WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.400 --> 00:00:05.840 Friends, hello, and welcome to Neverpost, a 2 00:00:05.840 --> 00:00:08.160 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:14.075 Rugnetta, and this is the first ever archival pull on the 4 00:00:14.075 --> 00:00:17.355 Neverpost feed. Over this next year, we're gonna be dipping 5 00:00:17.355 --> 00:00:21.515 back into the archive to surface some segments you may have 6 00:00:21.515 --> 00:00:24.875 missed. Maybe you joined us more recently and haven't made your 7 00:00:24.875 --> 00:00:29.070 way through the back catalog. Maybe the other segment it was 8 00:00:29.070 --> 00:00:32.670 paired with caught your ear, you listened and then you stopped 9 00:00:32.670 --> 00:00:38.110 listening because you had to sit quietly thinking deeply about 10 00:00:38.110 --> 00:00:39.310 what you just heard. 11 00:00:39.630 --> 00:00:43.310 Don't worry, either way, we are here to trawl through our own 12 00:00:43.310 --> 00:00:47.945 past and bring to the surface only the finest pieces from the 13 00:00:47.945 --> 00:00:52.345 back catalog. Our first in this process seemed like an obvious 14 00:00:52.345 --> 00:00:56.340 choice, both because it was a segment in our first episode and 15 00:00:56.340 --> 00:01:00.980 also because it's a line of thought that's bracketed so much 16 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:05.380 of what we've done in the show since we started. You're about 17 00:01:05.380 --> 00:01:09.795 to hear me and my good friend Bijan Steven talk about posting 18 00:01:09.795 --> 00:01:16.115 disease or posters madness. An affliction of those too online 19 00:01:16.275 --> 00:01:20.275 who become unable to loose themselves from the internet's 20 00:01:20.275 --> 00:01:24.730 grasp and among other symptoms are unable to appreciate the 21 00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:29.770 wider world through any lens other than that of the online. 22 00:01:30.010 --> 00:01:33.210 In a way, the segment presents a fundamental question that we 23 00:01:33.210 --> 00:01:39.655 grapple with in every episode of Never How do you exist online? 24 00:01:39.735 --> 00:01:46.295 How do you use, enjoy, and maybe even advocate for the internet 25 00:01:46.695 --> 00:02:09.265 without going mad? Sometimes the internet makes me feel a little 26 00:02:09.265 --> 00:02:13.265 crazy as I'm sure it does you too. Social media especially. My 27 00:02:13.265 --> 00:02:17.585 friend Tim once used this phrase, diabolic merriment, 28 00:02:17.820 --> 00:02:21.980 which I think about often as the sort of like tizzy one can get 29 00:02:21.980 --> 00:02:26.620 in, caught in the swirling tides of online. For instance, you 30 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:28.620 know, like sometimes I stay up a little late. 31 00:02:28.940 --> 00:02:32.265 I think I don't have work tomorrow, I'll have a little 32 00:02:32.265 --> 00:02:38.025 scroll and we all know how this goes. Diabolic merriment. Then 33 00:02:38.025 --> 00:02:42.025 I'm up till the wee dark and the next morning I have scrollers 34 00:02:42.025 --> 00:02:47.470 remorse. A different kind of social hangover but I just I 35 00:02:47.470 --> 00:02:53.230 couldn't tear myself away. I'm lucky though, maybe, in that 36 00:02:53.230 --> 00:02:56.990 while I often spend too much time looking, I almost never 37 00:02:56.990 --> 00:03:00.590 spend that time posting, not anymore at least. 38 00:03:01.405 --> 00:03:03.325 Perhaps you're getting a little insight into why the show is 39 00:03:03.325 --> 00:03:07.645 named what it is. I don't really desire to contribute most of the 40 00:03:07.645 --> 00:03:12.445 time in posts because I know what it can lead to. I've lived 41 00:03:12.445 --> 00:03:16.200 it and I've learned that kind of thing is not for me, especially 42 00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:20.360 on social media sites like Twitter or X and Blue Sky, 43 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:27.815 etcetera. But some people, they live for it. They need the 44 00:03:27.815 --> 00:03:30.295 attention or some byproduct of it. 45 00:03:30.295 --> 00:03:35.975 They just can't stop themselves. Another friend of mine, Bijan 46 00:03:35.975 --> 00:03:39.655 Steven, said something to me once that I also think about 47 00:03:39.655 --> 00:03:45.000 often. A turn of phrase that is perhaps the other side of the 48 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.880 diabolic merriment coin. And that turn of phrase is what this 49 00:03:49.880 --> 00:03:55.815 segment is about. Joining me now is Bijan Steven. 