WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.765 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13.765 --> 00:00:16.325 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host Mike 3 00:00:16.325 --> 00:00:21.365 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Wednesday, 01/28/2026 at 4 00:00:21.365 --> 00:00:28.540 09:47AM eastern, and we have a considered show for you today. 5 00:00:29.500 --> 00:00:33.340 This episode marks the first in a change to the way that we are 6 00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:37.020 producing and releasing Neverpost, which you can hear 7 00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:42.015 more about in detail in our state of the pod upload from a 8 00:00:42.015 --> 00:00:46.495 few weeks ago. But the long and short is in this news episode, 9 00:00:46.655 --> 00:00:51.135 me, Hans, and Georgia take a look at the saga of the sale of 10 00:00:51.135 --> 00:00:52.095 TikTok. 11 00:00:52.255 --> 00:00:56.380 How over the last six years and two presidents we got to where 12 00:00:56.380 --> 00:01:03.340 we are today. And then we ask, is this really where we want to 13 00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:06.620 be? But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna 14 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:09.655 listen to some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we 15 00:01:09.655 --> 00:01:11.975 return, we're gonna talk about a few of the things that have 16 00:01:11.975 --> 00:01:14.535 happened since the last time you heard from us. 17 00:01:15.015 --> 00:01:17.335 Also, you might notice that I sound a little bit different 18 00:01:17.335 --> 00:01:22.450 this episode. It's because the power in the studio is out, 19 00:01:22.610 --> 00:01:25.970 which is a fun thing to have happen when it's eight degrees 20 00:01:25.970 --> 00:01:30.690 outside. So I am recording on my mobile setup. Back to my normal 21 00:01:30.690 --> 00:01:36.115 microphone and setup hopefully in the next upload. Fly me to 22 00:01:36.115 --> 00:01:38.435 the moon and let me play among the stars. 23 00:01:38.435 --> 00:01:44.915 Let me see seven stories on Jupiter and Mars. Kalshi, a New 24 00:01:44.915 --> 00:01:48.850 York based prediction market web service comparable to Polymarket 25 00:01:48.850 --> 00:01:53.570 was sued last September by Massachusetts AG Andrea Joy 26 00:01:53.570 --> 00:01:56.850 Campbell, who said the company allowed people to place bets on 27 00:01:56.850 --> 00:02:02.130 the outcomes of sporting events without being licensed to do so 28 00:02:02.370 --> 00:02:07.845 in the state. On the January 20, Campbell got a court order to 29 00:02:07.845 --> 00:02:11.365 prevent Kalshi from operating within the state, saying in a 30 00:02:11.365 --> 00:02:14.405 statement that the move is part of her, quote, ongoing efforts 31 00:02:14.405 --> 00:02:18.200 to combat the public health harms associated with sports 32 00:02:18.200 --> 00:02:23.000 betting and gambling, especially among young people, end quote. 33 00:02:23.160 --> 00:02:27.320 That court order is now on hold. Calshey claims it is 34 00:02:27.320 --> 00:02:31.240 appropriately regulated federally and that Massachusetts 35 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:32.200 should butt out. 36 00:02:32.795 --> 00:02:36.715 Suffolk County judge Barry Smith disagrees and says the temporary 37 00:02:36.715 --> 00:02:40.355 injunction will hold but is giving both sides until February 38 00:02:40.355 --> 00:02:44.315 4 to confirm. The Boston Globe reports that if the injunction 39 00:02:44.315 --> 00:02:47.490 holds, which it seems like it will, Kulsi might be unavailable 40 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:52.530 in Massachusetts for months or years while litigation unfolds. 41 00:02:52.690 --> 00:02:56.130 It's unclear what this means for other prediction markets like 42 00:02:56.130 --> 00:03:03.505 Polymarket. Hackers are fighting back against ICE, the 43 00:03:03.505 --> 00:03:06.785 militarized federal police force currently occupying several 44 00:03:06.785 --> 00:03:09.585 American cities, kidnapping innocent people including 45 00:03:09.585 --> 00:03:12.860 toddlers and children, and who People Magazine reports are 46 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:16.860 responsible for quote at least thirty two deaths in the last 47 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:19.980 year. Tech Dirt reports that hackers have started to chip 48 00:03:19.980 --> 00:03:22.620 away at the extensive surveillance dragnet employed by 49 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:26.865 ICE and the CBP to inform and manage their campaigns of state 50 00:03:26.865 --> 00:03:27.985 sponsored violence. 51 00:03:28.385 --> 00:03:31.585 The projects range from the fairly straightforward like ICE 52 00:03:31.585 --> 00:03:34.945 list wiki, which aggregates publicly available information 53 00:03:34.945 --> 00:03:38.030 about ICE and its operations, to the more technologically 54 00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:41.790 involved like apps and gadgets which allow people to track the 55 00:03:41.790 --> 00:03:44.510 presence of surveillance equipment like flock cameras, 56 00:03:44.590 --> 00:03:48.350 drones, and Ray Ban meta sunglasses. Tech Dirt is also 57 00:03:48.350 --> 00:03:53.485 currently suing the US DOJ over the removal of ice tracking apps 58 00:03:53.485 --> 00:03:56.765 from the Apple App Store, citing the possibility that the 59 00:03:56.765 --> 00:04:00.765 government engaged in, quote, unconstitutional coercion to 60 00:04:00.765 --> 00:04:03.965 restrict constitutionally protected speech documenting 61 00:04:03.965 --> 00:04:14.630 public information. France has officially banned Zoom and Teams 62 00:04:14.630 --> 00:04:17.750 for its federal workers. As part of the growing digital 63 00:04:17.750 --> 00:04:20.230 divestiture movement whereby governments and other 64 00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:24.755 institutions are seeking to move away from US based technologies, 65 00:04:24.755 --> 00:04:28.595 France has announced its plans to restrict the use of Zoom, 66 00:04:28.675 --> 00:04:32.595 Teams, Google Meet, and other American platforms for video 67 00:04:32.595 --> 00:04:35.715 conferencing, opting instead for the domestically developed 68 00:04:35.715 --> 00:04:39.450 Vizio. This comes on the heels of a previous requirement that 69 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:43.290 French officials discontinue the use of WhatsApp and Telegram. 70 00:04:43.530 --> 00:04:47.770 Now, if we can just make it illegal for anyone in The US to 71 00:04:47.770 --> 00:04:59.115 use Teams as well, we'd really be cooking. Shopify will let you 72 00:04:59.115 --> 00:05:05.755 hawk your wares in, chat GPT, and levy an additional 4% fee 73 00:05:05.755 --> 00:05:09.230 for the pleasure. Purchases via other artificial intelligence 74 00:05:09.230 --> 00:05:12.510 services like Google's Gemini will not trigger additional 75 00:05:12.510 --> 00:05:16.910 fees, reports payments.com. This is part of a new set of features 76 00:05:16.910 --> 00:05:20.765 Shopify is calling agentic storefronts where people can 77 00:05:20.765 --> 00:05:24.605 browse, compare, ask questions about, and ultimately purchase 78 00:05:24.605 --> 00:05:29.165 items via AI chat services. Over the last year or so, massive 79 00:05:29.165 --> 00:05:33.210 payment processors like Visa and Mastercard have spilled much ink 80 00:05:33.210 --> 00:05:36.570 and spent all kinds of money forwarding the idea that the 81 00:05:36.570 --> 00:05:41.130 future of payments is so called agentic commerce, where 82 00:05:41.130 --> 00:05:45.050 consumers are accompanied and aided by all manner of AI 83 00:05:45.050 --> 00:05:45.610 agents. 