WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:14.515 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a show 2 00:00:14.515 --> 00:00:18.915 for and about the Internet. I am your senior producer and today's 3 00:00:18.915 --> 00:00:24.595 host of the show Hans Buto. I am also a resident of Minnesota, 4 00:00:24.595 --> 00:00:27.475 born and raised in the Twin Cities. I am sixth generation 5 00:00:27.475 --> 00:00:33.550 Saint Paul, and I'm coming to you now in your ears with a 6 00:00:33.550 --> 00:00:37.230 sudden unexpected off publish day episode because my state, 7 00:00:37.230 --> 00:00:40.830 Minnesota, is at the epicenter of a few things that are 8 00:00:40.830 --> 00:00:45.125 happening right now in politics. I'm realizing that I don't 9 00:00:45.125 --> 00:00:47.845 really fully understand all of it and I need some help. 10 00:00:47.925 --> 00:00:50.725 If I'm a local who's having trouble I can only imagine how 11 00:00:50.725 --> 00:00:54.325 confusing it is if you have questions about Minnesota and 12 00:00:54.325 --> 00:00:59.460 what on earth is happening but you don't live here. So today, I 13 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:02.180 am hoping to get some perspective with the help of one 14 00:01:02.180 --> 00:01:06.660 of my favorite local reporters in the Twin Cities to help me 15 00:01:06.660 --> 00:01:09.940 understand because local reporting, if you don't know, 16 00:01:10.340 --> 00:01:15.015 helps us understand ourselves. We're gonna understand a little 17 00:01:15.015 --> 00:01:17.175 bit about how this what this has to do with the Internet, which 18 00:01:17.175 --> 00:01:20.135 is spoiler alert quite a bit because of just, you know, how 19 00:01:20.135 --> 00:01:23.095 the world is, what the administration is. But I have 20 00:01:23.095 --> 00:01:27.110 with me to help me understand M Castle. Hello. 21 00:01:27.110 --> 00:01:32.150 Hello, M. I'm so happy I'm to see so happy to see you. You are 22 00:01:32.150 --> 00:01:36.390 the co owner and founder of the excellent local independent 23 00:01:36.390 --> 00:01:41.065 journalism powerhouse Racket, which covers arts, culture, 24 00:01:41.305 --> 00:01:45.225 restaurants, politics, kind of everything else relevant to 25 00:01:45.225 --> 00:01:47.785 living here in the Twin Cities. I redo every day, and I'm so 26 00:01:47.785 --> 00:01:49.145 happy to be talking to you. 27 00:01:49.385 --> 00:01:51.785 It is such an honor to be here, Hans. Thank you so 28 00:01:51.785 --> 00:01:53.305 much. We have a lot of fun doing what we do. 29 00:01:53.600 --> 00:01:56.640 Yeah. I can tell and I love having fun alongside 30 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.760 you and with you, and you helped me have more fun in the cities 31 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:00.560 by far. 32 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:02.560 I hope that's true. Yeah. 33 00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:06.715 So, Em, you have been out in the streets, in the 34 00:02:06.715 --> 00:02:10.875 courtrooms, in the press conferences for Racket, and just 35 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:13.435 generally reporting on all things that are happening in 36 00:02:13.435 --> 00:02:17.115 Minnesota. Right now, that's a lot of fraud and a lot of ICE 37 00:02:17.355 --> 00:02:22.160 And in I bring both of these together side by side because 38 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:25.120 with the congressional hearings on fraud, all of the comments 39 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.320 that are happening about fraud all over the place, and now with 40 00:02:28.320 --> 00:02:30.720 the surge that's happening in Minnesota with the killing of 41 00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:36.015 Renee Goode earlier this week by ICE, I think there's reasons 42 00:02:36.015 --> 00:02:39.215 that everyone is looking at our state. 43 00:02:39.295 --> 00:02:42.335 Yeah, Minnesota and the twin cities specifically 44 00:02:42.335 --> 00:02:44.975 like once again finds itself at kind of the epicenter of the 45 00:02:44.975 --> 00:02:49.610 national attention, which is unusual. It's another, just a 46 00:02:49.610 --> 00:02:51.530 weird thing from the last couple of years. 47 00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:53.530 Yeah. Once again, and I want to get to that 48 00:02:53.530 --> 00:02:56.490 because I have a lot of questions about why once again, 49 00:02:56.490 --> 00:02:58.650 but I want to walk up to it because I think that these 50 00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:03.305 stories of fraud, which some people may or may not have heard 51 00:03:03.305 --> 00:03:07.545 of, and the ICE surge and killing that most people 52 00:03:07.545 --> 00:03:10.665 probably have heard of, I think they're deeply related and 53 00:03:10.665 --> 00:03:13.625 connected to each other, and I think the through line to them 54 00:03:13.945 --> 00:03:18.710 is the internet. And I'm really curious to step through them all 55 00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:22.070 to better just have a sense of what they are so that I just 56 00:03:22.070 --> 00:03:25.510 know what they are, and then to map them against the Internet. 57 00:03:25.830 --> 00:03:28.950 And I want to do that by looking at three moments in recent 58 00:03:28.950 --> 00:03:30.070 history, if that works for you. 59 00:03:30.070 --> 00:03:30.550 I love it. 60 00:03:30.925 --> 00:03:32.765 Great. So let's take a quick pause, and unless 61 00:03:32.765 --> 00:03:35.405 you're a member, you're gonna hear a quick break. And then 62 00:03:35.405 --> 00:03:53.650 let's start with fraud in Minnesota. Okay. Let's start 63 00:03:53.650 --> 00:03:57.010 ourselves off in Minnesota in June 2024. 64 00:03:57.010 --> 00:04:02.035 So two big things happen with fraud in June 2024. And the 65 00:04:02.035 --> 00:04:08.355 first of those is a 200 or so page report comes out from the 66 00:04:08.355 --> 00:04:11.795 Minnesota Department of Legislative Auditor, which is 67 00:04:11.955 --> 00:04:15.040 looking into the Minnesota Department of Education and 68 00:04:15.040 --> 00:04:18.320 their oversight of the Minnesota nonprofit. That's a lot of 69 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:21.440 layers. So Department of Legislative Auditor reports on 70 00:04:21.440 --> 00:04:23.920 the Department of Education who's been giving money to a 71 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:26.640 nonprofit called Feeding Our Future. So Em, can you walk us 72 00:04:26.640 --> 00:04:28.000 through what is this report? 73 00:04:29.095 --> 00:04:31.655 Why is this being done about Feeding Our Future? 74 00:04:31.735 --> 00:04:35.575 Certainly, yes. So the broadest strokes answer is 75 00:04:35.575 --> 00:04:38.055 that Feeding Our Future and the people associated with Feeding 76 00:04:38.055 --> 00:04:42.935 Our Future have been perpetrating massive fraud. They 77 00:04:42.935 --> 00:04:45.670 have referred to it you know, since looking back as sort of 78 00:04:45.670 --> 00:04:51.430 the the biggest pandemic program fraud in the country. Wow. In 79 00:04:51.430 --> 00:04:54.630 the end, you're gonna have more than 50 people so far Yeah. 80 00:04:54.630 --> 00:04:58.870 Convicted of stealing so far, dollars 250,000,000 through this 81 00:04:58.870 --> 00:05:02.845 fraud, which is, I don't need to tell you, Hans, a tremendous 82 00:05:02.845 --> 00:05:07.325 amount of money. The start of the story is actually really 83 00:05:07.325 --> 00:05:11.565 back in 2020 when the pandemic hits, schools are closed, 84 00:05:11.565 --> 00:05:16.160 schools are not feeding lunches to children. And as a reaction 85 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.280 to that, the federal government kind of lowers the requirements 86 00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:23.120 for states to access, what's called federal child nutrition 87 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.400 programs money. So this is what feeds underprivileged children, 88 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:30.405 and these funds are distributed by the Minnesota Department of 89 00:05:30.405 --> 00:05:33.045 Education. So that's kind of like the, like, just laying the 90 00:05:33.045 --> 00:05:36.645 very basic groundwork for, like, what will become this massive 91 00:05:36.645 --> 00:05:37.285 fraud. 92 00:05:37.605 --> 00:05:42.900 Feeding Our Future, in response, starts working with a ton of 93 00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:45.860 other vendors. Like, they're kind of this this broader 94 00:05:45.860 --> 00:05:49.940 nonprofit that works with, vendors. They also call them 95 00:05:49.940 --> 00:05:54.625 food sites, I think, on the ground. And they start upping 96 00:05:54.625 --> 00:05:56.705 the number of vendors they're working with. I think it ends up 97 00:05:56.705 --> 00:05:58.545 being around 70 at one point. 98 00:05:59.105 --> 00:06:03.665 And the vendors who they're working with are saying that 99 00:06:03.665 --> 00:06:07.910 they're feeding a tremendous number of meals to local 100 00:06:07.910 --> 00:06:10.550 children. Like, there's one restaurant, it's a small 101 00:06:10.550 --> 00:06:14.150 restaurant that says it's feeding lunch to 6,000 kids a 102 00:06:14.150 --> 00:06:18.550 day. There's another site in Wilmar, Minnesota that says it's 103 00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:21.990 feeding 2,000 kids a week, which would be like half of the school 104 00:06:21.555 --> 00:06:22.595 district's population. 105 00:06:22.675 --> 00:06:23.395 Oh my goodness. 106 00:06:23.395 --> 00:06:26.515 The math does not math to use the nuance of our 107 00:06:26.515 --> 00:06:31.235 times. So and so, you know, fairly quickly, actually, people 108 00:06:31.235 --> 00:06:36.090 are raising alarm bells about these figures. As early as, I 109 00:06:36.090 --> 00:06:39.610 think, October 2020, people are are reaching out to the 110 00:06:39.610 --> 00:06:41.930 Department of Education and saying, like, this doesn't seem 111 00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:42.810 quite right. 