WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.715 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:14.715 --> 00:00:16.955 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16.955 --> 00:00:23.355 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Monday, 05/19/2025 at 08:19PM 4 00:00:23.355 --> 00:00:27.590 eastern, and we have a sensational show for you this 5 00:00:27.590 --> 00:00:33.110 week. First, what can hentai teach us about platforms? What 6 00:00:33.110 --> 00:00:35.910 can platforms teach us about hentai? 7 00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:40.725 We look with Morgan Sung, host and writer of KQED's fabulous 8 00:00:40.725 --> 00:00:45.605 Internet podcast, close all tabs at this racy genre and what it 9 00:00:45.605 --> 00:00:50.405 reveals about the Internet of today. Then Georgia talks with 10 00:00:50.405 --> 00:00:54.405 Wired staff writer Boone Ashworth about the tariffs 11 00:00:53.930 --> 00:00:59.050 coming for your fashion micro trends. Office siren, mob wife, 12 00:00:59.130 --> 00:01:03.290 bog chic. Can they survive? Should they survive? 13 00:01:03.370 --> 00:01:07.285 And also ask an expert. But right now, we're gonna take a 14 00:01:07.285 --> 00:01:09.845 quick break. You're gonna listen to some ads unless you're on the 15 00:01:09.845 --> 00:01:13.045 member feed. And when we return, we're gonna talk about a few of 16 00:01:13.045 --> 00:01:15.365 the things that have happened since the last time you heard 17 00:01:15.365 --> 00:01:17.765 from us. Get hype. 18 00:01:17.765 --> 00:01:22.740 I've got five stories for you this week. Scientists, those 19 00:01:22.740 --> 00:01:28.180 freaks absolutely blasted human cells with five g signals to see 20 00:01:28.180 --> 00:01:32.100 if there are any adverse effects and folks, this is gonna knock 21 00:01:32.100 --> 00:01:35.975 your socks off. There are not. This according to a paper 22 00:01:35.975 --> 00:01:39.015 published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 23 00:01:39.015 --> 00:01:43.175 of the United States of America's Nexus Journal. Gizmodo 24 00:01:43.175 --> 00:01:46.615 reports that quote, researchers exposed two types of human skin 25 00:01:46.615 --> 00:01:50.770 cells called fibroblasts and keratinocytes to five g 26 00:01:50.770 --> 00:01:54.370 electromagnetic waves at twenty seven and forty point five 27 00:01:54.370 --> 00:01:57.650 gigahertz frequencies with varying levels of intensity. 28 00:01:57.650 --> 00:02:00.930 Ultimately, the report says their results show with great 29 00:02:00.930 --> 00:02:04.445 clarity that in human skin cells even under worst case 30 00:02:04.445 --> 00:02:08.525 conditions, no significant changes in gene expression or 31 00:02:08.525 --> 00:02:12.925 methylation patterns are observed after exposure. So no 32 00:02:12.925 --> 00:02:16.250 x-ray vision or lizard skin mutations. I'm sort of 33 00:02:16.250 --> 00:02:21.130 disappointed, honestly. Leading up to the recent Canadian 34 00:02:21.130 --> 00:02:24.650 election, the Toronto Metropolitan University's social 35 00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:27.370 media lab discovered the existence of what they're 36 00:02:27.370 --> 00:02:31.965 calling chameleon ads on Facebook, where scammers will 37 00:02:31.965 --> 00:02:35.565 set up a fake Facebook page linking to a fake website and 38 00:02:35.565 --> 00:02:39.485 submit seemingly anodyne ads for approval to the platform. Once 39 00:02:39.485 --> 00:02:41.965 given the green light, scammers will then switch out the 40 00:02:41.965 --> 00:02:46.080 entirety of the content, replacing harmless if fraudulent 41 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.600 advertisements with, you guessed it, crypto scams, which have 42 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:52.800 recently featured deepfakes involving Canadian politicians. 43 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.240 Scammers, the lab says, will often switch the content of the 44 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.535 ads back and forth multiple times, making them harder to 45 00:02:59.535 --> 00:03:03.535 track down. When the scam ads are finally taken down, the lab 46 00:03:03.535 --> 00:03:07.935 says, Facebook will delete them and their associated pages, 47 00:03:07.935 --> 00:03:11.215 which makes research and therefore prevention more 48 00:03:11.215 --> 00:03:15.680 difficult. The lab calls on Meta to better archive scam ads and 49 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.720 their associated pages after taking them down so that 50 00:03:18.720 --> 00:03:23.920 researchers can work to prevent further fraud. Twenty three and 51 00:03:23.920 --> 00:03:27.025 Me has sold to the multibillion dollar New York based 52 00:03:27.025 --> 00:03:33.905 biotechnology company Regeneron for $256,000,000, 4 0 4 media 53 00:03:33.905 --> 00:03:37.425 reports, which means the genetic data for the roughly 17,000,000 54 00:03:37.425 --> 00:03:41.190 people who used the company's services is worth about $15 a 55 00:03:41.190 --> 00:03:44.870 pop. No word yet on what exactly Regeneron plans to do with this 56 00:03:44.870 --> 00:03:48.390 vast repository of genetic info, but they have said they expect 57 00:03:48.390 --> 00:03:52.150 23 and me will, quote, continue all consumer genome services 58 00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:53.270 uninterrupted. 59 00:03:53.430 --> 00:03:56.535 In a statement on the sale, Regeneron writes, Regeneron 60 00:03:56.535 --> 00:03:59.815 intends to ensure compliance with 23andMe's consumer privacy 61 00:03:59.815 --> 00:04:02.615 policies and applicable laws with respect to the treatment of 62 00:04:02.615 --> 00:04:05.735 customer data. As the successful bidder, Regeneron is prepared to 63 00:04:05.735 --> 00:04:08.580 detail the intended use of customer data and the privacy 64 00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:11.540 programs and security controls in place for review by a court 65 00:04:11.540 --> 00:04:15.300 appointed independent customer privacy ombudsman and other 66 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:27.035 interested parties. And finally, COSA is back. We talked about 67 00:04:27.035 --> 00:04:31.195 the kids online safety act in episode 22, don't panic, from 68 00:04:31.195 --> 00:04:34.810 November of last year. It failed a house vote then, but co 69 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:37.930 sponsors Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee and Richard Blumenthal 70 00:04:37.930 --> 00:04:39.930 of Connecticut have reintroduced it. 71 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:43.210 The bill nominally requires platforms to more effectively 72 00:04:43.210 --> 00:04:46.730 behave in the interest of kids using their services, but in 73 00:04:46.730 --> 00:04:50.295 fact could enable political targeting and the removal of 74 00:04:50.295 --> 00:04:54.535 resources crucial to groups like transgender teens. This is a 75 00:04:54.535 --> 00:04:58.215 complicated issue and a big story larger than we have time 76 00:04:58.215 --> 00:05:02.010 for in the news, which is why in this episode, in our 77 00:05:02.010 --> 00:05:06.810 interstitials, we're talking again with Avery Dame Griff, the 78 00:05:06.810 --> 00:05:11.210 historian and lecturer from episode 22, about the return of 79 00:05:11.210 --> 00:05:19.185 Xhosa and what you need to know about its reintroduction. That's 80 00:05:19.185 --> 00:05:22.305 the news I have for you this week. First, how platforms ate 81 00:05:22.305 --> 00:05:26.545 the Internet with the exception of hentai, apparently. Then, 82 00:05:26.545 --> 00:05:28.705 will the tariffs come for your little treats? 83 00:05:28.705 --> 00:05:31.185 Spoiler alert, they already have. But now in our 84 00:05:31.185 --> 00:05:35.700 interstitials, Hans talks with Avery Dame Griff for our first 85 00:05:35.700 --> 00:05:41.220 edition of Ask An Expert about the Kids Online Safety Act. 86 00:05:52.875 --> 00:05:56.075 Avery Damegriff, thank you so much for joining us 87 00:05:56.075 --> 00:05:59.995 for the first ever ask an expert. You truly are an expert. 88 00:06:00.155 --> 00:06:04.290 You are a lecturer in women, gender, and sexuality studies at 89 00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:09.010 Gonzaga University. You also founded and you serve as the 90 00:06:09.010 --> 00:06:11.890 primary curator for Queer Digital History Project, which 91 00:06:11.890 --> 00:06:15.090 is an independent community history project, and it catalogs 92 00:06:15.090 --> 00:06:20.175 and archives pre twenty ten LGBTQ spaces online. You also 93 00:06:20.175 --> 00:06:23.855 maintain the archival Internet video index, which indexes video 94 00:06:23.855 --> 00:06:26.495 footage of pre Internet and early Internet communication 95 00:06:26.495 --> 00:06:27.215 platforms. 96 00:06:27.535 --> 00:06:30.850 Your award winning book, the two revolutions, a history of the 97 00:06:30.850 --> 00:06:34.930 Transgender Internet from NYU Press in 2023, it tracks how the 98 00:06:34.930 --> 00:06:37.810 Internet transformed gender political organizing from the 99 00:06:37.810 --> 00:06:41.650 nineteen eighties to the contemporary moment. In 2022, 100 00:06:41.650 --> 00:06:44.895 you were selected to be a public humanities fellow for the 101 00:06:44.895 --> 00:06:47.615 Humanities Washington, developing a series of 102 00:06:47.615 --> 00:06:50.655 interactive online exhibits, teaching guides, and workshops 103 00:06:50.815 --> 00:06:54.735 about the history of LGBTQ plus communities in online spaces. 