WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.165 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:15.165 --> 00:00:17.005 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:17.005 --> 00:00:21.565 Ragnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 10/21/2025 at 4 00:00:21.565 --> 00:00:27.565 09:32AM eastern, and we have a bubbling, swirling show for you 5 00:00:27.565 --> 00:00:31.330 this week. Georgia, and I mean, could it have been anyone else, 6 00:00:31.330 --> 00:00:35.330 talks to practitioner of the magical arts, Mahegan St. 7 00:00:35.330 --> 00:00:40.210 Pierre, about the rise and sudden spotlight on Etsy witches 8 00:00:40.210 --> 00:00:44.565 and how their approach compares to witchcraft as practiced for 9 00:00:44.565 --> 00:00:45.445 millennia. 10 00:00:45.445 --> 00:00:48.725 Georgia speaks as well to PhD candidate in forensic 11 00:00:48.725 --> 00:00:54.085 psychology, Alex Frampton, about the role witchcraft may play for 12 00:00:54.085 --> 00:01:00.810 witches as a community. And also video game menu music Halloween 13 00:01:01.290 --> 00:01:04.810 edition. But right now, we're going to take a quick break, 14 00:01:04.810 --> 00:01:07.130 you're going to listen to some ads unless you're on the member 15 00:01:07.130 --> 00:01:09.930 feed, and when we return, we're going to talk about a few of the 16 00:01:09.930 --> 00:01:12.865 things that have happened since the last time you heard from us. 17 00:01:16.945 --> 00:01:20.865 From my laboratory in the Castle East to the master bedroom where 18 00:01:20.865 --> 00:01:24.305 the vampires feast, the ghouls all came from their humble 19 00:01:24.305 --> 00:01:30.440 abodes to get a jolt from my five stories this week. An 20 00:01:30.440 --> 00:01:34.120 endless summer for you inside your phone. 21 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:37.080 Product designer, Laurent Delray, of Meta's Super 22 00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:40.715 Intelligence Lab, launched an iPhone app that shares a name 23 00:01:40.715 --> 00:01:44.475 with the 1966 surfing documentary, which will generate 24 00:01:44.475 --> 00:01:49.995 pictures of you on the vacations you didn't or couldn't take. The 25 00:01:49.995 --> 00:01:53.915 app is powered by Google's Gemini Nano Banana image model. 26 00:01:53.915 --> 00:01:57.230 I love writing sentences twenty twenty five. Here you are 27 00:01:57.230 --> 00:02:01.070 exploring a beach town, writes TechCrunch, or overlooking a 28 00:02:01.070 --> 00:02:04.910 European city from your balcony. There you are out shopping, 29 00:02:04.910 --> 00:02:07.950 having dinner with friends, or at a social gathering, end 30 00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:08.510 quote. 31 00:02:08.670 --> 00:02:12.785 Endless Summer will charge you $3.99 for 30 images past the 32 00:02:12.785 --> 00:02:18.385 trial, $17.99 for a 150, and $34.99 for 300, which is 33 00:02:18.385 --> 00:02:20.865 significantly cheaper than the all inclusive resort that's been 34 00:02:20.865 --> 00:02:24.700 advertising to you on Instagram. In a sense, Jean Baudrillard 35 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:28.140 writes, the photographic image materially translates the 36 00:02:28.140 --> 00:02:32.540 absence of reality, which, quoting Borges, is so obvious 37 00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:36.780 and so easily accepted because we have already the feeling that 38 00:02:36.780 --> 00:02:40.805 nothing is real. Such a phenomenology of reality's 39 00:02:40.805 --> 00:02:47.285 absence is usually impossible to achieve. Endless Summer is free 40 00:02:47.285 --> 00:02:54.450 to download on the Apple App Store. X has reported that it 41 00:02:54.450 --> 00:02:57.490 will begin redistributing disused and inactive usernames 42 00:02:57.490 --> 00:03:01.170 via what the company is calling the handles marketplace 43 00:03:01.170 --> 00:03:03.970 available only to paid X subscribers. 44 00:03:04.385 --> 00:03:08.065 Longer and alphanumeric handles will be reassigned for no 45 00:03:08.065 --> 00:03:12.225 additional cost, while shorter and more recognizable handles, 46 00:03:12.305 --> 00:03:16.305 those with higher demand for redistribution, will be sold 47 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.040 with prices starting at $2,500 according to Mashable. What the 48 00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:24.880 x trust and safety team or whatever is left of it at this 49 00:03:24.880 --> 00:03:28.080 point will do to combat impersonation, fraud, and other 50 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:34.025 chicanery as a result of this process is anyone's guess. The 51 00:03:40.345 --> 00:03:44.480 Cambridge University Library archives are home to countless 52 00:03:44.480 --> 00:03:49.280 letters, notebooks, photographs, scrolls, and now floppy disks. 53 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:54.240 In 2021, the library received the Hawking archive donated by 54 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:57.840 the family of the renowned theoretical physicist. In the 55 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:02.015 113 boxes of material, there were included a number of 56 00:04:02.015 --> 00:04:05.375 diskettes of various sizes and formats. 57 00:04:05.535 --> 00:04:08.335 To preserve these records and others like them, the BBC 58 00:04:08.335 --> 00:04:12.655 reports that archivists have had to turn to eBay, for example, to 59 00:04:12.655 --> 00:04:15.810 acquire the appropriate technology. For archivists 60 00:04:15.810 --> 00:04:19.330 today, the BBC writes, that means dozens of separate 61 00:04:19.330 --> 00:04:23.250 machines are needed to read discs of various sizes from 62 00:04:23.250 --> 00:04:26.690 different systems, and it often takes significant searching to 63 00:04:26.690 --> 00:04:31.170 track down these ancient devices everywhere from house clearance 64 00:04:30.795 --> 00:04:34.555 auctions to collector marketplaces. This has created 65 00:04:34.555 --> 00:04:38.075 concerns among archivists, historians, and archaeologists, 66 00:04:38.075 --> 00:04:41.035 they write, that future generations may face a sort of 67 00:04:41.035 --> 00:04:45.115 digital dark age when they look back for material from the past 68 00:04:45.115 --> 00:04:53.250 fifty years or so. Meta removed a Facebook group used by nearly 69 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:57.650 80,000 people to track the presence of ICE, US immigration 70 00:04:57.650 --> 00:05:02.095 and customs enforcement, across Chicago during its now weeks 71 00:05:02.095 --> 00:05:05.775 long deportation blitz across the city. ICE, citing a 72 00:05:05.775 --> 00:05:09.615 Chicagoland, was used to, quote, warn neighbors that federal 73 00:05:09.615 --> 00:05:12.990 agents are near schools, grocery stores, and other community 74 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:16.990 locations so they can take steps to protect themselves according 75 00:05:16.990 --> 00:05:18.590 to the Chicago Sun Times. 76 00:05:18.910 --> 00:05:21.550 The US Department of Justice requested the page's removal 77 00:05:21.550 --> 00:05:24.830 days after its existence was noted by dog food connoisseur 78 00:05:24.830 --> 00:05:28.145 Laura Loomer. A Meta spokesperson said, this group 79 00:05:28.145 --> 00:05:31.425 was removed for violating our policies against coordinated 80 00:05:31.425 --> 00:05:35.425 harm. It is unclear what harm is being referenced here. At the 81 00:05:35.425 --> 00:05:38.545 time of recording, the official Facebook pages for both ICE and 82 00:05:38.545 --> 00:05:43.220 DHS responsible for at least twenty one deaths in 2025, 83 00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:50.180 according to notice.org, remain accessible. And finally, in 84 00:05:50.180 --> 00:05:54.980 further Chicagoland news, the rat hole was likely no rat at 85 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:55.220 all. 86 00:05:55.555 --> 00:05:59.555 Nearly two years after the Chicago rat hole became a viral 87 00:05:59.555 --> 00:06:03.155 sensation, the Sun Times writes on Instagram, scientists have 88 00:06:03.155 --> 00:06:06.675 weighed in on the debate over what type of critter made the 89 00:06:06.675 --> 00:06:10.360 splat. The zoological mystery was solved by researchers at 90 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.640 University of Tennessee, Knoxville, who wrote there is a 91 00:06:13.640 --> 00:06:19.480 98.67% likelihood that the Chicago rat hole was a squirrel. 