112 00:06:42.810 --> 00:06:44.730 How can you actually feed? How are there 113 00:06:44.730 --> 00:06:47.610 that many kids in the first place? But how do you feed all 114 00:06:47.610 --> 00:06:50.250 of them? Can you feed 12,000 kids? Practically, 115 00:06:50.715 --> 00:06:53.675 You cannot feed this many children this many meals. 116 00:06:53.675 --> 00:06:57.115 Like, it just it doesn't add up. The end result is that by May 117 00:06:57.115 --> 00:07:01.435 2021, the FBI is now involved. They are investigating the 118 00:07:01.435 --> 00:07:04.155 claims that Feeding Our Future and Feeding Our Future's vendors 119 00:07:04.155 --> 00:07:08.950 have been filing false claims. It all eventually snowballs. 120 00:07:09.190 --> 00:07:15.270 By 2022, the FBI is raiding the the businesses and individuals 121 00:07:15.270 --> 00:07:20.555 who are, sort of associated with this fraud. And then finally, by 122 00:07:20.555 --> 00:07:25.435 September 2022, charges are brought against 48 total people, 123 00:07:25.435 --> 00:07:29.675 I think, as the first time for around $250,000,000 in this 124 00:07:29.675 --> 00:07:35.050 money, which has been spent on things like personal trips. Amy 125 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:38.250 Bach, who's kind of widely referred to as the ringleader in 126 00:07:38.250 --> 00:07:38.970 air Yeah. Quotes 127 00:07:39.130 --> 00:07:39.690 Yeah. Of this, 128 00:07:39.690 --> 00:07:44.010 yes, of this fraud. She is accused of spending tens 129 00:07:44.010 --> 00:07:48.345 of thousands of dollars on things like trips to Vegas. I 130 00:07:48.345 --> 00:07:51.305 think her boyfriend took, like, a huge trip to Vegas. And, like, 131 00:07:51.305 --> 00:07:54.425 spent a bunch of, like Cartier or whatever. Like, don't know. 132 00:07:54.425 --> 00:07:58.505 Yeah. It's, like, really, like, like, extravagant fraud. Like, 133 00:07:58.505 --> 00:08:02.790 not even this is not, like, super sneaky. It's, like, it's, 134 00:08:02.790 --> 00:08:04.710 like, pretty bold. Yeah. 135 00:08:04.950 --> 00:08:07.990 Brazen, I think, is a word that comes up a lot in media 136 00:08:07.990 --> 00:08:13.030 reportage around this fraud is, like, it was really brazen. 137 00:08:13.830 --> 00:08:15.975 And I think that's kind of like, I it's weird to 138 00:08:15.975 --> 00:08:19.975 laugh at fraud and be like, these people stealing millions 139 00:08:19.975 --> 00:08:23.975 of dollars from us. Doesn't that suck? But I think when 140 00:08:23.975 --> 00:08:26.855 something's that brazen, that's You do kinda have to laugh. 141 00:08:26.855 --> 00:08:28.615 Yeah. There's like element of like, what? 142 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.720 Yeah. Like, this is like cartoonish levels of fraud. 143 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:36.640 Like, you like, I guess how did they think they would get away 144 00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:39.280 with it? And then, like, second, how did they get away with it 145 00:08:39.280 --> 00:08:40.160 for as long as they did? 146 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:42.320 As long as they did. And we're under 147 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.935 investigation and still doing it and spending the money. And I 148 00:08:45.935 --> 00:08:48.335 remember one of the things that sticks in my mind about the 149 00:08:48.335 --> 00:08:51.135 whole process was there was one point where they were going on 150 00:08:51.135 --> 00:08:53.695 trials after the charges got brought, they were going on 151 00:08:53.695 --> 00:08:58.575 trial and they tried they gave one of the jurors a $150,000 or 152 00:08:58.575 --> 00:08:58.815 something. 153 00:08:59.790 --> 00:09:01.790 Yeah. There was a really weird situation where 154 00:09:01.790 --> 00:09:04.670 they, like, dropped off a little, like, gift bag full of 155 00:09:04.670 --> 00:09:07.710 cash on one of the jurors' doorsteps. 156 00:09:07.710 --> 00:09:07.870 I 157 00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:12.510 mean, really, like, there are weird layers to this, 158 00:09:12.510 --> 00:09:15.855 the way this fraud was perpetrated. And then and truly, 159 00:09:15.855 --> 00:09:18.335 like, the way that they still thought, like, maybe we can get 160 00:09:18.335 --> 00:09:22.175 away with this. Like, maybe we'll bribe a juror. Yeah. Let's 161 00:09:22.175 --> 00:09:22.735 do it. 162 00:09:23.055 --> 00:09:27.055 So so in 2024, this report comes out about the 163 00:09:27.055 --> 00:09:29.375 Department of Education and how they handled it. So what did 164 00:09:29.375 --> 00:09:33.140 this report in 2024 tell us about how all of this stuff over 165 00:09:33.140 --> 00:09:34.500 those couple years was handled? 166 00:09:34.660 --> 00:09:38.020 Yeah. The report, I would say, is kind of damning. 167 00:09:38.020 --> 00:09:41.780 It it's long. It's like a 100 page report. But the upshot is 168 00:09:41.780 --> 00:09:44.795 that, like, the Minnesota Department of Education failed 169 00:09:44.795 --> 00:09:46.155 on several fronts. 170 00:09:46.155 --> 00:09:50.315 So for one, they failed to act on the warning signs, like, 171 00:09:50.315 --> 00:09:53.355 before the COVID nineteen pandemic had even set in that, 172 00:09:53.355 --> 00:09:55.690 like, there are not the right guardrails in place. Like, we 173 00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:58.330 don't have the right systems in place to begin identifying this 174 00:09:58.330 --> 00:10:01.930 kind of fraud. Then after that, that the department did not 175 00:10:01.930 --> 00:10:05.210 effectively exercise its authority, I think is the phrase 176 00:10:05.210 --> 00:10:07.795 that they used to basically, like, hold Feeding Our Future 177 00:10:07.795 --> 00:10:11.875 accountable. Like, they have ways that they could have 178 00:10:12.195 --> 00:10:14.355 stopped this fraud from happening, and they did not have 179 00:10:14.355 --> 00:10:17.395 it. You know, they had people contacting them and saying, hey, 180 00:10:17.555 --> 00:10:21.980 this fraud is happening and continued to pay out money to 181 00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:25.260 Feeding Our Future and and therefore to its, you know, 182 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:26.140 vendor sites. 183 00:10:26.140 --> 00:10:30.220 And then thirdly, that the department was ill prepared to 184 00:10:30.220 --> 00:10:34.380 respond then. So, like, they were alerted to the fraud. They 185 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:37.295 kind of knew that it was happening, and yet they're they 186 00:10:37.295 --> 00:10:40.975 did not respond in any kind of way. I mean, truly, until kind 187 00:10:40.975 --> 00:10:44.015 of the FBI gets involved, like Yeah. You are a government 188 00:10:44.015 --> 00:10:44.495 agency. 189 00:10:44.495 --> 00:10:45.375 Get it together. 190 00:10:45.455 --> 00:10:47.535 So and they're not the only government agency. So 191 00:10:47.535 --> 00:10:50.255 this is what the other thing that happens in June 2024, this 192 00:10:50.255 --> 00:10:55.930 report comes out, and at the same moment is the FBI starts 193 00:10:55.930 --> 00:11:01.050 investigating for Medicaid fraud in autism centers, because 194 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:04.490 suddenly autism centers around the state have increased 195 00:11:04.490 --> 00:11:08.090 spending 700% in five years, and a whole bunch of other metrics 196 00:11:08.090 --> 00:11:11.425 are just suddenly there's all of this money going into these 197 00:11:11.425 --> 00:11:15.265 autism centers without any related rise in the need for 198 00:11:15.265 --> 00:11:19.345 them. Since then, seven people have been charged, some of those 199 00:11:19.345 --> 00:11:23.370 people with connections to Feeding Our Future. And then in 200 00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:26.970 2025, the next year, the Minnesota Department of Human 201 00:11:26.970 --> 00:11:32.410 Services suspended the housing stabilization benefit, which 202 00:11:32.410 --> 00:11:35.370 they did because they said there were credible allegations of 203 00:11:35.370 --> 00:11:41.095 fraud from 77 providers, and 13 people have been charged since 204 00:11:41.095 --> 00:11:46.375 then. All told, with all of these different avenues of fraud 205 00:11:46.615 --> 00:11:51.175 in Minnesota in these government situations, 98 people have been 206 00:11:51.175 --> 00:11:54.560 charged with various fraud schemes in various sectors since 207 00:11:54.560 --> 00:12:00.880 2022, totaling, prosecutors say, a possible $9,000,000,000 of 208 00:12:01.040 --> 00:12:01.920 stolen money. 209 00:12:01.920 --> 00:12:04.560 It's a huge amount of money. Billion with a b. 210 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.015 When we see these congressional meetings and we 211 00:12:09.015 --> 00:12:11.655 hear people talking about fraud, there is a legitimate thing to 212 00:12:11.655 --> 00:12:19.335 say. There was fraud committed. Yeah, and it was rampant. So I 213 00:12:19.335 --> 00:12:22.055 think it's important then for the rest of this story to say, 214 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:27.340 who are those people of those 98 who was accused of perpetrating 215 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:28.140 this fraud? 216 00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:30.780 Yeah. So the kind of wild thing is, you know, 217 00:12:30.780 --> 00:12:33.660 obviously there is Amy Bach, the sort of the CEO of Feeding Our 218 00:12:33.660 --> 00:12:38.355 Future, the ringleader. She is a white woman, but all but eight, 219 00:12:38.355 --> 00:12:41.715 I think, is the total of the people who are accused in this 220 00:12:41.715 --> 00:12:45.955 fraud are Somali Americans, and the vast majority of them are 221 00:12:45.955 --> 00:12:47.155 American citizens. 