104 00:06:55.055 --> 00:07:00.060 And last autumn, you and I both worked together on an episode, 105 00:07:00.220 --> 00:07:03.580 that helped us, and I think our audience, understand the moral 106 00:07:03.580 --> 00:07:07.420 panics that are driving the push for COSA, the Kids Online Safety 107 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:11.900 Act. Avery, COSA is back in the news, so we wanted to come to 108 00:07:11.900 --> 00:07:16.745 you and ask you, our COSA expert, is this bill gonna make 109 00:07:16.745 --> 00:07:18.425 kids safe online? 110 00:07:19.785 --> 00:07:20.105 Avery Dame-Griff: Nope. 111 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:45.400 Asking what comes after platforms is a bit like 112 00:07:45.400 --> 00:07:50.215 asking what comes after cities. They define our landscape so 113 00:07:50.215 --> 00:07:53.255 much that I struggle to picture a horizon that doesn't feature 114 00:07:53.255 --> 00:07:57.335 their hulking shape. If not platforms as they are now, per 115 00:07:57.335 --> 00:08:01.430 se, then surely we'll continue on inside their hollowed out 116 00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:06.470 shells, dystopic squatters in the ruins of the old Internet. 117 00:08:06.870 --> 00:08:10.470 To misquote Frederic Jamison, it's a bit easier to imagine the 118 00:08:10.470 --> 00:08:16.245 end of the Internet than the end of platforms. I ask this because 119 00:08:16.245 --> 00:08:19.845 it feels, to run the risk of overstating it by putting it 120 00:08:19.845 --> 00:08:24.005 very plainly, like the age of the platform is ending and has 121 00:08:24.005 --> 00:08:25.525 maybe even ended. 122 00:08:25.925 --> 00:08:30.850 Facebook, x, Instagram, Airbnb, Uber, etcetera, they all came in 123 00:08:30.850 --> 00:08:34.770 a short amount of time to define my understanding at least of the 124 00:08:34.770 --> 00:08:39.170 global network. Even from a critical perspective, realizing 125 00:08:39.170 --> 00:08:44.245 that they and the Internet are not one in the same, it became 126 00:08:44.245 --> 00:08:47.125 more difficult than it should have been for me to think of the 127 00:08:47.125 --> 00:08:51.925 Internet outside of the totalizing infrastructural ideal 128 00:08:51.925 --> 00:08:57.710 of the platform and platforms themselves. They began to feel a 129 00:08:57.710 --> 00:09:02.270 bit like the AOL and the CompuServe of my youth, walled 130 00:09:02.270 --> 00:09:07.865 gardens enclosing much larger and freer territory. But what 131 00:09:07.865 --> 00:09:12.665 once felt ubiquitous and frankly, untoppable is now the 132 00:09:12.665 --> 00:09:16.985 subject of increasing, though insufficient regulation, and 133 00:09:16.985 --> 00:09:21.065 more significantly, public suspicion. And rightfully so, 134 00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:25.160 given that this sub era of the platform Internet has been 135 00:09:25.160 --> 00:09:29.880 defined by social, economic, political, and emotional 136 00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:33.080 turmoil, which if it can't be blamed on the platforms 137 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.765 themselves, portions of that blame can certainly be placed at 138 00:09:36.765 --> 00:09:39.085 the feet of the people who run them. 139 00:09:40.205 --> 00:09:44.605 Do these circumstances predict the demise of the platform? It 140 00:09:44.605 --> 00:09:47.805 has been perhaps difficult to imagine an Internet without 141 00:09:47.805 --> 00:09:56.790 them, but now can we? Must we? What could we stand to gain in 142 00:09:56.790 --> 00:10:02.390 the demise of the platform is a question that may help answer if 143 00:10:02.390 --> 00:10:05.685 there is some chance to the possibility of its 144 00:10:05.685 --> 00:10:10.245 disappearance. Let's consider what we lost in the platform's 145 00:10:10.245 --> 00:10:15.045 rise to prominence and what we value about it so that it was 146 00:10:15.045 --> 00:10:18.885 allowed to become the organizing principle of the last two 147 00:10:18.885 --> 00:10:20.490 decades online. 148 00:10:21.450 --> 00:10:24.090 Along the way, we're gonna talk to journalist Morgan Sung 149 00:10:24.410 --> 00:10:26.170 I I do love to cover the weird. 150 00:10:26.810 --> 00:10:28.570 And academic Aurelie Petit 151 00:10:28.810 --> 00:10:30.650 It's a it's a very European perspective on 152 00:10:30.650 --> 00:10:30.970 media. 153 00:10:32.225 --> 00:10:34.945 About how things got this way and whether they 154 00:10:34.945 --> 00:10:37.745 think there's any chance they'll change. 155 00:10:38.385 --> 00:10:40.705 Like, the platform is just a middleman, 156 00:10:40.705 --> 00:10:43.185 which would be a good definition of platform. It's like a 157 00:10:43.185 --> 00:10:47.620 middleman for content between a producer and, you know, a 158 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.340 consumer. 159 00:10:48.500 --> 00:10:50.500 I don't know if a world without platforms is 160 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:52.420 possible, and maybe that's just me being, you know, really 161 00:10:52.420 --> 00:10:55.140 myopic because I've I've only known a world with platforms. 162 00:11:04.715 --> 00:11:07.755 In a 2010 New Media and Society paper titled 163 00:11:07.755 --> 00:11:11.115 The Politics of Platforms, researcher and communications 164 00:11:11.115 --> 00:11:15.595 professor Tarlatan Gillespie helped solidify what exactly a 165 00:11:15.595 --> 00:11:20.180 platform is. He lays out four senses of the word platform to 166 00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:23.460 ask how each applies to the eponymous piece of Internet 167 00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:28.260 infrastructure. The senses are computational, architectural, 168 00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:34.445 figurative, and political. We'll take each of those in turn. X, 169 00:11:34.445 --> 00:11:38.765 Flickr, eBay, etcetera are above all and first pieces of 170 00:11:38.765 --> 00:11:39.485 software. 171 00:11:39.725 --> 00:11:43.405 Quote, infrastructure that supports the design and use of 172 00:11:43.405 --> 00:11:48.190 particular applications, end quote. Like Macintosh and PC are 173 00:11:48.190 --> 00:11:52.990 platforms so too are WhatsApp, Snapchat, and Weibo. They are 174 00:11:52.990 --> 00:11:57.630 next, quote, human built structures. They're elevated, if 175 00:11:57.630 --> 00:12:00.925 not actually, then conceptually such that one may be better 176 00:12:00.925 --> 00:12:05.885 noticed, better reach an audience perhaps. Platforms are 177 00:12:05.885 --> 00:12:10.125 then also a starting point for further building or growth or 178 00:12:10.125 --> 00:12:14.130 action on the part of developers and on the part of users. 179 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:20.050 And finally, they are political. They define or comprise core 180 00:12:20.050 --> 00:12:23.970 beliefs from which a whole constellation of positions or 181 00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:28.225 assumptions follow. So what happens when we put all this 182 00:12:28.225 --> 00:12:32.865 together? Tech companies form something between a product and 183 00:12:32.865 --> 00:12:38.145 a place with an aim, a piece of software that masquerades as a 184 00:12:38.145 --> 00:12:42.370 public space where multiple disparate groups meet around 185 00:12:42.370 --> 00:12:46.290 some collective, though often asymmetric purpose that is 186 00:12:46.290 --> 00:12:50.690 usually economic. A platform is a place for people to connect 187 00:12:50.690 --> 00:12:54.035 and share and learn and entertain, but it is only those 188 00:12:54.035 --> 00:12:58.595 things unceasingly as long as it is also a place to connect 189 00:12:58.595 --> 00:13:03.155 brands, people, advertisers, data brokers, and increasingly 190 00:13:03.235 --> 00:13:05.875 governments, their stooges, and agents. 191 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:11.000 To render this as succinctly as we can, a platform is a mutable 192 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.240 programmable interface which elevates some portion of users, 193 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.680 though that may or may not be the most public facing group, 194 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:23.545 thus allowing the formation or participation in a hierarchy 195 00:13:23.545 --> 00:13:29.705 which creates or recreates a political order. This takes us 196 00:13:29.705 --> 00:13:34.345 back to the last of Gillespie's platform senses. They define 197 00:13:34.345 --> 00:13:38.720 some core set of political beliefs. What might those 198 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:44.480 beliefs be for, say, Reddit, Pinterest, Threads, Discord, 199 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:49.120 Tumblr? And having decided on those, what sorts of rules, 200 00:13:49.575 --> 00:13:54.775 policies, actions, or inactions reflect those beliefs? 