30.115 --> 00:27:31.715 It is funny as a counterpoint to the 550 00:27:31.715 --> 00:27:35.395 intentional Internet we were just championing a moment ago. I 551 00:27:35.395 --> 00:27:38.810 have stopped following new accounts on TikTok even. I am 552 00:27:38.810 --> 00:27:41.850 just entirely to the algorithm behold them. I I don't even like 553 00:27:41.850 --> 00:27:43.850 things anymore. I forget to heart them. 554 00:27:43.930 --> 00:27:46.650 I just watch something and I'm like, for sure, more of this 555 00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:49.290 will get back to me because I have watched it, and I let the 556 00:27:49.290 --> 00:27:51.450 numbers do their thing. I have nothing in the middle anymore. 557 00:27:51.985 --> 00:27:54.145 Yeah. I think a lot of this speaks to the kind 558 00:27:54.145 --> 00:27:57.745 of fundamental dishonesty of the algorithm whose promise was, 559 00:27:57.905 --> 00:28:00.145 hey, don't worry about it. We're gonna bring you the stuff that 560 00:28:00.145 --> 00:28:03.265 you like. And then it just doesn't. It just simply doesn't. 561 00:28:03.265 --> 00:28:05.425 It just brings you stuff that's close to the thing that you 562 00:28:05.425 --> 00:28:08.680 like, so that you spend more time letting content happen to 563 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.880 you as you turn into a puddle on your couch. And I think it 564 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:16.120 speaks to the intentionality and the specificity of RSS where you 565 00:28:16.120 --> 00:28:19.880 get to say, I like this. Bring more of it to me. And RSS just 566 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:20.520 says, okay. 567 00:28:22.265 --> 00:28:23.625 Done. I love you. 568 00:28:26.265 --> 00:28:28.345 Alright. On that, we're gonna take a break. We're 569 00:28:28.345 --> 00:28:54.165 gonna listen to some ads. For PayPal. Okay. 570 00:28:54.165 --> 00:28:59.365 We are back. Hans, we had some people write in about the just 571 00:28:59.365 --> 00:29:01.285 unbelievable number of cameras in the world. 572 00:29:01.470 --> 00:29:03.230 It is a shocking number of cameras, and I 573 00:29:03.230 --> 00:29:06.830 appreciate that everybody gets that. Pat wrote in. Pat Reddick 574 00:29:06.830 --> 00:29:11.870 wrote in to say that they really appreciated the AP footage that 575 00:29:11.870 --> 00:29:16.205 I referenced from April 2006. I found this video of how how 576 00:29:16.205 --> 00:29:18.445 amazing it was that there were three traffic cameras being put 577 00:29:18.445 --> 00:29:20.925 up in New York City, and they did whole these whole cloth 578 00:29:20.925 --> 00:29:23.725 things. And Pat says a little over three years later in 579 00:29:23.725 --> 00:29:26.445 02/2009, I was in a first year computer science studies 580 00:29:26.445 --> 00:29:26.845 lecture. 581 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.240 And even by that point, the surveillance state felt like a 582 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.440 given. So my jaw nearly hit the floor when the professor told an 583 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.040 anecdote about how he had led a push to stop the administration 584 00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:39.995 from installing cameras all around the university. I 585 00:29:39.995 --> 00:29:42.875 remember him telling the story like his view that the idea of 586 00:29:42.875 --> 00:29:45.435 cameras everywhere was a creepy prospect with little upside was 587 00:29:45.435 --> 00:29:47.595 obviously correct and, like, everyone in the room would 588 00:29:47.595 --> 00:29:50.475 agree. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there like, you mean we have a 589 00:29:50.475 --> 00:29:52.315 choice in this matter? We can opt out of this? 590 00:29:52.315 --> 00:29:54.715 Honestly, I hadn't even noticed that the university lacked 591 00:29:54.715 --> 00:29:58.040 cameras. I had just assumed that they were like everywhere else. 592 00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:01.080 I remained involved in university life until 2016, and 593 00:30:01.080 --> 00:30:05.080 they did not install any cameras I was aware of during that time. 594 00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.120 And I think that timeline makes a ton of sense. So in the 595 00:30:08.120 --> 00:30:12.205 research for the piece that I did, I had written an entire 596 00:30:12.205 --> 00:30:15.325 section that I wanted to put in that I thought I was gonna put 597 00:30:15.325 --> 00:30:18.285 in using the research of Shoshana Zuboff, who's a 598 00:30:18.285 --> 00:30:21.005 sociologist from Harvard. 