92 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.280 We'll put a link to the story in the show notes. You gotta go 93 00:06:22.280 --> 00:06:26.465 look for the diagrams alone. It is pure gold. 94 00:06:27.905 --> 00:06:30.945 In show news this week, we're gonna do these real quick. We 95 00:06:30.945 --> 00:06:35.745 won silver in the signal awards technology category. That's 96 00:06:35.745 --> 00:06:39.520 nice. That's very fun. When you tell your friends to listen to 97 00:06:39.520 --> 00:06:43.520 the show, please be sure to mention that we are multi award 98 00:06:43.520 --> 00:06:44.160 winning. 99 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.400 Congrats also to our pals Close All Tabs, who were also silver 100 00:06:48.400 --> 00:06:52.080 medalists, and to Killswitch, who got the gold. Nice work. 101 00:06:55.585 --> 00:07:00.465 Never post T shirts are printed, and they look good as hell. 102 00:07:01.265 --> 00:07:04.305 Everyone did an amazing job, and they're gonna begin shipping 103 00:07:04.305 --> 00:07:08.240 early November. We'll have more news once they're out about what 104 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.280 shirts we'll have in stock for you to buy if you missed the 105 00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:14.400 preorder, but it will be a very few. 106 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:21.635 A limited drop as the kids say. The Radiotopia fundraiser is 107 00:07:21.635 --> 00:07:24.675 starting in a week or so. We're gonna make a special upload just 108 00:07:24.675 --> 00:07:27.715 to explain what that is, how it works, and how it's different 109 00:07:27.715 --> 00:07:30.995 from the never post fundraiser that we just finished, but the 110 00:07:30.995 --> 00:07:34.275 long and short is it's a way to support every Radiotopia show 111 00:07:34.275 --> 00:07:38.330 all at once. Of it like a public media pledge Drive, but Avery 112 00:07:38.330 --> 00:07:40.410 Truffelman is there. Coming soon. 113 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:43.450 We have some upcoming livestreams on Monday, October 114 00:07:43.450 --> 00:07:47.370 27 at 11:30AM eastern. Some of the staff are gonna take to 115 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:53.365 Twitch to carve pumpkins. How festive. Grab a gourd to carve 116 00:07:53.365 --> 00:07:57.045 along if you are so inclined, or simply sit back and marvel at 117 00:07:57.045 --> 00:08:01.125 Georgia's claimed remarkable skill at this very specific 118 00:08:01.125 --> 00:08:03.445 task. Is anyone surprised? 119 00:08:03.685 --> 00:08:07.480 Not at all. And then on Monday, November 10 at 11:30AM eastern, 120 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.280 we're gonna be streaming an editorial meeting and carving up 121 00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:14.040 ideas. I want you to know that Hans added that line to the 122 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:18.375 script. Come to hear pitches and help shape upcoming segments 123 00:08:18.375 --> 00:08:21.255 that you're gonna hear on Never Post. It's gonna be a lark. 124 00:08:21.255 --> 00:08:25.815 Both will happen at twitch.tv forward /theneverpost. Follow us 125 00:08:25.815 --> 00:08:29.255 to get notified when we go live. And finally, hells bells 126 00:08:29.255 --> 00:08:35.280 pitches. We got so many. If you submitted a pitch for a segment, 127 00:08:35.280 --> 00:08:35.920 we got it. 128 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:38.640 We promise. We're working on getting back to everybody that 129 00:08:38.640 --> 00:08:41.280 we're interested in working with. If we don't get back to 130 00:08:41.280 --> 00:08:45.695 you, sorry, but please do not be discouraged. Please please 131 00:08:45.695 --> 00:08:49.135 please please please pitch us again the next time you come 132 00:08:49.135 --> 00:08:56.980 across a story and you think, oh, sounds like Neverpost. Okay. 133 00:08:56.980 --> 00:08:59.220 That's the news I have for you this week. In this episode, 134 00:08:59.220 --> 00:09:02.900 Georgia talks with Mahegan Saint Pierre and Alex Frampton about 135 00:09:02.900 --> 00:09:06.020 witches online, offline, and the nature of the gulf between the 136 00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:09.860 two. But first, in our interstitials this week, dredged 137 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:16.265 from the depths of archive.org, spooky video game menu music. 138 00:09:16.425 --> 00:09:21.225 Selections include Elvira, Castlevania, of course, Shaken, 139 00:09:21.225 --> 00:09:26.185 and Gauntlet. You can find a full list in the show notes. 140 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:31.560 What do you think people who are going to 141 00:11:31.560 --> 00:11:33.560 Etsy for curses are looking for? 142 00:11:33.800 --> 00:11:38.605 Mahigan St. Pierre: God knows. God knows. Petty resolution 143 00:11:38.605 --> 00:11:43.005 maybe or desperation. I doubt it's desperation because usually 144 00:11:43.005 --> 00:11:47.165 desperation drives you to, like, dark alleys, not etsy.com. 145 00:11:48.205 --> 00:11:50.900 That's Mehegan St. Pierre, a practicing witch 146 00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:54.020 who offers services online through their business Kitchen 147 00:11:54.020 --> 00:12:00.580 Toad. Not on Etsy, mind you. Astandardissue.com and a Patreon 148 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:02.180 and a podcast. 149 00:12:02.180 --> 00:12:04.815 Mahigan St. Pierre: For me specifically, the witch is 150 00:12:04.815 --> 00:12:08.895 someone who situates themselves within the world, within the 151 00:12:08.895 --> 00:12:13.775 cosmos as a person of agency who, you know, traffics with the 152 00:12:13.775 --> 00:12:18.720 living, the dead, and nature spirits all around us in any 153 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:22.560 way, shape, form that might show up. The witch is someone who is 154 00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:25.520 an intercessor between the world of the living as well as the 155 00:12:25.520 --> 00:12:30.720 world of spirit. Right? The witch often takes on a role that 156 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:37.485 is part priest, part community therapist, part healer, you 157 00:12:37.485 --> 00:12:38.845 know, part sorcerer. 158 00:12:41.325 --> 00:12:44.765 What does that mean? Well, in simplified terms, 159 00:12:45.140 --> 00:12:49.060 the witch community exists to replace the social hierarchy 160 00:12:49.060 --> 00:12:52.980 that would otherwise reject them. A witch defines themselves 161 00:12:53.060 --> 00:12:56.740 for themselves. They have a spiritual practice that is 162 00:12:56.740 --> 00:13:00.485 grounded in the physical natural world. But what that practice 163 00:13:00.485 --> 00:13:04.485 looks like is also determined by each individual witch. 164 00:13:04.805 --> 00:13:08.725 It can mean reading tarot or doing someone's birth chart. It 165 00:13:08.725 --> 00:13:11.605 can also mean calling upon spirits to protect yourself or 166 00:13:11.605 --> 00:13:15.290 others. And even if a witch's practice just focuses on 167 00:13:15.290 --> 00:13:19.210 themself, witches are an extremely community focused 168 00:13:19.210 --> 00:13:24.810 group. Historically, to be a witch is to be an other. To be 169 00:13:24.810 --> 00:13:25.610 othered. 