201 00:13:55.255 --> 00:13:59.575 And how does this help create or recreate a political order that 202 00:13:59.575 --> 00:14:03.415 exists in a much larger sense outside the bounds of the 203 00:14:03.415 --> 00:14:08.310 platform itself? The answers to these questions fall under a 204 00:14:08.310 --> 00:14:23.085 distinct area of consideration known as platform governance. It 205 00:14:23.085 --> 00:14:26.845 feels safe to say that the most well known tool in the belt of 206 00:14:26.845 --> 00:14:30.765 platform governance is moderation. Decisions made 207 00:14:30.765 --> 00:14:33.805 concerning what is allowed to be posted and what is not, 208 00:14:33.885 --> 00:14:37.490 according sometimes to terms of service, to community 209 00:14:37.490 --> 00:14:42.930 guidelines, and so on. But in a lot of cases, according to 210 00:14:42.930 --> 00:14:47.970 vibes, it is a perennial story online to have been deleted, 211 00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:52.305 suspended, banned, limited for posts which pass in some 212 00:14:52.305 --> 00:14:54.545 circumstances, but not others. 213 00:14:55.265 --> 00:15:00.065 There is the ban hammer, but there is also the vibe axe. 214 00:15:01.025 --> 00:15:04.225 Charting these vibes, looking carefully at things which should 215 00:15:04.225 --> 00:15:08.520 trigger moderation but don't, or which do but it's unclear why, 216 00:15:08.920 --> 00:15:12.120 can help us in the aim of figuring out what kind of world 217 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:16.520 those designing and running platforms imagine, what sort of 218 00:15:16.520 --> 00:15:21.000 society they desire or feel for their own continued existence 219 00:15:20.925 --> 00:15:24.445 they must create. One content type that can help us look 220 00:15:24.445 --> 00:15:30.685 deeply into this vibe abyss is hentai, which means something 221 00:15:30.685 --> 00:15:34.010 more broad in Japanese than it does in English, but which for 222 00:15:34.010 --> 00:15:36.970 most of our audience will indicate a genre of media at the 223 00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:43.130 edges of both pornography and illustration or animation. I 224 00:15:43.130 --> 00:15:46.090 talked with Morgan Tseng about this, about what we can learn 225 00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:49.610 about platforms through their treatment of hentai in the West 226 00:15:49.395 --> 00:15:53.075 and what we can learn about hentai through its treatment by 227 00:15:53.075 --> 00:15:56.515 platforms. Morgan is a journalist and culture writer 228 00:15:56.515 --> 00:16:00.355 who covers all things weird, wild, and Internet in many 229 00:16:00.355 --> 00:16:04.995 places, including on her podcast with KQED called Close All Tabs 230 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.960 with whom we have collaborated for this segment. 231 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:13.440 The first thing I asked her just to get on the same page is what 232 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.680 is hentai exactly? 233 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:22.225 Hentai is in Japan just under the umbrella of anime 234 00:16:22.225 --> 00:16:25.505 and manga and video games, where it's just animated. Anything 235 00:16:25.505 --> 00:16:29.825 animated is anime, manga, video games. Hentai just means that 236 00:16:29.825 --> 00:16:33.825 it's sexually explicit. And hentai occupies this weird space 237 00:16:33.825 --> 00:16:38.440 in the content ecosystem because it's not considered porn. It's 238 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.040 very rarely prioritized on porn sites, but it's also too 239 00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:45.240 explicit for mainstream streaming platforms. 240 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.400 So it's kind of shunned. 241 00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:50.680 Hentai doesn't really have a home on the 242 00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:54.195 internet in the West. There's Pornhub, where it was the number 243 00:16:54.195 --> 00:16:57.715 one search term for the past four years running, and yet 244 00:16:57.715 --> 00:17:01.555 remains a second class content type in ways we'll discuss in a 245 00:17:01.555 --> 00:17:06.600 moment. There's DeviantArt, sort of. There are a lot of pirate 246 00:17:06.600 --> 00:17:10.360 sites, and there's FAKU, arguably the single platform 247 00:17:10.360 --> 00:17:14.120 that made a go at being the western Internet's go to hentai 248 00:17:14.120 --> 00:17:17.160 platform. But that proved really tough. 249 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.175 You know, I was talking to Jacob Grady and he's 250 00:17:21.175 --> 00:17:24.295 a CEO of Faku. Faku is a subscription platform for hentai 251 00:17:24.295 --> 00:17:28.215 manga. They tried to launch a hentai anime platform and 252 00:17:28.215 --> 00:17:31.015 ultimately could not pull it off. Part of it was licensing 253 00:17:31.015 --> 00:17:33.815 issues, like their licenses expired. It's it's very 254 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:38.060 complicated and expensive to license anime versus licensing 255 00:17:38.060 --> 00:17:40.300 manga, but a lot of it was pirating. 256 00:17:40.300 --> 00:17:42.860 He was like, we just can't compete with pirates. 257 00:17:43.100 --> 00:17:46.860 Why? Why? If something is so popular, has it 258 00:17:46.860 --> 00:17:51.975 proven so difficult to platform? At a moment that platforming 259 00:17:51.975 --> 00:17:57.175 things is what we do on the Internet. It is the hammer of a 260 00:17:57.175 --> 00:17:59.175 network lousy with nails. 261 00:18:01.860 --> 00:18:06.180 We talked to Arly Petty about this. Arly is a researcher of 262 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.860 animation and technology and PhD candidate in the film studies 263 00:18:09.860 --> 00:18:13.460 department at Concordia University Montreal. She wrote 264 00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:18.155 the 2024 paper, the hentai streaming platform wars, 265 00:18:18.315 --> 00:18:21.995 published in porn studies, and had this to say on the uphill 266 00:18:21.995 --> 00:18:25.835 battle hentai has had finding its own platform and running 267 00:18:25.835 --> 00:18:28.955 afoul of governance on more general use platforms. 268 00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:32.080 You're taking a media and you're making it 269 00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:36.400 entered like a new ecology and and also a new infrastructure. 270 00:18:37.040 --> 00:18:40.640 Like, for example, you make a film, like you're a filmmaker 271 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.035 and you're gonna make a film, and then you want your film to 272 00:18:44.035 --> 00:18:48.595 go on YouTube. Well, suddenly there's a lot of restrictions 273 00:18:48.835 --> 00:18:52.115 because YouTube in itself is not just a platform for you to go 274 00:18:52.115 --> 00:18:55.395 and like scream at the town and scream at your fellow citizen. 275 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.200 It's actually like its own space that is its own policies, its 276 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.560 term of uses, its own like, you know, if it's a platform where 277 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:06.400 people can leave comments, it has its own sociability. So you 278 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:07.760 kind of have to make up for this. 279 00:19:13.015 --> 00:19:16.455 Animation has many platforms, of course. But 280 00:19:16.455 --> 00:19:19.255 when the animation is pornographic, it doesn't fit 281 00:19:19.255 --> 00:19:22.695 within the restrictions, policies, and rules of those 282 00:19:22.695 --> 00:19:27.710 platforms. There's a governance mismatch. And pornography has a 283 00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:27.950 lot of 284 00:19:27.950 --> 00:19:31.710 platforms, but when it's animated, it doesn't 285 00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:35.150 fit within the restrictions, policies, and rules of those 286 00:19:35.150 --> 00:19:39.535 platforms. There's a governance mismatch. Take, for instance, 287 00:19:39.535 --> 00:19:43.615 something as base as identity verification, which is required 288 00:19:43.615 --> 00:19:48.575 on Pornhub both to post content and to make the most money from 289 00:19:48.575 --> 00:19:50.975 that content. Here's Morgan again. 290 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.480 Pornhub, to monetize your content on 291 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:57.240 Pornhub, if it's animated, you actually have to send, like, 292 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.640 videos of yourself, like, animating and drawing the 293 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:00.840 content to 294 00:20:00.840 --> 00:20:01.080 prove 295 00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:03.480 that it's you. Yeah. To prove that it's you. 296 00:20:03.785 --> 00:20:06.745 Like, like time lapse work in progress. 