599 00:30:21.165 --> 00:30:23.485 And she has this whole thing about surveillance capitalism 600 00:30:23.485 --> 00:30:27.880 that she does, which is about the industry, the money that 601 00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.120 gets put into surveillance all over the place. And she actually 602 00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:36.440 puts the rise of cameras into the late nineties, mid to late 603 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:40.215 nineties with Gore. And there's a we'll put a link to it in the 604 00:30:40.215 --> 00:30:43.175 show notes, but she's got this really great talk where she 605 00:30:43.175 --> 00:30:46.055 tells these anecdotes of being right around that time and being 606 00:30:46.055 --> 00:30:48.775 in conferences and having people be like, the information is 607 00:30:48.775 --> 00:30:50.855 everything. We need to surveil. We need to surveil. 608 00:30:51.620 --> 00:30:54.260 And so, like, you're exactly right to have noticed it at that 609 00:30:54.260 --> 00:30:57.780 moment that that was really what the ascendancy was. And a lot of 610 00:30:57.780 --> 00:31:02.020 it was in response to to nine eleven, but it started even 611 00:31:02.020 --> 00:31:02.580 before then. 612 00:31:02.580 --> 00:31:05.540 And I feel like we're only just now starting to 613 00:31:06.225 --> 00:31:11.025 see what the people who wanted the cameras might want to and be 614 00:31:11.025 --> 00:31:13.745 able to use them for. Yeah. Twenty years ago, they were 615 00:31:13.745 --> 00:31:18.065 like, we should install. We should build a horrible machine. 616 00:31:18.465 --> 00:31:18.705 Yeah. 617 00:31:18.705 --> 00:31:22.370 And in 2025, they're like, we should turn the machine on. 618 00:31:22.850 --> 00:31:23.570 Yeah. For 619 00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:26.850 that 02/2006 AP article, I found a New York 620 00:31:26.850 --> 00:31:30.050 Times article also that was talking about that same event 621 00:31:30.050 --> 00:31:34.575 from February. And in that, they basically were like, yeah. It's 622 00:31:34.575 --> 00:31:37.855 kinda weird, I guess, but, like, the quality of them is so low, 623 00:31:37.855 --> 00:31:40.655 and the data is so big, and you have to actually go to, like, 624 00:31:40.655 --> 00:31:43.695 pull the data out of the camera. So I don't think it'll ever get 625 00:31:43.695 --> 00:31:47.775 big. We laid the groundwork back then, and all we had to do is 626 00:31:47.775 --> 00:31:48.575 fix those small. 627 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:51.060 You really didn't think cameras were gonna get better? You 628 00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:54.420 really didn't think connectivity was gonna improve? Like, that 629 00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:57.540 was the only way it was gonna be limited, and now here we are 630 00:31:57.540 --> 00:32:01.700 exactly like Mike says. Chris also wrote in, and I really I 631 00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:05.915 think this is a really striking comment. Chris works at Walmart 632 00:32:05.915 --> 00:32:07.995 and says that there are cameras everywhere. 633 00:32:08.155 --> 00:32:11.595 The self checkout area alone has at least two cameras per 634 00:32:11.595 --> 00:32:15.035 checkout spot. One is to look at your face as a customer, and the 635 00:32:15.035 --> 00:32:17.675 other is to watch your scanning technique waiting for when you 636 00:32:17.675 --> 00:32:20.210 make a mistake or you might be trying to steal like the carrot 637 00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:24.050 technique. There are very few spots where there is not a 638 00:32:24.050 --> 00:32:26.930 camera of some kind. In fact, I tend to take notice of where 639 00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:30.130 there is a blind spot or a weird lack of cameras. I feel 640 00:32:30.130 --> 00:32:32.850 constantly watched because I'm being constantly watched. 641 00:32:33.395 --> 00:32:36.835 That's true. But I also know from talking to coworkers and 642 00:32:36.835 --> 00:32:40.915 customers that they do not really feel this way, which is 643 00:32:41.075 --> 00:32:44.675 very interesting. But also, like, I can't say that. That's 644 00:32:44.675 --> 00:32:46.915 deeply relatable. Like, that's what my whole piece was about. 645 00:32:46.915 --> 00:32:48.130 Like Yeah. 646 00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:50.050 Yeah. Yeah. You normalize it. Yeah. I know 647 00:32:50.050 --> 00:32:53.010 I'm constantly being watched, but I rarely engage with that 648 00:32:53.010 --> 00:32:53.650 knowledge. 649 00:32:53.890 --> 00:32:56.130 Yeah. I don't have feelings about it. And and it 650 00:32:56.130 --> 00:32:59.330 took me a lot of looking at it to actually have have any 651 00:32:59.330 --> 00:32:59.650 feeling. 