170 00:13:25.850 --> 00:13:29.935 The term implies ostracization, isolation from the broader 171 00:13:29.935 --> 00:13:33.215 community, and the promise of violence by that broader 172 00:13:33.215 --> 00:13:36.975 community. But like many terms meant to do harm, the label 173 00:13:36.975 --> 00:13:40.495 witch and the practice of witchcraft have also been co 174 00:13:40.495 --> 00:13:44.230 opted to be signals of empowerment. These terms have 175 00:13:44.230 --> 00:13:47.670 been redefined to suit a multitude of individual 176 00:13:47.670 --> 00:13:52.710 interests. This process has played out in witchcraft online 177 00:13:52.870 --> 00:14:03.695 over the last decade or so. I wanted to talk to McKeegan about 178 00:14:03.695 --> 00:14:08.095 witches generally, online witches specifically, and Etsy 179 00:14:08.095 --> 00:14:13.215 witches even more specifically after the whole Charlie Kirk 180 00:14:13.215 --> 00:14:13.535 thing. 181 00:14:16.630 --> 00:14:20.310 Three days before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, Jezebel posted 182 00:14:20.310 --> 00:14:24.390 an article with the headline, quote, we paid some Etsy witches 183 00:14:24.390 --> 00:14:28.230 to curse Charlie Kirk. The article has since been removed, 184 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:32.555 but in it, the author described how easy it was to pick out a 185 00:14:32.555 --> 00:14:35.995 curse. She compared it to being as difficult as buying a phone 186 00:14:35.995 --> 00:14:40.555 charger. The curse was supposed to be a low level inconvenience, 187 00:14:40.715 --> 00:14:46.110 like getting a bad haircut. But, obviously, things turned out 188 00:14:46.110 --> 00:14:46.910 differently. 189 00:14:49.790 --> 00:14:53.870 The witch responsible for the curse, named Priestess Lillian, 190 00:14:54.030 --> 00:14:57.390 denied her workings had anything to do with Charlie Kirk's death. 191 00:14:57.790 --> 00:15:02.245 Then she kind of took it back and said how her workings are 192 00:15:02.245 --> 00:15:06.245 effective and that curses can have unintended consequences. 193 00:15:06.725 --> 00:15:09.605 But it doesn't really matter what she said. People wanted to 194 00:15:09.605 --> 00:15:14.010 congratulate her and to hire her to go after more politicians. It 195 00:15:14.010 --> 00:15:17.690 also inspired, I mean, quite literally a witch hunt. 196 00:15:17.770 --> 00:15:21.850 Priestess Leland received a barrage of death threats. Etsy 197 00:15:21.850 --> 00:15:26.810 banned her. In the denouement of all of this, I wanted to know 198 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:31.225 what is it like being a witch? What is it like being a witch 199 00:15:31.305 --> 00:15:35.465 online? And maybe most intensely, I needed to know how 200 00:15:35.465 --> 00:15:40.745 does Internet witchcraft work in comparison to the non Internet 201 00:15:40.745 --> 00:15:41.145 kind? 202 00:15:49.140 --> 00:15:52.340 If you read the newsletter or listened to our Halloween 203 00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:56.020 special last year, it should come as no surprise that I, 204 00:15:56.020 --> 00:15:59.620 producer Georgia, have a personal connection to this 205 00:15:59.620 --> 00:16:03.665 topic. I've practiced some kind of occult spirituality my whole 206 00:16:03.665 --> 00:16:07.265 life. I started reading my birth chart and collecting crystals in 207 00:16:07.265 --> 00:16:11.185 elementary school. I read my cards regularly and will do 208 00:16:11.185 --> 00:16:15.080 anyone's tarot if they ask me. If someone I know had a baby, 209 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.040 I'll make the baby's birth chart for the parents. 210 00:16:18.520 --> 00:16:22.040 I don't really do any kind of spell work apart from cleansing 211 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:25.080 my apartment when it's called for, or maybe doing some full 212 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:30.035 moon rituals. My practice is pretty private. But there's an 213 00:16:30.035 --> 00:16:34.275 entire world of witchcraft that is very much a business. If 214 00:16:34.275 --> 00:16:36.755 you're down on your luck and looking for a metaphysical 215 00:16:36.755 --> 00:16:41.155 solution to your woes, there are witches ready and able to help. 216 00:16:41.475 --> 00:16:45.340 Historically, the purchasing of sorceress services is something 217 00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:47.420 you had to go seek out. 218 00:16:47.900 --> 00:16:51.580 By virtue of witchcraft being the work of the other, anyone 219 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:54.940 who might be interested in purchasing spell work had to 220 00:16:54.940 --> 00:16:58.925 leave the comfort of more quote unquote polite society and go 221 00:16:58.925 --> 00:17:04.205 find it. Centuries ago, that might have meant going into the 222 00:17:04.205 --> 00:17:07.565 woods or walking down a dark alley that leads to another dark 223 00:17:07.565 --> 00:17:11.210 alley that leads to an unmarked door behind a brothel. Witches 224 00:17:11.210 --> 00:17:15.530 were harder to find, and that was often by design. But now, 225 00:17:15.930 --> 00:17:18.970 finding a witch is as easy as knowing the right search terms. 226 00:17:19.690 --> 00:17:23.965 If you go to etsy.com and look up the word curse, you get 227 00:17:23.965 --> 00:17:26.925 exactly 1,280 results. 228 00:17:27.165 --> 00:17:31.245 Search the word spell, and you get the same number. I don't 229 00:17:31.245 --> 00:17:34.045 think this is some cosmic coincidence either. I think it's 230 00:17:34.045 --> 00:17:36.125 just the maximum number of searchable products that Etsy 231 00:17:36.125 --> 00:17:40.320 allows. There's hexes to financially ruin someone. 232 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.600 There's love spells and spells to block love spells. 233 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.440 Etsy witches get around the intangibility of their services 234 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.640 by listing spell work under the category of entertainment. 235 00:17:51.225 --> 00:17:56.665 Product names are outrageously long. Things like bring back 236 00:17:56.665 --> 00:18:00.425 stubborn x, return to me, come back casting, love obsession 237 00:18:00.425 --> 00:18:04.310 spell, love ritual for your stubborn target, bring him back 238 00:18:04.310 --> 00:18:10.070 love spell. Or 5 k to 10 k fast money spell casting, instant 239 00:18:10.070 --> 00:18:13.350 cash spell for quick results, powerful wealth ritual, 240 00:18:13.350 --> 00:18:17.705 immediate financial success, same hour or day. Etsy is the 241 00:18:17.705 --> 00:18:19.145 Timu of sorcery. 242 00:18:20.105 --> 00:18:23.625 The prices are also pretty comparable to Timu. That 243 00:18:23.625 --> 00:18:29.065 stubborn ex spell would put you back $35. At Mahegan's shop, a 244 00:18:29.065 --> 00:18:34.610 sweetening ritual costs twice that amount. Where does Etsy 245 00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:39.490 exist as a platform for magic in the community? Is it reputable? 246 00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:40.370 I don't 247 00:18:40.370 --> 00:18:43.970 Mahigan St. Pierre: think so. I don't know that it is. I don't 248 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:49.305 know anyone in my circles and who I consider peers, who I 249 00:18:49.305 --> 00:18:53.545 consider to be like leading voices in this community, you 250 00:18:53.545 --> 00:18:58.490 know, this broader community that does Etsy. To me, I've 251 00:18:58.490 --> 00:19:02.170 always conceptualized Etsy as this place where you buy like 252 00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:04.970 packed with the 49 legions of hell. 253 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:07.450 Basically, something that sounds scary, but 254 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:09.210 doesn't necessarily mean anything. 