50 00:03:56.935 --> 00:04:00.295 Bijan is a writer and narrative designer. He's written and 51 00:04:00.295 --> 00:04:04.775 reported for Vice, vox.com, and The Verge. He worked as a senior 52 00:04:04.775 --> 00:04:07.530 editor at campsite media where he hosted, reported, and 53 00:04:07.530 --> 00:04:11.050 produced the narrative history podcast eclipsed and the true 54 00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:14.650 crime series chameleon. He's currently a music critic at the 55 00:04:14.650 --> 00:04:18.715 nation and a contract writer at valve. Bijan and I also spend a 56 00:04:18.715 --> 00:04:21.515 lot of time together playing the actual play podcast Fun City, 57 00:04:21.515 --> 00:04:25.195 where Bijan is the mysterious retired boxer, TK. 58 00:04:25.755 --> 00:04:28.635 Bijan, welcome. It is very strange and fun to talk to you 59 00:04:28.635 --> 00:04:31.035 in a podcast setting where there are no dice involved. 60 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:34.530 Yeah. I it's a little weird, but I'm I'm liking 61 00:04:34.530 --> 00:04:37.250 the lack of a dice roller. I'm gonna be honest. They're not 62 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.770 terribly nice to me. But thank you for having me. 63 00:04:40.770 --> 00:04:41.730 I'm glad to be here. 64 00:04:42.050 --> 00:04:44.610 I have like a a big real question for you 65 00:04:45.250 --> 00:04:45.970 Mhmm. Mhmm. 66 00:04:45.970 --> 00:04:49.625 With some background. So a while ago, you 67 00:04:49.625 --> 00:04:53.545 and I were hanging out and we were talking about the Internet, 68 00:04:53.785 --> 00:04:58.665 as we are want to do, and you said something to me that has 69 00:04:58.665 --> 00:05:04.360 just stuck like a quill in my brain ever since. It is a turn 70 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:09.080 of phrase that I found so immediately resonant that, like, 71 00:05:09.080 --> 00:05:13.080 I cannot stop thinking about it. You described someone as having 72 00:05:13.865 --> 00:05:17.865 posting disease, the disease of posters of people who post 73 00:05:17.865 --> 00:05:21.385 things on the Internet, but crucially, it seems like it's 74 00:05:21.385 --> 00:05:26.185 not everyone who posts has posting disease, only certain 75 00:05:26.185 --> 00:05:31.070 people. So I was wondering, just to get us started, if right off 76 00:05:31.070 --> 00:05:35.550 the bat, you could just describe what is posting disease? 77 00:05:36.270 --> 00:05:39.630 Yeah. Of course. Posting disease, also known as 78 00:05:39.630 --> 00:05:44.275 posters madness, is, what happens to your brain, when 79 00:05:44.275 --> 00:05:47.315 you've been online too long and you start seeing the world and 80 00:05:47.315 --> 00:05:49.795 experiencing reality in terms of the post you're going to make 81 00:05:49.795 --> 00:05:52.355 about it. When you've spent so much time online that everything 82 00:05:52.355 --> 00:05:54.195 looks like a post to you or a potential post, 83 00:05:54.195 --> 00:05:57.290 I mean. Okay. This is interesting because I 84 00:05:57.290 --> 00:06:02.970 think of posting disease as when someone posts on the Internet 85 00:06:03.210 --> 00:06:10.410 and either just the action of posting or the very content of 86 00:06:10.410 --> 00:06:14.265 the post is going to be directly harmful to them. 87 00:06:14.265 --> 00:06:17.385 So to be clear, like, act of posting is bad for 88 00:06:17.385 --> 00:06:19.145 them and they know it and they do it anyway? 89 00:06:19.785 --> 00:06:20.425 Yeah. 90 00:06:20.985 --> 00:06:22.745 Yeah. I think that's related. Because I think 91 00:06:22.745 --> 00:06:27.660 I think I think one is the early symptoms and one is the far more 92 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:28.940 advanced disease. 