222 00:12:47.795 --> 00:12:50.675 This is a big thing in the Twin Cities, especially 223 00:12:50.675 --> 00:12:55.320 because we are one of the largest populations of Somali 224 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:00.280 folks, most of them American citizens. There's big parts, 225 00:13:00.280 --> 00:13:05.080 especially of Minneapolis, that are very Somali oriented to And 226 00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:10.225 that so that's already a thing that there are certain members 227 00:13:10.225 --> 00:13:13.185 of the community and then especially of the wider 228 00:13:13.185 --> 00:13:16.305 community, especially of the administration who are already 229 00:13:16.305 --> 00:13:19.830 against African and East African people in the first place, much 230 00:13:19.830 --> 00:13:22.310 less people who have come here despite them being citizens or 231 00:13:22.310 --> 00:13:26.310 not. So when this starts to come out, who really gets the blame 232 00:13:26.630 --> 00:13:28.310 for all of this fraud? 233 00:13:28.390 --> 00:13:31.430 I would say the blame kind of falls in two places. One 234 00:13:31.430 --> 00:13:34.945 is on Minnesota governor Tim Walls and his administration, 235 00:13:34.945 --> 00:13:39.025 like, basically, the the failure to do anything to stop the fraud 236 00:13:39.025 --> 00:13:42.705 and to just kind of let it proliferate, under under his 237 00:13:42.705 --> 00:13:45.425 watch and his administration's watch. But then, yeah, to your 238 00:13:45.425 --> 00:13:48.540 point, Hans, the other place that it falls is on the broader 239 00:13:48.540 --> 00:13:52.060 Somali community, you know, people who I think maybe already 240 00:13:52.060 --> 00:13:56.060 have preexisting prejudices definitely use this as a way to 241 00:13:56.060 --> 00:13:59.100 say, look at this community, like, look at this community of 242 00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:03.075 immigrants and and and how they are acting basically, which is 243 00:14:03.075 --> 00:14:07.955 just not I mean, it's it's still a very small fraction of the, as 244 00:14:07.955 --> 00:14:11.395 you mentioned, very large Somali American population here in the 245 00:14:11.395 --> 00:14:12.275 Twin Cities. 246 00:14:12.275 --> 00:14:15.530 Absolute. But it's such an easy thing, I think, to 247 00:14:15.530 --> 00:14:20.730 target now when you say, look all of this massive, we can call 248 00:14:20.730 --> 00:14:24.250 it massive fraud, and look at how disproportionate it was 249 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:27.545 coming from this one particular community. You can imagine the 250 00:14:27.545 --> 00:14:31.865 therefore that start to emerge. And I think this moves us into 251 00:14:31.865 --> 00:14:35.225 our second moment that I want to talk about, which is jumping us 252 00:14:35.225 --> 00:14:39.545 ahead to Thanksgiving of this past year, which involves the 253 00:14:39.545 --> 00:14:43.670 escalation of rhetoric that leads to the deployment of ice 254 00:14:44.070 --> 00:14:50.390 in the Twin Cities. So I want to move us to 11/19/2025, just a 255 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:51.350 month and a half ago. 256 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:53.815 There was an article that was published, I'm not sure if 257 00:14:53.815 --> 00:14:59.895 you've read this article, it's a wild article. Woah. It's by this 258 00:14:59.895 --> 00:15:04.455 group called City Journal, which is not in Minnesota, it's not 259 00:15:04.455 --> 00:15:08.100 really affiliated, Independent Journalism, which I say that in 260 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:10.660 quote Marks, even though both of us are independent journalism. 261 00:15:10.660 --> 00:15:14.020 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not like those guys. We're 262 00:15:14.020 --> 00:15:14.900 not like we're not 263 00:15:14.900 --> 00:15:17.700 because they go on, they claim in this article that 264 00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:22.205 the Minnesota childcare program funds, so this is childcare now 265 00:15:22.205 --> 00:15:25.405 that we're moving into, the childcare program funds are 266 00:15:25.485 --> 00:15:30.605 being sent back to Somalia to Al Shabaab, which is the terrorist 267 00:15:30.605 --> 00:15:34.870 organization in Somalia, a lot of them responsible for the 268 00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:37.670 Somali civil war in the early nineties that led to the 269 00:15:37.670 --> 00:15:41.830 diaspora. So that they're taking government money, taxpayer 270 00:15:41.830 --> 00:15:45.605 money, and shoveling it back to terrorist organizations in 271 00:15:45.605 --> 00:15:50.485 Somalia. The problem is the source for this, who they quote 272 00:15:50.485 --> 00:15:53.045 in it, comes out afterwards and it's like, woah, woah, woah, 273 00:15:53.045 --> 00:15:55.445 they took me out of context. I didn't say that. So that is not 274 00:15:55.445 --> 00:15:56.005 true. 275 00:15:56.245 --> 00:15:58.725 Yep. That's not what's happening. 276 00:15:58.725 --> 00:15:59.925 But it's kind of like too late. 277 00:16:00.220 --> 00:16:04.700 It's too late. The posts are made. The cat is out 278 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.420 of the bag and I think that this is a theme we're going to see a 279 00:16:07.420 --> 00:16:12.220 lot coming from this point because Trump elevates this 280 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:16.685 claim almost immediately on Truth Social, he says, quote, 281 00:16:16.685 --> 00:16:19.565 Minnesota under governor Walls is a hub of fraudulent money 282 00:16:19.565 --> 00:16:24.765 laundering activity, end quote, which again, there is fraud. 283 00:16:24.765 --> 00:16:28.370 Like, let's not lose sight of there is fraud. But this is 284 00:16:28.370 --> 00:16:30.930 saying that it's laundering when there's no evidence for that, 285 00:16:31.090 --> 00:16:34.370 but he takes a real world step and he cancels temporary 286 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:38.450 protected status for Somali folks in Minnesota. 287 00:16:38.610 --> 00:16:39.810 Yeah. Do you have a 288 00:16:39.810 --> 00:16:41.490 sense, Em, of what that meant around here? 289 00:16:41.685 --> 00:16:43.845 There were only a couple 100 immigrants, I think, 290 00:16:43.845 --> 00:16:46.325 who were immediately affected by that. I think it's like that 291 00:16:46.405 --> 00:16:49.925 that's just like the first, like, the opening volley in his 292 00:16:50.005 --> 00:16:50.885 escalation. 293 00:16:50.965 --> 00:16:53.205 Yeah. That's interesting because most of the 294 00:16:53.205 --> 00:16:56.005 Somali folks in Minnesota are citizens. They're not. 295 00:16:56.005 --> 00:16:57.950 They are. Exactly. So, yeah, it was just kind of 296 00:16:57.950 --> 00:17:00.350 like a here's what I'm gonna do first, and then I'm gonna 297 00:17:00.670 --> 00:17:03.790 Yeah. So then very shortly after that, on 298 00:17:03.790 --> 00:17:09.305 Thanksgiving, the day after an Afghan asylee shoots two 299 00:17:09.305 --> 00:17:12.265 National Guard soldiers near the White House, killing one of 300 00:17:12.265 --> 00:17:16.585 them. Trump's in an interview, and he responds to reporters by 301 00:17:16.585 --> 00:17:19.545 saying that there is nothing linking, that's in quotes, 302 00:17:19.545 --> 00:17:23.540 nothing linking the shooting that happened with Somalia, and 303 00:17:23.540 --> 00:17:28.660 then immediately goes on truth social and posts, quote, 304 00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:31.540 hundreds of thousands of refugees from Somalia are 305 00:17:31.540 --> 00:17:34.820 completely taking over the once great state of Minnesota. 306 00:17:34.820 --> 00:17:38.985 Somalian gangs are roving the streets looking for prey as our 307 00:17:38.985 --> 00:17:41.705 wonderful people stay locked in their apartments and houses 308 00:17:41.705 --> 00:17:46.745 hoping against hope that they will be left alone. Did you feel 309 00:17:46.745 --> 00:17:47.465 that way, M? 310 00:17:51.945 --> 00:17:55.350 You hoping against hope clutching a picture of him. Oh, 311 00:17:55.350 --> 00:17:56.790 please come help us. 312 00:17:57.190 --> 00:18:00.790 Oh god. This is the most bizarre thing. Like, it 313 00:18:00.790 --> 00:18:04.310 truly is just like I mean, the way this administration will 314 00:18:04.310 --> 00:18:07.535 just say stuff. Right? Like, way that they will just say say 315 00:18:07.535 --> 00:18:10.015 anything in the way that Trump specifically will just, like, 316 00:18:10.015 --> 00:18:13.615 make something up, like, just to, like, state the obvious, 317 00:18:13.615 --> 00:18:16.575 there are not Somali gangs roving No. 318 00:18:16.575 --> 00:18:20.750 The streets looking for, quote, prey. Yeah. That has, like, 319 00:18:20.750 --> 00:18:23.950 never happened in my experience. I mean, it's like, again, it's 320 00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:26.590 not really funny, but, like, all you can do is laugh. Like, it is 321 00:18:26.590 --> 00:18:28.910 such an out outlandish claim. 322 00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:32.510 Like, truly just, like, beyond the pale in terms of just, like, 323 00:18:32.750 --> 00:18:38.805 making up a a really, really, really crazy, like, set of 324 00:18:38.805 --> 00:18:40.645 facts, alternative facts. 325 00:18:41.205 --> 00:18:42.965 And this is really the indication that we get that 326 00:18:42.965 --> 00:18:48.325 he's seizing on Somalia and Somali Minnesotans as a way to 327 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.280 attack because then he immediately pivots, uses a super 328 00:18:50.280 --> 00:18:54.040 gross epithet about governor Waltz saying that he and the 329 00:18:54.040 --> 00:18:58.680 democrats are doing nothing. And then it's later that weekend 330 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.520 that the administration announces operation metro surge. 