652 00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:03.585 I wanna briefly return to this self checkout 653 00:33:03.585 --> 00:33:11.025 thing. Because just the fact of the normalization of of watching 654 00:33:11.025 --> 00:33:13.985 yourself. Because I even think of this at Target. Right? Like, 655 00:33:13.985 --> 00:33:18.060 the self checkout camera is showing you yourself. 656 00:33:18.060 --> 00:33:21.180 Like, you can look at it. You're watching yourself there. And 657 00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:23.340 what's interesting to me is, like, I have a lot of friends 658 00:33:23.340 --> 00:33:26.380 whose impulse when they see that is to, like, take a picture of 659 00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:30.540 themselves, like, with their phone of the self checkout 660 00:33:30.495 --> 00:33:34.735 screen that's showing them. Yeah. And it's I don't I just 661 00:33:34.735 --> 00:33:37.295 find that's, like, such an interesting reaction in the 662 00:33:37.295 --> 00:33:39.455 conversation of this normalization of just like, yep. 663 00:33:39.455 --> 00:33:41.855 That's me, and here's me, and here's my phone, and here's the 664 00:33:41.855 --> 00:33:42.095 screen. 665 00:33:42.590 --> 00:33:44.510 Taking the power back. And now I'm the 666 00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:48.670 you're I'm making content out of you. So yeah. You're the 667 00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:49.310 commodity. 668 00:33:49.310 --> 00:33:51.630 Have you guys tried to buy a power tool at a 669 00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:53.230 like a Home Depot recently? 670 00:33:54.270 --> 00:33:55.470 Oh, you know, haven't. 671 00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:58.055 In the in the hardware aisle where, like, you 672 00:33:58.055 --> 00:34:01.095 know, the angle grinders or whatever are in the Home Depot, 673 00:34:01.815 --> 00:34:05.895 there are cameras now and then small little screens that again 674 00:34:05.895 --> 00:34:09.840 show you what camera what the camera that you're on. And that 675 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.200 picture is sent to a building somewhere else. I don't I don't 676 00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:16.000 know where in another state where there are people who just 677 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.120 sit there and watch. 678 00:34:17.520 --> 00:34:17.840 Woah. 679 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.000 It is an outsourced company that looks 680 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.775 specifically at the tools in Home Depot to make sure that no 681 00:34:23.775 --> 00:34:26.895 one steals them. And I once heard a man, like, talk to 682 00:34:26.895 --> 00:34:30.895 someone through the camera to, like, explain because someone 683 00:34:30.895 --> 00:34:32.735 was, like, trying to pick up something, and they was like, 684 00:34:32.735 --> 00:34:34.975 hey. You can't you're not gonna be able to pick that up. You 685 00:34:34.975 --> 00:34:35.855 gotta go get someone. 686 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:36.880 If you 687 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.960 pull harder, you're gonna set the alarm off. 688 00:34:39.200 --> 00:34:42.800 Woah. Oh my god. This actually transitions 689 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:48.320 perfectly into the voicemail that Carl sent us about an 690 00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.445 experience that he had at a local restaurant regarding 691 00:34:51.445 --> 00:34:52.165 cameras. 692 00:34:52.165 --> 00:34:55.605 I was just in New Haven last weekend and I went to a 693 00:34:55.605 --> 00:34:58.325 really great vegan restaurant or vegetarian restaurant called 694 00:34:58.325 --> 00:35:00.885 Claire's Corner Copia, which I've been to a couple of times. 695 00:35:01.125 --> 00:35:04.405 And it's this really homey, really cute little restaurant 696 00:35:04.405 --> 00:35:09.330 with like drawings of farms on the walls. And really, I mean, I 697 00:35:09.330 --> 00:35:15.250 think kitsch in a fun way decor. And as I was kind of looking 698 00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:19.010 around enjoying my vegan French toast and taking in the 699 00:35:19.010 --> 00:35:22.425 environment, I noticed the camera. I was like, okay, 700 00:35:22.665 --> 00:35:23.945 that's, I guess, normal. 