93 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:31.260 Which one is the advanced side? 94 00:06:31.580 --> 00:06:33.820 I think I really like that when you when everyone 95 00:06:33.820 --> 00:06:36.300 in your life is like, I hate what you're doing. I hate your 96 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:39.900 posts and I hate you because of them. And, you know, you can't 97 00:06:39.900 --> 00:06:44.715 stop doing that or seeing the world in those terms. Like, if 98 00:06:44.715 --> 00:06:46.875 you're, for example, like, Graham Lineham, the guy who 99 00:06:46.875 --> 00:06:48.075 created the IT Crowd. 100 00:06:48.395 --> 00:06:50.075 Hey, Mike here. I just wanna break in really 101 00:06:50.075 --> 00:06:52.715 quickly to say, in case you don't know, Graham Linehan is a 102 00:06:52.715 --> 00:06:55.700 British TV producer who worked on Father Ted, Black Books, and 103 00:06:55.700 --> 00:06:59.300 the IT crowd. He has spent the last several years waging an 104 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.500 unceasingly cruel crusade against the trans community 105 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:06.820 online. By his own account, this has made his life much harder. 106 00:07:06.820 --> 00:07:08.420 Or as Bijan goes on to say. 107 00:07:09.035 --> 00:07:11.035 Like, you just you lose your mind, you lose 108 00:07:11.035 --> 00:07:13.755 your wife, then you lose your job, and then you lose your 109 00:07:13.755 --> 00:07:18.315 agents, and you descend into a hell of your own making, which 110 00:07:18.315 --> 00:07:22.310 is just populated by your thoughts about the world. And 111 00:07:22.310 --> 00:07:25.590 there's a bunch of people you can see agreeing with you, but 112 00:07:25.590 --> 00:07:29.670 nobody else in your real life appears to. And I think it takes 113 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:33.590 months of posts like that before you sort of get to you really 114 00:07:33.590 --> 00:07:35.510 have full blown Poster's disease. 115 00:07:36.045 --> 00:07:39.725 Do you think that posting disease is a kind of 116 00:07:39.725 --> 00:07:46.445 addiction to social media that clouds otherwise open and 117 00:07:46.445 --> 00:07:49.565 receptive parts of your personality? Or do you think it 118 00:07:49.565 --> 00:07:52.790 like it's bigger than that or or less? 119 00:07:52.950 --> 00:07:55.190 I think it's I I I feel like it's an unfortunate 120 00:07:55.190 --> 00:07:58.230 consequence of living on an Internet that people have 121 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:02.070 decided needs to make a ton of money. Like, the the reasons 122 00:08:02.070 --> 00:08:05.670 that posting disease develops into posters madness, etcetera, 123 00:08:06.335 --> 00:08:09.375 are specifically because of the incentives. Right? Like, 124 00:08:09.695 --> 00:08:13.615 algorithmically sorted feeds reward certain kinds of posts 125 00:08:13.615 --> 00:08:16.655 and don't reward other kinds of posts. And once you've learned 126 00:08:16.655 --> 00:08:20.390 how to get the algorithm to notice your posts, that's where 127 00:08:20.390 --> 00:08:22.950 the disease sort of begins to develop. 128 00:08:23.190 --> 00:08:26.790 And I think because all of these algorithms to a larger or lesser 129 00:08:26.790 --> 00:08:30.470 extent prioritize engagement, which means like engagement from 130 00:08:30.470 --> 00:08:33.585 all of the other users seeing your post, Any post with like 131 00:08:33.585 --> 00:08:39.585 sufficiently inflammatory or out there or just weird ideas can 132 00:08:39.585 --> 00:08:42.865 get picked up because other people are either dunking on it, 133 00:08:42.865 --> 00:08:44.545 is another signal to the algorithm. This is more 134 00:08:44.545 --> 00:08:46.945 engagement. Like because like the other thing, engagement is 135 00:08:46.945 --> 00:08:50.420 neutral. It's like to an algorithm, a dunk is the same 136 00:08:50.420 --> 00:08:54.020 as, like, not a dunk. It's the same kind of engagement. 137 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:56.900 The more people hate it, the more it gets shared, the more it 138 00:08:56.900 --> 00:09:00.980 gets dunked on, the more engagement you get. I mean and 139 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:04.895 all of these, like, behaviors are positively reinforced by, 140 00:09:04.895 --> 00:09:07.775 like, the numbers. Right? The metrics go up when you do these 141 00:09:07.775 --> 00:09:10.095 things. This is a very seductive illness. 