255 00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:11.370 Mahigan St. Pierre: That kind of thing rather than actually 256 00:19:11.370 --> 00:19:14.885 working with a practitioner directly. I think that the model 257 00:19:14.885 --> 00:19:18.245 of purchasing something through Etsy, getting like an automated 258 00:19:18.245 --> 00:19:23.045 email, and then like maybe a reading, maybe a picture. Who 259 00:19:23.045 --> 00:19:24.885 knows if it's the same if it's the same picture sent to 260 00:19:24.885 --> 00:19:27.830 everyone, you know what I mean? But it's extremely impersonal. 261 00:19:27.830 --> 00:19:31.350 And I think that by removing the person from the actual process 262 00:19:31.350 --> 00:19:34.550 of, you know, working services, you're no longer doing client 263 00:19:34.550 --> 00:19:37.110 work, you are churning out some bullshit. 264 00:19:37.910 --> 00:19:41.135 Their shop, Kitchen Toad, offers a wide 265 00:19:41.135 --> 00:19:45.215 range of services. Things like cleansing rituals, handmade 266 00:19:45.215 --> 00:19:49.535 charms, and the option to book a reading or a consultation. All 267 00:19:49.535 --> 00:19:53.375 available online for any client who crosses the digital 268 00:19:53.375 --> 00:19:57.640 threshold. And this isn't just an add to cart hit purchase 269 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.920 situation. It's very involved. 270 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:03.320 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's an intake form. You know, you give 271 00:20:03.320 --> 00:20:06.040 me your full name, your date of birth, a picture of yourself, 272 00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:09.715 what you need out of this. And then once I have that money's 273 00:20:09.715 --> 00:20:12.995 transferred, everything like that, then, you know, I usually 274 00:20:12.995 --> 00:20:15.235 get in touch with people, let them know when it's gonna be 275 00:20:15.235 --> 00:20:17.795 performed. And then depending on if they want divination 276 00:20:17.795 --> 00:20:20.355 performed afterwards or they wanted a recap, which is 277 00:20:20.355 --> 00:20:23.610 essentially a candle burning reading. Then at that point, 278 00:20:23.610 --> 00:20:26.890 once the working is performed, there's pictures sent to you 279 00:20:26.890 --> 00:20:30.330 and, you know, a description of what happened, what I did, any 280 00:20:30.330 --> 00:20:32.890 omens that came through, any sort of visions, anything like 281 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:35.130 that, as well as the results of divination. 282 00:20:35.785 --> 00:20:37.785 The relationship between Mahegan and 283 00:20:37.785 --> 00:20:41.385 their client is extremely intimate, and it's completely 284 00:20:41.385 --> 00:20:45.225 unique depending on the person. If the situation is more 285 00:20:45.225 --> 00:20:48.745 complicated, say, if you want a curse to be lifted off of you 286 00:20:48.745 --> 00:20:52.230 and there are lots of energies at play, then this process is 287 00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:57.270 also more nuanced. Maheegan caters to each person's needs. 288 00:20:57.750 --> 00:21:01.110 One client might need a talisman to help protect them. Others 289 00:21:01.110 --> 00:21:01.830 might not. 290 00:21:02.550 --> 00:21:05.565 Sometimes during these consultations, Maheegan decides 291 00:21:05.565 --> 00:21:09.245 that spell work isn't even what a person needs at all. 292 00:21:09.325 --> 00:21:10.925 Mahigan St. Pierre: After the holidays, there's usually an 293 00:21:10.925 --> 00:21:13.965 uptick in, like, cleansing work and then removal work and those 294 00:21:13.965 --> 00:21:16.285 kinds of things because people come away from the holidays 295 00:21:16.285 --> 00:21:19.405 feeling icky and feeling, like, spiritually drained and such. 296 00:21:19.850 --> 00:21:22.730 And so a lot of people will come and inquire whether or not they 297 00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:25.770 were cursed. And most of the time, it's just like, no, your 298 00:21:25.770 --> 00:21:30.410 relatives just suck. I'm gonna be so real with you. Mima Mima 299 00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:31.770 is not a great influence on you. 300 00:21:33.345 --> 00:21:36.065 Through their online business, Mohegan is able 301 00:21:36.065 --> 00:21:39.585 to foster a community of clients, many of whom have been 302 00:21:39.585 --> 00:21:43.985 coming to them for years. And Mohegan's work is very 303 00:21:43.985 --> 00:21:47.550 emotionally taxing. In order to know what any given person 304 00:21:47.550 --> 00:21:53.070 needs, they need to know a lot about that person. Fears, 305 00:21:53.150 --> 00:21:59.425 traumas, resentments, insecurities. On Etsy, that 306 00:21:59.425 --> 00:22:03.105 client practitioner relationship is replaced with the promise of, 307 00:22:03.105 --> 00:22:04.625 as Mihigan said I 308 00:22:04.625 --> 00:22:06.705 fought my legions in hell. 309 00:22:07.505 --> 00:22:10.065 Galloping to take vengeance on your behalf. 310 00:22:11.330 --> 00:22:18.850 All fluff. Demonic fluff, sure, but no substance. But that kind 311 00:22:18.850 --> 00:22:24.205 of fluff sells online. It's outrageously popular, and it's 312 00:22:24.205 --> 00:22:27.245 the most common flavor of witchcraft that shows up on my 313 00:22:27.245 --> 00:22:28.925 feeds unsummoned. 314 00:22:29.085 --> 00:22:31.885 I regularly see people posting videos about how they quote 315 00:22:31.885 --> 00:22:36.765 unquote hired an Etsy witch to, I don't know, make their ex 316 00:22:36.765 --> 00:22:41.210 boyfriend go bald. This mainstreamification of 317 00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:45.210 witchcraft is mostly about what kind of post you can make about 318 00:22:45.210 --> 00:22:50.410 it. The term Etsy witch has become kind of a meme, like the 319 00:22:50.410 --> 00:22:52.985 Charlie Kirk thing, like a lot of things. 320 00:22:53.705 --> 00:22:55.945 I paid three Etsy witches to draw my soul mate, 321 00:22:55.945 --> 00:22:57.785 tonight, we're gonna find out if they actually drew the same 322 00:22:57.785 --> 00:22:58.185 person. 323 00:22:58.185 --> 00:23:00.265 I paid, well, technically speaking, two Etsy 324 00:23:00.265 --> 00:23:03.720 witches. One for good luck, and then one for another thing that 325 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:05.400 we're keeping off the Internet, and that's fine. 326 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.840 Yesterday morning at 8AM, I paid an Etsy witch. She 327 00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:12.440 casted four spells for me. Shout out to my Etsy witch. I wanna 328 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:15.640 tell you guys about this until I thought it actually worked, but, 329 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:16.360 bitch, it worked. 330 00:23:17.955 --> 00:23:20.275 It's not entirely clear if the people who 331 00:23:20.275 --> 00:23:24.435 book workings from Etsy witches actually believe that curses and 332 00:23:24.435 --> 00:23:29.555 spells are real. Frankly, it might not really matter. The 333 00:23:29.555 --> 00:23:34.220 point is the post. The sharing of the fact that you did it. A 334 00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:35.820 kind of wink and a nod. 335 00:23:35.820 --> 00:23:40.060 Like, we all know this is a joke. And as Maheegan explained 336 00:23:40.060 --> 00:23:43.580 to me, sharing this work is usually a pretty big no no. 337 00:23:43.985 --> 00:23:46.785 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's this sort of like, this is hush-hush, 338 00:23:46.785 --> 00:23:49.665 you know? Yes, we are online doing things. It's a very 339 00:23:49.665 --> 00:23:52.465 strange thing to kind of compute. Because it's like 340 00:23:52.465 --> 00:23:55.025 you're public and you're saying, yes, hire me for these things. 