WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.755 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13.755 --> 00:00:15.675 podcast foreign about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:15.675 --> 00:00:22.075 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Monday, 11/03/2025 at 09:16PM 4 00:00:22.075 --> 00:00:26.980 eastern, and we have a hard hitting show for you this week. 5 00:00:27.380 --> 00:00:31.780 Hans talks with public interest lawyer Paul Levy about the case 6 00:00:31.780 --> 00:00:36.980 of Pool World versus prepared foods photos, fighting online 7 00:00:36.980 --> 00:00:41.405 copyright trolls, and winning. Then friend of the show, Meaghel 8 00:00:41.405 --> 00:00:47.085 Janardan brings drama to the house never post asking what is 9 00:00:47.085 --> 00:00:53.840 going on here about cheating boyfriend videos and also Tokyo. 10 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:56.320 But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna 11 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.120 listen to some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we 12 00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:01.120 return, we're gonna talk about a few of the things that have 13 00:01:01.120 --> 00:01:05.615 happened since the last time you heard from us. I'm not gonna 14 00:01:05.615 --> 00:01:07.295 give up. I'm not gonna stop. 15 00:01:07.295 --> 00:01:11.295 I'm gonna read you five stories this week. The United States 16 00:01:11.295 --> 00:01:15.615 Department of Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs 17 00:01:15.615 --> 00:01:20.400 Enforcement Agency are amongst the biggest advertisers on meta 18 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.400 platforms at the moment according to polydashboard.com, 19 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.480 ranking sixteenth and eighteenth respectively at the time of 20 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.705 writing. Over the last seven days, it's estimated the 21 00:01:31.705 --> 00:01:35.945 agencies have paid a combined total of between 1.1 and 22 00:01:35.945 --> 00:01:42.425 $1,200,000 for more than 50,000,000 impressions across 23 00:01:42.425 --> 00:01:46.460 Facebook and Instagram. According to Poly Dashboard, ICE 24 00:01:46.460 --> 00:01:51.260 largely advertises job openings in English, while DHS places ads 25 00:01:51.260 --> 00:01:59.275 in Spanish encouraging, as they call it, self deportation. China 26 00:01:59.275 --> 00:02:03.835 is now regulating influencers who must, quote, either have a 27 00:02:03.835 --> 00:02:07.515 university degree, recognized training, a license, or 28 00:02:07.515 --> 00:02:10.860 certification, writes the economic times, before 29 00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:15.580 publishing content in regulated areas, which are medical advice, 30 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:19.100 financial guidance, legal opinions, or commentary on 31 00:02:19.100 --> 00:02:19.980 education. 32 00:02:20.380 --> 00:02:23.095 Before posting about these things, platforms must verify 33 00:02:23.095 --> 00:02:26.615 the existence of up to date credentials. The law also 34 00:02:26.615 --> 00:02:29.655 specifies that creators must clearly mark AI generated 35 00:02:29.655 --> 00:02:43.740 content and share their sources. Mister Beast employs over a 36 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:47.875 thousand clippers to create short snippets of his work to 37 00:02:47.875 --> 00:02:51.475 share on social media boosting his reach. This according to 38 00:02:51.475 --> 00:02:56.115 Bloomberg. The clippers are paid $50 for every 100,000 views of 39 00:02:56.115 --> 00:03:00.675 their handiwork on TikTok or Instagram via a startup called, 40 00:03:00.915 --> 00:03:03.670 you're not gonna believe this, clipping, which which employs 41 00:03:03.670 --> 00:03:06.230 over 23,000 clippers in total. 42 00:03:06.390 --> 00:03:09.110 The practice is common amongst extremely popular online 43 00:03:09.110 --> 00:03:14.230 personalities, particularly streamers. My main goal says 44 00:03:14.230 --> 00:03:18.415 clipping founder, 23 year old Anthony Fujiwara, is that if you 45 00:03:18.415 --> 00:03:24.655 want to go viral, you have to go through me. Australia has sued 46 00:03:24.815 --> 00:03:27.695 Microsoft. The country's competition and consumer 47 00:03:27.695 --> 00:03:30.415 commission has brought suit against the software giant for 48 00:03:30.415 --> 00:03:34.070 false or misleading information regarding its Microsoft three 49 00:03:34.070 --> 00:03:37.270 sixty five subscription plans, alleging that the company 50 00:03:37.270 --> 00:03:41.430 suggested consumers could either cancel their subscription or pay 51 00:03:41.430 --> 00:03:45.590 a higher price on renewal for the integration of Copilot AI 52 00:03:45.590 --> 00:03:50.425 tools. When in fact, there was apparently a hidden third option 53 00:03:50.425 --> 00:03:53.545 which allowed consumers to retain both their feature set 54 00:03:53.545 --> 00:03:55.465 and lower price. 55 00:03:55.545 --> 00:03:58.905 This all according to Australia's The Register. Quote, 56 00:03:58.905 --> 00:04:02.280 Microsoft deliberately omitted reference to the classic plans 57 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:07.080 in its communications, the ACCC will allege, and concealed their 58 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.960 existence until after subscribers initiated the 59 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:19.825 cancellation process, end labels for broadband may get 80 sixed. 60 00:04:19.825 --> 00:04:23.985 Since April 2024 in The US, broadband service providers have 61 00:04:23.985 --> 00:04:27.345 had to disclose the exact fee structure that customers will 62 00:04:27.345 --> 00:04:31.760 pay in so called nutrition labels. A regulation aimed at 63 00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:35.040 increasing transparency for consumers by showing exactly 64 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.520 what they are being charged for. I know. 65 00:04:37.520 --> 00:04:41.360 What a novel idea. Crazy to think about. Of course, Brendan 66 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.385 Carr's FCC is set to reverse this policy. He describes the 67 00:04:45.385 --> 00:04:50.345 task of finding these nutrition labels as Sisyphean. Quote, but 68 00:04:50.345 --> 00:04:53.625 rather than adopt rules that would make the labels easier to 69 00:04:53.625 --> 00:04:58.105 find or interpret, CNET writes, Carr voted to make them appear 70 00:04:58.105 --> 00:05:00.000 less often, end quote. 71 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.680 The FCC is set to vote on the proposed rule making today at 72 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:06.800 time of recording, after which there will be thirty days for 73 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.520 public comment on the matter followed by thirty days of 74 00:05:09.520 --> 00:05:12.320 response. We'll put a link to the public comment form in the 75 00:05:12.320 --> 00:05:14.865 show notes when it's live in case you would like to 76 00:05:14.865 --> 00:05:19.425 contribute. In past studies, according to CNET, 85% of 77 00:05:19.425 --> 00:05:23.185 respondents found broadband nutrition labels useful for 78 00:05:23.185 --> 00:05:33.800 comparison shopping. In show news this week, it's the 79 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:37.880 Radiotopia year end fundraiser, which means it's a great time to 80 00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:41.480 give a few bucks and support all of your favorite Radiotopia 81 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:45.545 shows and Radiotopia itself all at once. So head on over to 82 00:05:45.545 --> 00:05:51.065 radiotopia.fm/donate to give any one time or monthly amount to 83 00:05:51.065 --> 00:05:52.585 support all your favorites. 84 00:05:52.665 --> 00:05:56.345 That's Home Cooking, Proxy, Hyperfixed, Song Exploder, The 85 00:05:56.345 --> 00:06:00.590 Memory Palace, and of course, never post alongside the network 86 00:06:00.590 --> 00:06:06.030 itself. That's radiotopia.fm/donate. Okay. 87 00:06:06.030 --> 00:06:08.670 That's the news I have for you this week. In this episode, Hans 88 00:06:08.670 --> 00:06:13.115 and Paul Levy on copyright trolls, fighting them and then 89 00:06:13.355 --> 00:06:14.075 winning. 