297 00:20:06.745 --> 00:20:08.585 Pretty much. Yeah. You have to show that you're 298 00:20:08.585 --> 00:20:11.625 actually, like, making the content to be able to, like, 299 00:20:11.625 --> 00:20:15.785 verify it and monetize it. And if you're monetized, if you're 300 00:20:15.785 --> 00:20:19.090 verified, you can like opt into this additional level of like 301 00:20:19.090 --> 00:20:22.450 protection where if you're going to upload your content 302 00:20:22.450 --> 00:20:25.650 exclusively to Pornhub, you get higher revenue shares and 303 00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:28.610 they'll like send out copyright infringement notices on your 304 00:20:28.610 --> 00:20:32.285 behalf. But animated content can't do that because they can't 305 00:20:32.285 --> 00:20:35.485 verify that someone else is actually uploading the content, 306 00:20:35.485 --> 00:20:36.765 not the original creator. 307 00:20:39.405 --> 00:20:42.205 Orly summarizes an aspect of this difficulty. 308 00:20:42.205 --> 00:20:43.885 Animated pornography, she says 309 00:20:44.205 --> 00:20:46.350 Doesn't answer to this logic of live action 310 00:20:46.350 --> 00:20:49.710 governance. It's not about real people. You cannot ask for 311 00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:55.390 biometrics data for a a cartoon character. You cannot ask for 312 00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:59.715 consent. So, like, that's where struggle is attention. 313 00:21:00.195 --> 00:21:04.035 Not everything can be platformed or not everything can be 314 00:21:04.035 --> 00:21:05.155 platform everywhere. 315 00:21:05.715 --> 00:21:09.075 And in fact, this unwillingness to answer to the 316 00:21:09.075 --> 00:21:13.235 logic of live action governance is part of Hentai's deep 317 00:21:13.235 --> 00:21:13.635 history. 318 00:21:14.130 --> 00:21:17.250 I mean, even hentai itself, like Mhmm. A lot of it 319 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:20.770 is so weird because it was to get around Japan's censorship 320 00:21:20.770 --> 00:21:24.290 laws. Like, the OG tentacle porn, the creator fully 321 00:21:24.290 --> 00:21:27.170 admitted, like, no, they're tentacles because you can't show 322 00:21:27.170 --> 00:21:30.955 penetration with, like, genitalia without getting 323 00:21:30.955 --> 00:21:34.555 censored in Japan. But if you're using tentacles like or 324 00:21:34.555 --> 00:21:37.355 monstrous appendages, what's stopping you? 325 00:21:39.435 --> 00:21:42.315 The difficulty that animated pornography has in 326 00:21:42.315 --> 00:21:46.130 finding its own platform is the result multiple compounding 327 00:21:46.130 --> 00:21:49.650 issues. There are cultural forces like the conflict that 328 00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:52.450 surrounds explicit media generally and conservative 329 00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:55.970 groups working to ban, restrict access to, make it difficult to 330 00:21:55.970 --> 00:21:59.515 make a living from any kind of pornography, They do this by 331 00:21:59.515 --> 00:22:02.795 pressuring both Internet platforms and payment processors 332 00:22:02.795 --> 00:22:07.195 used by those platforms like OnlyFans and Patreon. Then there 333 00:22:07.195 --> 00:22:11.195 are legal and compliance and regulatory challenges. It forced 334 00:22:11.195 --> 00:22:14.740 at the state and federal levels with half measure laws like 335 00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:18.740 SESTA FAFSA, as well as, again, by the businesses and industries 336 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:22.260 required to make and sustain a living in The United States. 337 00:22:22.260 --> 00:22:25.700 Think like banks and stuff, sometimes who have their own 338 00:22:25.700 --> 00:22:29.575 ideas of governance and many of whom are themselves attempting 339 00:22:29.575 --> 00:22:32.935 to remain compliant with unclear, unevenly enforced 340 00:22:32.935 --> 00:22:33.815 regulation. 341 00:22:34.295 --> 00:22:37.975 This, of course, creates an environment where an army of 342 00:22:37.975 --> 00:22:42.670 pirates flourish. And we haven't even gotten to the further 343 00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:46.830 ambivalence that surrounds hentai specifically, a largely 344 00:22:46.830 --> 00:22:50.110 foreign media type that struggles to find a legitimate 345 00:22:50.110 --> 00:22:54.215 place of its own online in the West in the age of platforms 346 00:22:54.215 --> 00:22:58.135 because there's no governance structure into which it neatly 347 00:22:58.215 --> 00:23:06.055 fits. How do we chart these vibes? Unsurprisingly, it seems 348 00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:10.010 media which exists or is pushed towards the edges will be kept 349 00:23:10.010 --> 00:23:13.450 there and won't be proactively furnished with accommodation 350 00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:18.250 regardless even if the audience for that media is sizable. It's 351 00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:21.385 hard to know in which direction even to be cynical. 352 00:23:21.625 --> 00:23:24.905 The promise of profitability, which is great, is not enough to 353 00:23:24.905 --> 00:23:28.745 overcome the subalternity, the suppressedness, the 354 00:23:28.745 --> 00:23:33.380 undergroundedness of this media. As predicted, the political 355 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:37.140 order of the world at large is in some ways created by, but in 356 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:46.820 other ways reinforced by platforms. So why keep trying? 357 00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:50.735 Why even attempt to platform this work? Why not forego this 358 00:23:50.735 --> 00:23:51.935 hassle altogether? 359 00:23:52.335 --> 00:23:55.935 Not everything can be platformed everywhere, Aurelie says. Maybe 360 00:23:55.935 --> 00:24:00.110 not everything can be platformed, period. The answer 361 00:24:00.110 --> 00:24:04.590 to this is what one gets with a platform. 362 00:24:05.390 --> 00:24:08.350 I think people will always use these platforms to 363 00:24:08.350 --> 00:24:13.525 drive audiences to places where their work is safe, whether 364 00:24:13.525 --> 00:24:16.245 that's physical media, whether that's, you know, these kind of 365 00:24:16.245 --> 00:24:20.165 paywalled walled gardens for their content. I don't think a 366 00:24:20.165 --> 00:24:23.765 lot of people have the the opportunity to opt out of these 367 00:24:23.765 --> 00:24:25.685 platforms. Or I don't think that they have that kind of safety 368 00:24:25.685 --> 00:24:29.390 net to totally opt out. But I think that a lot of artists are 369 00:24:29.390 --> 00:24:34.270 just making it work by, you know, trying to have as many 370 00:24:34.270 --> 00:24:37.470 avenues for attention for their work as possible, and then 371 00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:40.830 having like a safe place for their work to actually exist. 372 00:24:41.845 --> 00:24:45.925 The platform here becomes an island, not something 373 00:24:45.925 --> 00:24:49.685 which infinitely extends, not a place from which to build and 374 00:24:49.685 --> 00:24:55.045 expand, but a place with an undefeatable limit, a bounded 375 00:24:55.045 --> 00:24:59.390 territory that is nonetheless connected as all things are 376 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:05.550 online. What platforms offer is convenience above all else. 377 00:25:05.870 --> 00:25:09.390 Everything under one earl, an audience, communication, 378 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:13.065 community, and sometimes if you're lucky, a paycheck. That 379 00:25:13.065 --> 00:25:16.185 is until your own politics or those of your work challenge or 380 00:25:16.185 --> 00:25:19.225 transgress the political order the platform attempts to uphold. 381 00:25:19.705 --> 00:25:24.040 Media at the edges may push to the center, but only so far 382 00:25:24.040 --> 00:25:28.600 until the winds of governance, the tides of vibe push them back 383 00:25:28.600 --> 00:25:29.560 to the periphery. 384 00:25:29.560 --> 00:25:35.000 This is the constant dance of moderation that I think we all 385 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:41.215 feel online even if we are not fans of or creators of this kind 386 00:25:41.215 --> 00:25:42.095 of media. 