84 00:05:45.955 --> 00:05:49.795 In October, on the topic, consulting giant McKinsey 85 00:05:49.795 --> 00:05:53.715 described it as quote, a rethinking of shopping itself in 86 00:05:53.715 --> 00:05:56.995 which the boundaries between platforms, services, and 87 00:05:56.995 --> 00:06:01.570 experiences give way to an integrated intent driven flow 88 00:06:01.650 --> 00:06:05.490 through highly personalized consumer journeys that deliver a 89 00:06:05.490 --> 00:06:12.985 fast, frictionless outcome. Craig of list fame isn't going 90 00:06:12.985 --> 00:06:18.185 to be funding as much journalism anymore. Newmark most famously 91 00:06:18.185 --> 00:06:22.745 lent his surname to the eponymous j school at CUNY, but 92 00:06:22.745 --> 00:06:25.385 says that his decades of giving to support journalistic 93 00:06:25.385 --> 00:06:29.680 endeavors haven't had the impact that he hoped. Talking to Neiman 94 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.800 Lab, he says quote, I really didn't understand that audience 95 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.640 development and related marketing needed to be a really 96 00:06:36.640 --> 00:06:41.280 big deal for everyone in journalism and didn't understand 97 00:06:41.405 --> 00:06:45.485 that very few really good journalists were aware of that. 98 00:06:45.485 --> 00:06:50.125 But I've started discussing that in maybe every engagement, end 99 00:06:50.125 --> 00:06:50.685 quote. 100 00:06:51.165 --> 00:06:54.445 Newmark explains his big question for journalistic orgs 101 00:06:54.445 --> 00:06:58.100 going forward is whether they plan to attempt growing outside 102 00:06:58.180 --> 00:07:02.500 of their very narrow base and emphasizes that it is a massive 103 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:07.380 undertaking simply keeping journalists safe in today's 104 00:07:07.380 --> 00:07:11.325 climate. He plans going forward to focus his philanthropy more 105 00:07:11.325 --> 00:07:14.925 heavily on cyber security as well as veterans and their 106 00:07:14.925 --> 00:07:20.045 families. DuckDuckGo asked and you answered. The privacy 107 00:07:20.045 --> 00:07:24.470 focused search product asked its users a simple question to vote 108 00:07:24.470 --> 00:07:32.230 for one of two options, yes AI or no AI. And 90 of respondents 109 00:07:32.230 --> 00:07:35.030 chose no AI. 110 00:07:35.350 --> 00:07:38.425 The vote seems to be a way to announce the search site's 111 00:07:38.425 --> 00:07:43.225 bifurcated approach. Votes for yes or no led to two different 112 00:07:43.225 --> 00:07:46.585 versions of the site. According to a statement by CEO Gabriel 113 00:07:46.585 --> 00:07:52.820 Weinberg, no ai.duckduckgo.com turns off search assist buttons 114 00:07:52.820 --> 00:07:57.620 to duck.ai and automatically turns on the hide AI images 115 00:07:57.620 --> 00:08:02.980 filter. While yes ai.duckduckgo.com turns search 116 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:07.695 assist too often, features duck AI on the homepage, and turns 117 00:08:07.695 --> 00:08:12.255 off the hide AI images filter. At the time of writing, duck 118 00:08:12.255 --> 00:08:16.335 duck go has just released its first public statement about the 119 00:08:16.335 --> 00:08:19.530 result emphasizing that their approach to AI going forward 120 00:08:19.530 --> 00:08:23.610 will always be one involving choice on the part of the end 121 00:08:23.610 --> 00:08:24.250 user. 122 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:25.290 Thank you. 123 00:08:25.690 --> 00:08:29.290 And finally, TikTok is now under majority 124 00:08:29.290 --> 00:08:34.105 control by US interests. On January 22, a deal was finalized 125 00:08:34.105 --> 00:08:37.465 bringing the app previously controlled by Chinese based tech 126 00:08:37.465 --> 00:08:41.545 company, ByteDance, to American data centers and under the 127 00:08:41.545 --> 00:08:47.020 control of American business interests and to some degree or 128 00:08:47.020 --> 00:08:54.300 another, maybe, the American government. After a short break, 129 00:08:54.380 --> 00:09:25.545 Hans, Georgia, and I discuss. Joining me to discuss are Never 130 00:09:25.545 --> 00:09:27.465 Post senior producer Hans Buto 131 00:09:27.785 --> 00:09:28.665 TikTok. 132 00:09:29.065 --> 00:09:31.705 And Never Post producer Georgia Hampton. 133 00:09:31.785 --> 00:09:33.145 I don't know what to do. 134 00:09:35.385 --> 00:09:39.770 Friends friends, hello. Okay. So before we really 135 00:09:39.770 --> 00:09:42.650 get into the discussion part of this, I wanna go over the 136 00:09:42.650 --> 00:09:47.370 history of this so far, which has been fast, because it's 137 00:09:47.370 --> 00:09:50.570 been, both multiple years and multiple presidents. 138 00:09:51.015 --> 00:09:52.695 Yeah. Where do you start? Right? 139 00:09:52.695 --> 00:09:54.775 Where do you It turns out you start in 2020. 140 00:09:54.775 --> 00:09:55.815 Okay. Okay. Okay. 141 00:09:55.815 --> 00:09:59.815 So in 2020, Trump says that TikTok should be 142 00:09:59.815 --> 00:10:03.015 banned, over national security concerns that the Chinese owned 143 00:10:03.015 --> 00:10:07.540 app is a threat to American national security. ByteDance, 144 00:10:07.700 --> 00:10:12.820 then its parent company, sues and wins, and then Joe Biden 145 00:10:12.820 --> 00:10:17.300 gets in off us. Right. He reverses Trump's executive 146 00:10:17.300 --> 00:10:21.755 order, and sends the issue to lawmakers who say almost the 147 00:10:21.755 --> 00:10:26.555 same thing as Trump. So congress passes a law that Biden then 148 00:10:26.555 --> 00:10:30.635 signs, which says that TikTok has to be sold to US interests 149 00:10:30.635 --> 00:10:32.555 within a certain amount of time. 150 00:10:32.555 --> 00:10:36.060 Let me see if I got this straight. Biden said, Trump 151 00:10:36.060 --> 00:10:39.820 is wrong. You don't have to sell. Congress said, no. You do. 152 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:41.740 And then Biden was like, never mind. Yeah. You do. 153 00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:44.700 Biden says, we shouldn't do this with an EO. We 154 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:46.380 should do this with law. 155 00:10:46.380 --> 00:10:48.300 Like, we should proper channels. We should do 156 00:10:48.300 --> 00:10:49.340 this based on evidence. 157 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:49.660 Got it. 158 00:10:49.945 --> 00:10:52.425 And we're gonna go, and I'm gonna ask for a 159 00:10:52.425 --> 00:10:55.945 commission to look at the national security's concerns 160 00:10:55.945 --> 00:10:58.985 that are possible with this Chinese owned app, and they're 161 00:10:58.985 --> 00:11:01.545 gonna advise me and blah blah blah blah blah. And what comes 162 00:11:01.545 --> 00:11:06.050 out at the end is basically the same thing that came out, you 163 00:11:06.050 --> 00:11:09.410 know, a couple years earlier or a year or two earlier, which was 164 00:11:09.410 --> 00:11:12.610 like, yeah, it seems like this could be a problem. We should 165 00:11:12.610 --> 00:11:15.970 figure out how to solve this from a national security 166 00:11:15.970 --> 00:11:16.610 perspective. 