142 00:09:10.095 --> 00:09:13.455 It's like something that truly, like, it it takes hold very 143 00:09:13.455 --> 00:09:16.250 subtly. And then when you realize maybe what's happening, 144 00:09:16.250 --> 00:09:19.210 you're kind of in too deep to stop. Those decisions, those 145 00:09:19.210 --> 00:09:22.730 behind the scenes technical decisions of what to weight more 146 00:09:22.730 --> 00:09:25.770 heavily and what to promote and what not to promote, I think, 147 00:09:26.010 --> 00:09:28.330 are the things that actually induce posting disease in 148 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:32.415 people. Because the human brain is not designed to produce this 149 00:09:32.415 --> 00:09:35.935 much dopamine kind of, like, every notification gives you a 150 00:09:35.935 --> 00:09:40.335 little hit of a good feeling. And I think that specifically, 151 00:09:40.335 --> 00:09:45.860 the act of being able to receive positive reinforcement at a at a 152 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:46.260 distance. 153 00:09:46.260 --> 00:09:48.420 And to, like, summon it. You can, like, you 154 00:09:48.420 --> 00:09:51.540 can Yeah. You can really, like, cast a spell and have it brought 155 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:52.180 to you. 156 00:09:52.660 --> 00:09:54.180 And it's it's really powerful, especially if 157 00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:57.300 you're feeling lonely or isolated or somewhere where you 158 00:09:57.300 --> 00:09:59.300 can't really get that affirmation in real life. I 159 00:09:59.300 --> 00:10:01.735 think it's it's really powerful, but it's a double edged sword. 160 00:10:01.735 --> 00:10:03.655 Right? Like, it's it can be really good for you or really 161 00:10:03.655 --> 00:10:06.775 bad for you. And it can both be good and bad at the same time, 162 00:10:06.775 --> 00:10:09.095 which I think is the confusing part about all of this. 163 00:10:10.055 --> 00:10:13.815 Okay. So now that we have, like, a sort of 164 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.480 theoretical backbone and a definition, I wonder if we can 165 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:19.800 get practical and just talk about what are some things out 166 00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:23.880 in the world that are the biggest examples of posting 167 00:10:23.880 --> 00:10:28.415 disease or even, like, people who exhibit it almost, like, 168 00:10:28.415 --> 00:10:29.615 paradigmatically? 169 00:10:30.255 --> 00:10:34.415 Yeah. I think, the most obvious answer, is Elon 170 00:10:34.415 --> 00:10:37.935 Musk. I think Graham Lineham, who I mentioned earlier, another 171 00:10:37.935 --> 00:10:42.560 guy who suffers from posting disease. I think any turf in The 172 00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:45.680 UK, all the Mumsnet posters, those those people are fucking 173 00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:46.320 nuts. 174 00:10:46.640 --> 00:10:49.520 What do they all share that makes that puts them 175 00:10:49.520 --> 00:10:50.400 in this group? 176 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:56.995 They share they share a desire to be victimized, 177 00:10:57.155 --> 00:11:02.035 to be the victim of whatever situation they're in. I think 178 00:11:02.035 --> 00:11:06.275 they also seem to share, like, this this basic sense of 179 00:11:06.515 --> 00:11:11.350 aggrievedness. Like, they are they are perpetually crotchety 180 00:11:11.350 --> 00:11:14.550 about something in society. Like, they want to convince 181 00:11:14.550 --> 00:11:17.430 people that their views are correct about things, and that 182 00:11:17.430 --> 00:11:19.510 the way they see the world is the right way to see it. 183 00:11:20.355 --> 00:11:22.195 That's a big thing, I think, for this group 184 00:11:22.195 --> 00:11:27.635 of people specifically like Elon Musk, Graham, JK Rowling. 185 00:11:27.635 --> 00:11:28.115 Exactly. 