701 00:35:23.945 --> 00:35:27.465 Normal for a little restaurant to have a camera. As I was 702 00:35:27.465 --> 00:35:30.185 looking around enjoying more of the decor, I noticed another 703 00:35:30.185 --> 00:35:35.490 camera and another camera and then two more cameras. And by 704 00:35:35.490 --> 00:35:42.290 the end of my sort of aesthetic scan, I've identified 11 cameras 705 00:35:42.530 --> 00:35:43.810 in a small dining room 706 00:35:43.970 --> 00:35:44.530 Too many. 707 00:35:44.770 --> 00:35:49.055 Of a small restaurant in the middle of New Haven. Mean, I 708 00:35:49.055 --> 00:35:51.375 was bothered, obviously, by all these cameras. But the biggest 709 00:35:51.375 --> 00:35:55.615 question for me was how can there be this many cameras 710 00:35:55.615 --> 00:35:59.215 covering so small a space? And this sort of like surveillance 711 00:36:00.255 --> 00:36:05.850 ideology is so invisible that the owner of, like, a homey 712 00:36:05.850 --> 00:36:09.290 vegetarian restaurant in New Haven can think it's good and 713 00:36:09.290 --> 00:36:13.930 appropriate to to surveil from every angle possible everybody 714 00:36:13.930 --> 00:36:14.970 in the restaurant at once. 715 00:36:15.425 --> 00:36:17.825 I saw this happen on my block with Ring cameras. 716 00:36:17.825 --> 00:36:20.785 The exact same thing. When people ins people install a Ring 717 00:36:20.785 --> 00:36:24.305 camera, and they're like, I can I can finally see all of the 718 00:36:24.305 --> 00:36:27.825 horrible nonsense? They become Batman. And they're like, you 719 00:36:27.825 --> 00:36:30.580 know, I must surveil Gotham from the rooftops. 720 00:36:30.580 --> 00:36:33.380 And then they install another camera to get this angle, and 721 00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:35.540 then a third camera to get the other angle, and then a fourth. 722 00:36:35.540 --> 00:36:38.580 And then they're just watching it all day long to be like, 723 00:36:38.580 --> 00:36:41.315 who's that person that walked by in this? And I like I had to 724 00:36:41.315 --> 00:36:44.035 leave. My block had a group text, and I was like, I had to 725 00:36:44.035 --> 00:36:47.715 leave. I left it because everybody was going insane about 726 00:36:47.715 --> 00:36:52.115 just, like, normal city shit that happens on every block. 727 00:36:52.580 --> 00:36:55.460 And I think I think it is surveillance ideology. I think 728 00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:57.060 people get addicted to it. 729 00:36:57.140 --> 00:36:59.060 Yeah. Once you pop, you can't stop. 730 00:36:59.220 --> 00:37:06.885 I can just one more camera. Just one more. But 731 00:37:06.885 --> 00:37:08.965 agree. Yeah. Jason. 732 00:37:09.045 --> 00:37:11.525 I just back to this rest how many different 733 00:37:11.525 --> 00:37:14.485 types of behavior are you policing in that restaurant? 734 00:37:14.485 --> 00:37:18.325 Like, I don't know. Put one by the door. If someone ditches, 735 00:37:18.740 --> 00:37:21.300 you'll be able to, like, see their face and make this is the 736 00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:23.140 guy who ditched. Don't let them back in. 737 00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:27.220 Like, are they eating weird? What do you need to know? 738 00:37:27.220 --> 00:37:29.940 Well, that's my thing is that I'm like like, to 739 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:34.465 Carl's point, who's watching? Like, what are they why do they 740 00:37:34.465 --> 00:37:38.945 need this? It's too much. It's just undeniably too much. 741 00:37:40.225 --> 00:37:42.945 Noah Hertz writes in in response to 742 00:37:42.945 --> 00:37:48.590 George's piece on the impending once and future never resolves 743 00:37:48.590 --> 00:37:54.750 TikTok ban Yes. To brag that he deleted TikTok off his phone. 744 00:37:54.910 --> 00:37:56.030 Well well well. 745 00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:57.230 Well well, Noah. 746 00:37:58.575 --> 00:38:01.375 Noah, who you all might remember from the David 747 00:38:01.375 --> 00:38:02.335 Social segment. 748 00:38:02.335 --> 00:38:06.095 Yes. Right. And so interestingly, Noah 749 00:38:06.095 --> 00:38:09.535 remarks that he doesn't really think his average screen time 750 00:38:09.535 --> 00:38:12.175 has come down all that much since he deleted TikTok off the 751 00:38:12.175 --> 00:38:14.990 phone. Oh. He was hoping that that would be the case. 752 00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:18.990 He just replaced it with using Instagram more. But he finds 753 00:38:18.990 --> 00:38:21.950 that the average scrolling session on Instagram is far far 754 00:38:21.950 --> 00:38:24.750 shorter than it was on TikTok. 755 00:38:24.830 --> 00:38:26.190 Mhmm. Because it sucks. 756 00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:28.315 Yeah. Because it's bad. Yeah. But your body 757 00:38:28.315 --> 00:38:30.555 still needs the same amount of raw 758 00:38:30.955 --> 00:38:32.875 feed. Scrolling. 