167 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:18.690 But with the backing of congress at this time 168 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:19.890 instead of just Correct. 169 00:11:20.025 --> 00:11:22.265 Yes. We should do this with laws instead of just 170 00:11:22.265 --> 00:11:25.465 with shouting, which really just is the the only difference there 171 00:11:25.465 --> 00:11:28.425 is that there is a ostensibly a piece of paper or at least 172 00:11:28.425 --> 00:11:31.705 piece of paper. Shouting in different registers 173 00:11:31.705 --> 00:11:34.985 Yeah. And in a very carpeted room. Right. 174 00:11:34.985 --> 00:11:36.810 Yes. Really, that's what it is. That's the 175 00:11:36.810 --> 00:11:37.530 difference. The idea of 176 00:11:37.530 --> 00:11:41.130 a carpet of a rug. Yes. A carpet, lacquered 177 00:11:41.130 --> 00:11:41.690 wood. 178 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:44.970 Yeah. Yeah. So congress passes a law that Biden 179 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:48.730 signs, which says that TikTok has to be sold to US interests 180 00:11:48.730 --> 00:11:52.915 within a certain amount of time. ByteDance then sues again. 181 00:11:53.395 --> 00:11:53.635 Right. 182 00:11:53.635 --> 00:11:58.515 Trump gets back in office with a changed tune. He's not so 183 00:11:58.515 --> 00:12:03.155 adamant now that it needs to go. Okay. So both ByteDance and 184 00:12:03.155 --> 00:12:08.950 Trump ask the Supreme Court to delay a ruling on whether the 185 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:13.590 law banning TikTok if it doesn't get sold is constitutional. The 186 00:12:13.590 --> 00:12:14.950 Supreme Court says, uh-uh. 187 00:12:14.950 --> 00:12:19.030 We're gonna rule. They say that it is constitutional, and so 188 00:12:19.030 --> 00:12:20.265 then, as we 189 00:12:20.265 --> 00:12:22.105 all remember constitutional, like, the the 190 00:12:22.105 --> 00:12:25.145 law saying no TikTok is constitutional. 191 00:12:25.145 --> 00:12:26.825 Is constitutional. Yes. And that is 192 00:12:26.825 --> 00:12:29.225 why TikTok is banned for, like, sixteen hours. 193 00:12:29.225 --> 00:12:30.265 I was gonna say 194 00:12:30.105 --> 00:12:31.465 It goes away last January. 195 00:12:31.465 --> 00:12:33.065 Yeah. We're getting to that moment. Can I 196 00:12:33.065 --> 00:12:34.585 ask a clarifying question really quick, Mike, 197 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:39.930 about while all this is swirling, how how are we able to 198 00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:43.050 do this about a Chinese company? Do they have an American 199 00:12:43.050 --> 00:12:44.250 contingent to them? 200 00:12:44.650 --> 00:12:47.290 Yeah. I mean, there are TikTok US offices here 201 00:12:47.290 --> 00:12:48.170 in New York. 202 00:12:48.625 --> 00:12:50.865 And so because of that, they're subject to 203 00:12:51.105 --> 00:12:53.185 Absolutely. They operate in The United States. 204 00:12:53.185 --> 00:12:56.705 They have local offices. Yeah. Like every tech company, you 205 00:12:56.705 --> 00:13:00.225 know, they are, beholden to the jurisdiction of the markets in 206 00:13:00.225 --> 00:13:01.185 which they operate. 207 00:13:01.185 --> 00:13:01.345 Totally. 208 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.760 You know, there's there's all kinds of regulation 209 00:13:05.760 --> 00:13:08.480 that they need to comply with. You know, famously, California 210 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.560 has really specific regulations that they need to abide by. And, 211 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.800 you know, we'll talk about this later, but there's all this 212 00:13:14.800 --> 00:13:20.155 concern about American data being sent overseas to the 213 00:13:20.155 --> 00:13:23.275 Chinese parent company being held in Chinese data centers, 214 00:13:23.275 --> 00:13:26.635 and TikTok US, at least, maintained for quite a while 215 00:13:26.635 --> 00:13:30.635 that if that did happen, it didn't happen to the degree that 216 00:13:30.635 --> 00:13:33.830 it would be like a national security concern. That it would 217 00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:36.550 basically just be like anonymized data for compliance 218 00:13:36.550 --> 00:13:39.430 and, like, you know, business operations and stuff. And it's 219 00:13:39.430 --> 00:13:43.510 not like we're sending every video scanned Right. 220 00:13:43.510 --> 00:13:48.575 And AI monitored over to our Chinese counterparts. So the 221 00:13:48.655 --> 00:13:48.815 Zoom 222 00:13:48.815 --> 00:13:50.575 and enhance. Zoom and enhance on everything. 223 00:13:50.575 --> 00:13:53.215 Yeah. Exactly. It's not being stored in Chinese 224 00:13:53.215 --> 00:13:56.975 data centers, right, which is like the the idea that was 225 00:13:56.975 --> 00:13:58.495 forwarded by a lot of people at the time. 226 00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:01.620 The feeling I remember from when TikTok was 227 00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:07.300 banned for, you know, less than a day was that somehow that 228 00:14:07.300 --> 00:14:10.260 would happen. Like, the threat of that was real. 229 00:14:10.995 --> 00:14:12.675 I mean, I think in the minds of in my 230 00:14:12.675 --> 00:14:15.635 perspective, at least, it was in the minds of some people it was. 231 00:14:17.315 --> 00:14:20.275 Yep. They're they're gonna come and get your data, which I mean, 232 00:14:20.275 --> 00:14:22.755 you know, again, we can talk about this behind a little bit, 233 00:14:22.755 --> 00:14:24.755 but, like They're spoilers. Everybody's coming to get your 234 00:14:24.755 --> 00:14:25.395 data, honey. 235 00:14:25.395 --> 00:14:29.350 I was gonna say, I Sweet child. Going to be. 236 00:14:29.510 --> 00:14:31.990 They're all coming for it. Everyone wants 237 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:36.710 it. Yep. So, anyways, so TikTok is banned for a very short 238 00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:40.375 amount of time. Trump then signs another executive order saying 239 00:14:40.375 --> 00:14:45.335 that the law should not be enforced and the app returns. 240 00:14:45.975 --> 00:14:49.735 And at the time, I had posted something like, it will be funny 241 00:14:49.735 --> 00:14:54.500 to look back on this in four years and see how the total 242 00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:59.540 dissolution of law in The United States began with an executive 243 00:14:59.540 --> 00:15:05.235 order unbanning a popular video app. Mhmm. And well Well 244 00:15:05.475 --> 00:15:06.755 and here we are. 245 00:15:06.755 --> 00:15:07.795 Here we are. 246 00:15:07.795 --> 00:15:12.195 So after several extensions to the requirement 247 00:15:12.195 --> 00:15:16.435 for the sale, a sale is brokered between ByteDance, who will 248 00:15:16.435 --> 00:15:21.520 retain a 20% stake in the American offshoot of this 249 00:15:21.520 --> 00:15:22.560 Chinese social media 250 00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:23.280 app Okay. 251 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:28.400 With tech giant Oracle, who is helmed by the 252 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:32.880 Trump friendly CEO Larry Ellison, who is himself father 253 00:15:33.095 --> 00:15:37.655 to the Paramount Skydance and CBS owner David Ellison. 254 00:15:37.655 --> 00:15:39.335 Perfect. Cool. No notes. 