90 00:06:14.155 --> 00:06:18.475 Then Meagle brings an infidelitous, what, to the 91 00:06:18.475 --> 00:06:23.355 goings on here. But first, in our interstitials this week, for 92 00:06:23.355 --> 00:06:27.040 no particular reason other than we have it on hand, Street 93 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.880 Sounds of Tokyo, recorded when I was there last month. 94 00:07:56.870 --> 00:07:59.830 Have you ever had this feeling? A letter shows up 95 00:07:59.830 --> 00:08:03.110 on official letterhead or a phone message comes in from 96 00:08:03.110 --> 00:08:06.745 somewhere official and says, call us back, And like your 97 00:08:06.745 --> 00:08:11.785 stomach drops, like, and then it's just a lot of words and you 98 00:08:11.785 --> 00:08:16.505 think you understand them and it all feels kind of threatening. I 99 00:08:16.505 --> 00:08:19.225 mean, that whole thing's it's only happened to me a few times 100 00:08:19.225 --> 00:08:23.840 in my life, but each time I start cold sweating like, What 101 00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:29.600 did I do? So if I had been the one to open a letter dropped off 102 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.605 at Pool World in Spokane, Washington on 09/16/2022, I 103 00:08:34.605 --> 00:08:36.765 probably would have, like, passed out or something. I would 104 00:08:36.765 --> 00:08:39.085 have seen the lawyer's mark that was at the top of the letter. 105 00:08:39.085 --> 00:08:42.605 I would have read the all caps opening line of settlement 106 00:08:42.605 --> 00:08:45.965 communication and then frantically scanned through to 107 00:08:45.965 --> 00:08:49.400 see, oh, damn. It's five pages long. Oh, sharks. It's got a 108 00:08:49.400 --> 00:08:51.560 screen grab from our website. Oh, heck. 109 00:08:51.560 --> 00:08:55.640 There's a bolded, italicized, center aligned bit that says, 110 00:08:55.640 --> 00:09:00.200 quote, you shall pay $30,000 within twenty one days of the 111 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:04.165 date first written above and shall immediately cease and 112 00:09:04.165 --> 00:09:08.565 desist from any further use of our client's work, end quote. 113 00:09:08.565 --> 00:09:13.125 And then I would've like thrown up and then passed out. I 114 00:09:13.125 --> 00:09:16.110 would've been a wreck if I got that letter. But the folks at 115 00:09:16.110 --> 00:09:20.270 Pool World who actually did get that letter, they were not a 116 00:09:20.270 --> 00:09:20.910 wreck. 117 00:09:20.910 --> 00:09:24.830 They were pissed off. They didn't like being bullied. 118 00:09:25.230 --> 00:09:29.645 This is Paul Levy. Paul was Cool World's attorney 119 00:09:29.645 --> 00:09:33.405 when this letter that they received turned into a lawsuit. 120 00:09:33.645 --> 00:09:37.005 Paul is a public interest attorney with Public Citizens 121 00:09:37.005 --> 00:09:40.050 Litigation Group and for the past twenty five years, he has 122 00:09:40.050 --> 00:09:43.810 specialized in free speech issues arising on the Internet. 123 00:09:44.130 --> 00:09:46.530 For this work, the Washington Magazine did a profile where 124 00:09:46.530 --> 00:09:51.650 they gave him the moniker Paul Levy, the Webley's worst enemy. 125 00:09:52.625 --> 00:09:55.985 You know, it's a bit of a puff piece, but, I'm okay 126 00:09:55.985 --> 00:09:56.545 with that. 127 00:09:56.545 --> 00:09:58.785 I mean, what a great moniker to be the the 128 00:09:58.785 --> 00:10:02.145 Yeah. Webbully's worst enemy. Like Right. And I mean, think 129 00:10:02.145 --> 00:10:06.065 this story kinda proves it. So I feel like that was good 130 00:10:06.065 --> 00:10:06.385 reporting. 131 00:10:09.180 --> 00:10:13.740 This is a story about bullies and their worst enemy. Trolls 132 00:10:13.740 --> 00:10:17.900 and their demand for tolls and the validation that when we 133 00:10:17.900 --> 00:10:23.535 stand up, we can refuse to pay them. Trolls rely on 134 00:10:23.535 --> 00:10:27.695 intimidation to squash any inclination, to say hang on, 135 00:10:27.775 --> 00:10:31.535 wait a minute. This is just as risky for them as it is for me 136 00:10:31.535 --> 00:10:36.710 and I'm not as helpless as they'd like me to think I am. It 137 00:10:36.710 --> 00:10:39.830 doesn't always look like an easy path to stand your ground and 138 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:42.070 refuse to pay the toll. 139 00:10:42.070 --> 00:10:47.510 But if you do it well, then the story gets around that there are 140 00:10:47.510 --> 00:10:53.815 ways to get that bridge without worrying about the trolls. This 141 00:10:53.815 --> 00:10:59.015 is the story of Pool World versus Prepared Food Photos. 142 00:11:07.070 --> 00:11:13.470 Pool World sells pools. And pool adjacent stuff like saunas, hot 143 00:11:13.470 --> 00:11:16.830 tubs, grilling equipment, all the stuff you need to get your 144 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:20.175 summer game on in Spokane and Coeur D'Alene where they have 145 00:11:20.175 --> 00:11:25.215 four stores in the Pacific Northwest. But in 2022, when 146 00:11:25.215 --> 00:11:28.975 Pool World got the letter in question, they were in this 147 00:11:28.975 --> 00:11:30.895 weird moment of transition. 148 00:11:31.900 --> 00:11:35.980 The founder of Pool World died in a freak bicycling 149 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:41.580 accident shortly before this case was filed, and they were 150 00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:45.820 trying to be true to his memory. This is what our founder would 151 00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:51.235 have wanted to do. It was a principled stand. And beyond 152 00:11:51.235 --> 00:11:58.035 that, I think you could probably say that they didn't want their 153 00:11:58.035 --> 00:12:01.315 reputation in the community to be that they're an easy mark. 154 00:12:02.810 --> 00:12:03.610 Don't push us. 155 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:07.850 You know, you can't just push us around and make a baseless claim 156 00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:09.130 and get us to pay. 157 00:12:09.290 --> 00:12:12.490 The claims in the letter were about photos on the 158 00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:17.165 Pool World website, specifically one photo called the vegetable 159 00:12:17.165 --> 00:12:20.765 photo that they put up on their website in 2010 to promote their 160 00:12:20.765 --> 00:12:24.445 grill sales. The photo is a close-up. It's got skewers of 161 00:12:24.445 --> 00:12:28.045 peppers, onions, zucchini, vegetables, all charring up 162 00:12:28.045 --> 00:12:32.100 nicely in a grill. The photo was taken in 2001 and appeared on 163 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:36.260 their site under the banner pool world is grill world. 164 00:12:36.740 --> 00:12:39.940 The letter said, to the best of our knowledge, you 165 00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:46.235 have no license to use this photo. Our client licenses 166 00:12:46.875 --> 00:12:52.555 access to its entire database of photos for $9.99 a month. 167 00:12:52.875 --> 00:12:57.195 That's $999 a month, by the way, for the right 168 00:12:57.195 --> 00:12:58.395 to use all of their photos. 169 00:12:58.920 --> 00:13:03.320 And we've managed to persuade a series of courts that 170 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:09.720 the actual damages for copyright infringement is $9.99 a month 171 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:14.425 for the entire period of the alleged infringement, which 172 00:13:14.425 --> 00:13:25.065 $9.99 times 12 is 11,988 times twelve years. So that's roughly 173 00:13:25.065 --> 00:13:29.060 a $144,000 in damages. 174 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:30.980 Over one photo? 175 00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:34.500 I mean, the idea of these letters is to ramp up the 176 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:38.820 intimidating effect. Right? So they said, you know, hey. We're 177 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:43.995 gonna let you off easy. If you pay $30,000 within twenty one 178 00:13:43.995 --> 00:13:46.555 days, you're you're scot free, baby. 179 00:13:46.555 --> 00:13:49.195 Take it. Take this offer and run. 180 00:13:49.835 --> 00:13:53.275 This is where these letters and the threats that 181 00:13:53.275 --> 00:13:59.810 they contain work. Beyond the overwhelm of the legalese and 182 00:13:59.810 --> 00:14:03.090 the escalation of the timeline and the threat of a big number, 183 00:14:03.170 --> 00:14:07.010 but we'll settle for a smaller big number. Beyond all of that, 184 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:09.410 the core idea is legitimate. 