331 00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:05.485 So what is Operation Metro Surge? 332 00:19:05.725 --> 00:19:10.205 Operation Metro Surge is mirrors the previous actions 333 00:19:10.205 --> 00:19:13.725 in Portland or what we saw in Chicago, where the Trump 334 00:19:13.725 --> 00:19:17.450 administration deploys just a bunch of Department of Homeland 335 00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:21.290 Security agents to the Twin Cities, kind of using the Somali 336 00:19:21.290 --> 00:19:24.890 community, right, as a scapegoat of, like, we're gonna I mean, 337 00:19:24.890 --> 00:19:27.610 they basically say, like, this is gonna stop fraud somehow. 338 00:19:27.610 --> 00:19:30.730 Like, they this is gonna stop fraud, and also, we're gonna go 339 00:19:30.730 --> 00:19:34.385 after these these criminals who are running wild in the streets, 340 00:19:34.385 --> 00:19:37.745 again, in this, like, totally alternate universe that no one 341 00:19:37.745 --> 00:19:41.185 is living in where there's, like, just just rampant crime. 342 00:19:42.145 --> 00:19:45.900 So I think initially, the idea was like, we're going to send 343 00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:48.220 all these agents and we're going to round up the bad guys. Think 344 00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:51.260 the worst of the worst or whatever is the language that 345 00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:54.220 the administration uses. Like, we're going to come get the 346 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:56.460 baddies from the Twin Cities. 347 00:19:57.295 --> 00:19:59.535 Which they're using the fraud stuff in that case to 348 00:19:59.535 --> 00:20:02.175 be like, look at how many of these bad people. Look what 349 00:20:02.175 --> 00:20:04.495 they're doing. Look at the scale of things that they're doing, 350 00:20:04.575 --> 00:20:07.135 and look at how many of them there are. The the white folks 351 00:20:07.135 --> 00:20:10.015 in Minnesota aren't doing this fraud. It's all like, we gotta 352 00:20:10.015 --> 00:20:13.900 go in there because the Democrats aren't doing anything. 353 00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:18.460 Now you did some reporting on the surge in what's happening. 354 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:20.700 So talk us through a little bit because did you go to Carmel 355 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:21.260 Mall? 356 00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:24.060 I didn't report from Carmel Mall. The Minnesota 357 00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:28.140 reformer had a great story where basically they were like, it's 358 00:20:28.295 --> 00:20:30.935 empty here. Carmel Mall, for those who don't know, is kind of 359 00:20:30.935 --> 00:20:34.055 like a Somali hub here in the Twin Cities. It's on Lake 360 00:20:34.055 --> 00:20:37.335 Street. It's a big market and there are shops and there are 361 00:20:37.335 --> 00:20:38.215 restaurants. 362 00:20:38.935 --> 00:20:43.620 And within a few days really of the surge starting of this 363 00:20:43.620 --> 00:20:47.860 Operation Metro surge, like, the streets were kind of empty. And 364 00:20:47.860 --> 00:20:50.020 you could see that playing out on other businesses on Lake 365 00:20:50.020 --> 00:20:52.340 Street, which is a huge immigrant corridor here. There's 366 00:20:52.340 --> 00:20:54.820 a lot of Mexican owned businesses, a lot of businesses 367 00:20:54.820 --> 00:20:59.635 owned by people of color in general, and they were pretty 368 00:20:59.635 --> 00:21:05.235 quickly struggling. Yeah. Struggling to get their workers 369 00:21:05.235 --> 00:21:08.115 here safely to have the people who would generally patronize 370 00:21:08.115 --> 00:21:09.475 those businesses feeling safe. 371 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:13.350 Lake Street in general really kind of cleared out and so did 372 00:21:13.350 --> 00:21:15.670 other immigrant hubs in the Twin Cities area. 373 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.550 Mhmm. There were efforts to to get people to shop 374 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:21.750 at immigrant shops because their regular clientele couldn't go 375 00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.865 in, like spend the hubs, spend your money going to support some 376 00:21:25.865 --> 00:21:28.025 of these places with who haven't seen customers in days 377 00:21:28.025 --> 00:21:30.505 sometimes. Everybody's running scared. 378 00:21:30.505 --> 00:21:32.665 Yeah. Yeah. People are locking their doors. I mean, 379 00:21:32.665 --> 00:21:34.665 there are restaurants that you'll go to on Lake Street now 380 00:21:34.665 --> 00:21:37.145 and the door will be locked. You'll have to knock to get in. 381 00:21:37.145 --> 00:21:39.830 They're still technically open, but they're they're trying to 382 00:21:39.830 --> 00:21:42.550 protect themselves and their their coworkers and their loved 383 00:21:42.550 --> 00:21:44.230 ones. For most of December, 384 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:47.510 it felt like it wasn't it sucked and it was 385 00:21:47.510 --> 00:21:52.390 scary, but it wasn't any more remarkable than in other big 386 00:21:51.635 --> 00:21:55.315 blue cities where this was happening. Am I right on that? 387 00:21:55.315 --> 00:21:55.795 Yeah. I think 388 00:21:55.795 --> 00:21:58.115 that's fair to say. I think if anything, you know, you 389 00:21:58.115 --> 00:22:01.075 could kind of look around and be like, well, it's actually not as 390 00:22:01.075 --> 00:22:04.510 bad, again, through December as it has been in Chicago and other 391 00:22:04.510 --> 00:22:07.710 cities. Not seeing Just these numbers wise. Simply in a 392 00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:12.590 numbers game, you know, it's bad and it's scary. But it was, you 393 00:22:12.590 --> 00:22:16.110 know, relatively small in scale to what we've seen here at the 394 00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:20.405 start of 2026, which is, I don't have to tell you, really bad. 395 00:22:20.405 --> 00:22:22.005 Really bad. Really bad. Yeah. 396 00:22:22.005 --> 00:22:25.685 So what was the local reaction that you felt 397 00:22:25.685 --> 00:22:28.405 happened when Operation Metro Search started? 398 00:22:28.645 --> 00:22:31.605 It's been like actually very impressive to see 399 00:22:31.770 --> 00:22:34.730 the local reaction and see how the community has banded 400 00:22:34.730 --> 00:22:38.250 together to try to protect the the vulnerable members of the 401 00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:42.010 community. People signing up to deliver groceries to people who 402 00:22:42.010 --> 00:22:43.210 don't feel safe leaving their homes. 403 00:22:43.530 --> 00:22:44.250 Their homes. That's right. 404 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:47.450 That's right. Or or escorting children from their 405 00:22:46.845 --> 00:22:50.605 bus stop to their house or from the bus into their schools. 406 00:22:50.765 --> 00:22:52.845 Going like putting on a bib and going to stand in 407 00:22:52.845 --> 00:22:55.645 front of a mosque. Yep. Like, know, just to be a presence. 408 00:22:55.645 --> 00:22:57.885 Yeah. There has really been a tremendous 409 00:22:57.885 --> 00:23:02.130 outpouring of support, would say. And I I think going back 410 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:06.450 even further, like, this almost ties into 2020 and in earlier 411 00:23:06.450 --> 00:23:10.290 where the Twin Cities kind of rallied together in the wake of 412 00:23:10.290 --> 00:23:12.610 George Floyd's murder. And, like, there are sort of these 413 00:23:12.610 --> 00:23:15.490 networks that already exist in the Twin Cities where people 414 00:23:16.075 --> 00:23:22.155 have have done this before, unfortunately. And and so a lot 415 00:23:22.155 --> 00:23:25.995 of those people have really stepped up to try to protect 416 00:23:25.995 --> 00:23:26.555 their neighbors. 417 00:23:26.555 --> 00:23:28.315 So of course, there's only so much you can do. 418 00:23:28.790 --> 00:23:30.950 Right. Because, you know, we have we have armed 419 00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:32.470 forces patrolling 420 00:23:32.230 --> 00:23:32.870 Yeah. The 421 00:23:33.910 --> 00:23:37.430 And this reaction of at least a lot of folks 422 00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:41.270 around here was markedly different from the federal 423 00:23:41.270 --> 00:23:43.830 reaction and the reaction of the administration. So how did they 424 00:23:43.830 --> 00:23:44.390 talk about it? 425 00:23:45.805 --> 00:23:51.165 I guess you could say they posted through it. Like 426 00:23:51.805 --> 00:23:56.205 like, truly truly, like, posting through it. Like, early 427 00:23:56.605 --> 00:24:02.040 December, you have that really bizarre video where Trump is 428 00:24:02.120 --> 00:24:05.880 hurling horrific insults at Somali just like blatant racism 429 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:09.800 at Somali people calling them garbage. He's at a cabinet 430 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:13.000 meeting and, like, JD Vance is, like, banging on the table. You 431 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.965 hear that weird audio recording where he's banging his fists on 432 00:24:15.965 --> 00:24:16.605 the table. 433 00:24:17.245 --> 00:24:19.805 He, of course, targets Ilhan Omar. 434 00:24:19.805 --> 00:24:20.765 Who is Somali? 435 00:24:20.765 --> 00:24:25.645 Who is Somali. Yes. Our representative. And I am not 436 00:24:25.645 --> 00:24:28.525 personally on Truth Social, but you would see, you know, people 437 00:24:28.525 --> 00:24:31.310 sharing screenshots of these posts where it's just like, 438 00:24:31.310 --> 00:24:33.630 again, it feels like an alternate reality from the one 439 00:24:33.630 --> 00:24:37.070 that we all live in where our Somali neighbors are wonderful. 