759 00:38:32.955 --> 00:38:35.195 Yeah. Now it says they learned a lot of cool 760 00:38:35.195 --> 00:38:38.555 stuff, saw lots of cute funny videos. Thanks to TikTok, but 761 00:38:38.555 --> 00:38:41.275 also felt like they spend a lot of their time watching whatever 762 00:38:41.275 --> 00:38:45.140 slop was being fed to them. Now they think they're getting more 763 00:38:45.140 --> 00:38:49.620 out of Instagram than it's getting out of them, which they 764 00:38:49.620 --> 00:38:53.540 stopped feeling like with TikTok. So I guess that's 765 00:38:53.540 --> 00:38:54.180 progress. 766 00:38:54.580 --> 00:38:58.855 Congratulations, Noah. Thank you for bragging, and I hope that 767 00:38:58.855 --> 00:39:02.215 you continue to love what Instagram is giving you. But 768 00:39:02.215 --> 00:39:04.455 it's a post script, which I found particularly interesting 769 00:39:04.455 --> 00:39:07.975 here. In light of some other emails that came in, Noah 770 00:39:07.975 --> 00:39:14.110 included a picture of him listening to Never Post on a 771 00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:15.470 classic iPod. 772 00:39:15.470 --> 00:39:16.830 Oh my god. 773 00:39:16.830 --> 00:39:20.590 I'm seeing more and more classic iPods, pictures 774 00:39:20.590 --> 00:39:25.685 of them refurbished and modified and jailbroken and whatever in 775 00:39:25.685 --> 00:39:30.245 the feed, and I support it. I fully support. Yeah. I think it 776 00:39:30.245 --> 00:39:30.565 rules. 777 00:39:30.565 --> 00:39:31.285 Oh my god. 778 00:39:31.285 --> 00:39:33.285 And this leads me to some emails we got 779 00:39:33.285 --> 00:39:36.565 harkening back to last summer's Sound Files of Summer episode, 780 00:39:37.090 --> 00:39:40.610 where we talked about our evolving strategies of music 781 00:39:40.610 --> 00:39:44.210 curation and how we stored and streamed and lost and deleted 782 00:39:44.210 --> 00:39:47.810 and refound files of music in our lives. We got an email from 783 00:39:47.810 --> 00:39:51.605 Lenny who might not be using the iPod Classic still, but is 784 00:39:51.605 --> 00:39:55.685 trading USBs with their friends. Living in Canada where music 785 00:39:55.685 --> 00:39:58.085 streaming services and phone data plans cost a lot more than 786 00:39:58.085 --> 00:40:00.805 The US, it's common to drive or visit places where you lose cell 787 00:40:00.805 --> 00:40:03.400 service and there are no radio stations. Old phones, ancient 788 00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.160 iPods, and visor holders full of CDs are our friends during these 789 00:40:07.160 --> 00:40:10.120 stretches. I often wonder if other places have similar 790 00:40:10.120 --> 00:40:13.640 experiences, especially with the rise of cheap Android phones and 791 00:40:13.640 --> 00:40:16.200 SD cards for storage. 792 00:40:16.715 --> 00:40:20.875 This is basically becoming our reject modernity use old gear 793 00:40:20.875 --> 00:40:23.195 and old protocols episode. 794 00:40:23.195 --> 00:40:24.395 Yeah. Really is. I love 795 00:40:24.395 --> 00:40:27.515 the idea of a like a file swap. Yeah. Like you 796 00:40:27.515 --> 00:40:32.830 go to a place and you bring your USB, your thumb drive, you swap 797 00:40:32.830 --> 00:40:34.270 files. Sounds great. 798 00:40:34.510 --> 00:40:36.750 Lenny's final contribution to the Sound Files 799 00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:40.110 of Summer discourse is to tell me for the second time in this 800 00:40:40.110 --> 00:40:42.590 podcast that I was wrong about something. 801 00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:44.750 You should reconsider being wrong so much. 802 00:40:47.045 --> 00:40:49.365 I went on the record as a person who used the 803 00:40:49.365 --> 00:40:52.405 star ratings on iTunes. My favorite songs were five stars. 804 00:40:52.405 --> 00:40:54.805 My least favorite were one star. Lenny tells me that this is 805 00:40:54.805 --> 00:40:58.085 wrong, and that the on the go music management system that 806 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:01.290 works the best is one star for your best music, five stars for 807 00:41:01.290 --> 00:41:03.770 the ones you wanna delete so that you can quickly mark a song 808 00:41:03.770 --> 00:41:06.650 to delete without taking your iPod out of your pocket, which 809 00:41:06.650 --> 00:41:10.250 is some next level behavior, Lenny. You keep up literally 810 00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:11.850 everything you're doing up there. 