186 00:11:28.115 --> 00:11:30.835 It's like they all seem like they really they 187 00:11:30.835 --> 00:11:34.435 want a very specific group of people to like them. 188 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:34.980 Yes. 189 00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:37.860 And for some reason, they view posting as the 190 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:42.020 main way to do that. Yes. And in it seems like instead what is 191 00:11:42.020 --> 00:11:45.860 happening is that for each of them, it is just ruining them. 192 00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:48.740 Posters madness in in its most full blown forms 193 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:51.595 is like it's like drinking seawater. Like, yeah, maybe 194 00:11:51.595 --> 00:11:53.595 you'll feel a little less thirsty, and then you'll feel 195 00:11:53.595 --> 00:11:56.395 much more thirsty. It's never going to accomplish a thing you 196 00:11:56.395 --> 00:11:57.195 want it to. 197 00:11:57.995 --> 00:11:59.835 But I think we should say also or we should 198 00:11:59.835 --> 00:12:04.155 recognize that this is a very particular stripe of posting 199 00:12:04.155 --> 00:12:07.430 madness. And that to me, there is there is another stripe of 200 00:12:07.430 --> 00:12:11.350 it, which is like Chrissy Teigen, who has Yeah. Publicly 201 00:12:11.350 --> 00:12:14.710 admitted. She's like, I have like, I gotta step away. I am 202 00:12:14.710 --> 00:12:16.870 doing this too much, and then couldn't. 203 00:12:16.870 --> 00:12:17.830 And like, k you know? 204 00:12:18.105 --> 00:12:20.825 She also has not seemed to have posted on Twitter 205 00:12:20.825 --> 00:12:22.585 since May 8, so there is hope. 206 00:12:22.585 --> 00:12:25.145 Or like, does Alyssa Milano belong in this 207 00:12:25.145 --> 00:12:25.945 grouping at all? 208 00:12:25.945 --> 00:12:27.225 Yes. Absolutely. 209 00:12:27.545 --> 00:12:29.945 Okay. So what what why? You're looking at the 210 00:12:29.945 --> 00:12:30.825 post right now. Can you 211 00:12:30.825 --> 00:12:34.080 tell us why? Resistance posters are also like 212 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:36.240 they they fall into this category because they do think 213 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.680 post online are equivalent to taking actions in the real 214 00:12:39.680 --> 00:12:44.240 world, like with your physical hands and legs and stuff. And 215 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.715 the idea that you have to weigh in on everything that happens in 216 00:12:47.715 --> 00:12:51.795 your specific domain is is is a sign. It's like that's another 217 00:12:51.795 --> 00:12:52.355 symptom. 218 00:12:52.355 --> 00:12:55.795 I think of Alyssa Milano as belonging to a group 219 00:12:55.795 --> 00:13:00.115 of people who have a posting madness that also includes, 220 00:13:00.115 --> 00:13:01.795 like, say, Brooklyn dad defiant. 221 00:13:02.250 --> 00:13:04.250 Yeah. Who is resistance grifter. Yeah. Yeah. 222 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:05.770 Yeah. Yeah. Another sort of like, yeah, 223 00:13:05.770 --> 00:13:09.210 resistance grifter or, you know, depending upon who you talk to, 224 00:13:09.210 --> 00:13:14.410 like, party operative, liberal shit poster Yeah. Is something 225 00:13:14.410 --> 00:13:18.245 I've seen people describe him as. People who are doing this 226 00:13:18.245 --> 00:13:20.325 kind of, fight picking, you know. 227 00:13:20.325 --> 00:13:24.805 It's like every post is arguing against some imagined 228 00:13:24.805 --> 00:13:29.845 interlocutor who might never actually exist or interact with 229 00:13:29.250 --> 00:13:29.570 them. 230 00:13:29.570 --> 00:13:31.490 Right. You make up a guy and get fucking mad at 231 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:32.930 them. That's a classic classic way 232 00:13:32.930 --> 00:13:36.210 of us a guy. The classic move. Make up a guy. 233 00:13:36.210 --> 00:13:40.770 I think, the most enduring discourses are, like, 234 00:13:40.770 --> 00:13:44.135 the low stakes cultural friction ones. Like, it's like washing 235 00:13:44.135 --> 00:13:46.135 your legs. White people don't wash their legs. That was a 236 00:13:46.135 --> 00:13:48.775 discourse. The dress, another kind of it wasn't really a 237 00:13:48.775 --> 00:13:53.735 discourse, but it was like the kind of thing that is extremely 238 00:13:53.735 --> 00:13:56.830 low stakes that everyone can have an opinion on and everyone 239 00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:59.470 can do a riff on because, you know, it's that's the whole 240 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:02.110 thing is where you can do you see it, or do you not see it, or 241 00:14:02.110 --> 00:14:02.830 what are you seeing? 