440 00:24:37.070 --> 00:24:41.875 It feels insane to even have to say it, but like, it's just such 441 00:24:41.875 --> 00:24:46.195 a strange thing to watch an entire community be smeared like 442 00:24:46.195 --> 00:24:48.275 this by the president of The United States. 443 00:24:48.275 --> 00:24:48.675 Like 444 00:24:48.995 --> 00:24:51.315 And then when he does it, like, it wasn't just it 445 00:24:51.315 --> 00:24:56.195 was Vance, it was Cash Patel, it was the podcaster leader of the 446 00:24:56.195 --> 00:25:01.220 FBI, it was Kristi Noem, like everybody would would echo in 447 00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:05.940 posts a similar thing as they ramped up and escalated. 448 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:09.700 Yeah. You'd sort of see the groundwork being laid 449 00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:14.485 for, like, increased hatred, like, on Twitter, like, in 450 00:25:14.485 --> 00:25:17.445 tweets. Like Yeah. Like, I don't know how often Kirsty Noem was 451 00:25:17.445 --> 00:25:20.965 posting about Somali people before this December, but all of 452 00:25:20.965 --> 00:25:24.085 a sudden All of a sudden. She has a lot to say about them. 453 00:25:24.245 --> 00:25:27.490 Yeah. And so this pattern emerges of something 454 00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:31.010 being posted, officials immediately reacting in posts to 455 00:25:31.010 --> 00:25:36.610 each other, and then this severe disproportionate policy or real 456 00:25:36.610 --> 00:25:40.435 world action or something emerges or gets generated from 457 00:25:40.435 --> 00:25:45.475 that flurry of posts. So let's take a quick break, and when we 458 00:25:45.475 --> 00:25:49.795 come back I want to talk about how this pattern escalates into 459 00:25:49.795 --> 00:26:07.855 the death of Renee Goode earlier this week. So our final moment 460 00:26:07.855 --> 00:26:12.895 that we're gonna examine here is the Internet of it all. And this 461 00:26:12.975 --> 00:26:14.495 happens in late December. 462 00:26:14.495 --> 00:26:18.975 So we're almost a month at this point into Operation Metro 463 00:26:18.975 --> 00:26:23.610 Surge, and the day after Christmas, a video drops from a 464 00:26:23.610 --> 00:26:29.370 23 year old, very MAGA friendly influencer sort named Nick 465 00:26:29.370 --> 00:26:33.450 Shirley. Nick Shirley releases this forty three minute video 466 00:26:33.530 --> 00:26:38.545 where he comes to Minnesota. They go to what he says is 11 467 00:26:38.545 --> 00:26:43.825 different Somali childcare centers, and he just starts 468 00:26:43.825 --> 00:26:47.505 demanding whoever opens the door show him the kids. Hello. We'd 469 00:26:47.505 --> 00:26:49.300 like to ask where the money's going. 470 00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:52.820 What do you guys think about the fraud that's taking place here 471 00:26:52.820 --> 00:26:53.540 in Minnesota? 472 00:26:53.540 --> 00:26:55.700 Sorry. I don't think anybody is enabling that to 473 00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:55.940 happen. 474 00:26:56.020 --> 00:26:58.340 Hold governor Walls accountable for this. What was 475 00:26:58.340 --> 00:27:02.655 this money spent on? 1,260,000.00. What was that 476 00:27:02.655 --> 00:27:03.055 money 477 00:27:03.055 --> 00:27:04.735 spent on? If there aren't any kids. 478 00:27:04.735 --> 00:27:06.495 Answer the question. Are there children? 479 00:27:06.495 --> 00:27:10.655 There's no children inside this building. I'm not sure why they 480 00:27:10.655 --> 00:27:13.935 didn't show him the kids when no random young person just starts 481 00:27:13.935 --> 00:27:17.090 aggressively demanding that, you bring the kids out to me or let 482 00:27:17.090 --> 00:27:21.330 me go in and see the kids. But he isn't shown any children in 483 00:27:21.330 --> 00:27:24.370 these 11, and so then he turns around in the video and claims 484 00:27:24.370 --> 00:27:29.570 this as evidence of a 110,000,000 more dollars in 485 00:27:29.570 --> 00:27:32.585 widespread fraud by the Somali community. 486 00:27:32.585 --> 00:27:34.905 Did you watch this video by Nick Shirley? 487 00:27:34.905 --> 00:27:38.505 I saw clips and I was kind of, like, again, talking 488 00:27:38.505 --> 00:27:42.345 about, like, brazenness. Like, this guy really, really just 489 00:27:42.345 --> 00:27:43.065 goes for it. 490 00:27:43.650 --> 00:27:46.130 Which like a forty three minute YouTube video of a 491 00:27:46.130 --> 00:27:50.290 guy doing kind of stunt journalism without research. 492 00:27:50.290 --> 00:27:53.730 Like, okay. Yeah. This sort of stuff happens. Like, it's not 493 00:27:53.810 --> 00:27:56.425 weird that you wouldn't have seen it, but there are some 494 00:27:56.425 --> 00:28:03.385 people who definitely saw it and had this wildly outsized huge 495 00:28:03.385 --> 00:28:04.345 reaction to it. 496 00:28:04.345 --> 00:28:07.385 So almost immediately, the vice president of The United States 497 00:28:07.385 --> 00:28:11.790 Of America, JD Vance, emphatically reposted on X 498 00:28:11.790 --> 00:28:14.350 saying this is some great better journalism than any of the 499 00:28:14.350 --> 00:28:17.550 people who want a Pulitzer this year. Elon Musk engages with it. 500 00:28:17.550 --> 00:28:22.030 Kash Patel, again, from the FBI. Kristi Noem, head of DHS, they 501 00:28:22.030 --> 00:28:25.625 all post. Kristi Noem says, oh, we're we're because of this, 502 00:28:25.625 --> 00:28:28.025 we're gonna start investigating this immediately. 503 00:28:28.505 --> 00:28:32.105 In a statement from the White House, Abigail Jackson, who's a 504 00:28:32.105 --> 00:28:35.870 spokeswoman for it, said that, and this is a quote, quote, the 505 00:28:35.870 --> 00:28:38.510 country should be deeply appreciative to Shirley for 506 00:28:38.510 --> 00:28:41.550 shining a light on this issue. The legacy media should take 507 00:28:41.550 --> 00:28:42.990 notes, end quote. 508 00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:44.990 Yeah. I think what we need is actually for Star 509 00:28:44.990 --> 00:28:48.270 Tribune reporters to just start banging on day care centers. 510 00:28:48.270 --> 00:28:53.285 Just demanding. Like it's everybody in the 511 00:28:53.285 --> 00:28:56.885 cabinet seems to just immediately glom onto this, make 512 00:28:56.885 --> 00:29:00.965 their own series of posts about it. Within the week, the video 513 00:29:00.965 --> 00:29:04.165 has a 131,000,000 views on X, which who knows what that means. 514 00:29:04.760 --> 00:29:08.760 2,500,000 views on YouTube. But it's also got Trump's attention 515 00:29:08.760 --> 00:29:11.480 because Trump then does this thing after this flurry of posts 516 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:12.680 from everybody in the cabinet. 517 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:19.925 He orders the health department to freeze $185,000,000 in child 518 00:29:19.925 --> 00:29:22.885 care payments to the state of Minnesota day care centers 519 00:29:22.965 --> 00:29:27.365 directly in response to this video, which is the pattern that 520 00:29:27.365 --> 00:29:28.245 we've been outlining. 521 00:29:28.245 --> 00:29:33.180 You manufacture a scenario and you post about it a 522 00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.620 lot, which makes it true. 523 00:29:34.700 --> 00:29:36.700 Yep. And then the posting begets posting. 524 00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:40.140 Yep. There's a whole like weird web ecosystem of 525 00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:43.660 posts and they all relate to each other. Yep. And then you 526 00:29:43.660 --> 00:29:47.395 use that web of posts to say like, this is fact now, and now 527 00:29:47.395 --> 00:29:51.315 we are going to, for example, withhold these funds as a 528 00:29:51.315 --> 00:29:55.075 reaction to the posts that we ourselves made. 529 00:29:55.555 --> 00:29:58.115 It's early January when the Minnesota Department of 530 00:29:58.115 --> 00:30:01.310 Children, Youth, and Families did compliance checks in all of 531 00:30:01.310 --> 00:30:05.790 those places on nine of the 11 from the Shirley video and they 532 00:30:05.790 --> 00:30:09.070 concluded definitively that no, they're operating exactly as 533 00:30:09.070 --> 00:30:14.605 expected. There's no issue here. But that's like, it's what, two 534 00:30:14.605 --> 00:30:16.125 weeks after? Well, right. 535 00:30:16.125 --> 00:30:19.165 It's too late. It's almost like the the outrage has 536 00:30:19.165 --> 00:30:23.405 been created. We have our followers now, the people who 537 00:30:23.405 --> 00:30:27.510 are MAGA, Jason, like they all believe what we have said. And 538 00:30:27.510 --> 00:30:29.190 so actually, it kind of doesn't matter. 539 00:30:29.990 --> 00:30:30.630 There's It something really 540 00:30:30.630 --> 00:30:32.790 doesn't. They're not gonna post again. Like, you're 541 00:30:32.790 --> 00:30:36.070 not gonna get a sign off from JD Vance that's like, oh, good. The 542 00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:38.390 Department of Children, Youth and Families said actually these 543 00:30:38.390 --> 00:30:39.670 daycare centers are great. 544 00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:42.070 You know, guys, I'm gonna delete those old posts. 545 00:30:42.385 --> 00:30:44.465 I'm gonna issue a correction. 546 00:30:44.625 --> 00:30:46.865 Like, no, that's not gonna fucking happen. So 547 00:30:48.705 --> 00:30:54.305 And instead, in the meantime, they used that as a 548 00:30:54.305 --> 00:30:58.110 catapult, as a jumping off point, as a springboard to 549 00:30:58.110 --> 00:31:01.070 launch, I don't even know if it's got a name, but the latest 550 00:31:01.070 --> 00:31:05.950 assault, sending the largest force of DHS personnel into 551 00:31:05.950 --> 00:31:08.910 Minnesota that I think has ever been assembled. I think those 552 00:31:08.910 --> 00:31:14.475 are the latest. 