811 00:41:14.205 --> 00:41:17.805 Ronald wrote in in response to the segment that 812 00:41:17.805 --> 00:41:23.245 I made about real photos that look like AI and what this does 813 00:41:23.245 --> 00:41:27.245 to sort of like our sense of being able to know things and 814 00:41:27.245 --> 00:41:30.810 what the truth is and what is real. Ronald wrote, thought you 815 00:41:30.810 --> 00:41:33.450 might want to know that AI is already well and truly 816 00:41:33.450 --> 00:41:35.930 contributing to the erosion of the foundations of modern 817 00:41:35.930 --> 00:41:39.930 scientific inquiry. Academic watchdog blog Retraction Watch 818 00:41:39.930 --> 00:41:44.010 recently published an article on vegetative electron microscopy, 819 00:41:44.425 --> 00:41:47.785 a borderline nonsense phrase that began making its way into 820 00:41:47.785 --> 00:41:51.865 publications apparently because an AI algorithm spliced together 821 00:41:51.865 --> 00:41:56.585 words across the gap between two justified columns in an article 822 00:41:56.585 --> 00:42:02.730 from 1959. Holy shit. Regardless of its origins, the phrase is 823 00:42:02.730 --> 00:42:05.530 almost always an indicator that a paper was produced by a 824 00:42:05.530 --> 00:42:06.730 publication mill. 825 00:42:06.890 --> 00:42:09.690 One set of authors claims to use the phrase to define a specific 826 00:42:09.690 --> 00:42:12.250 analytic technique, but I'm not enough of an expert in 827 00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:15.095 microscopy to adjudicate this claim. If you're trained in the 828 00:42:15.095 --> 00:42:18.615 STEM fields, searching Google Scholar for vegetative electron 829 00:42:18.615 --> 00:42:22.775 microscopy with the quotation marks is good for a chuckle or 830 00:42:22.775 --> 00:42:25.575 maybe a looming sense of dread as one of humanity's best tools 831 00:42:25.575 --> 00:42:27.895 for fashioning truth from falsehoods falls into 832 00:42:27.895 --> 00:42:31.390 fabrications. One of my favorite results, this article, and we'll 833 00:42:31.390 --> 00:42:34.350 put a link in the show notes from 2022, which was low key 834 00:42:34.350 --> 00:42:38.590 corrected in June 2024 to remove the offending phrase and to 835 00:42:38.590 --> 00:42:41.630 renumber most of the citations, which were apparently wrong. 836 00:42:42.145 --> 00:42:43.665 See? Hilarious. 837 00:42:45.425 --> 00:42:47.665 Please help. I'm scared. Ronald, 838 00:42:47.665 --> 00:42:48.065 right there 839 00:42:48.065 --> 00:42:52.225 with you. I think, you know, it's you wanna 840 00:42:52.225 --> 00:42:56.570 believe that this sort of technology is used for fun, you 841 00:42:56.570 --> 00:42:59.850 know, in with a bunch of quotes around it to make weird silly 842 00:42:59.850 --> 00:43:02.970 pictures that you couldn't make otherwise, you know, and maybe 843 00:43:02.970 --> 00:43:06.330 people don't know what the cost of that is. But, yeah, it's 844 00:43:06.330 --> 00:43:07.050 everywhere. 845 00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:07.850 Yeah. Yeah. 846 00:43:07.850 --> 00:43:08.250 Whoops. 847 00:43:08.425 --> 00:43:08.905 Whoops. 848 00:43:08.905 --> 00:43:11.945 Whoops. Some folks also wrote in about my 849 00:43:11.945 --> 00:43:14.825 segment on blocking, where I spoke with Caroline Cinders 850 00:43:14.825 --> 00:43:17.465 about what it feels like to block people and what the 851 00:43:17.465 --> 00:43:20.105 technology is for and its usefulness and the kind of 852 00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:24.660 ambivalence that you can feel around blocking. Alex Posten 853 00:43:24.660 --> 00:43:27.700 says, please forgive the following tortured metaphors. I 854 00:43:27.700 --> 00:43:30.980 will. Like a lot of people, I began the process of jumping 855 00:43:30.980 --> 00:43:34.260 ship from Twitter after the Elon takeover and finally permanently 856 00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:36.835 deleted my account after the changes to the block function 857 00:43:36.835 --> 00:43:37.715 were announced. 858 00:43:37.875 --> 00:43:41.075 Blocking, IMO, is the most important safety feature for a 859 00:43:41.075 --> 00:43:43.715 social platform, and when safety features don't function 860 00:43:43.715 --> 00:43:46.915 properly, people get hurt. If Kia pushed an update to my car 861 00:43:46.915 --> 00:43:49.795 telling me that going forward, my airbags would only sort of 862 00:43:49.795 --> 00:43:53.180 work, I'm shopping for a new car that day. To paraphrase a line 863 00:43:53.180 --> 00:43:56.860 from doctor who, blocking isn't self care, it's pest control. 864 00:43:57.180 --> 00:44:00.060 And so far, as I'm aware, nobody has built a better mousetrap 865 00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:03.260 than blue sky. The nuclear block should be the standard for 866 00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:03.820 social media. 