341 00:23:55.185 --> 00:23:57.825 But at the same time, there's a level of respect that needs to 342 00:23:57.825 --> 00:24:01.050 be understood that it's like, but this isn't for other people 343 00:24:01.050 --> 00:24:02.330 to see necessarily. 344 00:24:03.690 --> 00:24:06.890 Through Etsy, spell work isn't treated as a 345 00:24:06.890 --> 00:24:10.090 communal interpersonal exchange of energy that is best handled 346 00:24:10.090 --> 00:24:14.250 privately. You're buying a spell from the same place that you buy 347 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:19.205 a cheap red sash that says, Huzzah, 'tis my birthday in old 348 00:24:19.205 --> 00:24:24.805 English typeface. Which like, that's fine. It's just something 349 00:24:24.805 --> 00:24:25.365 different. 350 00:24:25.365 --> 00:24:26.645 Mahigan St. Pierre: They're going through something or 351 00:24:26.645 --> 00:24:28.645 they're hanging out with their friends or what have you. And 352 00:24:28.645 --> 00:24:30.485 like, you know, they're having fun and they're like, oh my god, 353 00:24:30.485 --> 00:24:31.810 what if we book a spell? 354 00:24:31.810 --> 00:24:34.850 And that's exciting. Right? A little white 355 00:24:34.850 --> 00:24:40.370 wine, a little hex, just another night with the girls. On Etsy, 356 00:24:40.530 --> 00:24:43.490 witchcraft is presented in the way a sideshow at a carnival 357 00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:47.955 might present it. With skulls and big capital letters and the 358 00:24:47.955 --> 00:24:51.635 promise that this curse will drive someone to the brink of 359 00:24:51.635 --> 00:24:52.515 madness. 360 00:24:56.435 --> 00:25:01.200 The product images are often AI imagery of the kind of stuff 361 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:05.520 you'd expect. Women with glowing eyes and jet black hair staring 362 00:25:05.520 --> 00:25:10.255 intensely from behind a cauldron. If the listing 363 00:25:10.255 --> 00:25:14.095 mentions anything about demons, you'll be treated to the AI 364 00:25:14.095 --> 00:25:18.495 generated image of a dozen Snarling, frogging nast of 365 00:25:18.495 --> 00:25:22.015 terror. As if these very same creatures are waiting at the 366 00:25:22.015 --> 00:25:32.800 ready to torment your cheating ex. That is thrilling, but 367 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:33.840 impersonal. 368 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:38.225 It's the contentification of witchcraft, making it a product 369 00:25:38.225 --> 00:25:42.305 you can pay for in four interest free installments with Klarna. 370 00:25:42.705 --> 00:25:47.185 Not something which encourages deeper spiritual inquiry, which, 371 00:25:47.185 --> 00:25:50.385 you know, if you're out here wishing baldness upon your ex, 372 00:25:51.110 --> 00:25:52.550 maybe that would be good for you. 373 00:25:52.550 --> 00:25:55.430 Mahigan St. Pierre: The fact that it's impersonal also means 374 00:25:55.430 --> 00:25:57.510 that it's easy. And the fact that it's usually cheaper is 375 00:25:57.510 --> 00:26:01.670 also easy. Right? The fact that you don't have to actually 376 00:26:01.670 --> 00:26:05.110 confront your desire for why you're booking this work by 377 00:26:05.110 --> 00:26:09.205 talking to a professional about it, means that you can book it, 378 00:26:09.205 --> 00:26:12.325 set it, forget it, hope for the best, or even set it out of your 379 00:26:12.325 --> 00:26:12.565 mind. 380 00:26:12.565 --> 00:26:14.245 Because it was $15. Who the fuck cares? 381 00:26:14.565 --> 00:26:17.125 From this perspective, Etsy witches serve 382 00:26:17.125 --> 00:26:20.510 the same purpose as a Zoltar machine. One of those 383 00:26:20.510 --> 00:26:24.430 animatronic fortune tellers you see at arcades. Sure, you know 384 00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:27.390 that the fortune you're getting is one of a finite number of 385 00:26:27.390 --> 00:26:31.710 options randomly handed to you. But you still pay for it 386 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:36.385 because, well, it's fun. And people love fun, which for 387 00:26:36.385 --> 00:26:40.625 witches is sort of a blessing and a curse. 388 00:26:44.145 --> 00:26:47.185 Mahegan explained to me that being a witch online means 389 00:26:47.185 --> 00:26:49.585 maintaining a kind of public performance. 390 00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:51.720 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's always a component when you're 391 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.520 doing public spiritual and magical work of performance, of 392 00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:59.080 pageantry, of, selling a story, selling an experience, selling a 393 00:26:59.080 --> 00:27:01.560 feeling. In the same way that there's branding for, you know, 394 00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:04.565 skincare and perfume companies, it's the same thing. The 395 00:27:04.565 --> 00:27:08.565 pageantry is a necessary aspect of this to a certain extent 396 00:27:08.645 --> 00:27:14.325 because that is what draws people in. And the showing off 397 00:27:14.325 --> 00:27:17.525 is also a way to communicate competence. 398 00:27:18.410 --> 00:27:21.290 Witchcraft has a long history of showmanship, 399 00:27:21.290 --> 00:27:24.650 and showing off your skills is a way to attract would be clients. 400 00:27:25.050 --> 00:27:29.130 And the Internet lends itself beautifully to pageantry. When 401 00:27:29.130 --> 00:27:31.770 your posts are shared more readily by an algorithm that 402 00:27:31.770 --> 00:27:35.795 favors bright colors, human faces, and striking visuals, 403 00:27:36.035 --> 00:27:39.635 then social media could be the perfect place to perform your 404 00:27:39.635 --> 00:27:42.995 spell work in front of a potentially endless crowd of 405 00:27:42.995 --> 00:27:48.720 would be clients. But as Mihigan told me, the kind of things that 406 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.000 tend to attract the most people to a witch's online storefront 407 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.840 aren't things like spell work or public displays of spiritual 408 00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:59.680 ability. It has nothing to do with skill at all. 409 00:28:00.595 --> 00:28:05.315 It's whether or not you, quote, unquote, look or act like a 410 00:28:05.315 --> 00:29:54.855 witch. After the break, we learn more about what that means. When 411 00:29:54.855 --> 00:29:58.615 it comes to doing witchcraft online, being a skilled sorcerer 412 00:29:58.615 --> 00:30:03.415 matters less than looking like a witch. And Maheegan told me that 413 00:30:03.415 --> 00:30:07.015 this game of aesthetic telephone is a common thing for the more 414 00:30:07.015 --> 00:30:08.295 popular witchy influencers. 415 00:30:08.540 --> 00:30:09.980 Mahigan St. Pierre: They remodeled their kitchen to look 416 00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:14.620 like practical magic. And, you know, they talked about folklore 417 00:30:14.620 --> 00:30:18.780 that they read in a book twenty years ago once or twice. And 418 00:30:18.940 --> 00:30:21.500 then they just created this aesthetic around themselves, and 419 00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:24.375 that's what that's what it is. Right? And they have hundreds of 420 00:30:24.375 --> 00:30:25.335 thousands of followers. 421 00:30:25.655 --> 00:30:28.295 Hundreds of thousands of followers is 422 00:30:28.295 --> 00:30:32.375 achieved by mirroring the aesthetic of the expected, the 423 00:30:32.375 --> 00:30:37.335 inoffensive, the friendly, the ooky spooky, but not scary. 