185 00:14:09.725 --> 00:14:11.885 They used an image and they couldn't prove they had 186 00:14:11.885 --> 00:14:12.605 a license. 187 00:14:12.845 --> 00:14:15.085 Pool World could not locate a license for the 188 00:14:15.085 --> 00:14:16.045 photo in the letter. 189 00:14:16.045 --> 00:14:23.160 They assume that they used an image that a grill 190 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:27.080 selling company or a distributor for a grill selling company 191 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.960 provided them. But the person who got the image is no longer 192 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.400 an employee, and she couldn't remember. 193 00:14:36.315 --> 00:14:39.595 A single photo from twelve years ago that you can't 194 00:14:39.595 --> 00:14:43.515 quite track where it came from is just enough truth in the 195 00:14:43.515 --> 00:14:45.595 claim to make you pay attention. 196 00:14:45.675 --> 00:14:48.395 The photographers are up in arms, they're trying to 197 00:14:48.395 --> 00:14:52.940 get a grip on the threat to their business model. And I I 198 00:14:52.940 --> 00:14:55.660 actually, as a public interest lawyer, I have sympathy with 199 00:14:55.660 --> 00:14:59.020 that. When people use photos, they ought to pay for them. 200 00:14:59.180 --> 00:15:02.860 People ought to pay for photos they use. Underline, 201 00:15:03.020 --> 00:15:07.045 cosign, praying hands emoji, quickly double checking to see 202 00:15:07.045 --> 00:15:09.845 we don't have any unlicensed photos on the Neverpost website. 203 00:15:10.805 --> 00:15:18.165 Great. People ought to pay for the photos they use. I think 204 00:15:18.165 --> 00:15:20.165 it's time we meet these photographers. 205 00:15:20.165 --> 00:15:22.560 Or actually, not the photographers. We're never gonna 206 00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:25.440 meet the photographers. Let's meet the owners of the 207 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.040 photograph who hired this law firm to send this letter about 208 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:33.040 this photo. It's a company called Prepared Food Photos, 209 00:15:33.335 --> 00:15:34.775 which is hard to say. 210 00:15:34.775 --> 00:15:40.535 I'm gonna call them PFP as a shorthand. 211 00:15:40.855 --> 00:15:44.775 PFP owns a library of photos. So clients can pay a 212 00:15:44.775 --> 00:15:48.295 fee to get a license to use those photos in a commercial 213 00:15:48.295 --> 00:15:52.170 setting. You used to be able to buy a license for a single 214 00:15:52.170 --> 00:15:56.890 photo, but in 2016, they converted to only being able to 215 00:15:56.890 --> 00:16:01.450 license their full library, which, again, in their letter, 216 00:16:01.530 --> 00:16:07.525 they cite at a minimum minimum of $999 per month. 217 00:16:10.645 --> 00:16:13.925 I don't think there's any question that they actually 218 00:16:13.925 --> 00:16:18.670 engaged in the licensing business, And they found some 219 00:16:18.670 --> 00:16:25.870 companies that were willing for one reason or another to pay a 220 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:30.350 subscription fee, not necessarily $9.99 a month, but 221 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:35.815 in various amounts. It struck me as possible that there were 222 00:16:35.815 --> 00:16:40.695 companies that found that kind of access valuable. I mean, 223 00:16:40.695 --> 00:16:46.380 Kroger, for example, the big supermarket chains, and then, of 224 00:16:46.380 --> 00:16:50.140 course, you might have advertising companies. You could 225 00:16:50.140 --> 00:16:56.380 see getting value from access to a large number of photos and 226 00:16:56.380 --> 00:17:00.405 paying a substantial monthly amount for it. So I actually 227 00:17:00.405 --> 00:17:03.925 went into this assuming that they were telling the truth 228 00:17:04.165 --> 00:17:07.685 about their subscription fees. 229 00:17:08.005 --> 00:17:11.605 The law is useful and good, but only when applied 230 00:17:11.605 --> 00:17:12.565 reasonably. 231 00:17:12.885 --> 00:17:17.290 But for a company which had used only a single 232 00:17:17.290 --> 00:17:24.890 photo, it was absurd to think that the damages ought to be 233 00:17:25.130 --> 00:17:34.375 $11,988 per year of infringing use because stock photos are 234 00:17:34.375 --> 00:17:38.135 cheap. Even good stock photos are cheap. 235 00:17:39.575 --> 00:17:47.460 $144,000 is not reasonable. This case with Pool 236 00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:51.060 World allowed him to keep pushing at what he suspected was 237 00:17:51.060 --> 00:17:52.260 a copyright troll. 238 00:17:52.340 --> 00:17:55.380 I wanted to know all along how much money they were 239 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:59.220 making from infringement claims Yeah. Because my guess was that 240 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.375 it was more than from licensing. 241 00:18:03.095 --> 00:18:06.295 If that's the case, then the claims about the risk 242 00:18:06.295 --> 00:18:10.295 to their business are not founded. So Paul gets to work. 243 00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:17.940 So once you get involved and you have this conversation with Pool 244 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:21.300 World, what's this first step for you? Where do you want this 245 00:18:21.300 --> 00:18:22.420 to go? How are you how do you 246 00:18:22.420 --> 00:18:24.835 start it? An answer. There might be a statute of 247 00:18:24.835 --> 00:18:28.915 limitations objection because the infringement took place in 248 00:18:28.915 --> 00:18:34.995 2010, and the suit was filed in 2023. They claim they didn't 249 00:18:34.995 --> 00:18:37.715 find the infringement until 2022. 250 00:18:38.275 --> 00:18:40.990 Okay. Here's where we get into a bit of the 251 00:18:40.990 --> 00:18:45.390 necessary legalese of the case. PFP is trying to invoke 252 00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:48.590 something that's called the discovery rule, which is where 253 00:18:48.590 --> 00:18:52.110 you start the statute of limitations clock not from when 254 00:18:52.110 --> 00:18:55.845 the thing happened, but from when it was discovered, which 255 00:18:55.845 --> 00:19:00.325 for them was 2022. This would nullify Paul's claims of statute 256 00:19:00.325 --> 00:19:03.605 of limitations because they just found out about it. But boy, oh 257 00:19:03.605 --> 00:19:07.400 boy, this is where Paul gets his first big move. 258 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.600 PFP making this request to ignore the statute of 259 00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:15.880 limitations, it gives Paul some leverage using a very specific 260 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:16.600 legal rule. 261 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:21.395 And our argument is because they're making these 262 00:19:21.395 --> 00:19:26.595 demands in such an unfair way that discovery rule is an 263 00:19:26.595 --> 00:19:29.395 equitable exception to the statute of limitations. 264 00:19:29.875 --> 00:19:32.515 Okay. Equitable exception in this case says 265 00:19:32.515 --> 00:19:36.950 that, sure. If PFP wants a change in the statute of 266 00:19:36.950 --> 00:19:40.950 limitations, they have to show that they are behaving in good 267 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:44.870 faith, that what they are saying about the timing of events and 268 00:19:44.870 --> 00:19:47.605 the claims about their business, that all of that is true. 269 00:19:47.605 --> 00:19:51.045 There's a general rule that when you seek if you 270 00:19:51.045 --> 00:19:53.205 seek equity, you must do equity. 271 00:19:53.205 --> 00:19:54.485 Yeah. What does that mean? 272 00:19:54.485 --> 00:19:58.725 If you seek fairness, you must have behaved fairly. 273 00:20:01.170 --> 00:20:04.290 The way to see if PFP has behaved fairly is to 274 00:20:04.290 --> 00:20:07.090 look at their documentation, which is done through a legal 275 00:20:07.090 --> 00:20:11.010 process called discovery, which is kicked off by this need to 276 00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:15.555 demonstrate equity, which is from the request to let go of 277 00:20:15.555 --> 00:20:16.915 the statute of limitations. 278 00:20:17.715 --> 00:20:20.435 And nobody's ever made this argument before. 