867 00:44:04.285 --> 00:44:08.205 I'm sure the of blue sky will come eventually, but for now, 868 00:44:08.205 --> 00:44:10.605 I'll just sit back and enjoy the sound of my own voice and the 869 00:44:10.605 --> 00:44:13.405 voices of folks I actually wanna hear instead of listening to all 870 00:44:13.405 --> 00:44:17.325 the rats skittering behind the walls. I mean, I will say the 871 00:44:17.325 --> 00:44:21.400 blue sky block is incredible. It's really great. One wonders 872 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:25.400 whether or not it will eventually be nerfed in some way 873 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.320 or another as brands show up because, you know, if Blue Sky 874 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.595 wants to make money from brand presence and they want if they 875 00:44:32.595 --> 00:44:35.795 end up wanting to do in line advertising, you're right. They 876 00:44:35.795 --> 00:44:39.155 almost certainly will not allow you to block as effectively 877 00:44:39.155 --> 00:44:43.795 those accounts as they do, you know, other posters because 878 00:44:43.795 --> 00:44:46.300 that's gonna be part of their business model. 879 00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:49.020 But fingers crossed, you know, whatever solution comes along, 880 00:44:49.340 --> 00:44:53.500 it doesn't detract from what is yeah. Like, a really, really 881 00:44:53.500 --> 00:44:57.580 just incredibly effective moderation tool. Ellie also 882 00:44:57.580 --> 00:45:02.205 wrote in on a difficult decision to block or to not block someone 883 00:45:02.205 --> 00:45:04.205 that she knows in meatspace. 884 00:45:04.365 --> 00:45:07.085 You know, I think often we think about blocking as a tool 885 00:45:07.085 --> 00:45:12.045 that we can use for harassment, like you like you mentioned on 886 00:45:12.045 --> 00:45:16.020 the show. But the only reason I haven't blocked this particular 887 00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:19.780 person that I'm thinking about is that they are, to some 888 00:45:19.780 --> 00:45:26.180 extent, still within my existing IRL social network. Right? And 889 00:45:26.180 --> 00:45:30.455 this is somebody that had sort of career power over me for a 890 00:45:30.455 --> 00:45:35.335 while and is still, to my knowledge, relatively well 891 00:45:35.335 --> 00:45:40.615 regarded. And so, you know, I the the thing that's kept me 892 00:45:40.615 --> 00:45:45.020 from blocking her for so long is like, what if she finds out? 893 00:45:45.020 --> 00:45:50.540 And then she's like, what beef does Ellie have with me? And, 894 00:45:50.540 --> 00:45:55.660 you know, could that have consequences in my career or in 895 00:45:55.980 --> 00:45:59.705 or or could that be a reason that I don't get an opportunity 896 00:45:59.705 --> 00:46:02.985 later? What does it mean to block someone when you can't 897 00:46:02.985 --> 00:46:06.105 block them in real life also, you know? 898 00:46:06.185 --> 00:46:08.025 Yeah. This is extremely 899 00:46:08.025 --> 00:46:11.305 relatable. We're all staring at each other 900 00:46:11.305 --> 00:46:12.985 uneasily right 901 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:15.680 Jason doesn't know I have him muted on 902 00:46:15.680 --> 00:46:16.400 everything. 903 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.200 I was gonna say, is this is the case for 904 00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:20.080 mute. Right? 905 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.040 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Unless you don't 906 00:46:23.120 --> 00:46:25.375 like, it depends upon, I think, how well you know the person and 907 00:46:25.375 --> 00:46:27.295 how likely it is in conversation. They're gonna be 908 00:46:27.295 --> 00:46:28.655 like, oh, you saw that thing I put. 909 00:46:28.655 --> 00:46:31.695 Right? Like, whatever whatever. Sure. Like, you can always say, 910 00:46:31.695 --> 00:46:33.695 like, oh, no. Like, I haven't signed in in a couple days, and 911 00:46:33.695 --> 00:46:35.935 there's some, you know, plausible deniability. 912 00:46:36.175 --> 00:46:38.770 But, yeah, there's the case for mute. I also like there are 913 00:46:38.770 --> 00:46:42.530 people who I haven't unfollowed because I'm like, I don't I feel 914 00:46:42.530 --> 00:46:45.810 some pressure to be, like, continuing to follow this person 915 00:46:45.810 --> 00:46:48.930 that I like, you know, really have no interest in seeing 916 00:46:48.930 --> 00:46:52.450 anything that goes on with them. Mhmm. But I justify it to myself 917 00:46:52.450 --> 00:46:54.985 where I'm like, well, I'm like, think the creepiest way to put 918 00:46:54.985 --> 00:46:57.705 it is, like, keeping tabs on them. See what they're up to. 919 00:46:57.865 --> 00:46:58.425 Yeah. 920 00:46:58.425 --> 00:46:59.785 Make sure I'm not where they are. 921 00:46:59.785 --> 00:47:02.105 Is this your version of a vegetarian 922 00:47:02.105 --> 00:47:08.300 restaurant full of cameras? And finally, as a tradition rounding 923 00:47:08.300 --> 00:47:11.900 out the mailbag and update to cool graffiti that people have 924 00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:12.780 sent us. I 925 00:47:13.020 --> 00:47:15.020 think isn't it funny graffiti? I think it's 926 00:47:15.020 --> 00:47:15.980 funny tags. 927 00:47:15.980 --> 00:47:17.020 Right? Okay. Yeah. 928 00:47:17.020 --> 00:47:19.980 It used to be single word graffiti. Its purest 929 00:47:19.980 --> 00:47:25.125 state is single word graffiti that you found funny. And Hans, 930 00:47:25.125 --> 00:47:27.365 I think there's a name in here you might recognize. 