424 00:30:37.655 --> 00:30:39.710 Frankly, the caricature. 425 00:30:41.710 --> 00:30:44.030 So we're talking about the pointed hat. We're 426 00:30:44.030 --> 00:30:46.910 talking about potentially the green face, depending on kind of 427 00:30:46.910 --> 00:30:50.190 how far back into Disney we're going. You know, the the grown 428 00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:53.465 laugh, the black hats, the frogs, the broomsticks, the big 429 00:30:53.465 --> 00:30:54.105 cauldron. 430 00:30:54.105 --> 00:30:57.785 That's Alex Frampton, a PhD candidate of 431 00:30:57.785 --> 00:31:02.265 forensic psychology who co wrote a study in 2022 called In the 432 00:31:02.265 --> 00:31:06.000 Broom Closet, exploring the role of online communities in shaping 433 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.400 the identities of contemporary witchcraft practitioners. In her 434 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.080 study, she spoke to a group of 16 witches who found community 435 00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:17.760 through online groups. And as she explained to me, these 436 00:31:17.760 --> 00:31:21.235 groups can each have their own relationship to stereotypes of 437 00:31:21.235 --> 00:31:23.715 what witches are and what they look like. 438 00:31:23.715 --> 00:31:26.435 So, you know, all of these things are very 439 00:31:26.995 --> 00:31:29.635 cartoonish. It's very cartoonish depictions. 440 00:31:30.195 --> 00:31:32.675 Some of the witches that Alex spoke to did 441 00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:36.460 find community sometimes through these stereotypes. By either 442 00:31:36.460 --> 00:31:40.220 subverting them, joking about them, or even reflecting them in 443 00:31:40.220 --> 00:31:45.340 their own way. And to her point, the stereotypes are really for 444 00:31:45.340 --> 00:31:49.715 the witch to use or reject as they see fit. If you want to 445 00:31:49.715 --> 00:31:52.755 turn your kitchen into the practical magic house, there's 446 00:31:52.755 --> 00:31:57.235 nothing inherently wrong with that. If anything, it might do 447 00:31:57.235 --> 00:32:00.595 work to invite more witch curious people into the fold. 448 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:05.770 As the concept of the occult becomes more cartoonish, unless 449 00:32:06.090 --> 00:32:11.290 actually frightening, it becomes safe. And by being safe, for 450 00:32:11.290 --> 00:32:14.890 some, it can serve as an easier way into that world. 451 00:32:15.165 --> 00:32:17.405 Sometimes it can be a gateway. You might be into 452 00:32:17.405 --> 00:32:20.365 the aesthetic and actually gain some real insights into your 453 00:32:20.365 --> 00:32:22.525 values and actually do develop a practice. 454 00:32:23.005 --> 00:32:26.365 And one of the most potent examples of this is, 455 00:32:26.605 --> 00:32:31.530 well, practical magic. The green faced crone is transmogrified 456 00:32:31.530 --> 00:32:35.530 into Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, who are young and hot 457 00:32:35.530 --> 00:32:39.930 and cool and make it seem like we too could be a little witchy 458 00:32:39.930 --> 00:32:44.055 if we wanted to be. It's a deliciously inviting world of 459 00:32:44.055 --> 00:32:48.535 witchcraft to operate within. I wanna live in that world. And if 460 00:32:48.535 --> 00:32:52.135 I saw a witch online who was offering her services surrounded 461 00:32:52.135 --> 00:32:56.860 by the aesthetic signifiers of practical magic, I mean, it 462 00:32:56.860 --> 00:32:58.140 might work on me. 463 00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:04.540 And again, that isn't necessarily bad. But there is 464 00:33:04.780 --> 00:33:05.900 tension here. 465 00:33:06.300 --> 00:33:09.260 And that's because just looking the part 466 00:33:09.885 --> 00:33:13.325 isn't always the same as embodying it. What you do lose 467 00:33:13.325 --> 00:33:16.925 kind of if you kind of only went as far as the aesthetic is you 468 00:33:16.925 --> 00:33:19.885 do lose that connection to history and you do lose that 469 00:33:19.885 --> 00:33:22.605 connection to, okay, why do people practice witchcraft in 470 00:33:22.605 --> 00:33:23.165 the first place? 471 00:33:25.180 --> 00:33:27.820 Witchcraft looks different for everyone who 472 00:33:27.820 --> 00:33:32.700 practices it. There's no bible, no unified spiritual leader. You 473 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:36.060 get to define how your practice looks and who you choose to 474 00:33:36.060 --> 00:33:40.065 invite into it, if anyone at all. There's huge variations 475 00:33:40.065 --> 00:33:43.745 between practitioners of witchcraft. But Alex explained 476 00:33:43.745 --> 00:33:47.345 to me that from the people she spoke to in her study, there was 477 00:33:47.345 --> 00:33:49.425 one big overlapping factor. 478 00:33:49.425 --> 00:33:51.760 They'd experienced some sort of 479 00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:55.120 exclusion in some capacity, some kind of social exclusion. So 480 00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:59.280 whether it was, you know, the the more kind of wider female 481 00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:03.505 experience of misogyny or it could be something like to do 482 00:34:03.505 --> 00:34:06.065 with their health, whether it was their mental health or their 483 00:34:06.065 --> 00:34:09.265 physical health. But in some way, they felt that society had 484 00:34:09.265 --> 00:34:13.745 been quite exclusionary. Any any kind of social exclusion, kind 485 00:34:13.745 --> 00:34:17.440 of finding witchcraft, it provided, you know, a place for 486 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:21.280 them to to find their tribe, so to speak, or to be able to 487 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:24.240 express parts of their identities that maybe would not 488 00:34:24.240 --> 00:34:26.480 be so accepted in mainstream society. 489 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.065 And for the intrepid witch who wants to find 490 00:34:30.065 --> 00:34:32.945 a community of like minded people who share in the same 491 00:34:32.945 --> 00:34:37.185 experiences, the Internet is great for that. But it's also 492 00:34:37.185 --> 00:34:41.665 great for, like I said, showmanship. And that's where 493 00:34:41.665 --> 00:34:47.820 the tension lies. Performance is part of the craft, especially if 494 00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:51.740 you're offering services online. But there does seem to be a 495 00:34:51.740 --> 00:34:56.265 limit to how much one should rely on that performance at the 496 00:34:56.265 --> 00:34:59.945 sake of ignoring that shared experience of marginalization. 497 00:35:00.425 --> 00:35:02.025 Mahigan St. Pierre: Throughout history and traditionally 498 00:35:02.025 --> 00:35:04.745 speaking, where you're gonna find your conjurers, your 499 00:35:04.745 --> 00:35:08.505 witches, etcetera, is gonna be within the context of community. 500 00:35:08.585 --> 00:35:12.290 The act of sorcery, the act of enacting change through magic or 501 00:35:12.290 --> 00:35:16.290 through traffic with spirits is something that is really 502 00:35:16.290 --> 00:35:20.370 difficult to do outside of the context of community simply for 503 00:35:20.370 --> 00:35:24.255 the fact that if, you know, you're not engaging with 504 00:35:24.255 --> 00:35:26.815 community, engaging with people around you and you're not, you 505 00:35:26.815 --> 00:35:30.415 know, taking on other people's problems, there's only so much 506 00:35:30.415 --> 00:35:33.935 that you can really do for yourself. Right? And so you then 507 00:35:33.935 --> 00:35:37.850 steer away from sorcery to then just spirituality. Right? 