387 00:25:44.015 --> 00:25:47.535 How can you be as normative as you can be so 388 00:25:47.535 --> 00:25:50.975 nobody is gonna look too close into you? I was talking to this 389 00:25:50.975 --> 00:25:55.150 content creator who suddenly, yeah, Patreon decided that his 390 00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:59.790 content was too problematic. One step too far, but instead of 391 00:25:59.790 --> 00:26:03.630 having a conversation with him, they just cancel his accounts 392 00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:06.830 and it's his entire income that disappear. As long as we don't 393 00:26:06.830 --> 00:26:11.255 have like official platform that are actually have a model to pay 394 00:26:11.255 --> 00:26:13.975 content creators who do animation, you know, or like 395 00:26:13.975 --> 00:26:17.735 partnership with studios. It's it's always gonna like Paris, 396 00:26:17.735 --> 00:26:20.535 Paris is always gonna be a very attractive form of it. 397 00:26:24.410 --> 00:26:27.130 So what comes after the platform? It could 398 00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:30.010 always be more platforms iterating on the design until 399 00:26:30.010 --> 00:26:33.610 asymmetrical aims and the economic incentives balance out 400 00:26:33.610 --> 00:26:36.525 to form a governance paradigm that doesn't or doesn't 401 00:26:36.525 --> 00:26:42.525 unilaterally, recreate existing political hierarchies. Or maybe 402 00:26:42.525 --> 00:26:47.805 after platforms, we'll find what was here before, the rest of the 403 00:26:48.060 --> 00:26:51.740 Internet, reached via a breadcrumb trail of links and 404 00:26:51.740 --> 00:26:56.620 hints and suggestions wherever people congregate, platforms and 405 00:26:56.620 --> 00:27:03.105 not. I think here about the idea that post modernism names not an 406 00:27:03.105 --> 00:27:07.665 end to modernism, but a confrontation with the problems 407 00:27:07.745 --> 00:27:13.425 of modernism. Post meaning crisis of, not after. 408 00:27:14.065 --> 00:27:18.980 And so perhaps a post platform internet names an epoch where 409 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:22.260 there is a wide scale recognition of the shortcomings 410 00:27:22.260 --> 00:27:30.580 of platforms while they continue to persist. In a way, the 411 00:27:30.580 --> 00:27:34.035 difficulty of hentai finding its own platform provides a kind of 412 00:27:34.035 --> 00:27:39.315 hope to any and every other artist, writer, media maker, 413 00:27:39.955 --> 00:27:44.595 person, people everywhere whose work and lives run afoul of only 414 00:27:44.595 --> 00:27:49.340 ever increasingly skittish platforms, kowtowing to brands, 415 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:52.300 advertisers, and governments. 416 00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:57.900 So I went into this hentai episode thinking that I 417 00:27:57.900 --> 00:28:01.020 would be telling the story about like some weird curvy dudes and 418 00:28:01.020 --> 00:28:04.125 their tentacle porn. What I actually found on talking to 419 00:28:04.125 --> 00:28:07.165 people involved in the industry and also fans is that there is 420 00:28:07.165 --> 00:28:11.405 actually, like, a real love for experimentation in hentai. And a 421 00:28:11.405 --> 00:28:14.365 lot of that is because a lot of people felt very othered. A lot 422 00:28:14.365 --> 00:28:17.450 of people are queer and didn't fit into the mold anyway. 423 00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:17.770 Yeah. 424 00:28:17.770 --> 00:28:20.490 I was really surprised, finding out how queer 425 00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:25.210 and how provocative hentai really is, which makes sense. I 426 00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:28.570 mean, queer art is always going to be provocative. This industry 427 00:28:28.570 --> 00:28:32.515 is more than just some dudes trying to get off to cartoon 428 00:28:32.515 --> 00:28:35.875 girls. It's really it it really is a space to experiment and 429 00:28:36.115 --> 00:28:39.235 explore like your relationship to the world around you. 430 00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:54.620 To hear more about this side of the story, 431 00:28:54.620 --> 00:28:59.980 please go listen to the 05/21/2025 episode of close all 432 00:28:59.980 --> 00:29:04.925 tabs, which you can find at npr.org, k q e d Org, and 433 00:29:04.925 --> 00:29:09.725 wherever you get your podcasts, just search for close all tabs. 434 00:29:09.965 --> 00:29:12.765 I talked to Morgan in more detail about the regulatory 435 00:29:12.765 --> 00:29:16.820 environment which keeps explicit media suppressed and she talks 436 00:29:16.820 --> 00:29:20.500 at length about hentai's cultural position. It's a great 437 00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:23.940 episode. Please go listen. Thanks to Morgan Sung, 438 00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:27.635 Christopher Agusa, Maya Cueva, and Jen Chen for co producing 439 00:29:27.635 --> 00:29:30.195 this segment with us and inviting me to talk with them on 440 00:29:30.195 --> 00:29:30.995 close all tabs. 441 00:29:30.995 --> 00:29:35.235 It was a huge pleasure and thanks also to Arly Petit for 442 00:29:35.235 --> 00:29:38.435 chatting with us. We'll put links to her work in the show 443 00:29:38.435 --> 00:29:52.790 notes. There were easily a dozen or more ideas that didn't make 444 00:29:52.790 --> 00:29:56.150 its way into this segment. I feel like we've just barely 445 00:29:56.150 --> 00:30:00.605 sketched an outline of what's possible to be said here. Like, 446 00:30:00.605 --> 00:30:03.405 didn't get to, how does the position of being a hentai 447 00:30:03.405 --> 00:30:07.085 artist online right now possibly predict the position of all 448 00:30:07.085 --> 00:30:10.285 digital creators in a post platform Internet? 449 00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:15.060 How do the governance structures of platforms inform or shape 450 00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:19.140 wider culture, if they are in fact the powerful arbiters of 451 00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:23.395 popularity that so many of them claim to be and that so many of 452 00:30:23.395 --> 00:30:27.395 us, I think, give them credit as being. What does creative 453 00:30:27.395 --> 00:30:30.595 community look like on an internet defined by separate but 454 00:30:30.595 --> 00:30:35.475 connected websites versus platforms where, you know, if 455 00:30:35.475 --> 00:30:39.890 not everybody, then big communities of people gather. I 456 00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:43.410 would love to hear your thoughts on the post platform Internet 457 00:30:43.490 --> 00:30:48.450 and what explicit media might predict of its arrival. Related 458 00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:51.650 to these ideas or not, you can email us, leave us a voice memo, 459 00:30:51.645 --> 00:30:54.605 all the ways you can get ahold of us are in the show notes. 460 00:31:30.465 --> 00:31:34.080 So Avery Dame Griff, is this new version of 461 00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:37.600 the bill meaningfully different from the one that died last fall 462 00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:40.960 in which supporters said it would protect children by 463 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.600 forcing platforms to deal with, quote, unquote, harms that they 464 00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:47.395 faced? But critics were saying of it that it would have given 465 00:31:47.395 --> 00:31:51.075 overly broad license for politically motivated targeting 466 00:31:51.075 --> 00:31:55.155 of marginalized groups. Have the authors addressed those 467 00:31:55.155 --> 00:31:57.395 criticisms at all in this new bill? 468 00:31:58.630 --> 00:31:59.510 Avery Dame-Griff: Not really. 469 00:32:17.105 --> 00:32:18.945 What do you think is the oldest piece of 470 00:32:18.945 --> 00:32:19.985 clothing you have? 471 00:32:21.585 --> 00:32:25.105 Oh my god. That's such a good question. I 472 00:32:25.105 --> 00:32:29.360 have a pair of pants. I have a pair of pants that I inherited 473 00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.440 from my grandfather when he passed away. And they're a pair 474 00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:37.120 of perfectly good jeans and I wore them a whole bunch. 475 00:32:37.520 --> 00:32:42.935 And then they got a tear in them And I have sewn them back up and 476 00:32:42.935 --> 00:32:46.935 patched them. And it's a little unsightly, but I still wear them 477 00:32:46.935 --> 00:32:50.055 when I'm not, like, going to work or anything because it's a 478 00:32:50.135 --> 00:32:55.980 it there is sentimental value in that pair of pants. So I and I 479 00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:59.340 don't know how long he had them before I started wearing them, 480 00:32:59.340 --> 00:33:01.820 but it they're they're they're pretty old. 481 00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:06.060 That's Boone Ashworth. He's a staff writer at 482 00:33:06.060 --> 00:33:10.575 Wired's Gear Desk. A lot of his reporting covers sustainability 483 00:33:10.575 --> 00:33:14.095 and repairability, and it's those two things that made me 484 00:33:14.095 --> 00:33:18.335 want to talk to him for this segment. I've been curious how 485 00:33:18.335 --> 00:33:22.160 the ongoing tariff situation in The United States is going to 486 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:27.040 affect the way we buy clothing online. And by that, I really 487 00:33:27.040 --> 00:33:30.720 mean on specific Chinese based sites like Shein. 488 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.480 This Black Friday, shop crazy low prices on Shein 489 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.335 and see why Shein is America's top fashion destination. 