279 00:20:21.235 --> 00:20:26.195 Nobody? Nobody. So we're sort of looking at new law. 280 00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:31.460 This old rule of asking for equity when there's a 281 00:20:31.460 --> 00:20:34.820 request to change the statute of limitations, this is gonna give 282 00:20:34.820 --> 00:20:39.220 Paul what he wants, which is a clear view into PFP's finances. 283 00:20:39.540 --> 00:20:44.055 And he's doing it with a new tactic against copyright trolls. 284 00:20:44.055 --> 00:20:47.655 He's forcing them to prove they have a case rather than just 285 00:20:47.655 --> 00:20:52.695 accepting their word and their demands for payment. I mean, to 286 00:20:52.695 --> 00:20:55.900 me, this feels a lot like calling a bluff in poker, 287 00:20:55.900 --> 00:20:59.100 sitting across the table and saying, okay. You want the pot? 288 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:02.940 Show me your cards. And then everyone narrows their eyes. 289 00:21:06.555 --> 00:21:09.435 They disclose their damages theory, is this, 290 00:21:09.915 --> 00:21:14.555 $144,000 for twelve years of infringement, and we start 291 00:21:14.555 --> 00:21:21.450 discovery. So I got to see 22 licensing agreements, which 292 00:21:21.450 --> 00:21:29.450 ranged in monthly cost from $99 a month up into the more than a 293 00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:33.465 thousand a month for some big companies. And the amount they 294 00:21:33.465 --> 00:21:38.505 claimed they were getting from licensing payments didn't match 295 00:21:38.505 --> 00:21:42.345 up with the licensing agreements they sent us. 296 00:21:43.545 --> 00:21:45.945 So Paul and his team, they request more 297 00:21:45.945 --> 00:21:49.120 documents, and it gets really intense. Banking records are 298 00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:52.560 submitted with redactions, so more requests are made. But Paul 299 00:21:52.560 --> 00:21:56.080 and his team persevere, and they start to build a picture of 300 00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:57.360 PFP's business. 301 00:21:57.840 --> 00:22:03.695 They were making a range of amounts, $50,000 a 302 00:22:03.695 --> 00:22:10.670 year, $70,000 a year in licensing fees, and as much as 303 00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:15.630 $2,000,000 a year in infringement damages. And most 304 00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:22.270 of the time of their employees was spent not finding people to 305 00:22:22.270 --> 00:22:26.955 buy their licenses, but finding people to threaten. 306 00:22:29.355 --> 00:22:31.755 This is clear evidence that PFP makes their 307 00:22:31.755 --> 00:22:34.715 money from lawsuits, not licensing, and that they didn't 308 00:22:34.715 --> 00:22:40.560 just charge $999 per month. Their fee actually varied 309 00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:45.680 widely. So they were not excited about you to see this stuff, 310 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:46.240 obviously. 311 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.680 They were not excited. 312 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.760 Yeah. What did it tell you though when you start 313 00:22:51.075 --> 00:22:52.595 seeing those huge numbers? 314 00:22:52.595 --> 00:22:56.515 It what it told me was, first, that the claim of 315 00:22:56.515 --> 00:23:02.755 their minimum license fee was a lie. I have no compunction about 316 00:23:02.755 --> 00:23:11.930 saying it was a lie. The lawyer actually told us that until we 317 00:23:11.930 --> 00:23:16.970 started doing discovery in this case, they had no idea that 318 00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:20.375 their client was lying to them. Woah. 319 00:23:24.535 --> 00:23:28.535 Suddenly, everything looks different. Paul 320 00:23:28.535 --> 00:23:32.215 and his team argue to the court that since most of the work done 321 00:23:32.215 --> 00:23:36.680 by PFP is searching for and making infringement claims, and 322 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:42.040 since 95% of PFP's income comes from threatening and bringing 323 00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:47.160 copyright infringement claims, and because PFP isn't making any 324 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.035 new photos, and that they've been lying in their demand 325 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:54.315 letters and court filings because of all of that, Paul 326 00:23:54.315 --> 00:23:59.195 argues, the case should just be dismissed. And if that's not 327 00:23:59.195 --> 00:23:59.515 enough 328 00:23:59.995 --> 00:24:04.120 We didn't even need the lie. We had an expert 329 00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:09.080 witness who helps people create their websites, and she's been 330 00:24:09.080 --> 00:24:12.760 in the business of getting helping people get images to use 331 00:24:12.760 --> 00:24:16.295 on their websites. And she knows what the market is, and she put 332 00:24:16.295 --> 00:24:18.135 in an affidavit about the market. 333 00:24:18.535 --> 00:24:22.135 Was $999 a month really a reasonable market rate 334 00:24:22.135 --> 00:24:23.575 even in 2010? 335 00:24:23.655 --> 00:24:27.655 In 2010, the license fee would have been a dollar. 336 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:29.920 Which after everyone else was cut, the 337 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.080 payment processor, the photographer, Getty Images, 338 00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:36.640 etcetera, etcetera, would have left very little for PFP. 339 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:42.595 And its share was 12¢ or something like that. And so 340 00:24:42.595 --> 00:24:47.635 do they wanna go to trial on a damages claim of 12¢, or did 341 00:24:47.635 --> 00:24:49.875 they do the sensible thing and drop it? 342 00:24:51.875 --> 00:24:55.235 According to Paul and unchallenged by PFP, their 343 00:24:55.235 --> 00:24:58.810 claims were not market rate. Their demands are unreasonable. 344 00:24:58.810 --> 00:25:03.530 Their statements are lies. Because they were forced to show 345 00:25:03.530 --> 00:25:06.490 their cards, PFP is looking boxed in. 346 00:25:06.490 --> 00:25:10.345 So our argument to the judge was they don't get the 347 00:25:10.345 --> 00:25:14.025 discovery rule, and therefore, you should rule in our favor. 348 00:25:17.705 --> 00:25:20.425 Pool World and Paul are fighting back, and they're 349 00:25:20.425 --> 00:25:25.810 winning. They have a solid case, and PFP knows that. But they 350 00:25:25.810 --> 00:25:29.170 can't just drop the suit and walk away because of a rule that 351 00:25:29.170 --> 00:25:32.290 kicked in when Paul and his team filed their initial answer to 352 00:25:32.290 --> 00:25:35.730 the lawsuit way back when at the beginning. And this rule says 353 00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:40.705 that PFP now needs the court's permission to dismiss their 354 00:25:40.705 --> 00:25:46.945 suit, which means there's really two big options. Instead of 355 00:25:46.945 --> 00:25:51.665 getting money, PFP can settle by paying Pool World their attorney 356 00:25:51.665 --> 00:25:52.065 fees. 357 00:25:52.520 --> 00:25:55.320 You know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees. 358 00:25:55.800 --> 00:25:59.480 Or worse, if the case goes to trial and the 359 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:04.200 ruling is that PFP's threats of 6 figure sums is just simply not 360 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.075 the way that you calculate damages in a copyright 361 00:26:07.075 --> 00:26:08.275 infringement case. 362 00:26:09.955 --> 00:26:14.995 If we got a legal ruling to that effect, that 363 00:26:14.995 --> 00:26:21.450 legal ruling would potentially be binding on PFP in every other 364 00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:23.770 case in which they bring this theory. 365 00:26:23.770 --> 00:26:25.130 Which is their whole business model. 366 00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:32.250 And and my guess is that the risk of losing that is 367 00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:37.995 what drove them to the table to agree on a payment to be made 368 00:26:38.235 --> 00:26:39.915 toward our attorney fees. 369 00:26:40.795 --> 00:26:44.155 Seemingly forced by the risk of losing their entire 370 00:26:44.235 --> 00:26:48.780 way of operating, PFP chooses the financial hit and pays an 371 00:26:48.780 --> 00:26:53.100 undisclosed amount to Pool World to get their own suit dismissed. 