508 00:35:37.850 --> 00:35:42.410 And that's where the line kind of draws itself between devotion 509 00:35:42.410 --> 00:35:46.330 or worship versus actually working spirits. 510 00:35:47.690 --> 00:35:50.490 It feels like online, the process breaks down 511 00:35:50.490 --> 00:35:54.935 like this. Showmanship gets attention. That attention might, 512 00:35:54.935 --> 00:35:58.935 at first, form a kind of community. But after a while, if 513 00:35:58.935 --> 00:36:03.015 you're not careful, that desire for showmanship can easily eat 514 00:36:03.015 --> 00:36:07.420 away at any real creation of interpersonal relationships. The 515 00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:11.100 old razzle dazzle does work at getting more people through the 516 00:36:11.100 --> 00:36:11.660 door. 517 00:36:12.060 --> 00:36:15.980 But if that's the only thing you offer, then whatever community 518 00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:22.745 that once existed kind of falls away. And to a degree, I think 519 00:36:22.745 --> 00:36:25.705 that's kind of the tried and true story of the Internet as a 520 00:36:25.705 --> 00:36:29.785 marketplace for business. In a visually dominant digital world, 521 00:36:30.025 --> 00:36:34.900 attention is an undeniable currency. And if you're willing 522 00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:38.340 to sacrifice community for the sake of getting more attention 523 00:36:38.580 --> 00:36:42.340 and therefore more money in the bank, then the Internet is a 524 00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:49.205 flawless place for business. Witchcraft is not the only group 525 00:36:49.205 --> 00:36:51.365 that has had this kind of flattening happen to them 526 00:36:51.365 --> 00:36:52.085 online. 527 00:36:52.325 --> 00:36:56.245 But it's a very good example of this perfect formula. The 528 00:36:56.245 --> 00:37:00.405 overvaluing of the aesthetic of a niche group, plus the use of 529 00:37:00.405 --> 00:37:06.840 that aesthetic to make money. But it's not really money that's 530 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.920 the problem here. Witchcraft has always been a business. The 531 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:12.840 trouble here is commercialization. 532 00:37:13.505 --> 00:37:17.025 It's taking a centuries old practice of empowerment through 533 00:37:17.025 --> 00:37:22.065 agency and turning it into an AI image of a black haired witch 534 00:37:22.065 --> 00:37:31.710 glowering in front of The Internet should be a great place 535 00:37:31.710 --> 00:37:36.510 for witchcraft as an industry. And for Mehegan, it is. But it's 536 00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:39.070 also just a piece of the puzzle. 537 00:37:39.230 --> 00:37:41.630 Mahigan St. Pierre: In terms of offering services, it's not for 538 00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:45.685 everyone. Right? Offering the services part is kind of a thing 539 00:37:45.685 --> 00:37:47.845 you might be drawn to or that you might not be drawn to 540 00:37:47.845 --> 00:37:51.365 depending on your own practice. But for me, there always needs 541 00:37:51.365 --> 00:37:54.485 to be a component whether or not you're charging for services of 542 00:37:54.485 --> 00:37:58.325 acting on behalf of the living towards the world of spirits and 543 00:37:58.325 --> 00:38:00.485 then on behalf of spirits towards the world of the living. 544 00:38:01.120 --> 00:38:03.920 So you're really like an agent of change and agent of 545 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:04.800 relationship. 546 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.840 They're able to work with people who live all 547 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.320 over the world towards these goals. And that's powerful. The 548 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.600 Internet also gets their name out there to more people more 549 00:38:15.600 --> 00:38:19.685 quickly. But taking your business online and having it be 550 00:38:19.685 --> 00:38:23.845 successful is a multi headed beast. Building a community 551 00:38:23.845 --> 00:38:27.125 online is one of the heads of the Hydra. 552 00:38:27.365 --> 00:38:32.620 But there's a second more troublesome one too. You said 553 00:38:32.620 --> 00:38:36.700 that doing this work online is kind of a pain in the ass. 554 00:38:36.700 --> 00:38:37.260 Mhmm. 555 00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:38.220 How? 556 00:38:38.220 --> 00:38:40.140 Mahigan St. Pierre: I signed up to be a witch, not a social 557 00:38:40.140 --> 00:38:44.635 media manager. You know, spiritual people and witchcraft 558 00:38:44.635 --> 00:38:49.275 people and people with active magical practices often do not 559 00:38:49.515 --> 00:38:54.555 have the interest to delve into what it means to be an online 560 00:38:54.555 --> 00:38:58.580 personality. Right? That's not that's not what people signed up 561 00:38:58.580 --> 00:39:00.980 for. But unfortunately, it's the reality of things nowadays. 562 00:39:01.460 --> 00:39:03.860 For someone like Maheegan, that might mean 563 00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:08.035 posting on Instagram on a schedule or fielding DMs. The 564 00:39:08.035 --> 00:39:11.795 net they're casting is ostensibly broad. Their website 565 00:39:11.795 --> 00:39:16.195 or podcast could, in theory, reach anyone. But they are not 566 00:39:16.195 --> 00:39:19.875 sacrificing their relationship to community for the sake of 567 00:39:19.875 --> 00:39:23.170 attracting the most amount of attention. But the internet 568 00:39:23.170 --> 00:39:27.970 makes it extremely easy to overvalue performance at the 569 00:39:27.970 --> 00:39:30.530 cost of building a real community. 570 00:39:30.850 --> 00:39:35.010 Sacrificing that interpersonal connection at the altar of SEO. 571 00:39:35.625 --> 00:39:38.905 There's a fine line between marketing yourself and 572 00:39:38.905 --> 00:39:42.905 sanitizing the subculture you represent, of turning witchcraft 573 00:39:42.905 --> 00:39:47.865 into a carnival game. Something flashy, fun, and forgettable. 574 00:39:49.330 --> 00:39:52.930 And if you really wanted to lean into the Zoltar machine method 575 00:39:52.930 --> 00:39:58.210 of things, there is no better platform to do it than Etsy. 576 00:39:58.770 --> 00:40:01.890 You're not going to Etsy in search of curses to find a 577 00:40:01.890 --> 00:40:02.770 semblance of community. 578 00:40:03.255 --> 00:40:08.455 You're going there to spend $12.74 on a hex removal spell. 579 00:40:08.695 --> 00:40:11.255 There's a reason that so many of the thumbnails I saw on that 580 00:40:11.255 --> 00:40:15.975 site were using AI imagery. It makes sense. It's honestly a 581 00:40:15.975 --> 00:40:20.090 perfect choice for what's being sold there. AI imagery has no 582 00:40:20.090 --> 00:40:23.850 soul, no human touch, no personality. 583 00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:27.450 And while I am sure that there are some witches on the platform 584 00:40:27.450 --> 00:40:32.695 who use it very sincerely, Etsy lends itself to a kind of 585 00:40:32.695 --> 00:40:38.935 anonymous impersonal exchange. Etsy is, in many ways, the 586 00:40:38.935 --> 00:40:43.015 perfect example of how any niche community can be sanitized 587 00:40:43.015 --> 00:40:45.800 online through commercialization. There's no 588 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.240 community. There's no interpersonal relations beyond 589 00:40:49.240 --> 00:40:53.080 clicking purchase. It trivializes witchcraft into its 590 00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:54.920 most mimetic form. 591 00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:59.255 But the truth is no one is safe from the way that witchcraft has 592 00:40:59.255 --> 00:41:03.255 been defined historically. It makes me think of what Alex said 593 00:41:03.255 --> 00:41:07.095 earlier, how it can be dangerous to only think of the aesthetics 594 00:41:07.095 --> 00:41:11.495 of witchcraft and ignore the reasons why people turn to it in 595 00:41:11.495 --> 00:41:16.030 the first place. I think Etsy shows the consequences of that 596 00:41:16.030 --> 00:41:19.870 exact kind of thinking. Regardless of the intentions of 597 00:41:19.870 --> 00:41:24.110 any given practitioner on the site, the meme of the Etsy witch 598 00:41:24.270 --> 00:41:27.550 does turn the craft into something cheap and easy. 599 00:41:28.365 --> 00:41:31.885 Offering services like spell work becomes a funny way to 600 00:41:31.885 --> 00:41:33.885 spend $12.74. 