255 00:15:39.335 --> 00:15:42.695 No notes. Private equity group Silver Lake, who 256 00:15:42.695 --> 00:15:46.615 have made investments in Mhmm. Get ready. Okay. Electronic 257 00:15:46.615 --> 00:15:46.935 Arts. 258 00:15:47.130 --> 00:15:50.970 Yep. Airbnb. Yep. Oh. Waymo. 259 00:15:51.450 --> 00:15:58.330 Dell. What? Skype. Woah. And Klarna. 260 00:15:58.730 --> 00:15:59.690 Am now laying on 261 00:15:59.690 --> 00:16:00.410 the ground. 262 00:16:02.170 --> 00:16:03.425 Not Klarna. 263 00:16:04.945 --> 00:16:09.505 And Abu Dhabi based investment firm MGX who 264 00:16:09.505 --> 00:16:14.785 focuses entirely on artificial intelligence technologies. So, 265 00:16:14.785 --> 00:16:20.410 like, they are partnering with NVIDIA and OpenAI and, like, all 266 00:16:20.410 --> 00:16:22.170 of the people you would expect to be on that list. 267 00:16:22.170 --> 00:16:24.330 Stream blunt rotation. Am I right? 268 00:16:25.050 --> 00:16:29.050 Dys dystopic cyberpunk blunt rotation. God. 269 00:16:30.585 --> 00:16:32.665 Yeah. All that's missing is can we get Peter 270 00:16:32.665 --> 00:16:34.265 Thiel in here somehow? Literally. 271 00:16:34.265 --> 00:16:35.545 If only. 272 00:16:35.785 --> 00:16:38.585 Each firm is gonna hold a 15% stake in 273 00:16:38.585 --> 00:16:43.225 TikTok. The LLC, which has been formed to operate the platform, 274 00:16:43.225 --> 00:16:51.230 is called TikTok USDS Joint Ventures LLC. USDS standing for 275 00:16:51.230 --> 00:16:54.590 the United States Digital Service, which is the 276 00:16:54.590 --> 00:16:55.390 traditional name 277 00:16:55.550 --> 00:16:56.670 Oh, no. For what 278 00:16:56.670 --> 00:17:02.545 has more recently been known as Doge. Good lord. 279 00:17:02.625 --> 00:17:05.825 So all of those investors, anybody who is operating the 280 00:17:05.825 --> 00:17:08.945 platform, which is primarily gonna be Oracle and various 281 00:17:08.945 --> 00:17:12.465 other, you know, entities, they're all operating under this 282 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:18.980 TikTok USDS joint ventures LLC. So I mean, my first question 283 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:21.540 that I have written down here is one that I feel like we already 284 00:17:21.540 --> 00:17:25.540 know the answer to, which is, you know, how do we just feel 285 00:17:25.540 --> 00:17:31.025 generally about this about this outcome of things? How does this 286 00:17:31.025 --> 00:17:35.825 group of people make us feel in comparison to say, like, Mark 287 00:17:35.825 --> 00:17:40.865 Zuckerberg and Meta or, you know, Elon Musk and X? 288 00:17:42.330 --> 00:17:46.490 Just the the various other people who helm all of the 289 00:17:46.490 --> 00:17:50.410 social media networks that we use every single day. Like, do 290 00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:52.970 we feel like this group is better? Is this group worse? Is 291 00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:55.850 this group the same? How do we how do you feel? 292 00:17:56.595 --> 00:18:00.195 I feel like this group is more directly connected 293 00:18:00.755 --> 00:18:07.155 to existing media infrastructure in a way that makes me nervous. 294 00:18:07.475 --> 00:18:14.280 So the fact that they also that they are cousins with CBS News, 295 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.000 with Barry Weiss's Free Press, with, like, all the stuff that 296 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.375 we're watching happen there, we already know what their 297 00:18:22.375 --> 00:18:25.015 priorities are. We already know what their ethics are. We 298 00:18:25.015 --> 00:18:28.135 already know what their journalistic integrity is. We 299 00:18:28.135 --> 00:18:30.215 already know what their sense of privacy is. 300 00:18:30.455 --> 00:18:32.855 That all just becomes transferred in. Right? 301 00:18:32.855 --> 00:18:37.780 Oh, yeah. It is a very terrifying thing to 302 00:18:37.780 --> 00:18:41.860 behold in a very different way. Because with, Mike, the examples 303 00:18:41.860 --> 00:18:47.220 you gave of Mark Zuckerberg and Meta or Elon Musk and X, you 304 00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:51.725 have this sort of mad king situation. But there is 305 00:18:51.725 --> 00:18:56.605 something uniquely chilling about how structured and 306 00:18:56.605 --> 00:19:04.925 organizational this is, where there isn't some guy who's 307 00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:05.500 running amok. 308 00:19:05.500 --> 00:19:09.740 Sure. Like, Elon Musk is like a piece of shit and 309 00:19:09.820 --> 00:19:13.580 not good at running a company very clearly. Still very, very, 310 00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:15.020 very, very, very dangerous 311 00:19:15.260 --> 00:19:15.660 Yes. 312 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:18.295 But is but is a bit of a clown. People like 313 00:19:18.295 --> 00:19:22.135 Larry and David Ellison appear to be very good and practiced at 314 00:19:22.135 --> 00:19:23.335 making the world worse. 315 00:19:23.415 --> 00:19:26.535 Mhmm. But are they better in this particular 316 00:19:26.535 --> 00:19:30.695 instance? Part of what made TikTok glorious was the careful 317 00:19:30.695 --> 00:19:35.620 refinement of the FYP and the algorithm and maintaining the 318 00:19:35.620 --> 00:19:40.260 algorithm in a certain way, which if there's pressure being 319 00:19:40.260 --> 00:19:42.820 put by these people who, yes, know how to make the structural 320 00:19:42.820 --> 00:19:46.345 changes, they know like, oh, we wanna highlight this or de 321 00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:48.985 highlight that or de emphasize this or like if they wanna make 322 00:19:48.985 --> 00:19:52.425 changes, when you start putting those sort of external pressures 323 00:19:52.425 --> 00:19:57.880 into the tenderness of a delicate little algorithm, is 324 00:19:58.120 --> 00:20:02.200 what they're able to be good at translatable into an algorithm 325 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:03.560 that makes it work. 326 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.600 So they have said I have seen two what feel to me 327 00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:11.215 like conflicting reports, which is, hey, if you're a TikTok user 328 00:20:11.215 --> 00:20:14.255 and you like the algorithm, don't worry. The TikTok 329 00:20:14.255 --> 00:20:17.615 algorithm is is not going anywhere. It's Okay. It you're 330 00:20:17.615 --> 00:20:21.455 gonna get the same, like, service that you expect. You're 331 00:20:21.455 --> 00:20:25.210 gonna get a feed that's tailored to your interests, etcetera, 332 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:26.010 etcetera, etcetera. 333 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:29.050 But then I've also seen we're gonna be retraining the 334 00:20:29.050 --> 00:20:33.130 algorithm specifically for US audiences. It is our job now to 335 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:36.250 maintain. Yeah. You know, it is a domestic operation, so we're 336 00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:39.825 not relying on Chinese artificial intelligence. You 337 00:20:39.825 --> 00:20:42.625 know, that was the security concern to begin with. 338 00:20:42.625 --> 00:20:45.665 So it's all domestic now, and we're gonna retrain everything 339 00:20:45.665 --> 00:20:50.210 and, like, here we go. Don't worry. I can see how those two 340 00:20:50.530 --> 00:20:54.450 if you're, like, inside it, those two things seem do not 341 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:57.650 seem like they contradict one another. Right. To me, they very 342 00:20:57.650 --> 00:20:59.250 much do contradict one another. 