372 00:26:53.740 --> 00:27:01.900 The troll was forced to pay their own toll. That is a 373 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:06.485 satisfying story. Most stories these days feel like they're 374 00:27:06.485 --> 00:27:10.805 written in a fever dream, and the clarity of this just feels 375 00:27:11.125 --> 00:27:15.845 to me like taking this long cool drink in the stream before you 376 00:27:15.845 --> 00:27:20.420 move on down the bridge and off to the other side. But is this 377 00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:21.780 happily ever after? 378 00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:26.420 Well, it's certainly a path forward. Paul and his team, they 379 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:30.580 have now used the law in a new way to counter trolls. The 380 00:27:30.580 --> 00:27:33.765 strategy that he used is public because of the documentation, 381 00:27:33.765 --> 00:27:38.725 and it's ready for use by any of what Paul calls on his blog, 382 00:27:38.725 --> 00:27:42.165 quote, a small coterie of lawyers who are fed up with the 383 00:27:42.165 --> 00:27:42.885 bullying. 384 00:27:42.965 --> 00:27:47.190 I'd like to think that this will give more 385 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:53.270 companies the balls that Pool World had. I mean, it was easy 386 00:27:53.270 --> 00:27:56.870 for Pool World. They had a free lawyer, and they had a free 387 00:27:56.870 --> 00:28:03.465 lawyer who sort of knew what he was doing. But these cases can 388 00:28:03.465 --> 00:28:12.665 be defended and they can be won and it takes takes courage and 389 00:28:12.665 --> 00:28:16.510 it takes a willingness to run a little bit of risk. 390 00:28:19.710 --> 00:28:22.430 Since this recent settlement, PFP have not made 391 00:28:22.430 --> 00:28:27.645 any new infringement claims, which is awesome. But there have 392 00:28:27.645 --> 00:28:32.045 been dozens of infringement claims over PFP's photo library, 393 00:28:32.205 --> 00:28:36.205 but from a new company, which is called Rockefeller Photos. And 394 00:28:36.205 --> 00:28:44.500 it's owned by the same people as PFP. Not awesome. But Paul Levy, 395 00:28:44.580 --> 00:28:48.020 the webbully's worst enemy, is still on the job. 396 00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:52.100 You know, their lawyer really ingeniously 397 00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:58.315 created a line of cases which he was able to deploy to get 398 00:28:58.315 --> 00:29:02.795 significantly more than the law really ought to allow him. And 399 00:29:03.995 --> 00:29:08.155 all I'm trying to do is get us back to where the law really is. 400 00:29:08.955 --> 00:29:14.420 Get companies like prepared foods that have a large library 401 00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:18.980 of photos, and let's assume they're useful photos to a 402 00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:23.540 variety of people. Give them the incentive that congress gave 403 00:29:23.540 --> 00:29:24.340 them, but no more. 404 00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:42.620 Thank you again to Paul Levy for taking the time to 405 00:29:42.620 --> 00:29:46.140 talk to me. We are gonna put a link to Paul's blog where he's 406 00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:49.420 written a lot about this case, and you can get way into the 407 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:53.100 legal details of it if you want to. It's really good reading, 408 00:29:53.260 --> 00:29:57.925 and, again, very satisfying. If you are someone in the legal 409 00:29:57.925 --> 00:30:03.045 profession and this feels like an interesting strategy, or a 410 00:30:03.045 --> 00:30:06.565 useful set of things you could think about in an upcoming case, 411 00:30:06.565 --> 00:30:10.005 let us know because we'd love to hear about this being used in 412 00:30:10.005 --> 00:30:14.430 other places. Just look on in the show notes, figure out how 413 00:30:14.430 --> 00:30:14.990 to get in touch. 414 00:31:57.595 --> 00:32:02.475 Friends, hello, and welcome to what is going on 415 00:32:02.475 --> 00:32:06.470 here. A segment wherein members of the Neverpost staff bring 416 00:32:06.470 --> 00:32:10.310 posts to the group about which they would like to ask, what is 417 00:32:10.630 --> 00:32:14.470 going on here? Could we all have done some googling? Could we 418 00:32:14.470 --> 00:32:16.710 have gone further down thread? Could we have cracked a book or 419 00:32:16.710 --> 00:32:17.990 two or gone to YouTube? 420 00:32:17.990 --> 00:32:22.755 Probably. But what is the fun in that? In the following segment, 421 00:32:22.755 --> 00:32:25.395 we share things we found online that made us want to know more 422 00:32:25.395 --> 00:32:28.595 and about which we thought the process of finding out more 423 00:32:28.755 --> 00:32:33.510 would be fun to do together. Joining us for this round in 424 00:32:33.510 --> 00:32:37.110 order of how much Halloween candy I assume they have eaten. 425 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:38.150 Oh my god. 426 00:32:39.270 --> 00:32:43.110 I'm immediately double thinking thinking over 427 00:32:43.110 --> 00:32:43.270 what 428 00:32:43.270 --> 00:32:45.195 I'm Hans left the phrase for a second. 429 00:32:45.195 --> 00:32:47.515 Because yeah. Because Hans' soul has left his 430 00:32:47.515 --> 00:32:52.235 body out of shame. It's immediately obvious that I have 431 00:32:52.235 --> 00:32:53.195 him first 432 00:32:53.995 --> 00:32:56.075 as the least amount of candy, as the 433 00:32:56.075 --> 00:32:56.635 healthiest, 434 00:32:57.500 --> 00:32:58.940 most restrained one. 435 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:01.260 Never post senior producer Hans Buchtel, who I 436 00:33:01.260 --> 00:33:04.060 just assumed as a man in his forties, was also watching his 437 00:33:04.060 --> 00:33:05.500 sugar, but maybe I'm wrong. 438 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.860 No. Oh my god. It's like the magic where nothing 439 00:33:08.860 --> 00:33:09.660 counts. Right? 440 00:33:11.065 --> 00:33:14.105 Us calories don't count on Halloween. Oh my 441 00:33:14.105 --> 00:33:14.665 gosh. 442 00:33:14.665 --> 00:33:17.225 We bought two bags of Costco candy, and very few 443 00:33:17.225 --> 00:33:19.065 children showed up. What? 444 00:33:19.065 --> 00:33:20.825 You're like, oh, no. 445 00:33:21.625 --> 00:33:22.745 What are we gonna do? 446 00:33:23.370 --> 00:33:25.370 Won't someone do something? 447 00:33:25.530 --> 00:33:27.050 Hans, I'm so happy for you. 448 00:33:27.050 --> 00:33:28.970 I've actually been really I'm happy and shamed. 449 00:33:28.970 --> 00:33:31.610 I'm mad I'm sad for me who got this wrong. But 450 00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:34.330 Yeah. Wait. Now I'm fascinated to see where 451 00:33:34.330 --> 00:33:35.050 everyone else is. 452 00:33:35.050 --> 00:33:36.810 Okay. Never post producer Georgia Hampton. 453 00:33:37.525 --> 00:33:40.485 Okay. I don't have much of a sweet tooth. 454 00:33:40.805 --> 00:33:43.205 Alright. That is actually shocking 455 00:33:43.285 --> 00:33:46.885 news. Really? I will eat like a million olives 456 00:33:47.445 --> 00:33:51.045 and I'll eat maybe one fun size like Twix and be like, 457 00:33:51.620 --> 00:33:54.740 that's all for me. Thank you very much. Like, I 458 00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:57.940 couldn't possibly yeah. Okay. 459 00:33:57.940 --> 00:34:00.500 So so third on the list here, friend of the 460 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:05.275 show and of the people on it, Meaghel Jardin, I feel like, you 461 00:34:05.275 --> 00:34:09.115 know, accepting Hans, maybe I maybe I've gotten this right, 462 00:34:09.115 --> 00:34:11.195 that you have a sweet tooth. 463 00:34:11.355 --> 00:34:15.035 No. No. Yes. Yes, Meagle. 464 00:34:15.035 --> 00:34:15.595 You and I. 465 00:34:15.675 --> 00:34:18.780 Like Georgia. I just thought that Georgia had a 466 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:22.140 sweet tooth because I think Georgia's second birthday was 467 00:34:22.140 --> 00:34:22.700 Halloween. 468 00:34:22.700 --> 00:34:23.820 That's true. You did think 469 00:34:24.060 --> 00:34:25.740 I did have to correct you when you thought 470 00:34:25.740 --> 00:34:27.500 that my birthday was Halloween. 471 00:34:28.540 --> 00:34:30.380 You just embody Halloween. 