490 00:33:42.815 --> 00:33:45.295 From the jump, the Trump administration has 491 00:33:45.295 --> 00:33:49.295 been constantly moving the goalposts on its tariff plans on 492 00:33:49.295 --> 00:33:53.790 Chinese goods entering The US. Back in February, the goal was a 493 00:33:53.790 --> 00:33:59.790 10% tariff across the board. In March, it changed to 20%. On 494 00:33:59.790 --> 00:34:04.750 what Trump ridiculously called Liberation Day on April 2, his 495 00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:09.365 administration tacked on an additional 34% tax on Chinese 496 00:34:09.365 --> 00:34:13.845 products. Then, a few weeks later, the administration 497 00:34:13.845 --> 00:34:19.445 announced that it will actually impose a 125% tariff on Chinese 498 00:34:19.445 --> 00:34:21.285 products effective immediately. 499 00:34:22.740 --> 00:34:26.820 As of me writing this segment, there's tariffs ranging from 500 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:34.435 that 125% to 145%, or a package fee of a hundred dollars. But 501 00:34:34.435 --> 00:34:38.755 that's also going to change on June 1 when the package fee is 502 00:34:38.755 --> 00:34:41.235 set to double to $200. 503 00:34:41.235 --> 00:34:43.155 We've done a lot of reporting here on Wired about 504 00:34:43.155 --> 00:34:47.235 how just it's going to be, you know, months later is when these 505 00:34:47.235 --> 00:34:49.350 effects are really going to start kicking in. I mean, you're 506 00:34:49.350 --> 00:34:53.750 you're seeing price increases now across the board. But it 507 00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:56.870 will be a bit before, you know, shelves are empty if we get to 508 00:34:56.870 --> 00:35:00.230 that point. But we are rapidly approaching it. 509 00:35:00.645 --> 00:35:03.925 And as these changes happen, a lot of Chinese 510 00:35:03.925 --> 00:35:07.365 companies have tried to swerve the worst of these tariffs in a 511 00:35:07.365 --> 00:35:11.525 few ways, such as shipping products like iPhones to India 512 00:35:11.525 --> 00:35:15.400 in order to get a more favorable rate, or relying on what's 513 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:17.880 already stored in US based facilities. 514 00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:21.240 All of these retailers have large stockpiles, 515 00:35:21.240 --> 00:35:24.920 like months worth of stockpiles of whatever products they're 516 00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:28.155 trying to sell that they're probably gonna be able to go 517 00:35:28.155 --> 00:35:31.675 through for a little bit of time. I think as we get closer 518 00:35:31.675 --> 00:35:34.235 to the end of the year is when we're gonna start really seeing 519 00:35:34.235 --> 00:35:39.435 things not be able to be produced in quite the same way 520 00:35:39.515 --> 00:35:43.820 if tariffs are still at the levels they are. 521 00:35:44.060 --> 00:35:47.900 For consumers, the vibe in response to the 522 00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:52.700 tariffs, at least on my feeds, has been buy now before it's too 523 00:35:52.700 --> 00:35:57.355 late. And a lot of the panic I've been interested in centers 524 00:35:57.355 --> 00:36:01.035 specifically around fast fashion brands. 525 00:36:01.515 --> 00:36:04.635 I'm not typically one to crash out on TikTok, but 526 00:36:04.875 --> 00:36:11.680 what do you mean I have to pay $277.90 in duties on an outfit 527 00:36:11.680 --> 00:36:13.360 that's a hundred and $70. 528 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.520 The tariffs are shaking and I'm really not 529 00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:15.920 kidding. 530 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:17.600 I get it that we're not supposed to shop at Sheen 531 00:36:17.600 --> 00:36:20.160 anymore. I get it. But where am I supposed to go for cheap 532 00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:22.400 clothes now? Where am I gonna go? Amazon? 533 00:36:22.720 --> 00:36:26.505 Is that much better? I can't shop at Zara. I can't shop at 534 00:36:26.505 --> 00:36:30.425 Revolve all the time. It is too expensive. So where do I go just 535 00:36:30.425 --> 00:36:31.705 for some cheap cute clothes? 536 00:36:31.705 --> 00:36:32.665 Make it make sense. 537 00:36:37.650 --> 00:36:40.290 Shein and other budget sites like it, such as 538 00:36:40.290 --> 00:36:44.530 TEMU, have previously benefited from the de minimis exception, a 539 00:36:44.530 --> 00:36:48.130 tariff loophole that allows goods that cost less than $800 540 00:36:48.130 --> 00:36:53.255 to come into The US duty free. And that's great for a brand 541 00:36:53.255 --> 00:36:57.575 like Shein, where you can basically buy anything for a 542 00:36:57.575 --> 00:37:03.815 price that is unbelievably low. Like, unnervingly, I am begging 543 00:37:03.815 --> 00:37:07.070 you to think about why this is so cheap in the first place low. 544 00:37:07.790 --> 00:37:10.910 The cheapness of Sheehan's clothing has also made it 545 00:37:10.910 --> 00:37:14.990 virtually essential to the online trend cycle, especially 546 00:37:14.990 --> 00:37:20.245 during the peak of micro trends. With prices so cheap, you can 547 00:37:20.245 --> 00:37:24.885 really try on whatever style is in right now without worrying 548 00:37:24.885 --> 00:37:27.765 about investing in clothing that might be out of fashion in a 549 00:37:27.765 --> 00:37:28.645 matter of weeks. 550 00:37:29.125 --> 00:37:33.400 Want to put together a mob wife aesthetic fit? Great. Because 551 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:37.080 you can buy a floor length bodycon dress in cheetah print 552 00:37:37.080 --> 00:37:40.920 on Shein with a purse to match for the low, low price of 553 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:46.600 $18.99. If I type in office siren into the Shein search bar, 554 00:37:46.925 --> 00:37:52.445 one of the top results is a $15.23 2 piece set titled, 555 00:37:53.725 --> 00:37:57.565 Cosmina two Pieces Elegant Outfit for Business Casual Women 556 00:37:57.565 --> 00:38:02.040 Office Siren Style Similar to Influencer Design, coquette old 557 00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:07.640 money style sexy. There is no presumption that the clothes you 558 00:38:07.640 --> 00:38:12.280 order from Shein will be high quality or even necessarily look 559 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:13.880 like the pictures online. 560 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:18.755 The point is the price. Regardless of the trend du jour, 561 00:38:18.995 --> 00:38:23.715 Shein has something for you at a price so unimaginably affordable 562 00:38:23.715 --> 00:38:28.195 that it almost feels ridiculous not to buy it. And if something 563 00:38:28.195 --> 00:38:32.450 falls apart, you can just buy another pair of $9 Palazzo pants 564 00:38:32.450 --> 00:38:36.690 and call it a day. It encourages a shopping experience that is 565 00:38:36.690 --> 00:38:41.090 all about buying new, buying cheap, and buying a lot. 566 00:38:41.475 --> 00:38:43.795 The whole promise of these sites was, you 567 00:38:43.795 --> 00:38:46.835 know, buying something so incredibly cheap and feeling 568 00:38:46.835 --> 00:38:49.235 like you, you know, shopping like a billionaire. You're 569 00:38:49.235 --> 00:38:53.235 you're getting these incredible deals. I think if that goes away 570 00:38:53.235 --> 00:38:56.275 a little bit, then just that sentiment, that feeling of, oh, 571 00:38:56.275 --> 00:39:00.320 I'm getting this crazy deal for all of these clothes will go 572 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.880 away. And then I think that kind of just like takes away a little 573 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.520 bit of the value prop for sites like this. So I don't I I I 574 00:39:07.520 --> 00:39:11.040 think that prices might not skyrocket all that much quite 575 00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:15.665 yet, But I don't know if they need to get all that much higher 576 00:39:15.665 --> 00:39:18.225 before people start to feel the pinch a little bit more. 577 00:39:18.385 --> 00:39:21.265 And if that happens, where will people go? 578 00:39:22.065 --> 00:39:25.200 You know, back Amazon. I mean, maybe we maybe 579 00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:28.320 we all pull a Macklemore and go to the thrift shop. Sorry. 580 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.680 But I mean, yeah, that is kind of what's 581 00:39:37.680 --> 00:39:40.935 happening on some corners of the Internet. Beyond your brick and 582 00:39:40.935 --> 00:39:44.935 mortar vintage stores, resale apps like Depop and Poshmark 583 00:39:44.935 --> 00:39:49.575 have been exploding in popularity. Last year, Depop 584 00:39:49.575 --> 00:39:55.490 grossed $85,000,000 in revenue. And you can actually buy a lot 585 00:39:55.490 --> 00:39:59.490 of Sheehan clothing on Depop. And it's still, like, single 586 00:39:59.490 --> 00:40:01.170 digits price point cheap. 587 00:40:01.570 --> 00:40:05.490 So sure. Yeah. We should all be buying secondhand more in 588 00:40:05.490 --> 00:40:09.195 general. It's usually more economical. It's a nice way to 589 00:40:09.195 --> 00:40:12.155 avoid contributing to the overproduction of new clothing. 