343 00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:00.290 Absolutely. Oh, 344 00:21:00.290 --> 00:21:03.810 I mean, the word tailoring is doing a lot of 345 00:21:04.465 --> 00:21:08.065 smoothing over here of, cool. Yeah. No. For sure. For sure. 346 00:21:08.065 --> 00:21:09.105 What does that mean? 347 00:21:09.105 --> 00:21:11.265 You know, all those those, beautiful Chinese 348 00:21:11.265 --> 00:21:13.585 folk songs you've been seeing for the last year, people do 349 00:21:13.585 --> 00:21:16.065 covers of? Those are gone. Those are gonna go gone. Gone. I hope 350 00:21:16.065 --> 00:21:17.265 you don't like those because Yeah. 351 00:21:17.980 --> 00:21:21.900 I think to a certain degree, people want to imagine that 352 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:26.300 software is serving them. Or like software lives in two kind 353 00:21:26.300 --> 00:21:29.660 of modes. Right? You have the mode where the software is 354 00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:32.065 serving you, and you go to it because it gives you things that 355 00:21:32.065 --> 00:21:34.385 you can't get elsewhere. I'm never leaving this app. 356 00:21:34.385 --> 00:21:38.065 I built this FYP brick by brick, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. Or 357 00:21:38.065 --> 00:21:41.745 it's working against you. Right? The adpocalypse, the algorithm 358 00:21:41.745 --> 00:21:45.105 can't, you know, nobody's seeing my videos, blah blah blah blah 359 00:21:45.105 --> 00:21:45.345 blah. 360 00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:48.180 And I think the important thing that we didn't talk about just 361 00:21:48.180 --> 00:21:50.740 now as far as the group of people is the connection to 362 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:55.140 USDS, which is huge. Right? That is an explicit connection to the 363 00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:56.420 United States government. 364 00:21:56.660 --> 00:21:57.060 Yeah. 365 00:21:57.060 --> 00:21:59.380 Right? Mhmm. Which is important because so on 366 00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:05.495 January 22, the TikTok USDS joint venture LLC releases a 367 00:22:05.495 --> 00:22:09.255 statement that says, amongst other things, this is their, 368 00:22:09.255 --> 00:22:11.095 hey. Get ready. Things are about to change. 369 00:22:11.255 --> 00:22:14.695 Okay. They say US data will be protected by USDS joint ventures 370 00:22:14.695 --> 00:22:18.170 in Oracle's secure US cloud environment. The joint venture 371 00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:20.970 will operate a comprehensive data privacy and cybersecurity 372 00:22:20.970 --> 00:22:24.010 program that is audited and certified by third party 373 00:22:24.010 --> 00:22:28.010 cybersecurity experts. The program will adhere to major 374 00:22:28.010 --> 00:22:30.465 industry standards, including the National Institute of 375 00:22:30.465 --> 00:22:33.665 Standards and Technology, blah blah blah, like all these ISOs, 376 00:22:33.905 --> 00:22:36.865 cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency security 377 00:22:36.865 --> 00:22:39.505 requirements for restricted transactions. The joint venture 378 00:22:39.505 --> 00:22:42.625 will retain, test, and update content recommendation algorithm 379 00:22:42.625 --> 00:22:43.905 on US user data. 380 00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:46.630 The content recommendation algorithm will be secured in 381 00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:51.030 Oracle's US cloud environment. The joint venture will secure US 382 00:22:51.030 --> 00:22:53.830 apps through software assurance protocols and review and 383 00:22:53.830 --> 00:22:56.790 validate source code on an ongoing basis, assisted by its 384 00:22:56.790 --> 00:23:01.545 trusted security partner, Oracle. Right? And then people 385 00:23:01.545 --> 00:23:05.545 start trying to upload videos about ICE, which, of course, 386 00:23:05.545 --> 00:23:08.665 they are because that's what's happening in the moment. Yeah. 387 00:23:08.665 --> 00:23:13.145 It the biggest story that is happening in The United States 388 00:23:13.145 --> 00:23:17.840 right now. And, I mean, you know, if it is to be believed, 389 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:20.400 based upon what I've read online, in other parts of the 390 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.840 world as well, that, like, people in Australia and Spain 391 00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:26.800 and Germany are looking at what's happening in your 392 00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:28.160 backyard, Hans. 393 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:28.400 Yep. 394 00:23:28.565 --> 00:23:29.605 Literally. It's like 395 00:23:29.685 --> 00:23:29.925 Yeah. 396 00:23:30.005 --> 00:23:32.245 They are like, it's what people are talking 397 00:23:32.245 --> 00:23:32.725 about. 398 00:23:32.885 --> 00:23:33.445 Yeah. 399 00:23:33.525 --> 00:23:36.965 And they can't upload those videos. Or they're 400 00:23:36.965 --> 00:23:40.005 uploading them and they're being held for review. 401 00:23:40.005 --> 00:23:40.485 Yes. 402 00:23:40.485 --> 00:23:43.230 Yeah. Or they're uploading them. They're being 403 00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:46.750 published, but then they're getting zero views. Yes. Or 404 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:49.630 they're getting zero views and people can't comment on them. 405 00:23:49.790 --> 00:23:57.465 Yeah. So, of course, people look at the new group of owners Yep. 406 00:23:57.545 --> 00:24:01.465 The TikTok USDS joint venture LLC 407 00:24:01.785 --> 00:24:02.185 Yep. 408 00:24:02.265 --> 00:24:05.625 And they think, here it is, the new TikTok. The 409 00:24:05.625 --> 00:24:08.700 United States government is censoring me. Georgia, I think 410 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:10.460 you are the most on TikTok 411 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:11.180 of Yeah. 412 00:24:11.260 --> 00:24:14.060 The three of us. Yes. I'm curious, like, what 413 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:17.900 your sense of this is from being on the app. 414 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:22.795 So there's real precedence for this concern. Say 415 00:24:22.795 --> 00:24:27.355 what you want about really sanitized terms like unalive and 416 00:24:27.835 --> 00:24:30.235 pew pew for gun and stuff like that. 417 00:24:30.235 --> 00:24:30.635 Yeah. 418 00:24:30.635 --> 00:24:32.875 A community around this sort of language 419 00:24:32.875 --> 00:24:41.010 developed on on TikTok because of very real issues with 420 00:24:41.010 --> 00:24:44.610 censorship that do genuinely exist on TikTok. Like, I have I 421 00:24:44.610 --> 00:24:48.850 have tested this where, like, I've tried typing out trans in a 422 00:24:48.850 --> 00:24:53.085 comment, and it would, like, publish my comment with, like, 423 00:24:53.085 --> 00:24:56.205 the trans flag. I would put the trans flag in a comment, and it 424 00:24:56.205 --> 00:24:59.565 would just publish it with, like, a question mark, which 425 00:24:59.725 --> 00:25:07.040 there is precedence for this concern of where is the app 426 00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:11.920 controlling what I see? I think it all comes back to the 427 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.440 algorithm and how fine tuned it is, that it's so fine tuned that 428 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:21.085 there's this feeling that it's not just providing, it is 429 00:25:21.085 --> 00:25:21.885 controlling. 