931 00:47:27.845 --> 00:47:29.205 Oh, Steven Heil. 932 00:47:29.205 --> 00:47:30.965 Eagle eared listeners might recognize from 933 00:47:30.965 --> 00:47:34.485 earlier in the program, Steven Heil. Yeah. Who spotted in 934 00:47:34.485 --> 00:47:38.990 Brooklyn, a purist's one word answer, which is okra. 935 00:47:39.230 --> 00:47:43.070 Yes. Scrolled on just a regular brick wall. 936 00:47:43.070 --> 00:47:43.710 Yes. 937 00:47:44.350 --> 00:47:46.030 And then for those of us who are allowing 938 00:47:46.030 --> 00:47:48.990 more words in these things, a beautiful bathroom wall that 939 00:47:48.990 --> 00:47:51.305 says watch Star Trek the next generation. 940 00:47:53.705 --> 00:47:54.345 Solid advice. 941 00:47:54.345 --> 00:47:56.585 I didn't get a picture of it, but I will. And 942 00:47:56.585 --> 00:47:59.305 then I will formally submit it for the next. But I saw a tag 943 00:47:59.305 --> 00:48:03.705 also in Brooklyn yesterday. Very artfully. Clearly, someone spent 944 00:48:03.705 --> 00:48:04.825 a lot of time on it. 945 00:48:04.825 --> 00:48:08.080 It said, oh boy, enema. 946 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:10.960 Oh boy. 947 00:48:11.040 --> 00:48:14.320 That's great. That's great. There's a lot more 948 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.640 graffiti in the mailbag. I'm gonna save some of it for next 949 00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:18.960 week because we are running out of time that we have for this 950 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.040 week to talk. But there's one more graffiti I wanna talk about 951 00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:22.535 before send us all home. 952 00:48:23.175 --> 00:48:28.375 And that is friend of the show Talia has found us another 953 00:48:28.375 --> 00:48:29.255 Garfies. 954 00:48:29.255 --> 00:48:31.255 Woo. Oh, no. Woo. 955 00:48:31.495 --> 00:48:34.400 It looks like it looks like this is forever. This 956 00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:35.920 is a big titty Garfies. 957 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:36.640 It sure is. 958 00:48:36.640 --> 00:48:39.120 A big titty Garfie holding a bomb? A bomb? 959 00:48:39.120 --> 00:48:39.840 Yes. Absolutely. 960 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:40.480 I did 961 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:40.880 a little bit 962 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.200 of research. Now that there's two Garfies. 963 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.120 This is apparently a thing in Melbourne. Most specifically, 964 00:48:47.120 --> 00:48:50.025 there are Garfies everywhere. Garfies across Say right. 965 00:48:52.265 --> 00:48:57.545 Melbourne. Sorry, everyone. For those of you who are new to 966 00:48:57.545 --> 00:49:01.560 Garfies, it is Garfield with tits doing things. 967 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:03.880 Big tittie Garfield. 968 00:49:04.040 --> 00:49:06.680 They're apparently all over Melbourne, 969 00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.160 and I have no idea why. And no one else does. 970 00:49:09.160 --> 00:49:10.840 I actually like it less when you do that. 971 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:14.475 But to remind our listeners that we do accept 972 00:49:14.475 --> 00:49:15.995 pitches. Yes. 973 00:49:17.275 --> 00:49:20.475 We the line is open, and we're ready to listen 974 00:49:20.475 --> 00:49:21.115 to you. 975 00:49:21.115 --> 00:49:22.795 Toby. Toby. 976 00:49:24.395 --> 00:49:27.030 Okay. That's what we got for you in mailbag. Thank 977 00:49:27.030 --> 00:49:30.150 you everybody for writing in, calling in, sending us your 978 00:49:30.150 --> 00:49:33.030 voice memos, sending us your emails. Thank you friends for 979 00:49:33.030 --> 00:49:36.550 the conversation. We're gonna be back in the feed one week from 980 00:49:36.550 --> 00:49:39.355 today on April 9. 981 00:49:39.835 --> 00:49:40.955 We'll see you then. 982 00:49:41.275 --> 00:49:41.915 Bye.