472 00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:31.100 Well, thank you. 473 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:34.005 The Halloween spirit, which must be including 474 00:34:34.005 --> 00:34:39.285 sugar. I also do not have a sweet tooth. I think I had a 475 00:34:39.285 --> 00:34:44.165 mini Twix and, like, some gummies or something. But that 476 00:34:44.165 --> 00:34:44.725 was it. 477 00:34:44.725 --> 00:34:47.280 Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Okay, Mike. Where are you 478 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:47.600 at? 479 00:34:47.600 --> 00:34:49.200 Yeah. Mike Rugnetta. 480 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.920 I ate almost no candy. The only candy that I ate 481 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:57.600 was I ate half of a single Sour Patch Kid to make sure that it 482 00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:02.405 wasn't too sour for Clem when she was on her first ever Sour 483 00:35:02.405 --> 00:35:03.045 Patch Kid. 484 00:35:03.045 --> 00:35:06.485 It's half of one piece of a gummy. That's 485 00:35:06.485 --> 00:35:07.445 pretty wild. 486 00:35:07.445 --> 00:35:10.725 That's almost insulting. Like, that's 487 00:35:10.725 --> 00:35:16.010 deliberate. I really like candy that much. Apparently. 488 00:35:16.250 --> 00:35:18.570 Yeah. Since you did this, it this was a personal 489 00:35:18.570 --> 00:35:20.250 attack. Yeah. This was I'm 490 00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:22.330 I'm feeling threatened. Right. 491 00:35:22.330 --> 00:35:23.370 So, yeah, all three 492 00:35:23.370 --> 00:35:25.370 of us are at the very, very bottom. 493 00:35:25.850 --> 00:35:26.810 I have eaten your 494 00:35:26.810 --> 00:35:28.955 shares is what I've been. Frost dean of 495 00:35:28.955 --> 00:35:29.755 Candyland. 496 00:35:29.755 --> 00:35:32.795 This is not a WIGO. This is an intervention. 497 00:35:33.115 --> 00:35:36.635 Hans Hans, see the back of the room that you're 498 00:35:36.635 --> 00:35:40.555 standing in. A gigantic pile of cans. It's just wrappers. It's 499 00:35:40.555 --> 00:35:41.195 it's no candy. 500 00:35:41.195 --> 00:35:42.700 What is going on? 501 00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:44.540 I Scrooge McDuck my way through empty 502 00:35:44.540 --> 00:35:47.500 wrappers every day. Every day. Alright. 503 00:35:49.100 --> 00:35:51.820 Let's find out what's going on here. 504 00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:53.820 Welcome to today's game. 505 00:35:55.585 --> 00:35:57.825 First up, we got friend of the show. Meagle 506 00:35:57.825 --> 00:36:02.305 Jardin is here because you found something specifically and you 507 00:36:02.305 --> 00:36:05.985 were like, I this can I be on a WIGO? Because I wanna know 508 00:36:05.985 --> 00:36:06.945 what's going on here. 509 00:36:07.105 --> 00:36:07.745 Yes. 510 00:36:07.825 --> 00:36:09.505 So we're all very excited to see what it is. 511 00:36:09.505 --> 00:36:12.520 Alright. Okay. For this video, I'm gonna 512 00:36:12.520 --> 00:36:17.560 nominate Mike to describe what is going on here. 513 00:36:17.560 --> 00:36:20.200 It's a TikTok. Okay. These are kinda long. 514 00:36:20.200 --> 00:36:21.000 Alright. Two minutes. 515 00:36:22.575 --> 00:36:26.495 Okay. So I'm looking at the embedded video here, and it's a 516 00:36:26.495 --> 00:36:31.135 16 by nine video in a nine by 16 frame. So it's got big black 517 00:36:31.775 --> 00:36:34.895 things on the top and the bottom, and it's a vlog. So it's 518 00:36:34.895 --> 00:36:38.015 like a woman looking into her webcam or something. And it 519 00:36:38.015 --> 00:36:41.830 says, calling the girl I found in this phone and finding out 520 00:36:41.830 --> 00:36:43.510 I'm the other woman. 521 00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:46.150 Woah. And so now I'm gonna press play. 522 00:36:51.350 --> 00:37:00.085 Hello? Hello? Is this Brie? Yes. Who who's 523 00:37:00.085 --> 00:37:00.645 this? 524 00:37:00.805 --> 00:37:07.365 So my name my name is Sofia. I don't think you know about me, 525 00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:15.820 and I I just wanna say I'm sorry. But do you know a guy 526 00:37:15.820 --> 00:37:23.465 named Alex? Is he okay? I mean, yeah. 527 00:37:23.785 --> 00:37:31.145 Like, how do know him? He's your what? That's my fiance. Who is 528 00:37:31.145 --> 00:37:35.560 this? I've been seeing him for six months. 529 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:40.440 I'm sorry. What? 530 00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:45.240 This is Jess. The woman the woman on the other 531 00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:52.055 end goes, I'm sorry. What? It just You can you must 532 00:37:52.055 --> 00:37:53.335 be texting. 533 00:37:53.575 --> 00:37:58.055 What I can only describe as the most text to 534 00:37:58.055 --> 00:38:01.140 speech voice I could imagine. Okay. 535 00:38:01.140 --> 00:38:01.460 You're a 536 00:38:01.460 --> 00:38:07.540 little bit confused. I'm sorry. I found him 537 00:38:07.540 --> 00:38:12.420 on Tinder, so I decided to go through his phone and I saw your 538 00:38:11.895 --> 00:38:15.255 contact in there. I I honestly, I had no idea. 539 00:38:15.255 --> 00:38:18.135 The mismatch in emotion between the two sides is 540 00:38:18.135 --> 00:38:22.135 hilarious. Very funny. It makes it comedy that the woman on 541 00:38:22.135 --> 00:38:25.735 camera is so upset, and the woman the, like, recorded voice 542 00:38:25.735 --> 00:38:28.670 is so monotone. Wait. Okay. 543 00:38:28.670 --> 00:38:31.070 Hold on. I'm there's still, like, another minute of this. 544 00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:34.750 Mabel, what happens? Like, should I watch the rest of it? 545 00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:34.910 Or like 546 00:38:34.990 --> 00:38:37.070 I don't think you need to watch the rest of it 547 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:42.445 because it's more of this, you know, catching my cheating 548 00:38:42.445 --> 00:38:43.965 boyfriend or whatever. 549 00:38:44.125 --> 00:38:46.365 Mike, can I hit you with a couple of statistics? 550 00:38:46.685 --> 00:38:49.805 Yeah. Likes, 5,200,000. 551 00:38:49.885 --> 00:38:51.805 Mhmm. What? Mhmm. 552 00:38:51.805 --> 00:38:57.700 Comments, 10,600. Bookmarks, 262.6 point 7,000. 553 00:38:57.700 --> 00:39:00.980 Shares, a 158,300. 554 00:39:01.220 --> 00:39:04.180 I think it has almost 40,000,000 views. 555 00:39:04.580 --> 00:39:06.020 Woah. Why? 556 00:39:07.075 --> 00:39:09.875 So the reason why I sent this is that I've 557 00:39:09.875 --> 00:39:13.635 been getting served multiple of these videos on TikTok to the 558 00:39:13.635 --> 00:39:19.475 point where I was like, wait a second. And now, if you go to 559 00:39:19.475 --> 00:39:22.540 the TikTok and click on the person's page who made this 560 00:39:22.540 --> 00:39:27.980 video Okay. You will see the entire account is content 561 00:39:28.060 --> 00:39:29.580 catching my cheating boyfriend. 562 00:39:29.580 --> 00:39:33.100 It is. My husband's reaction to me 563 00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:36.620 confronting him for bringing guys from Grindr to our house. 564 00:39:36.620 --> 00:39:36.780 Yeah. 565 00:39:36.935 --> 00:39:39.655 My boyfriend's reaction to his cheater themed 566 00:39:39.655 --> 00:39:41.015 birthday party. My 567 00:39:41.815 --> 00:39:44.055 boyfriend's reaction to me framing his 568 00:39:44.055 --> 00:39:48.135 Tinder profile. Normalize public shaming cheaters. 569 00:39:48.295 --> 00:39:50.295 And what I thought was like so fascinating 570 00:39:50.295 --> 00:39:53.350 about this, like to me, I picked up pretty quickly that this was 571 00:39:53.350 --> 00:39:57.350 fake. Mhmm. Because along with a lot of other similar accounts 572 00:39:57.350 --> 00:40:01.350 that I've come across, the boyfriend or like the person who 573 00:40:01.350 --> 00:40:04.870 cheated, their voice and their body language, it just felt very 574 00:40:05.285 --> 00:40:07.685 fake and scripted. Was like, this you're not speaking 575 00:40:07.685 --> 00:40:09.205 naturally. Mhmm. 576 00:40:09.205 --> 00:40:11.845 And I was like, oh, maybe it's like skits or something, but 577 00:40:11.845 --> 00:40:15.445 then you go to the account and it's all content about cheating. 578 00:40:15.525 --> 00:40:18.485 But what really fascinated me is that if you go to the comment 579 00:40:18.485 --> 00:40:19.445 section of this video. 580 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:20.400 Okay. 581 00:40:20.560 --> 00:40:22.640 No one is saying this is fake. 582 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.720 Yeah. I was 583 00:40:24.720 --> 00:40:28.720 like, am I am I crazy? 