2,000 DHS agents showed up in Minnesota in that 553 00:31:14.475 --> 00:31:17.115 gap before they came in. Were like, no, no, this video isn't 554 00:31:17.115 --> 00:31:18.795 accurate. This is not what's happening. 555 00:31:18.795 --> 00:31:20.875 They came there like there's widespread fraud. Again, this 556 00:31:20.875 --> 00:31:23.515 fraud. Let's go. We gotta go do something because the Democrats 557 00:31:23.515 --> 00:31:28.370 aren't doing anything. So then 2,000 DHS agents show up, And, 558 00:31:28.370 --> 00:31:30.610 of course, end this week. 559 00:31:30.610 --> 00:31:35.010 Yeah. I mean, it's been hell out there. December 560 00:31:35.010 --> 00:31:37.570 pales in comparison. It feels like they're the city is 561 00:31:37.570 --> 00:31:41.810 crawling with federal agents, ICE agents, DHS agents, border 562 00:31:41.810 --> 00:31:43.365 patrol agents. Yep. 563 00:31:43.365 --> 00:31:47.445 They are kidnapping people, leaving school. They are 564 00:31:47.445 --> 00:31:52.325 flooding into local businesses. They are tackling workers at 565 00:31:52.325 --> 00:31:56.500 Target. I mean, it's just like a really you definitely get the 566 00:31:56.500 --> 00:31:58.660 sense that, like, maybe what they wanted the first time 567 00:31:58.660 --> 00:32:01.860 around was a shock and awe that they didn't get. And now there 568 00:32:01.860 --> 00:32:05.060 are these 2,000 additional agents and they are they are 569 00:32:05.060 --> 00:32:06.340 doing the shock and awe. 570 00:32:06.340 --> 00:32:10.685 They are getting the visuals that they want of grown men 571 00:32:10.685 --> 00:32:17.245 tackling people to the ground and arresting bystanders and 572 00:32:17.245 --> 00:32:20.125 arresting legal observers, detaining people. 573 00:32:20.365 --> 00:32:23.490 And as of Wednesday, killing somebody who 574 00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:27.570 was at one of the sites where they were without warrants, 575 00:32:27.570 --> 00:32:30.610 without a reason to be there, without anything, as JD Venn 576 00:32:30.610 --> 00:32:33.570 says, just going door to door, which is fundamentally 577 00:32:33.570 --> 00:32:36.050 unconstitutional. You need a warrant to go door. You don't 578 00:32:36.050 --> 00:32:39.755 just go door to door looking for crimes. It's awful. It's been an 579 00:32:39.755 --> 00:32:46.155 awful few days since Renee Goode has been killed by an ICE agent 580 00:32:46.395 --> 00:32:48.075 in her car on Wednesday. 581 00:32:48.795 --> 00:32:50.635 We're not going to get too deep into that because I think that 582 00:32:50.635 --> 00:32:52.635 part has been pretty well covered and folks should look it 583 00:32:52.635 --> 00:32:55.530 up because it's heartbreaking and devastating. But I want to 584 00:32:55.530 --> 00:32:59.850 focus in on another thing that happened earlier this week when 585 00:32:59.850 --> 00:33:03.210 some really interesting writing came out from some really 586 00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:06.330 interesting internet thinkers. So earlier this week Charlie 587 00:33:06.330 --> 00:33:10.035 Warzel in the Atlantic, Don Moynihan and Cooper Lund, who 588 00:33:10.035 --> 00:33:13.715 each have their own blogs, and Ryan Broderick in garbage day, 589 00:33:14.035 --> 00:33:16.915 all of them thinkers about the internet independently of each 590 00:33:16.915 --> 00:33:22.850 other came to and simultaneously came to roughly the same theory 591 00:33:22.850 --> 00:33:27.650 and conclusion. That is that the people in the highest leadership 592 00:33:27.650 --> 00:33:33.890 positions in government think about their primary job as 593 00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:38.995 creating content. So power, as it exists now in that group, has 594 00:33:38.995 --> 00:33:42.435 changed to be centered around and wielded by people who get 595 00:33:42.435 --> 00:33:43.875 attention online. 596 00:33:44.355 --> 00:33:47.795 So for a portion of the political ruling class right 597 00:33:47.795 --> 00:33:51.040 now, it's the only thing they literally know how to do or 598 00:33:51.040 --> 00:33:54.480 respect. I mean, we've got these podcasters. The head of the DOD 599 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.000 is a news presenter. That's his qualification. It's how they got 600 00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.640 their jobs. 601 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.745 It's how their successors are gonna get their jobs. Creating 602 00:34:02.745 --> 00:34:07.865 content is the currency of power that's happening right now. And 603 00:34:07.865 --> 00:34:10.665 all four of these writers identified this in reaction to 604 00:34:10.665 --> 00:34:14.345 Venezuela and the invasion that we did of them watching the 605 00:34:14.345 --> 00:34:19.600 Twitter reaction in the quote unquote situation room at Mar A 606 00:34:19.600 --> 00:34:23.680 Lago. But I think this applies to everything that's been 607 00:34:23.680 --> 00:34:27.840 happening in Minnesota right now. Don Moynihan, one of these 608 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:30.880 thinkers on his blog, and we'll link to all of these in the show 609 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.525 notes, used the term click tatorship to define this. 610 00:34:36.485 --> 00:34:41.125 He said that this behavior, that this thing leads to really big 611 00:34:41.125 --> 00:34:45.285 changes in behavior. He outlines that it incentivizes conflict 612 00:34:45.285 --> 00:34:49.120 between professional and online identities, which also leads to 613 00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:52.880 degrading professional norms and work practices. Recruiting 614 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.560 others high on the meme supply to working government, you can 615 00:34:56.560 --> 00:35:01.520 see a way where Shirley, who posted this video, is job 616 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:06.295 interviewing by posting this. Critically, think Don Moynihan 617 00:35:06.295 --> 00:35:10.215 says that it alters decision making to be responsive to 618 00:35:10.215 --> 00:35:14.935 social media. Charlie Warzel, one of the other writers, talks 619 00:35:14.935 --> 00:35:17.255 about it in this way that I think is helpful, which is as a 620 00:35:17.255 --> 00:35:18.695 culture of reaction videos. 621 00:35:19.310 --> 00:35:23.230 So the memes and the reactions that happen to any piece of news 622 00:35:23.230 --> 00:35:28.750 event happen now simultaneously with the news event. There is no 623 00:35:28.830 --> 00:35:32.665 before and after anymore. So when respond to something, 624 00:35:32.665 --> 00:35:35.545 you're not just responding to facts, you're not just 625 00:35:35.545 --> 00:35:39.065 responding to news, you're responding to memes, in memes, 626 00:35:39.065 --> 00:35:43.945 with memes, about memes. It's already too far down that line. 627 00:35:45.270 --> 00:35:49.510 And this content mix of content fueling content, it creates 628 00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:53.270 opportunities for itself, which is in itself a way to kind of 629 00:35:53.270 --> 00:35:56.070 distance the audience from taking any sort of direct action 630 00:35:56.070 --> 00:35:57.270 because it abstracts things. 631 00:35:57.270 --> 00:36:00.415 So Charla Warzel says, quote, this process is nihilistic, and 632 00:36:00.415 --> 00:36:04.015 it has a dehumanizing effect. Stories about people or 633 00:36:04.015 --> 00:36:07.775 countries in conflict become abstract, buried under a pile of 634 00:36:07.775 --> 00:36:11.535 memes and recursive references that exist for little more than 635 00:36:11.535 --> 00:36:16.620 scroll by entertainment. So I read all of this and I was like, 636 00:36:16.620 --> 00:36:20.060 wait a second, and then started mapping it against everything 637 00:36:20.060 --> 00:36:22.780 that we've just talked about. All the fraud and all the 638 00:36:22.780 --> 00:36:25.420 accusations of fraud and all the realities of fraud, and then 639 00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:29.020 what the fraud then means and how the fraud led to this 640 00:36:29.315 --> 00:36:32.755 invasion from ICE. And I'm just wondering, like, when you hear 641 00:36:32.755 --> 00:36:37.075 all of this now, how does a clicktatorship map onto that for 642 00:36:37.075 --> 00:36:37.635 you? 643 00:36:38.835 --> 00:36:42.680 Well, it does feel like the nothing happens anymore 644 00:36:42.680 --> 00:36:48.280 without the sort of right wing blogger poster ecosystem, like, 645 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.960 descending on that either physically or or online only. 646 00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:56.345 But we're seeing it this week in Minnesota, like, are right wing 647 00:36:56.345 --> 00:37:00.585 content creators who have sort of flown into town for this 648 00:37:00.585 --> 00:37:05.465 surge, for this, you know, increased number of troops that 649 00:37:05.465 --> 00:37:08.265 are here. Ryan Broderick, who's very excellent, Newsletter 650 00:37:08.265 --> 00:37:10.985 Garbage Day, you mentioned, like, is also in town right now. 651 00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:14.080 And he has a video from the Whipple Building this morning, 652 00:37:14.080 --> 00:37:17.200 which is the Federal building where sort of the ICE operations 653 00:37:17.200 --> 00:37:17.840 are, like, centered 654 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:18.720 and where they're the corridors. 655 00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:21.600 Yeah. Where they're taking people who are detained 656 00:37:21.600 --> 00:37:22.240 and everything else. 657 00:37:22.240 --> 00:37:23.600 And they're doing daily protests, morning 658 00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:24.000 protests. 