590 00:40:12.875 --> 00:40:17.035 It's also a much more intentional way of shopping. On 591 00:40:17.035 --> 00:40:21.130 Shein, using their website is like scrolling TikTok, an 592 00:40:21.130 --> 00:40:24.090 endless list of garments that you can just page through 593 00:40:24.090 --> 00:40:28.570 forever, add to cart, and purchase without really thinking 594 00:40:28.570 --> 00:40:32.250 about what you're even buying. It creates this online shopping 595 00:40:32.250 --> 00:40:37.105 landscape that overvalues the performance of having stuff at 596 00:40:37.105 --> 00:40:41.345 the cost of any individual piece of clothing. A single pair of 597 00:40:41.345 --> 00:40:46.065 pants isn't special in this ecosystem. Having the ability to 598 00:40:46.065 --> 00:40:49.345 buy 12 pairs of pants is the thrill you get here. 599 00:40:50.100 --> 00:40:55.860 Volume is the name of the game. The people I saw worrying about 600 00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.460 the possible price hikes on Shein were overwhelmingly people 601 00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:04.660 who make haul content. And the emotional payoff of making those 602 00:41:04.275 --> 00:41:08.995 videos doesn't come from finding that one dress you love. It's 603 00:41:08.995 --> 00:41:14.115 about having this huge bag of stuff that's trendy right now 604 00:41:14.675 --> 00:41:17.955 because that's also crucial to this performance based shopping 605 00:41:17.955 --> 00:41:23.770 experience. On Shein, you can buy an entire closet's worth of 606 00:41:23.770 --> 00:41:27.690 office siren inspired clothing at the drop of a hat, instantly 607 00:41:27.690 --> 00:41:32.330 cementing you as an authority on that trend or whatever trend is 608 00:41:32.330 --> 00:41:33.290 hot right now. 609 00:41:33.770 --> 00:41:38.335 And trendy in this context just means single use clothing 610 00:41:38.495 --> 00:41:42.095 destined to go out of style and be doomed for the donation pile. 611 00:41:42.335 --> 00:41:50.450 More clothes for the trash island in the Pacific Ocean. So 612 00:41:50.450 --> 00:41:54.530 what happens is this feedback loop of trends and content 613 00:41:54.530 --> 00:41:58.050 around shopping that is built on this foundation where clothing 614 00:41:58.050 --> 00:42:01.650 is just as important to you as how much of it you're able to 615 00:42:01.650 --> 00:42:05.315 get. But with the incoming tariffs threatening to disrupt 616 00:42:05.315 --> 00:42:09.795 this ecosystem of mass purchasing, I think something's 617 00:42:09.795 --> 00:42:16.835 gotta give. I wanna answer the question I asked Boone at the 618 00:42:16.835 --> 00:42:17.555 top of this segment. 619 00:42:18.030 --> 00:42:21.630 What's the oldest piece of clothing you own? I do have some 620 00:42:21.630 --> 00:42:24.750 hand me downs that are older than I am, but the oldest item 621 00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:29.630 that I bought are a pair of plain black Doc Marten leather 622 00:42:29.630 --> 00:42:35.025 boots. I got them when I was 19, and they're perfect. They've 623 00:42:35.025 --> 00:42:38.385 traveled around the world with me. They've been waterlogged and 624 00:42:38.385 --> 00:42:43.025 caked with mud and dust and left scarred and nicked by who even 625 00:42:43.025 --> 00:42:43.745 knows what. 626 00:42:43.905 --> 00:42:48.090 I've replaced the laces multiple times. And honestly, I should 627 00:42:48.090 --> 00:42:51.770 probably do that again soon. This winter, I finally resoled 628 00:42:51.770 --> 00:42:56.490 them. They're my favorite shoes. They carry a lot of sentimental 629 00:42:56.490 --> 00:42:57.450 weight for me. 630 00:42:57.930 --> 00:43:01.530 And with the deal's forward mentality of mass ordering from 631 00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:08.095 Shein, you just won't get that. There's no sentimentality there. 632 00:43:08.495 --> 00:43:12.175 And I just wonder if in the midst of these conversations 633 00:43:12.175 --> 00:43:15.760 about tariffs and the changing costs of everything, if what 634 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.920 might be worth looking at is how we emotionally relate to the 635 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:25.120 clothing we buy. Or frankly, the clothes we already have in the 636 00:43:25.120 --> 00:43:35.955 first place. So this dovetails quite nicely into something 637 00:43:35.955 --> 00:43:39.875 you've written about before, which is the right to repair. 638 00:43:40.035 --> 00:43:46.720 Could you give me a sense of what that factors in to dealing 639 00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:49.040 with the ongoing tariff situation? 640 00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:53.360 Yeah. So so the right to repair is sort of the 641 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.365 broad term for a general movement of people who want it 642 00:43:57.365 --> 00:44:01.045 to be easier to fix the stuff that you already own. Cars are a 643 00:44:01.045 --> 00:44:03.285 great example of this. If your windshield breaks, you don't 644 00:44:03.285 --> 00:44:06.405 replace the whole car. You get to replace just the windshield. 645 00:44:06.405 --> 00:44:10.405 And, yes, that costs money, but it's cheaper than buying a brand 646 00:44:10.405 --> 00:44:15.490 new vehicle. So the idea is kind of having that, for all the 647 00:44:15.490 --> 00:44:18.530 devices that we own, whether it's computers, smartphones, you 648 00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:21.010 know, smart watches, heck, even clothes. 649 00:44:21.250 --> 00:44:24.985 When I resold my Docs, it wasn't cheap, but it 650 00:44:24.985 --> 00:44:28.665 was definitely cheaper than buying a new pair of boots and 651 00:44:28.665 --> 00:44:34.185 breaking them in. Plus, I could never replace them because, I 652 00:44:34.185 --> 00:44:36.825 mean, I did spend a lot of time breaking them in, but also 653 00:44:36.825 --> 00:44:41.950 because they're special. I don't want to replace them. Following 654 00:44:41.950 --> 00:44:44.990 the conversation around the tariffs and clothing in 655 00:44:44.990 --> 00:44:49.470 particular, I've been wondering if repairing instead of buying 656 00:44:49.870 --> 00:44:55.345 could become, I mean, the trend du jour. Or better yet, break us 657 00:44:55.345 --> 00:44:59.105 out of the trend dominated shopping cycle entirely. 658 00:44:59.665 --> 00:45:03.745 But that also goes completely against the kind of shopping 659 00:45:03.745 --> 00:45:07.400 that Sheehan and its cohort of sites have built their entire 660 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:08.760 empires upon. 661 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.400 You know, I guess what value you find in the 662 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:16.200 clothes that you are wearing will will change based on, you 663 00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:19.080 know, how much new stuff you're able to buy, what the options 664 00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:23.365 are. And I also think it's gonna depend on the product too. 665 00:45:23.365 --> 00:45:26.085 Right? It's gonna depend on if it's something that is easily 666 00:45:26.085 --> 00:45:31.125 repairable. Something that you already got cheap might not be 667 00:45:31.125 --> 00:45:33.830 the best quality and so it might just not last longer. 668 00:45:33.830 --> 00:45:36.070 And that's that's the problem with something like that. 669 00:45:36.470 --> 00:45:39.830 That's the thing. Right? Like, is it even 670 00:45:39.830 --> 00:45:43.990 worth it to try to mend your paper thin miniskirt you got for 671 00:45:43.990 --> 00:45:48.405 $3 when you could just buy another one, even for a slightly 672 00:45:48.405 --> 00:45:52.565 more expensive price. And that's the lure of Shein. Right? 673 00:45:52.805 --> 00:45:57.365 It's so easy. It's so cheap. It's like breathing. You don't 674 00:45:57.365 --> 00:46:02.690 have to think about it. But I do think there's merit here in 675 00:46:02.690 --> 00:46:06.370 thinking beyond what a site can sell us. 676 00:46:06.450 --> 00:46:10.530 And instead, consider how we interact with what we buy in a 677 00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:14.745 way that isn't about the promise of volume, but instead the 678 00:46:14.745 --> 00:46:19.305 promise of longevity. Where value is not determined by how 679 00:46:19.305 --> 00:46:23.305 much you buy, it's about having an active relationship with the 680 00:46:23.305 --> 00:46:27.300 clothing that you have. Whether you buy it or got it in a 681 00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:31.380 clothing swap or had it handed down to you by a parent, looking 682 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.740 at clothing through a lens of longevity encourages you to 683 00:46:34.740 --> 00:46:38.180 think about what garments you actually want to come along with 684 00:46:38.180 --> 00:46:43.145 you as you live your life. It's about what clothing has real 685 00:46:43.305 --> 00:46:49.705 emotional value to you. Now, if I bought that Cosmina two pieces 686 00:46:49.705 --> 00:46:53.865 elegant outfits for business casual women suit set from Shein 687 00:46:53.865 --> 00:46:58.010 and the stitching fell apart, I wouldn't care about it because I 688 00:46:58.010 --> 00:47:00.810 know I never cared that much about it anyway. 