584 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.800 Well, there's levels there's levels of fake 585 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.205 that I think it Yeah. It could be. Because it sounds like the 586 00:40:34.205 --> 00:40:36.205 world's worst improv session. 587 00:40:36.605 --> 00:40:37.965 It really does. Yeah. 588 00:40:38.605 --> 00:40:40.525 Or like a bat like an acting class. 589 00:40:40.525 --> 00:40:42.765 It sounds like acting class. Exactly. 590 00:40:42.925 --> 00:40:46.950 Yeah. You're what you're wondering is, is there AI 591 00:40:46.950 --> 00:40:50.550 fakery in here as well? And and I don't even that no one's 592 00:40:50.550 --> 00:40:51.750 saying either of them. 593 00:40:51.990 --> 00:40:55.910 I mean, I I don't I would assume, like, some 594 00:40:55.910 --> 00:40:58.790 of the other videos that I've seen, when the voice is like 595 00:40:58.790 --> 00:41:01.715 really off camera and you don't see another person, the 596 00:41:01.715 --> 00:41:06.195 secondary voice does feel AI generated, like, or very 597 00:41:06.195 --> 00:41:11.235 scripted. But I just think this whole like, it's become like a 598 00:41:11.235 --> 00:41:16.675 whole genre of content. And it's all fake in that way that I'm 599 00:41:16.675 --> 00:41:21.050 like, I don't I don't know if there's a cheating boyfriend 600 00:41:21.050 --> 00:41:22.410 even there. 601 00:41:22.810 --> 00:41:24.330 I'm gonna guess now. 602 00:41:24.410 --> 00:41:25.610 Yeah. Yeah. Right? 603 00:41:25.610 --> 00:41:27.530 The cheating boyfriend are the views that 604 00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:28.410 this is making. 605 00:41:29.130 --> 00:41:29.770 Yeah. 606 00:41:29.930 --> 00:41:34.645 Like, this to me, this is like a a very odd 607 00:41:35.845 --> 00:41:38.325 flavor of not really rage bait. 608 00:41:38.645 --> 00:41:39.445 I was gonna say this 609 00:41:39.445 --> 00:41:41.525 is a strange version of rage bait. 610 00:41:41.525 --> 00:41:41.845 That's what 611 00:41:41.845 --> 00:41:42.405 it is. 612 00:41:42.405 --> 00:41:44.965 Yeah. It's but it's this solidarity because 613 00:41:44.965 --> 00:41:49.300 like, overwhelmingly in the comments are other women being, 614 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:52.820 like, girl, like, I would kill him for you, blah blah blah. 615 00:41:52.820 --> 00:41:54.180 Yeah. Georgia. Yeah. Georgia. 616 00:41:54.740 --> 00:41:56.980 Savebait. Yes. Oh. Yes. 617 00:41:58.415 --> 00:42:00.655 All the comments say, you saved her. You saved 618 00:42:00.655 --> 00:42:03.135 that girl. Yes. Yeah. You're the hero. 619 00:42:03.215 --> 00:42:05.215 I feel yeah. It's sort of scratching that 620 00:42:05.215 --> 00:42:09.535 itch of like, you know, videos of firefighters saving a dog 621 00:42:09.535 --> 00:42:09.775 from 622 00:42:09.775 --> 00:42:11.055 like Oh, corps. Yeah. 623 00:42:11.455 --> 00:42:13.690 But like Yeah. In this vengeful, vengeful, like 624 00:42:13.930 --> 00:42:17.290 Yeah. Like, commiserative way because all the comments, I 625 00:42:17.290 --> 00:42:21.690 mean, it's like, you girls saved each other. This broke my heart, 626 00:42:21.850 --> 00:42:25.530 like Mhmm. Let's normalize telling the other girl, like, 627 00:42:25.715 --> 00:42:29.235 you guys are together now and and it's you versus him, that 628 00:42:29.235 --> 00:42:30.035 sort of thing. 629 00:42:30.355 --> 00:42:31.955 This, like, solidarity. 630 00:42:32.355 --> 00:42:34.515 Oh. Is that the thing that people are getting 631 00:42:34.515 --> 00:42:38.970 out of this? Like, a feeling of solidarity? Like, what is the if 632 00:42:38.970 --> 00:42:41.930 we think about, like, uses and gratifications of media. Right? 633 00:42:41.930 --> 00:42:44.570 Like Mhmm. Every piece of media that you encounter that you 634 00:42:44.570 --> 00:42:47.930 like, it's like, it fulfills some need or, like, it has a use 635 00:42:47.930 --> 00:42:50.650 to you. It's gratifying in some way. Like, what is it here? Is 636 00:42:50.650 --> 00:42:54.405 it manufacturing this feeling of, like, you know, are we back 637 00:42:54.405 --> 00:42:55.205 to girls girls? 638 00:42:55.205 --> 00:42:57.045 Like, are girls girls out there? 639 00:42:58.005 --> 00:43:03.125 I I think, yes. I think this is kind of I feel 640 00:43:03.125 --> 00:43:07.365 like it's a bottled version of something a lot of people are 641 00:43:07.365 --> 00:43:08.645 afraid is going to happen to them. 642 00:43:09.020 --> 00:43:09.500 Yeah. 643 00:43:09.500 --> 00:43:11.500 So it's sort of like like going to a haunted 644 00:43:11.500 --> 00:43:15.100 house of of the worst relationship experience you 645 00:43:15.100 --> 00:43:18.780 could have of, like, watching this play out and watching it 646 00:43:18.780 --> 00:43:21.580 play out in a way that feels sort of satisfying where it's 647 00:43:21.580 --> 00:43:26.185 now these two women who know this, they're processing this 648 00:43:26.185 --> 00:43:32.345 together, which is ostensibly painful. But, like, there's a 649 00:43:32.345 --> 00:43:35.865 very clear delineation of good guys, bad guys. Neither of these 650 00:43:35.865 --> 00:43:38.825 women knew who that this was happening with each other. No 651 00:43:38.825 --> 00:43:42.770 one was aware of this other than the man. So it's this sort of 652 00:43:42.770 --> 00:43:46.850 perfect little ecosystem where I think for a lot of people 653 00:43:46.850 --> 00:43:51.170 commenting, there's like this odd satisfaction in it. 654 00:43:51.810 --> 00:43:54.930 Not in seeing them suffer necessarily, but in like 655 00:43:56.035 --> 00:43:59.875 watching this hard thing? Yes. Yes. And, like, the bad thing 656 00:43:59.875 --> 00:44:00.995 has happened. Yeah. 657 00:44:00.995 --> 00:44:03.315 Like, the bad thing has happened and you're watching the bad 658 00:44:03.315 --> 00:44:07.430 thing happen in this very sanitized way. Like, I even, the 659 00:44:07.430 --> 00:44:10.550 audio the whole time I was like, is this other girl in the room? 660 00:44:10.630 --> 00:44:13.270 Right. Yeah. It doesn't sound like properly 661 00:44:13.510 --> 00:44:15.030 On the phone or on speaker. 662 00:44:15.030 --> 00:44:15.190 It 663 00:44:15.190 --> 00:44:16.310 really sounds like she's like 664 00:44:16.310 --> 00:44:17.750 across the room reading some 665 00:44:17.750 --> 00:44:18.870 pieces of paper. Exactly. 666 00:44:18.870 --> 00:44:24.235 Maybe hired a fiver, you know? Little little 667 00:44:24.235 --> 00:44:24.715 faster. 668 00:44:24.715 --> 00:44:26.235 But Yeah. Come to my house. 669 00:44:26.235 --> 00:44:28.075 I have some I have some lines that I need you 670 00:44:28.075 --> 00:44:28.635 to read. 671 00:44:28.635 --> 00:44:30.235 What I think is, like, fascinating about this 672 00:44:30.235 --> 00:44:33.435 too is, like, the video is a few minutes long. It's not, like, a 673 00:44:33.435 --> 00:44:37.515 twenty second thing. So I'm sure the person who made this is 674 00:44:37.835 --> 00:44:39.860 because you need something about, like, TikTok 675 00:44:39.860 --> 00:44:42.740 monetization. I'm wondering if that's part of it and it's just 676 00:44:42.740 --> 00:44:46.100 another type of content farm stuff. 677 00:44:46.100 --> 00:44:46.740 Definitely. 678 00:44:46.740 --> 00:44:48.980 Because you go to the profile, the link in the 679 00:44:48.980 --> 00:44:51.700 profile is, like, cheaterbuster.com, which I'm 680 00:44:51.700 --> 00:44:55.795 like, maybe they'll get an affiliate link if it's like the 681 00:44:55.795 --> 00:44:58.755 cheaterbuster yeah. Oh, pause. Yes. 682 00:44:58.835 --> 00:45:01.475 What's Yes. Okay. So the so I was about to say 683 00:45:01.475 --> 00:45:05.680 this because if you scroll down in the comments through a few 684 00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:11.680 days ago, the one with the most amount of replies so it got 230 685 00:45:12.160 --> 00:45:17.760 some three replies, and it's from someone named Karen, k a r 686 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.415 I n, who I clicked through to their profile, has no videos, 687 00:45:21.895 --> 00:45:25.495 and is like a very generic bot like name. And and her comment 688 00:45:25.495 --> 00:45:29.335 is, the same happened to me. I found out he is married, and I'm 689 00:45:29.335 --> 00:45:30.055 the other woman. 690 00:45:30.055 --> 00:45:34.650 Should I tell her too? First response to that reply is the 691 00:45:34.650 --> 00:45:39.290 creator of the video saying, use Cheater Buster to find out if 692 00:45:39.290 --> 00:45:39.850 there's more. 693 00:45:39.850 --> 00:45:41.130 Oh. Bingo. This 694 00:45:41.930 --> 00:45:45.530 is an ad. Cheaterbuster.com is an AI tool 695 00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:48.585 that helps users verify if someone has an active Tinder 696 00:45:48.585 --> 00:45:51.625 profile by using basic information like name, age, and 697 00:45:51.625 --> 00:45:55.225 location. It provides detailed profile information, last active 698 00:45:55.225 --> 00:45:58.985 status, and data security, but it may have ethical and legal 699 00:45:58.985 --> 00:45:59.705 implications. 