659 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.275 Yes. Yes. So people people have been protesting 660 00:37:26.275 --> 00:37:29.315 outside the Whipple Building most mornings and and all day 661 00:37:29.315 --> 00:37:34.835 long. Ryan has a a video of an ICE agent sort of fist bumping 662 00:37:34.835 --> 00:37:40.200 with a right wing pro Trump content creator. And then, like, 663 00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:44.360 that content creator is allowed to cross the line that the ICE 664 00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:47.640 agents have formed while everyone else protesting or even 665 00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:48.760 covering the event. 666 00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:52.305 Like, other journalists are pushed back. So you can really 667 00:37:52.305 --> 00:37:55.825 see the way that these right wing creator like, you can 668 00:37:55.825 --> 00:37:58.545 visually see with your eyes the way that these right wing 669 00:37:58.545 --> 00:38:01.185 creators have been given this sort of privileged place in the 670 00:38:01.185 --> 00:38:04.705 administration while everyone else is kind of left on the 671 00:38:04.705 --> 00:38:10.030 outside. It's like really worrying. It's really worrying. 672 00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:12.430 I know. I think that it is really worrying, and 673 00:38:12.430 --> 00:38:15.230 it it's I think it's a little clarifying to have this theory 674 00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:18.190 kind of coalesce in the minds of a few different people who are 675 00:38:18.190 --> 00:38:20.535 really watching closely. And as soon as I read it, I was like, 676 00:38:20.535 --> 00:38:23.335 of course, that's what's happening. That makes it's one 677 00:38:23.335 --> 00:38:24.775 of those things that you're like, why didn't we see this 678 00:38:24.775 --> 00:38:26.935 before? I think we did see this before. 679 00:38:26.935 --> 00:38:29.975 We saw how much they're addicted to Twitter and addiction is a 680 00:38:29.975 --> 00:38:34.750 big part of this. We saw how much they are addicted to the 681 00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:37.550 audience that they perceive, and this is a thing we come back to 682 00:38:37.550 --> 00:38:40.030 in the show a lot, especially in our editorial meetings, is the 683 00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:43.870 imaginary internet points that you think that you get from any 684 00:38:43.870 --> 00:38:47.565 action that you take online. They have created an ecosystem 685 00:38:47.565 --> 00:38:51.165 where those imaginary internet points actually have a orange 686 00:38:51.165 --> 00:38:59.085 face and actually like a bad haircut. This is an ecosystem 687 00:38:59.325 --> 00:39:06.520 that feels scary because it's so untethered from the realities 688 00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:09.240 that it creates, because that's what we're seeing. This is the 689 00:39:09.240 --> 00:39:11.240 pattern we're seeing over and over again, is it creates these 690 00:39:11.240 --> 00:39:15.665 real actions where people die, their lives are ruined, where 691 00:39:15.665 --> 00:39:18.145 people are deported, where people are harassed, where who 692 00:39:18.145 --> 00:39:19.585 knows what's happening. 693 00:39:19.665 --> 00:39:22.465 People are losing funding, people are not able to feed 694 00:39:22.465 --> 00:39:26.385 themselves. That's real, but that's not considered or 695 00:39:26.385 --> 00:39:30.170 important in this. And it feels like sometimes posts are the 696 00:39:30.170 --> 00:39:34.730 only thing that matters. Like this group's only way to engage 697 00:39:34.730 --> 00:39:38.890 with the world is a post and using everything as an 698 00:39:38.890 --> 00:39:42.595 opportunity to generate more content. The ice surge as a 699 00:39:42.595 --> 00:39:46.915 content generating mechanism is such a depressing thing to say. 700 00:39:47.075 --> 00:39:47.795 I know. 701 00:39:48.195 --> 00:39:52.675 And yet And yet here we are mourning Renee Goode 702 00:39:52.675 --> 00:39:56.610 and trying to protest and trying to like have a voice in it. And 703 00:39:56.610 --> 00:40:01.650 it feels like that's a shocking thing to have to reconcile. 704 00:40:01.970 --> 00:40:05.250 And to your point about Renee Goode, I mean, the 705 00:40:05.570 --> 00:40:09.045 folks in the presidential administration were were posting 706 00:40:09.045 --> 00:40:14.005 about her death before we had basically any information. You 707 00:40:14.005 --> 00:40:17.525 know, like, I think, like, the the sort of post first ask 708 00:40:17.525 --> 00:40:21.285 questions later of it all is really, really damaging. 709 00:40:21.285 --> 00:40:21.765 Like Yeah. 710 00:40:22.060 --> 00:40:24.140 Calling her, you know, whatever they call her a 711 00:40:24.140 --> 00:40:26.460 professional agitator or the language they use, domestic 712 00:40:26.460 --> 00:40:31.180 terrorist, When, I like, we had basically no information about 713 00:40:31.180 --> 00:40:34.460 who this woman was, why she was there. We have a lot greater 714 00:40:34.460 --> 00:40:37.635 clarity now, but she had only been dead for a few hours when 715 00:40:37.795 --> 00:40:40.435 Yeah. When people in the administration were posting 716 00:40:40.435 --> 00:40:43.795 about her as a person and her character and what she was doing 717 00:40:43.795 --> 00:40:48.115 there and everything else. Just creating the narrative that, you 718 00:40:48.115 --> 00:40:51.480 know, that we would have to then go on to debunk. It, like, puts 719 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.520 you as someone who wants to tell the truth on your back foot 720 00:40:54.600 --> 00:40:57.720 because now you're in a position of having to react to the lies 721 00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:00.440 that have already started to proliferate throughout these 722 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:01.640 online spaces. 723 00:41:01.640 --> 00:41:02.200 That's right. 724 00:41:02.200 --> 00:41:03.480 It's it's really damaging. 725 00:41:04.535 --> 00:41:07.815 I've been thinking a lot about the raid that 726 00:41:07.815 --> 00:41:15.415 happened at Roosevelt High School on Wednesday. So just 727 00:41:15.415 --> 00:41:21.810 literally hours after the killing of Renee Goode, ICE 728 00:41:21.810 --> 00:41:26.210 agents stormed the grounds of Roosevelt High School, which is 729 00:41:26.210 --> 00:41:31.855 fairly nearby to that, and started tackling people. They 730 00:41:31.855 --> 00:41:35.615 punched out windows, they were shooting chemical weapons at 731 00:41:35.615 --> 00:41:39.295 people, they arrested two faculty members. And there's 732 00:41:39.295 --> 00:41:42.095 these videos that these students, these high schoolers 733 00:41:42.095 --> 00:41:47.270 are taking of this where they're just screaming and like it's 734 00:41:47.270 --> 00:41:51.670 just whistles everywhere. It's just this chaotic horrible thing 735 00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:55.510 and you're watching them body slam students into the ground on 736 00:41:55.510 --> 00:41:59.635 school property, which has been outlawed by the city of 737 00:41:59.635 --> 00:42:01.315 Minneapolis and the city of Saint Paul. 738 00:42:01.315 --> 00:42:05.235 They are not allowed to legally do that sort of thing. And it's 739 00:42:06.675 --> 00:42:09.475 shocking in the way that you would expect a post like that. 740 00:42:09.475 --> 00:42:12.595 Like it feels like it's made for the gram in a way, like it's 741 00:42:12.595 --> 00:42:17.530 made to be posted about. And the casualness of it being mere 742 00:42:17.530 --> 00:42:24.010 hours after they shot and killed Renee Goode is really sticking 743 00:42:24.010 --> 00:42:28.490 with me as being an indication of like, okay, yep, we got that 744 00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:32.155 one. Immediately, what's our next viral clip gonna be? 745 00:42:32.155 --> 00:42:33.515 Let's tackle some kids. 746 00:42:34.155 --> 00:42:39.835 Yeah. It does make you wonder like, is there a 747 00:42:39.835 --> 00:42:44.840 bottom? Is there a depth that we can yet reach? Like, I have 748 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:48.120 thought about those those videos and those photos from Roosevelt 749 00:42:48.120 --> 00:42:53.160 so much over the last few days because it really is like, you 750 00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:58.225 know, if I if my agency had killed a person in the street, 751 00:42:58.225 --> 00:43:02.785 I'd pack it up and call it a day. And I guess that's just, 752 00:43:02.865 --> 00:43:04.865 you know, they just keep right on going. 753 00:43:04.945 --> 00:43:07.985 Yeah. You pause for a moment just to be like, hey, 754 00:43:07.985 --> 00:43:12.610 let's slow down. Yeah. No, that was an escalation, right? And so 755 00:43:12.610 --> 00:43:17.250 speaking of escalations like Philando Castile, Ja'Marr Clark, 756 00:43:17.650 --> 00:43:19.970 George Floyd, now Renee Goode. 757 00:43:21.090 --> 00:43:23.745 Are we really about to do all this again? Like it's still 758 00:43:23.745 --> 00:43:26.865 tense here in the cities. There's protests happening in 759 00:43:27.505 --> 00:43:31.425 other cities around the country. The governor's getting mad. The 760 00:43:31.905 --> 00:43:33.665 National Guard has been activated. 761 00:43:33.745 --> 00:43:38.225 Like this, it feels like 2020 all of a sudden. Like, we doing 762 00:43:38.225 --> 00:43:38.705 this again? 763 00:43:39.270 --> 00:43:43.670 Yeah. It really feels strikingly similar. I on a 764 00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:47.590 personal level, I live basically equidistant between George Floyd 765 00:43:47.590 --> 00:43:50.630 Square and the intersection where Renee Goode was killed. 