430 00:25:21.885 --> 00:25:24.765 Yeah. I think this is where these sorts of things 431 00:25:24.765 --> 00:25:27.165 always algorithms get us into trouble, like the black box 432 00:25:27.165 --> 00:25:29.565 algorithms get us into trouble every single time. Because we 433 00:25:29.565 --> 00:25:32.445 know so little about them, we have to 434 00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:34.300 all you can do is imagine it. 435 00:25:34.300 --> 00:25:36.780 Yeah. You just suppose you can and then, like, 436 00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:39.580 supposing very quickly goes into conspiracy theories. When you 437 00:25:39.580 --> 00:25:41.740 start adding up things like like, was reading about the 438 00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:45.660 number of outages that have been reported and how many how how 439 00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:48.595 many people have had trouble actually even loading it in the 440 00:25:48.595 --> 00:25:52.275 first place. The way that they describe it is that there's 441 00:25:52.275 --> 00:25:55.235 problems with a data center power outage. 442 00:25:55.235 --> 00:25:56.435 This is what TikTok has said. 443 00:25:56.435 --> 00:25:58.275 Yeah. This is what TikTok has said. 444 00:25:58.275 --> 00:26:00.700 Yes. So, I mean, it's yeah. I've seen the same 445 00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:03.980 thing. Like, I see people on Blue Sky. I see people on 446 00:26:03.980 --> 00:26:04.540 Instagram. 447 00:26:04.540 --> 00:26:07.180 Right? People are taking to other social media networks to 448 00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:11.900 say, like, for the last four days at time of recording, I 449 00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:16.095 have had all of these problems. And it really it feels like, the 450 00:26:16.095 --> 00:26:17.295 comedian Megan Stalter 451 00:26:17.295 --> 00:26:19.695 is the one who I was about to suggest. Georgia, 452 00:26:19.695 --> 00:26:22.495 tell us about what it is that happened. Meg Stalter is a 453 00:26:22.495 --> 00:26:29.150 comedian, and she posted on Instagram this whole carousel of 454 00:26:29.150 --> 00:26:33.710 herself, basically saying, I have been trying to upload 455 00:26:33.710 --> 00:26:38.925 videos about ICE, and every single time they get taken down 456 00:26:38.925 --> 00:26:42.045 or nobody's able to see them or they're under review forever, 457 00:26:42.045 --> 00:26:45.565 there's some issue that makes it so that no one ever sees them, 458 00:26:45.885 --> 00:26:50.550 including, in her own words, when she's tried to mask them as 459 00:26:50.550 --> 00:26:53.270 like a comedy video or something. So not even showing, 460 00:26:53.270 --> 00:26:57.750 like, visuals of something, just talking, that it's always being 461 00:26:57.750 --> 00:26:59.670 flagged. It's always being taken down. 462 00:26:59.670 --> 00:27:01.350 It's never being published. 463 00:27:01.510 --> 00:27:03.590 The implication being that, like, someone is 464 00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:05.190 manually reviewing these. 465 00:27:05.695 --> 00:27:10.335 Yes. Or that they have this software in place 466 00:27:10.575 --> 00:27:13.375 Yeah. That just can flag Some sort of 467 00:27:13.375 --> 00:27:16.255 volunteer level, like, we Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:27:16.335 --> 00:27:17.375 Exactly. Exactly. 469 00:27:17.375 --> 00:27:20.190 So she basically said, you know, I am 470 00:27:20.190 --> 00:27:23.230 downloading all of my videos from TikTok. I'm gonna start 471 00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:27.150 sharing them on here, which is Instagram, urging all of her 472 00:27:27.150 --> 00:27:30.910 followers to delete the app, delete their account, because 473 00:27:30.910 --> 00:27:33.545 she that's what she's doing. She's removing herself 474 00:27:33.545 --> 00:27:37.785 completely, taking everything off, deleting her existence on 475 00:27:37.785 --> 00:27:40.665 TikTok because of this. And alongside this, people 476 00:27:40.665 --> 00:27:43.065 are also noting they're, like, going now to the 477 00:27:43.065 --> 00:27:47.650 terms of service and noting the, like, draconian, you know, like, 478 00:27:47.650 --> 00:27:49.730 data data sharing location 479 00:27:49.650 --> 00:27:51.890 not sharing. For me. It's auto popped up. Right? 480 00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:53.730 Well, it's an agreement with a new entity. 481 00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:55.410 With a new entity. Exactly right. 482 00:27:55.410 --> 00:27:58.370 And so people people are now reading it in 483 00:27:58.370 --> 00:28:01.925 this new context and and are getting scared by it or getting 484 00:28:01.925 --> 00:28:05.045 upset by it. I think even Gavin Newsom is like, we're gonna look 485 00:28:05.045 --> 00:28:06.965 at this. Like, who knows what's going on here? 486 00:28:07.205 --> 00:28:09.045 Which is wild thing for the governor of California 487 00:28:09.045 --> 00:28:09.605 to say. 488 00:28:09.605 --> 00:28:12.165 The truth of it being, it's what it was before 489 00:28:12.165 --> 00:28:13.900 as well. It's the same. It is. It's the same. 490 00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:17.420 Words in there, but it's it's really basically the 491 00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:17.900 same. 492 00:28:18.060 --> 00:28:21.660 So I think for me, this is really the story. 493 00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:21.980 Yes. 494 00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:23.580 There was a massive technical changeover 495 00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:26.635 after which there were technical difficulties. Yep. We have a 496 00:28:26.635 --> 00:28:29.275 bunch of people who notice these things, a bunch of popular 497 00:28:29.275 --> 00:28:32.555 people who notice these things, and then draw, I think, a fair 498 00:28:32.555 --> 00:28:36.475 conclusion given the actors involved in the transfer. 499 00:28:36.635 --> 00:28:40.635 Completely. And then people who whose attention has been drawn 500 00:28:40.635 --> 00:28:44.980 now to a terms of service that has always been bad, but maybe 501 00:28:44.980 --> 00:28:48.900 now feels worse in that the actors are domestic and 502 00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:53.780 associated with a fascistic invading force on Yes. 503 00:28:53.860 --> 00:29:00.315 United States soil, and they're newly suspicious of this app 504 00:29:00.315 --> 00:29:04.155 that has, you know, colonized a lot of their time over the last 505 00:29:04.155 --> 00:29:07.995 several years. You know, like, was looking at Rusty Foster, who 506 00:29:07.995 --> 00:29:11.435 writes Today in Tabs, said that he's seeing all of these things 507 00:29:11.435 --> 00:29:15.680 as well, while, in fact, TikTok is the only place that he's 508 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:20.400 seeing people openly call for violence against ICE and the 509 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:24.560 CBP. Yeah. He said, if anyone still believes the rumors that 510 00:29:24.560 --> 00:29:28.375 TikTok is being censored, my whole FYP is anti ICE right now, 511 00:29:28.375 --> 00:29:32.295 almost without exception. People are performing panic for clout. 