242 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:03.230 You know? 243 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:04.350 And it's something you can have a 244 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:06.430 perspective about what's right on. 245 00:14:06.670 --> 00:14:09.230 Exactly. And it's so low stakes that it does not 246 00:14:09.230 --> 00:14:09.390 matter. 247 00:14:09.925 --> 00:14:12.245 Maybe the the sort of hierarchy that we're 248 00:14:12.245 --> 00:14:16.485 developing here as far as what meaningful vectors of posting 249 00:14:16.485 --> 00:14:23.350 disease are is that all trends are low level vectors of posting 250 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:25.830 disease. It is possible that they will trigger its 251 00:14:25.830 --> 00:14:30.790 development, but that any amount of discourse is a stronger 252 00:14:30.790 --> 00:14:36.390 vector. And the more one can reasonably say that they are 253 00:14:36.390 --> 00:14:41.185 correct about their take on that discourse, the stronger the 254 00:14:41.185 --> 00:14:45.265 vector for posting disease it is. So something like the dress 255 00:14:45.425 --> 00:14:49.505 is like, I think probably very low likelihood that someone 256 00:14:49.505 --> 00:14:53.190 could be insistent that their perspective on it is absolutely 257 00:14:53.190 --> 00:14:55.590 factually right. Whereas Right. 258 00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:58.470 Washing your legs is something that I feel like is maybe a 259 00:14:58.470 --> 00:15:01.830 middle of the road. You can more vociferously defend your 260 00:15:01.830 --> 00:15:04.790 position as being correct, especially I think if your 261 00:15:04.790 --> 00:15:08.165 position is wash the legs because that feels like moral 262 00:15:08.165 --> 00:15:09.045 high ground. 263 00:15:09.205 --> 00:15:12.165 Yes. I think the Internet is is flattening in the 264 00:15:12.165 --> 00:15:14.325 way that it does not seem to allow people to have two 265 00:15:14.325 --> 00:15:17.365 thoughts about the world at the same time. Nuance is not 266 00:15:17.365 --> 00:15:20.480 incentivized, and I think that's why posting in the gray area 267 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.080 about gray area subjects is always going to lead to, like, 268 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.520 stronger, worse opinions, because other people could be 269 00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:29.120 right. You know? Yeah. 270 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.095 If you're recognizing yourself in some of these examples, maybe 271 00:15:32.095 --> 00:15:35.135 it's time to take a second and think because I do think this is 272 00:15:35.135 --> 00:15:38.015 not untreatable. It's not like something it's not like death 273 00:15:38.015 --> 00:15:40.255 sentence. It's not like an a social death sentence, should 274 00:15:40.255 --> 00:15:44.910 say. You just have to, like, sit down and rethink what's going 275 00:15:44.910 --> 00:15:48.510 on. Like, you you just need to to make sure that your 276 00:15:48.510 --> 00:15:52.030 engagement with these social platforms and the Internet at 277 00:15:52.030 --> 00:15:54.510 large is something that is positive and healthy and 278 00:15:54.510 --> 00:15:57.070 generative and not something that's, you know, making you 279 00:15:57.070 --> 00:15:58.510 feel terrible all the time. 280 00:15:58.670 --> 00:16:00.585 Like, if you're wondering why people are just yelling at you 281 00:16:00.585 --> 00:16:02.505 all day and your mentions, the problem is you. 282 00:16:02.985 --> 00:16:06.185 To follow our epidemiological metaphor that we 283 00:16:06.185 --> 00:16:10.425 have with posting disease at least, less so posting madness. 