766 00:43:50.870 --> 00:43:54.095 And just the reaction from community members feels very 767 00:43:54.095 --> 00:43:58.495 much the same. The constantly circling helicopters overhead, 768 00:43:58.495 --> 00:43:59.535 that feels the same. 769 00:43:59.535 --> 00:44:02.815 Yeah. This feeling from the community of being 770 00:44:02.815 --> 00:44:07.120 simultaneously activated and wanting to help, but also 771 00:44:07.120 --> 00:44:10.320 feeling like, what do I do with this energy? How do I be 772 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:15.040 productive? And also this kind of feeling of helplessness, like 773 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:19.465 Philando, Jamar, George, Renee, they are dead. They have been 774 00:44:19.465 --> 00:44:23.865 taken from us by, you know, agents of the state. 775 00:44:24.585 --> 00:44:27.705 Yeah. This sort of feeling of like, does it ever stop? What 776 00:44:27.705 --> 00:44:31.145 would stop it? I don't know. 777 00:44:31.465 --> 00:44:34.890 Yeah. Why do you think Minnesota, so many of 778 00:44:34.890 --> 00:44:37.770 these things have happened? Why what is it about Minnesota that 779 00:44:37.770 --> 00:44:41.930 makes it a hotspot for these sorts of videos and then the 780 00:44:41.930 --> 00:44:43.370 reactions they generate? 781 00:44:43.850 --> 00:44:46.250 I've thought about this a lot and I have seen other 782 00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:49.075 people sort of working through this a lot online over the last 783 00:44:49.075 --> 00:44:53.635 few days. I think it's kind of twofold. I think one is that 784 00:44:54.435 --> 00:44:57.235 Minnesotans and people in the Twin Cities specifically really 785 00:44:57.235 --> 00:45:01.235 do show up for their communities in a way that I I'm not trying 786 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:03.080 to be like a Minnesota exceptionalism about this. Other 787 00:45:03.080 --> 00:45:03.720 people don't. Yeah. 788 00:45:03.720 --> 00:45:07.000 Not really. Yeah. I but I really do think that, like, people here 789 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.520 show up for their neighbors and and get involved. And when there 790 00:45:10.520 --> 00:45:12.840 is a chance to protest, they protest. And when there is a 791 00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:13.800 vigil, they go. 792 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:18.165 And when, you know, so so it kind of creates these scenes 793 00:45:18.165 --> 00:45:23.925 that are very striking. At the same time, I think we talked a 794 00:45:23.925 --> 00:45:26.965 little bit about the media ecosystem component of this. And 795 00:45:26.965 --> 00:45:30.060 actually, unlike some other major American cities, the Twin 796 00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:33.500 Cities does still have a pretty robust media ecosystem. We have 797 00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:36.460 phenomenal journalists and photojournalists over at NPR, 798 00:45:36.460 --> 00:45:40.860 Minnesota Public Radio. We have a phenomenal daily newspaper in 799 00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:41.660 the Star Tribune. 800 00:45:42.035 --> 00:45:45.395 We have lots of other, you know, the Minnesota Reformer, Hunt 801 00:45:45.395 --> 00:45:50.595 Journal. So we have like, are a tremendous number of local 802 00:45:50.595 --> 00:45:51.395 journalists There's 803 00:45:51.395 --> 00:45:52.515 one called Racket? 804 00:45:52.595 --> 00:45:54.675 Have you heard of it? Have you heard? Yeah. 805 00:45:55.100 --> 00:45:57.100 But it's true. Like, you're a part of this 806 00:45:57.100 --> 00:45:58.380 ecosystem. Absolutely. 807 00:45:58.620 --> 00:46:02.700 Yeah. So I think the kind of like getting the story 808 00:46:02.700 --> 00:46:07.100 out to the broader news media starts with that really robust 809 00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:11.075 media ecosystem that we have in the Twin Cities, where when 810 00:46:11.075 --> 00:46:13.555 something happens, when a woman is killed by ICE you know, a man 811 00:46:13.555 --> 00:46:17.395 was killed by ICE in Chicago, not not too long ago. 812 00:46:17.395 --> 00:46:18.755 Like week or something ago? 813 00:46:18.755 --> 00:46:22.355 Yes. And it just didn't feel like that kind of 814 00:46:22.355 --> 00:46:25.520 like got out beyond its immediate bubble unless you were 815 00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:28.480 really paying attention to this stuff. And with Renee Goode, I 816 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:30.960 think several things that are different about it are there 817 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.320 were multiple other observers, everyday citizens, who were 818 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.040 there filming the incident at the time, and that sort of falls 819 00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:39.795 into the first point of, like, people show up here. Yeah. And 820 00:46:39.795 --> 00:46:43.795 then the second part of it being the local media ecosystem sprang 821 00:46:43.795 --> 00:46:46.435 into action immediately following that. 822 00:46:46.435 --> 00:46:50.115 And I think that helps then get the story out and then it 823 00:46:50.115 --> 00:46:52.890 spreads online and it, you know, it becomes then a national and 824 00:46:52.890 --> 00:46:55.850 an international story in a way that it might not in other 825 00:46:55.850 --> 00:46:56.650 cities. 826 00:47:03.690 --> 00:47:06.890 Well, Em, I don't really know what's gonna happen 827 00:47:07.515 --> 00:47:08.315 Me either. 828 00:47:08.395 --> 00:47:09.595 Over the weekend. 829 00:47:11.755 --> 00:47:13.435 A lot of people have been asking me. I go into 830 00:47:13.435 --> 00:47:15.355 meetings and stuff and a lot of people are asking me like, how's 831 00:47:15.355 --> 00:47:17.995 it feel there? How's it feel there? And I'd say it feels 832 00:47:17.995 --> 00:47:20.155 scary right now. And I think it's going to be a tough 833 00:47:20.155 --> 00:47:20.715 weekend. 834 00:47:20.715 --> 00:47:24.600 There's a big protest planned for Saturday afternoon. We're 835 00:47:24.600 --> 00:47:27.960 going see what happens there over in Powderhorn Park. And 836 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.120 they're not stopping. They're not pulling back. In fact, 837 00:47:32.120 --> 00:47:36.555 they've just sent more agents in to add to the 2,000 plus that 838 00:47:36.555 --> 00:47:37.515 are already here. 839 00:47:38.475 --> 00:47:40.075 Are you going back out in the field? 840 00:47:40.395 --> 00:47:43.915 Yeah. I'll be out again today. I've been returning 841 00:47:43.915 --> 00:47:46.875 to thirty fourth in Portland a few times over the last couple 842 00:47:46.875 --> 00:47:50.320 of days. I will be at the protest this weekend and, yeah, 843 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.640 plan to 844 00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:54.080 keep showing up. Thanks for showing up, both in a 845 00:47:54.080 --> 00:47:56.400 wider sense and then in a direct sense of like, thanks for 846 00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.440 showing up on my screen and like hanging out with me and helping 847 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.240 me understand all this stuff. It's been really helpful to talk 848 00:48:02.955 --> 00:48:05.755 through the full ecology of these things or a little bit 849 00:48:05.755 --> 00:48:07.355 more of the full ecology of these things. 850 00:48:07.355 --> 00:48:09.195 So thanks for taking the time today. Yeah. I hope 851 00:48:09.195 --> 00:48:11.755 that it was helpful. I know it's it's difficult even here in the 852 00:48:11.755 --> 00:48:13.675 Twin Cities to kind of keep track of everything that's 853 00:48:13.675 --> 00:48:15.915 happening. So if you're trying to keep track of it from beyond, 854 00:48:15.915 --> 00:48:16.875 I can't even imagine. 855 00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:19.980 So, Em, where can people follow you if they want 856 00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:22.140 to follow more of this coverage and the stuff that you're doing? 857 00:48:22.140 --> 00:48:23.180 How can people find you? 858 00:48:23.180 --> 00:48:28.220 Absolutely. You can find Racket at racketmn.com. And 859 00:48:28.220 --> 00:48:30.300 if you're interested in following along with me, my 860 00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:33.755 social handle is bike trouble on most platforms. 861 00:48:33.755 --> 00:48:39.835 Yeah, it is. M Castle from Racket. Thank you so 862 00:48:39.835 --> 00:48:40.235 much. 863 00:48:40.235 --> 00:48:41.035 Thanks, Hans. 864 00:48:47.720 --> 00:48:53.080 So that is the show we have for you this week. We 865 00:48:53.080 --> 00:48:57.560 will be back here next Wednesday once more in your feed, and we 866 00:48:57.560 --> 00:49:01.240 have an update for you on what's happening with the show, some 867 00:49:01.240 --> 00:49:05.075 big big moves, and some fun moves. So make sure to tune in. 868 00:49:05.635 --> 00:49:10.595 Please go follow m Castle and Racket. And if you wanna follow 869 00:49:10.595 --> 00:49:14.515 more independent news in Minnesota, the Sahan Journal, S 870 00:49:14.515 --> 00:49:18.620 A H a n, or the Minnesota reformer are always worth 871 00:49:18.620 --> 00:49:19.580 checking out. 872 00:49:19.660 --> 00:49:23.020 Citycast Twin Cities is another one that both m and I are 873 00:49:23.020 --> 00:49:26.060 contributors for. And, of course, if you have independent 874 00:49:26.060 --> 00:49:30.220 media in your town who covers your local space, please find 875 00:49:30.220 --> 00:49:34.935 them, read, and listen. And if you can, give them a little bit 876 00:49:34.935 --> 00:49:39.095 of cash. Never post producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia 877 00:49:39.095 --> 00:49:42.855 Hampton, and the mysterious doctor. First name, last name. 878 00:49:42.855 --> 00:49:46.135 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. That's me. Our executive 879 00:49:46.135 --> 00:49:51.150 producer is Jason Oberholzer. The show's host most weeks is 880 00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:55.150 Mike Rignan. Neverpost is a production of Charts and Leisure 881 00:49:55.150 --> 00:49:57.470 and distributed by Radiotopia.