512 00:29:32.455 --> 00:29:34.855 At the moment, TikTok is the only social media where I'm 513 00:29:34.855 --> 00:29:38.215 seeing regular people openly and vigorously advocate for the 514 00:29:38.215 --> 00:29:42.120 assassination of federal agents, in fact. Yeah. True. And I think 515 00:29:42.120 --> 00:29:44.600 I think that this is the story. This is there's like the 516 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:47.880 strength of this I don't know at this point if it's even 517 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:49.560 algorithmic imaginary. 518 00:29:49.560 --> 00:29:53.560 It's almost like platform imaginary. The idea of what the 519 00:29:53.560 --> 00:29:58.655 platform is for and what it does even outside of its content 520 00:29:58.655 --> 00:30:02.975 service algorithm that, like, people are now imagining it as 521 00:30:03.295 --> 00:30:05.295 an extension of the United States government. 522 00:30:05.775 --> 00:30:07.775 I haven't gone on TikTok since this change 523 00:30:07.775 --> 00:30:10.415 happened. I wanted to give myself a break and also to kind 524 00:30:10.415 --> 00:30:14.310 of think about this and be like, do I wanna participate in this? 525 00:30:14.630 --> 00:30:21.110 I am not surprised to hear that there's a much more direct, very 526 00:30:21.110 --> 00:30:24.550 explicit conversation. Because in the midst of the unaliving 527 00:30:24.550 --> 00:30:29.235 language and things like that, there is also just very flat out 528 00:30:30.035 --> 00:30:34.515 face to face feeling addressing of current events and 529 00:30:34.515 --> 00:30:37.715 documentation of current events that I don't see on something 530 00:30:37.715 --> 00:30:40.035 like Instagram ever. Ever ever ever. 531 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:43.360 I think the timing of this is also wild. 532 00:30:43.360 --> 00:30:44.320 Yes. Yes. 533 00:30:44.320 --> 00:30:50.640 I have never seen this level of widespread openly 534 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:55.935 voiced distrust of anything the government says. The New York 535 00:30:55.935 --> 00:30:58.015 Times is starting to call them liars. Like, the New 536 00:30:58.015 --> 00:30:59.855 York Times. That that is 537 00:30:59.855 --> 00:31:01.695 nuts. It's nuts. 538 00:31:01.775 --> 00:31:04.735 It's nuts. You have, like, Laura Ingraham is 539 00:31:04.735 --> 00:31:10.900 turning on Kristi Noem. Like, over the past weekend, you have 540 00:31:10.900 --> 00:31:17.140 have seen maybe the limits of what it is that we're willing to 541 00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:22.955 put up with without calling it direct lies. And I think being 542 00:31:22.955 --> 00:31:26.475 here in Minnesota, you know, there was a I looked at my 543 00:31:26.475 --> 00:31:28.715 podcast feed. This is maybe a week or so ago. 544 00:31:28.715 --> 00:31:31.995 So after Renee Good was killed, but before Alex Preti was 545 00:31:31.995 --> 00:31:35.755 killed. And I think Fresh Air had the title of one of their 546 00:31:35.755 --> 00:31:39.480 episodes was, is what ICE is doing illegal? And I was like, 547 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:40.520 oh, bloody. 548 00:31:40.520 --> 00:31:44.360 Girl. We're so past that. Who cares 549 00:31:44.360 --> 00:31:45.800 at this point? Hey, guys. 550 00:31:45.800 --> 00:31:49.800 Who cares? You got other stuff going on. 551 00:31:49.800 --> 00:31:51.640 That's not the point. Right? Like, these 552 00:31:51.845 --> 00:31:55.285 statements come out and, like, there's so much the government 553 00:31:55.285 --> 00:31:58.725 has so little credibility, I think, on the ground here, at 554 00:31:58.725 --> 00:32:03.365 least in Minnesota, that it's a wild time to launch something 555 00:32:03.365 --> 00:32:09.630 and put the former name of a government group into the name 556 00:32:09.630 --> 00:32:13.310 of the company that's organizing it and expect to have anything 557 00:32:13.310 --> 00:32:14.670 you say be believed. 558 00:32:14.670 --> 00:32:17.790 Well, and also, a very understandable reaction 559 00:32:17.790 --> 00:32:23.205 to that is, okay. You're gonna be watching all of us. Yeah. So, 560 00:32:23.205 --> 00:32:28.885 of course, anyone who is on an app that then opens the app and 561 00:32:28.885 --> 00:32:31.205 there's a little dialogue box that's like, hey. You can't use 562 00:32:31.205 --> 00:32:33.605 this until you agree to our terms of service, which include 563 00:32:33.605 --> 00:32:34.885 that we are data tracking you. 564 00:32:35.500 --> 00:32:38.220 And also, the premise of our entire app is 565 00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:41.020 that it's full of artificial intelligence and tracking what 566 00:32:41.020 --> 00:32:41.500 you do. 567 00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:44.300 Yes. And that the US government is in the name of 568 00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:45.900 the company that owns it? 569 00:32:46.060 --> 00:32:48.655 And, yeah, the app that already has had people 570 00:32:48.655 --> 00:32:51.135 have to completely change the way they talk about things out 571 00:32:51.135 --> 00:32:55.295 of fear of I I've seen people on Instagram being, like, I don't 572 00:32:55.295 --> 00:32:58.175 wanna talk about this because the last time I've talked about 573 00:32:58.175 --> 00:33:00.895 this, I weirdly had a day where I was at the airport and they 574 00:33:00.895 --> 00:33:04.100 pulled me and, like, ripped apart my suitcase. And I don't 575 00:33:04.100 --> 00:33:06.740 like those two things being together, and I don't know if 576 00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:09.460 that was real, but I don't know if it wasn't real. Like, there's 577 00:33:09.460 --> 00:33:14.180 just this fear that I think is very real. How could anyone see 578 00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:17.275 what's going on with TikTok and not be like, what the fuck is 579 00:33:17.275 --> 00:33:17.995 happening? 580 00:33:18.315 --> 00:33:21.835 I think that this these two things, the fact that, 581 00:33:21.835 --> 00:33:26.715 like, you know, NPR is asking, like, is what ICE is doing 582 00:33:26.715 --> 00:33:32.550 illegal? And Oh, god. And then people worrying that what before 583 00:33:32.550 --> 00:33:37.430 this point would have been maybe innocuous if somewhat 584 00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:43.785 politically afield actions taken online could get them in some 585 00:33:43.785 --> 00:33:47.785 sort of trouble. Both of those things are are two sides of an 586 00:33:47.785 --> 00:33:51.785 old anarchist saying, which is the only thing that makes 587 00:33:51.785 --> 00:33:53.545 criminals is laws. Yep. 588 00:33:53.545 --> 00:33:56.630 And that works both ways. If there's no law to stop you from 589 00:33:56.630 --> 00:33:58.870 what you're doing, you might be doing something that is morally 590 00:33:58.870 --> 00:34:00.630 reprehensible, but it's you're not 591 00:34:00.630 --> 00:34:02.070 a criminal. It's not a criminal. Mhmm. 592 00:34:02.070 --> 00:34:05.110 If you're doing something that is, morally just, 593 00:34:05.110 --> 00:34:08.855 that is pro social, that is communitarian, If there's a law 594 00:34:08.855 --> 00:34:11.575 that says that you can't do it, then you're a criminal. You have 595 00:34:11.575 --> 00:34:13.975 been already a criminal. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 596 00:34:13.975 --> 00:34:21.735 And this administration wants to put that idea to use in as many 597 00:34:21.735 --> 00:34:25.350 places as they can and in as many ways as it seems like they 598 00:34:25.350 --> 00:34:29.590 can. So this gets me to, I think, the, like, last and the 599 00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:34.470 big question that I wanna ask, which is maybe it's always been 600 00:34:34.470 --> 00:34:38.310 the time, but is now really the time to ditch TikTok? 601 00:34:39.145 --> 00:34:43.225 Yeah. I I don't I don't know. I mean, the easy 602 00:34:43.225 --> 00:34:45.785 answer, I think, is, yeah. Of course. Everyone get out of 603 00:34:45.785 --> 00:34:46.185 there. 604 00:34:46.185 --> 00:34:53.590 But, like, as a journalist, a part of me wants to be there and 605 00:34:53.590 --> 00:35:00.230 see what's happening. I use it constantly for the work I do on 606 00:35:00.230 --> 00:35:04.710 this show. Obviously, I am out of the three of us, the person 607 00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:11.525 who's been on the app the most and uses it the most. And I 608 00:35:11.525 --> 00:35:14.085 don't know how to feel, frankly, right now. 609 00:35:14.805 --> 00:35:18.085 Maybe what you're saying, Georgia, is like, keep 610 00:35:18.085 --> 00:35:21.205 using TikTok if you feel like you have to or if you really 611 00:35:21.205 --> 00:35:26.010 enjoy it, but do it knowing the context you're in and maybe with 612 00:35:26.010 --> 00:35:30.250 a little bit of a, like, personal data safety protocol. 613 00:35:30.650 --> 00:35:33.210 A 100%. Oh, I think anyone who uses it has to 614 00:35:33.210 --> 00:35:33.930 pay attention to that. 615 00:35:34.675 --> 00:35:36.755 And Like, you know, do you do you have to get, 616 00:35:36.755 --> 00:35:42.435 like, a TikTok only device? Oh god. Just get an old Android 617 00:35:42.435 --> 00:35:45.635 phone from eBay and Wi Fi only and 618 00:35:46.355 --> 00:35:49.310 I was never on TikTok, so I have a very 619 00:35:49.310 --> 00:35:51.630 different perspective of having watched it for all of these 620 00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:54.110 years. And the thing that I feel like I've watched is so many 621 00:35:54.110 --> 00:35:58.510 people close the Venn diagram between Internet and TikTok Yes. 622 00:35:58.750 --> 00:36:02.045 To where I think there's a sizable number. I I can't say 623 00:36:02.045 --> 00:36:04.205 for sure how many, but think that TikTok is the Internet or 624 00:36:04.205 --> 00:36:07.805 the Internet is TikTok. I think that the question for me is 625 00:36:07.805 --> 00:36:09.245 where does everyone go? 626 00:36:09.565 --> 00:36:11.725 Yeah. And if they don't feel like they have anywhere to go, I 627 00:36:11.725 --> 00:36:13.725 think that's a lot of the bet that's being made right now. 628 00:36:14.150 --> 00:36:16.390 100%. Don't feel like they're easy because where are they 629 00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:17.750 gonna go? They go to Instagram? 630 00:36:17.750 --> 00:36:20.230 Barry Weiss of CBS. You go to Barry Weiss of c 631 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:22.230 b right. Where do you 632 00:36:22.230 --> 00:36:24.710 go is a really, really big question. So who's 633 00:36:24.710 --> 00:36:27.510 gonna activate? Just like the explosion of blue sky, is there 634 00:36:27.510 --> 00:36:33.055 gonna be explosion of new TikTok equivalent based on an open 635 00:36:33.055 --> 00:36:37.295 protocol, something that's gonna actually take people over? 636 00:36:43.055 --> 00:36:46.160 Okay. So obviously, I think, no easy 637 00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:48.960 answers here. This has been a long saga. The saga will 638 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.160 continue. The feelings about these things complicated as they 639 00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:54.080 always are, as they always will be. 640 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:57.435 Audience, listeners, we really wanna hear from you. What do you 641 00:36:57.435 --> 00:37:00.475 think? Are you staying on TikTok? Are you leaving TikTok? 642 00:37:00.475 --> 00:37:03.115 Do you need a replacement if you leave it? 643 00:37:03.435 --> 00:37:06.875 And if so, where do you go to fill it? And why isn't that 644 00:37:06.875 --> 00:37:12.635 place reels? Alright. Thanks everybody. Thank you, Hans. 645 00:37:12.770 --> 00:37:13.810 Thank you Georgia. 646 00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:15.570 Yeah. Thanks Mike. This was helpful. 647 00:37:26.625 --> 00:37:28.625 That is the news we have for you this week. We're 648 00:37:28.625 --> 00:37:32.065 gonna be back here on the main feed on or around Thursday, 649 00:37:32.065 --> 00:37:39.985 02/05/2026 with a segment about Pornhub's 2025 in review dataset 650 00:37:39.990 --> 00:37:43.030 and what we can learn about the skyrocketing growth in 651 00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:49.750 popularity of safe for work content on the traditionally not 652 00:37:49.750 --> 00:37:55.865 safe for work platform. Neverpost is listener funded. 653 00:37:55.865 --> 00:37:58.425 That means, please imagine me pointing and wearing a really 654 00:37:58.425 --> 00:38:04.425 garish suit. We need you to keep this show going. 655 00:38:04.585 --> 00:38:09.030 Head on over to neverpo.st to give us 4 of your monthly 656 00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:12.630 dollars, and in return, we will continue to give you thoughtful 657 00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:16.070 and expertly crafted audio about a little thing you may have 658 00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:20.790 heard about, contemporary existence suffused with 659 00:38:20.790 --> 00:38:25.815 technology. Neverpo.st. Become a member. It's just $4 a month. 660 00:38:30.695 --> 00:38:34.055 Neverpost's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 661 00:38:34.055 --> 00:38:35.735 mysterious doctor first name last name. 662 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.560 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is 663 00:38:39.560 --> 00:38:42.840 Jason Oberholzer. The show's host, that's me, is Mike 664 00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:49.400 Grenada. There's no promise at the present, though the 665 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.265 present's not promise at all. The grifter flashes a glimmer 666 00:38:53.265 --> 00:38:54.785 like it was a sure thing. 667 00:38:55.265 --> 00:38:59.185 Clinging to these turns blind sides what's before the eye, a 668 00:38:59.185 --> 00:39:03.985 fist behind dice. I want distraction even more than you, 669 00:39:03.985 --> 00:39:08.150 but both of us lost the duel when our seconds went missing. 670 00:39:09.350 --> 00:39:14.550 Excerpt of Against Hope by Charles Bernstein. Never post is 671 00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:18.165 a production of charts and leisure and it's distributed by 672 00:39:18.165 --> 00:39:19.045 Radiotopia.