689 00:47:01.290 --> 00:47:05.210 But if my beloved pair of Docs needed new laces, I wouldn't 690 00:47:05.210 --> 00:47:08.490 think twice about replacing them. If the leather started to 691 00:47:08.490 --> 00:47:11.690 crack, I would learn what kind of wax I needed to condition it, 692 00:47:12.145 --> 00:47:16.065 and I would do that because they're important to me. They're 693 00:47:16.065 --> 00:47:26.440 worth mending. And listen, I genuinely don't know if I really 694 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:30.680 believe that the tariffs are somehow going to magic away 695 00:47:30.680 --> 00:47:34.520 these fast fashion heavy hitters that openly use sweatshop labor 696 00:47:34.520 --> 00:47:37.735 and produce clothing that is destined for a landfill. That 697 00:47:37.735 --> 00:47:40.375 just doesn't seem realistic. 698 00:47:40.935 --> 00:47:44.775 But I do think that right now, we have a chance to look more 699 00:47:44.775 --> 00:47:48.775 closely at our online shopping ecosystem and ask ourselves if 700 00:47:48.775 --> 00:47:55.130 it's even working for us. Buying more and more clothing chains 701 00:47:55.130 --> 00:47:59.370 you to a trend cycle that is always moving faster than you. 702 00:47:59.610 --> 00:48:04.490 In that kind of system, more is just never going to be enough. 703 00:48:04.970 --> 00:48:11.095 You are never going to catch up. And maybe it's time to just stop 704 00:48:11.095 --> 00:48:11.975 chasing. 705 00:48:12.215 --> 00:48:14.455 There's a lot about our society that makes you 706 00:48:14.455 --> 00:48:17.015 feel like you are not good enough because you don't have 707 00:48:17.015 --> 00:48:20.300 the newest thing. Right? I mean, that's just that's just 708 00:48:20.300 --> 00:48:25.500 capitalism. That's just how the the system works. And, you know, 709 00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:26.620 sometimes they're right. 710 00:48:26.620 --> 00:48:30.700 Sometimes you do need a newer thing. It's okay. But also, I 711 00:48:30.700 --> 00:48:36.415 think this gets us into a space where if we have to deal with 712 00:48:36.495 --> 00:48:39.855 these increases in prices and all these tariffs as nuts as 713 00:48:39.855 --> 00:48:45.215 this whole thing is, if we can kind of take control of it in a 714 00:48:45.215 --> 00:48:51.120 way by keeping control of fixing our own stuff, I think that's a 715 00:48:51.120 --> 00:48:54.720 more positive way to look at it than just kind of wallowing in 716 00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:57.120 the anxiety as I was doing earlier, you know. 717 00:49:06.125 --> 00:49:07.805 Boone, thank you so much for chatting with 718 00:49:07.805 --> 00:49:10.845 me. Where else can people find more of your work? 719 00:49:11.165 --> 00:49:14.045 You can find my work on wired.com. If you got a 720 00:49:14.045 --> 00:49:18.150 tip for me, hit me up at boon dot ten on signal. 721 00:49:23.910 --> 00:49:27.350 Before I go, I'd love to ask you the question 722 00:49:27.350 --> 00:49:31.575 that started segment. What's the oldest piece of clothing you 723 00:49:31.575 --> 00:49:35.495 own? What's worth keeping around? The links for how to 724 00:49:35.495 --> 00:49:37.335 reach us are in the show notes. 725 00:50:12.625 --> 00:50:13.185 Avery, 726 00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:16.410 what does the reintroduction of COSA, the kids 727 00:50:16.410 --> 00:50:18.410 online safety act, what does it mean? 728 00:50:18.490 --> 00:50:22.890 Avery Dame-Griff: Well, COSA is basically just as bad a bill as 729 00:50:22.890 --> 00:50:27.065 the last time it was introduced, and it still likely won't 730 00:50:27.065 --> 00:50:30.105 effectively solve any of the problems it claims to address. 731 00:50:30.825 --> 00:50:33.065 These are things that are complicated. They're 732 00:50:33.065 --> 00:50:35.785 infrastructural and social issues, and they require a lot 733 00:50:35.785 --> 00:50:39.225 more than government regulation, but especially not regulation 734 00:50:39.225 --> 00:50:42.680 that looks like COSA. Because even with some of the changes 735 00:50:42.680 --> 00:50:46.200 that the sponsor co sponsors have added, other political 736 00:50:46.200 --> 00:50:48.760 actors like the Heritage Foundation have already made it 737 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:53.720 clear that they aim to use this regulation as a way and quoting 738 00:50:53.720 --> 00:50:59.155 from them to guard kids against, again, quoting, from the harms 739 00:50:59.155 --> 00:51:03.155 of transgender content. And this is an argument made by Evan 740 00:51:03.155 --> 00:51:06.035 Greer of of fight from the future, and I agree with it. 741 00:51:06.450 --> 00:51:09.410 As she's pointed out, this focus on kind of content neutral 742 00:51:09.410 --> 00:51:12.610 elements we see in COSA, things like algorithmic 743 00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:17.410 recommendations, they can still be used to because the bill 744 00:51:17.410 --> 00:51:20.770 focuses on it to restrict access to a variety of content, 745 00:51:21.205 --> 00:51:26.005 including LGBTQ content on the grounds that this content makes 746 00:51:26.005 --> 00:51:29.765 youth depressed or anxious. I'm also sort of concerned about the 747 00:51:29.765 --> 00:51:32.965 possibilities that platforms will just engage in anticipatory 748 00:51:32.965 --> 00:51:37.445 compliance again by making it harder for youth to encounter 749 00:51:36.750 --> 00:51:40.910 anything that could fall under this duty of care provision or 750 00:51:40.910 --> 00:51:44.030 sort of, like, trigger any of the elements of it. And we see 751 00:51:44.030 --> 00:51:47.230 this, like, with recent rollbacks of protections related 752 00:51:47.230 --> 00:51:51.870 to sexuality and gender identity by YouTube and meta platforms 753 00:51:52.365 --> 00:51:55.405 suggests that they're willing to shift their policies and 754 00:51:55.405 --> 00:52:00.365 practices in ways that are demonstrably worse for their 755 00:52:00.365 --> 00:52:04.125 queer and trans users, but will appease those in power. 756 00:52:04.525 --> 00:52:08.580 Ultimately, COSA doesn't solve the problems it claims to. It's 757 00:52:08.580 --> 00:52:12.820 likely just gonna become a weapon to push LGBTQ folks 758 00:52:13.140 --> 00:52:15.060 further out of public life. 759 00:52:15.620 --> 00:52:17.380 Even if it fails though 760 00:52:17.700 --> 00:52:18.340 Avery Dame-Griff: Mhmm. Do you 761 00:52:18.340 --> 00:52:20.340 think this is the last time that we see 762 00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.780 legislation like this proposed? 763 00:52:22.205 --> 00:52:24.125 Avery Dame-Griff: Oh, absolutely not. 764 00:52:43.940 --> 00:52:46.660 That is the show we have for you this week. We're 765 00:52:46.660 --> 00:52:49.860 gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, June 4. I'm 766 00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:52.505 gonna keep it simple. $4 a month, you can become a 767 00:52:52.505 --> 00:52:55.945 Neverpost member and that helps us continue to make the show. Do 768 00:52:55.945 --> 00:52:57.705 we give you things for that $4? 769 00:52:57.705 --> 00:53:01.225 Yes. To be honest, the media that you get in return pales in 770 00:53:01.225 --> 00:53:04.665 comparison to the fact that you are just helping us make the 771 00:53:04.665 --> 00:53:08.460 show. We're very small and have managed to make this show what 772 00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:13.180 it is with almost no money, so imagine what we could do with 773 00:53:13.180 --> 00:53:16.620 more support. Neverpo. S t to become a member. 774 00:53:16.620 --> 00:53:20.380 Support your local audio first independent media and technology 775 00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:23.975 criticism collective. Are we a collective? Can we call 776 00:53:23.975 --> 00:53:26.375 ourselves a collective? I'm doing it. Collective. 777 00:53:30.455 --> 00:53:33.655 Neverpost's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 778 00:53:33.655 --> 00:53:36.590 mysterious doctor first name, last name. Our senior producer 779 00:53:36.590 --> 00:53:39.790 is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer. 780 00:53:39.790 --> 00:53:52.595 And the show's host, that's me, is Mike Grignetta. Luminary of 781 00:53:52.595 --> 00:53:55.955 the systems of pleasure, toddlers' tea time in the Noah's 782 00:53:55.955 --> 00:53:56.515 Ark. 783 00:53:56.835 --> 00:54:01.715 Fog, frost, and thaw for clothes of velvet, for horses. 784 00:54:02.035 --> 00:54:07.810 Petrarch's inkstand ozonated sun lounges. Hail then, purveyor of 785 00:54:07.810 --> 00:54:13.970 shrimps. Almost indecency united in a joint and individual 786 00:54:13.970 --> 00:54:20.985 purpose, forth to fresh fields and pastures new. Excerpt of A 787 00:54:20.985 --> 00:54:23.465 Social History by Kim Rosenfield. 788 00:54:24.105 --> 00:54:27.385 Neverpost is a production of charts and leisure and is 789 00:54:27.385 --> 00:54:29.385 distributed by Radiotopia.