284 00:16:10.665 --> 00:16:14.940 I wonder if we could get prescriptive and to say Sure. 285 00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:19.580 You, the poster, the imagined poster, here are the things that 286 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:24.380 you can do, the preventative measures that you can take to 287 00:16:24.460 --> 00:16:29.635 prevent yourself from contracting this illness. What 288 00:16:29.635 --> 00:16:35.235 is the pre post safety checklist, that that we can put 289 00:16:35.235 --> 00:16:35.875 together? 290 00:16:35.955 --> 00:16:39.315 Yeah. That's a good idea. I I think, knowing 291 00:16:39.315 --> 00:16:42.275 what your post is about and what your real intentions with it 292 00:16:42.275 --> 00:16:44.710 are. Are you trying to promote something? Are you trying to 293 00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:45.670 start some Discourse? 294 00:16:45.670 --> 00:16:47.350 Are you trying to respond to some Discourse? Are you 295 00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:50.710 subtweeting? Like, are you what are what are you doing? Second 296 00:16:50.710 --> 00:16:54.150 thing is thinking about the potential impact of your post on 297 00:16:54.150 --> 00:16:57.575 your life. Is this going to make your life marginally worse in 298 00:16:57.575 --> 00:17:00.215 the next twenty minutes to two days? 299 00:17:00.775 --> 00:17:04.055 And if so, like, just don't don't do it if you can't handle 300 00:17:04.055 --> 00:17:06.775 it. You know? Like, if if you can't handle the heat 301 00:17:06.935 --> 00:17:08.455 Stay out of the posting kitchen. 302 00:17:09.170 --> 00:17:11.970 Stay out of the posting kitchen because you're 303 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:16.130 not ready to cook. If you are going to post and you've decided 304 00:17:16.130 --> 00:17:19.010 to make the post and you're you have your heart set on it, just 305 00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:22.455 think about, like, whether or not you actually want to handle 306 00:17:22.455 --> 00:17:25.735 the kind of criticism that you might invite from the worst bad 307 00:17:25.735 --> 00:17:28.535 faith readers online who can't tell between not liking 308 00:17:28.535 --> 00:17:30.455 something and thinking it's morally bad. You know? Like 309 00:17:30.455 --> 00:17:33.815 like, what will you do when your post if your post escapes 310 00:17:33.815 --> 00:17:34.615 containment? You know? 311 00:17:34.615 --> 00:17:38.110 That's I think that's another good question to ask yourself. I 312 00:17:38.110 --> 00:17:41.230 will also say the one thing that you should really do is just 313 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.430 never assume the thing you're doing is normal because there 314 00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:47.070 are so many people and so many different kinds of experiences. 315 00:17:47.310 --> 00:17:51.150 And it's the the funniest low stakes dunks are people being 316 00:17:51.150 --> 00:17:53.475 like, what? You don't wash your legs? That was like a week of 317 00:17:53.475 --> 00:17:54.675 discourse on Twitter. 318 00:17:54.755 --> 00:17:58.675 And it's just like, Why did we do that? 319 00:17:58.675 --> 00:18:01.155 Do I absolutely need to contribute to this 320 00:18:01.155 --> 00:18:03.955 conversation is I think a very important question to ask 321 00:18:03.955 --> 00:18:04.435 oneself. That's 322 00:18:04.915 --> 00:18:06.675 that is really the question. That's the the 323 00:18:06.675 --> 00:18:09.440 guiding thing. It's like, what am I actually doing here? 324 00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:12.400 Can I just turn to someone or text a friend 325 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:13.600 about this instead? 326 00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:15.600 I think one thing to remember is that there's 327 00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:19.040 almost no way to win an argument online because people will never 328 00:18:19.040 --> 00:18:22.035 say that they were wrong. If you're actually sure about what 329 00:18:22.035 --> 00:18:25.395 you're doing and you realize people just don't understand it, 330 00:18:25.395 --> 00:18:26.275 that's one thing. 