601 00:41:34.605 --> 00:41:39.165 Until it's not funny anymore. For the people buying these 602 00:41:39.165 --> 00:41:42.205 services, something like the Charlie Kirk debacle could be 603 00:41:42.205 --> 00:41:46.600 just another joke, another meme. Hell, it could drive more 604 00:41:46.600 --> 00:41:50.600 traffic to Etsy. But for the practitioners selling these 605 00:41:50.600 --> 00:41:55.160 services, it's very real. If you hex the wrong person in the 606 00:41:55.160 --> 00:41:59.285 wrong way, like Charlie Kirk, for example, you could get the 607 00:41:59.285 --> 00:42:02.085 wrong kind of attention from the wrong kind of people. 608 00:42:04.165 --> 00:42:09.045 Community is what acts as a protector for witches. And Etsy 609 00:42:09.045 --> 00:42:13.250 just doesn't enable the kind of personal, intimate exchange of 610 00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:17.410 energy that is so foundational to witchcraft. It will not 611 00:42:17.410 --> 00:42:21.090 encourage the community that has uplifted witchcraft as a 612 00:42:21.090 --> 00:42:25.805 practice for centuries. That's just not the business model. On 613 00:42:25.805 --> 00:42:29.325 Etsy, if you come back from the holidays thinking that Meemaw 614 00:42:29.325 --> 00:42:33.005 cast a curse on you and you wanna buy a hex removal spell, 615 00:42:33.165 --> 00:42:34.445 it takes two seconds. 616 00:42:35.085 --> 00:42:39.565 Nobody's going to tell you no. But the craft is a little more 617 00:42:39.565 --> 00:42:43.600 complicated than just clicking add to cart, and that's sort of 618 00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:44.320 the point. 619 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.760 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's something to be said about, you 620 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.520 know, this work very much being part of the demi monde. 621 00:42:51.600 --> 00:42:52.480 What do you mean by that? 622 00:42:52.865 --> 00:42:55.985 Mahigan St. Pierre: Without without getting too too rated 623 00:42:55.985 --> 00:43:00.945 rated 18, you know, sex workers and pimps and drug dealers and 624 00:43:00.945 --> 00:43:03.825 those kinds of things. All of the like sketchy business that 625 00:43:03.825 --> 00:43:07.400 goes on at night, magical work is kind of a part of. Right? 626 00:43:07.640 --> 00:43:10.120 Just because of the nature of the work that we do. I mean, 627 00:43:10.120 --> 00:43:12.680 you're breaking into cemeteries in the middle of the night, 628 00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:15.400 burying shit, you know, etcetera etcetera. 629 00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.320 You might be hired to, you know, curse people or to, you know, do 630 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:21.955 a bunch of different things like that. And so the moral compass 631 00:43:21.955 --> 00:43:27.795 needs to be developed and finely attuned for sure. Who do you go 632 00:43:27.795 --> 00:43:31.235 to when, you know, you need to get an edge on the competition 633 00:43:31.235 --> 00:43:33.955 even though you're in a high ranking position? You go to the 634 00:43:33.955 --> 00:43:36.150 people who are a little sketchy and who will do whatever needs 635 00:43:36.150 --> 00:43:39.990 to get done. And, you know, who do you go to when you're really 636 00:43:39.990 --> 00:43:42.470 down on your luck and you're at the bottom of the barrel? 637 00:43:42.470 --> 00:43:43.350 Same story. You know? 638 00:43:59.915 --> 00:44:03.995 A huge thank you to Alex Frampton and Mehegan 639 00:44:03.995 --> 00:44:08.030 St. Pierre who both offered such interesting and insightful 640 00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:11.390 perspectives on this topic. I'll include links to Alex's study 641 00:44:11.390 --> 00:44:14.830 and Mahegan's website in the show notes. If you're a witch or 642 00:44:14.830 --> 00:44:18.030 someone who is spiritually connected to witchy things, I'm 643 00:44:18.030 --> 00:44:20.750 curious how you've interacted with the craft as it exists 644 00:44:20.750 --> 00:44:25.005 online. And if you bought a curse or a spell on Etsy, I 645 00:44:25.005 --> 00:44:26.525 wanna hear from you too. 646 00:44:26.925 --> 00:44:31.085 Why did you do it? What did you expect? The links for how to 647 00:44:31.085 --> 00:44:32.765 contact us in the show notes. 648 00:47:11.435 --> 00:47:14.075 That is the show we have for you this week. We 649 00:47:14.075 --> 00:47:16.715 are gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, November 650 00:47:16.715 --> 00:47:22.795 5. Each episode of Never Post represents a couple 100 person 651 00:47:22.795 --> 00:47:27.400 hours of work by a team of six people, hand researched, 652 00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:32.440 handwritten, hand scored, hand sound design, hand spoken into a 653 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:36.840 microphone, and then hand edited with a mouse on a computer. At 654 00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.960 two episodes a month, that means that our $4 a month membership 655 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:45.095 gets you bespoke, ad free, human made, agonized over podcast 656 00:47:45.095 --> 00:47:52.695 episodes for $2 a pop. Was this episode that you just listened 657 00:47:52.695 --> 00:47:56.360 to $2 worth of entertainment to you? 658 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:02.680 If it was, please head on over to neverpo.st and become a 659 00:48:02.680 --> 00:48:06.040 member today. Support your favorite local indie internet 660 00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:09.705 pod so that we can keep telling you about which witch is a 661 00:48:09.705 --> 00:48:14.185 witch's witch. Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, 662 00:48:14.185 --> 00:48:16.745 Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, 663 00:48:16.745 --> 00:48:20.105 last name. Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive 664 00:48:20.105 --> 00:48:21.970 producer is Jason Oberholzer. 665 00:48:21.970 --> 00:48:27.330 The show's host, that's me, is Mike Krugnetta. We asked, what 666 00:48:27.330 --> 00:48:32.290 is this? It rustled. We dug a hole. What is this? 667 00:48:32.290 --> 00:48:36.735 We asked. Anocturama? No. We agreed. The thing was not 668 00:48:36.735 --> 00:48:37.695 anocturama. 669 00:48:37.695 --> 00:48:41.935 Anocturama is when you cannot catch their breath. We nodded. 670 00:48:42.015 --> 00:48:46.095 We dug a hole. Our white hair warmed around the thing. We 671 00:48:46.095 --> 00:48:48.015 asked, is this a genesis? 672 00:48:49.295 --> 00:48:53.750 No. We agreed. The thing was not a genesis. A genesis is when he 673 00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:56.950 sweeps across the water. We nodded. 674 00:48:56.950 --> 00:49:00.950 It rustled. We stood closer to each other. We asked, what is 675 00:49:00.950 --> 00:49:08.965 this? A stillness? Excerpt of the experiments lasted through 676 00:49:08.965 --> 00:49:11.765 the winter by Sabrina Ora Mark. 677 00:49:12.805 --> 00:49:15.685 Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and 678 00:49:15.685 --> 00:49:17.925 distributed by Radiotopia.