331 00:18:26.275 --> 00:18:27.955 But then you gotta be able to walk away. 332 00:18:27.955 --> 00:18:29.315 You gotta be able to walk away. You also gotta be 333 00:18:29.315 --> 00:18:31.715 able to distinguish when you've actually been wrong. So if 334 00:18:31.715 --> 00:18:34.710 you're going to post, admit to yourself the possibility that 335 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:37.510 you might be wrong about what you're posting. If somebody's 336 00:18:37.510 --> 00:18:38.710 like, hey. Rethink this. 337 00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:41.350 I have to be able to distinguish from whether they're being 338 00:18:41.350 --> 00:18:45.165 assholes or not and trying to just teach me something. Because 339 00:18:45.165 --> 00:18:47.965 it is your responsibility if you're going to post. You you 340 00:18:47.965 --> 00:18:51.165 can't miss an opportunity for learning, I think. Like, because 341 00:18:51.165 --> 00:18:54.445 posting is obviously a two way street. Like, you you are 342 00:18:54.445 --> 00:18:56.925 reaching out to a bunch of other people to try and connect with 343 00:18:56.925 --> 00:18:57.085 them. 344 00:18:57.710 --> 00:19:02.190 And it is I think the base your base responsibility to have the 345 00:19:02.190 --> 00:19:04.430 humility to think that you might be wrong and somebody hit and 346 00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:06.350 other people have things to teach you, you know? 347 00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:13.225 I think that's extremely meaningful and great 348 00:19:13.225 --> 00:19:13.945 advice. 349 00:19:14.345 --> 00:19:16.105 I've this is the the advice that I'm always 350 00:19:16.105 --> 00:19:19.705 trying to take myself, but I hope somebody finds it useful. 351 00:19:21.145 --> 00:19:23.945 Bijan, thank you so much for joining us. I really 352 00:19:23.945 --> 00:19:25.785 appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule to have a 353 00:19:25.785 --> 00:19:28.690 chat with us about posting disease and how to avoid it. 354 00:19:29.170 --> 00:19:30.930 Of course. Anytime. I love talking about 355 00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:34.530 posting, unfortunately, which is it's in itself, you know, that's 356 00:19:34.530 --> 00:19:35.490 a slippery slope. 357 00:19:35.570 --> 00:19:38.290 Where can people find you and your work online? 358 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:40.165 The place I'm posting the most these days is 359 00:19:40.165 --> 00:19:44.165 Blue Sky. But, yeah, you know, I I do I have a blog. I have a 360 00:19:44.165 --> 00:19:48.165 website. It's bichonsteven.blog. That's right. 361 00:19:48.165 --> 00:19:48.565 Let's go. 362 00:19:58.850 --> 00:20:01.330 That is the archival episode we have for you 363 00:20:01.330 --> 00:20:05.330 today. If you'd like to listen to the original upload with news 364 00:20:05.330 --> 00:20:08.610 and interstitials, you can find the link in the show notes. 365 00:20:08.965 --> 00:20:13.685 Neverpost is primarily listener funded. So if you enjoyed this 366 00:20:13.685 --> 00:20:17.125 segment, please consider becoming a member at neverpo.st. 367 00:20:17.125 --> 00:20:20.565 You can gain access to an ad free member feed while helping 368 00:20:20.565 --> 00:20:22.005 us keep the show going. 369 00:20:22.670 --> 00:20:26.270 Never posts producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 370 00:20:26.270 --> 00:20:29.150 mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior producer 371 00:20:29.150 --> 00:20:32.750 is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer, 372 00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:37.425 and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. I like a 373 00:20:37.425 --> 00:20:41.185 wreckage I can manage myself. The chance it offers for that 374 00:20:41.185 --> 00:20:45.505 particular version of power that comes from winnowing cleanly the 375 00:20:45.505 --> 00:20:48.065 lost from the still salvageable. 376 00:20:48.305 --> 00:20:52.570 Not erasing disorder exactly, but returning order to a fair 377 00:20:52.570 --> 00:20:56.330 footing at least beside a wilderness I wouldn't live 378 00:20:56.330 --> 00:21:02.655 without. Excerpt of If You Will, I Will by Carl Phillips. Never 379 00:21:02.655 --> 00:21:05.935 Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and is distributed 380 00:21:06.175 --> 00:21:07.375 by Radiotopia.