700 00:46:00.425 --> 00:46:01.625 Oh, really? 701 00:46:02.550 --> 00:46:03.430 Oh. No? 702 00:46:03.430 --> 00:46:04.790 Are we sure? Shit. 703 00:46:05.110 --> 00:46:08.230 You know, Zach, it's like I am like, it's an ad, 704 00:46:08.230 --> 00:46:11.750 but I I don't know if it's if it's just like a weird place 705 00:46:11.750 --> 00:46:15.510 where people know that catching cheaters will get a lot of 706 00:46:15.510 --> 00:46:18.325 views, like that type of content. Yep. So like, do wonder 707 00:46:18.325 --> 00:46:22.085 if it's like, you get some sort of like affiliate link type of 708 00:46:22.085 --> 00:46:24.245 referral, like the person making the content. 709 00:46:24.245 --> 00:46:25.925 Right. Like, which thing here is the chicken 710 00:46:25.925 --> 00:46:28.725 and which is the egg? Yeah. Like, what's the what's the 711 00:46:28.725 --> 00:46:29.925 carrot and what's the stick? 712 00:46:29.925 --> 00:46:32.245 Because a similar another account that I 713 00:46:32.245 --> 00:46:37.960 found was linking to another AI service, but it was for a dating 714 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:42.200 advice. Like a Oh, interesting. And it wasn't like the 715 00:46:42.200 --> 00:46:44.920 cheaterbuster.com, but it was like an AI dating coach. 716 00:46:45.015 --> 00:46:47.975 No. So so this has gotta lead you to wonder how 717 00:46:47.975 --> 00:46:50.295 many of these comments are AI too. Right? 718 00:46:50.295 --> 00:46:51.335 Oh, surely. Yeah. 719 00:46:51.335 --> 00:46:52.055 Okay. Yeah. 720 00:46:52.695 --> 00:46:54.375 To generate this much attend, like, this 721 00:46:54.375 --> 00:46:55.335 traffic, absolutely. 722 00:46:55.335 --> 00:46:58.970 But I do think that this is riding on that 723 00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:00.890 story time type 724 00:47:00.890 --> 00:47:01.450 content. Yeah. 725 00:47:02.490 --> 00:47:03.210 Come with Yeah. 726 00:47:04.970 --> 00:47:06.650 I catch my cheating Yeah. 727 00:47:08.410 --> 00:47:12.410 Instead of up, you know, follow for part two, 728 00:47:13.845 --> 00:47:17.845 you know, upload update in a few days, it's just immediately, 729 00:47:17.845 --> 00:47:20.085 you're right into, like, so I called his girlfriend, you know, 730 00:47:20.085 --> 00:47:22.245 like, confronted the yeah. 731 00:47:22.245 --> 00:47:25.765 And there is a vibrant presence of this online 732 00:47:25.765 --> 00:47:29.210 in the more standard issue way of just like, you know, part one 733 00:47:29.210 --> 00:47:33.210 of seven, how my hus my fiance left me at the altar or 734 00:47:33.210 --> 00:47:36.010 whatever. Like, there's there's versions of this that are more, 735 00:47:36.010 --> 00:47:39.370 you know, your analog style version. But this is this, like, 736 00:47:39.370 --> 00:47:44.885 cuts out everything else. Every other more, I guess, human 737 00:47:45.125 --> 00:47:48.405 component of this. I mean, it makes me think of like like if 738 00:47:48.405 --> 00:47:49.925 this is the cheat what is it? 739 00:47:49.925 --> 00:47:50.965 Cheater bot? 740 00:47:51.045 --> 00:47:52.165 Cheater buster. 741 00:47:52.645 --> 00:47:56.005 Cheater buster. In a way, this is kind of what 742 00:47:56.005 --> 00:47:59.890 groups like are we dating the same guy? Mhmm. Do to be like, 743 00:47:59.890 --> 00:48:03.250 hey, does anyone know who this is? And it has more vetting and 744 00:48:03.250 --> 00:48:04.210 it's more complicated. 745 00:48:04.210 --> 00:48:10.450 It can take much more time. And then this, you know, on its face 746 00:48:10.450 --> 00:48:14.975 offers a complete cutting of the line of that. But like, I don't 747 00:48:14.975 --> 00:48:18.495 really believe that that would work. I really don't. Like, 748 00:48:18.495 --> 00:48:20.095 okay, this guy's name is Alex. 749 00:48:22.735 --> 00:48:24.015 Prove it. We got him, boys. 750 00:48:26.860 --> 00:48:28.780 I've been I've just been sitting here 751 00:48:28.780 --> 00:48:32.620 scrolling, like, loading as many comments as I possibly can. 752 00:48:32.780 --> 00:48:37.580 Yeah. And then just Apple f for fake, and only got two. There's 753 00:48:37.580 --> 00:48:38.140 only two. 754 00:48:38.140 --> 00:48:38.700 Really? 755 00:48:38.700 --> 00:48:40.715 Yeah. I've been scrolling, like, for like just 756 00:48:40.715 --> 00:48:45.595 idly for a long time. Like, just loading new comments and only 757 00:48:45.595 --> 00:48:49.275 two have used the word fake. They've used the word saved a 758 00:48:49.275 --> 00:48:50.075 lot. Mhmm. 759 00:48:50.075 --> 00:48:50.955 Wow. Yeah. Nailed it 760 00:48:50.955 --> 00:48:54.100 with that. Yeah. When I saw this and I 761 00:48:54.100 --> 00:48:56.180 noticed that it was fake and there's a pattern of this 762 00:48:56.180 --> 00:49:00.820 content, I now it's like another thing I have to watch out for as 763 00:49:00.820 --> 00:49:04.660 I consume content online. Like, yeah, the regular AI generated 764 00:49:04.660 --> 00:49:09.235 videos, but this is like semi AI related content. You know? 765 00:49:09.235 --> 00:49:12.435 I don't think Yeah. Necessarily, like, the video itself is AI 766 00:49:12.435 --> 00:49:14.515 generated. Maybe the second voice is. 767 00:49:15.395 --> 00:49:16.995 Or, like, maybe the script is. 768 00:49:17.075 --> 00:49:21.840 Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I now, like, earlier 769 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.080 this morning, I was like looking through some of these and I 770 00:49:24.080 --> 00:49:26.320 found one on and had to go to the profile to make sure not all 771 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.880 the content was cheating content. And be like, oh, this 772 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:30.000 one's actually real. 773 00:49:30.720 --> 00:49:31.585 But, yeah. 774 00:49:31.585 --> 00:49:32.705 Like, does it matter? 775 00:49:33.825 --> 00:49:37.665 I I don't I think in the grand scheme of, 776 00:49:37.665 --> 00:49:43.105 like, con the the content that we consume, it matters in the 777 00:49:43.105 --> 00:49:47.270 sense of, like, how we are people storytell. And I was 778 00:49:47.270 --> 00:49:50.310 thinking about this how one of the things that people kind of 779 00:49:50.310 --> 00:49:54.150 are talking about now is, like, the gender divide, getting 780 00:49:54.150 --> 00:49:58.975 bigger in a way. And I feel like this is piggybacking on that, 781 00:49:58.975 --> 00:50:01.855 like, fuck men, which like, yeah. Yay. Fuck men. 782 00:50:01.855 --> 00:50:06.495 But this is not helping. No. God, no. I don't think this is 783 00:50:06.495 --> 00:50:06.735 helping. 784 00:50:06.735 --> 00:50:09.855 This really happens, like, for real? Yeah. 785 00:50:10.095 --> 00:50:11.295 It's just like, 786 00:50:11.295 --> 00:50:13.110 it makes, to me, it makes things really 787 00:50:13.110 --> 00:50:13.830 confusing. 788 00:50:15.030 --> 00:50:17.270 There are more parts to this video. 789 00:50:17.270 --> 00:50:18.150 Yeah. Oh, yeah. 790 00:50:18.150 --> 00:50:20.230 And so I just opened up the part two of 791 00:50:20.230 --> 00:50:23.270 finding out I'm the other woman. Let me read you some of the top 792 00:50:23.270 --> 00:50:27.835 comments. These ads are out of control. 793 00:50:28.235 --> 00:50:29.035 There we go. 794 00:50:29.035 --> 00:50:31.355 To which someone responded, I like how no one 795 00:50:31.355 --> 00:50:34.395 realized it was an ad. I was invested until I saw this video. 796 00:50:34.715 --> 00:50:38.690 Then down below a little bit two days ago, Tyler says, don't 797 00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:40.770 apologize for finding out the truth, exclamation point. 798 00:50:40.770 --> 00:50:43.890 Cheater buster saved both of you and the other girl. Oh my god. 799 00:50:43.970 --> 00:50:46.770 And then down below that, oh my god. Cheater buster is saving 800 00:50:46.770 --> 00:50:47.730 the both of you. 801 00:50:47.810 --> 00:50:50.130 These are reps. These are reps. I'm gonna 802 00:50:50.130 --> 00:50:53.695 go ahead and say SEC violation. 803 00:50:55.135 --> 00:50:58.015 Right? I just love like, I believe this until 804 00:50:58.015 --> 00:51:00.655 I got a BetterHelp ad in the middle of this. 805 00:51:02.335 --> 00:51:04.095 Oh my god. In part three, she's pregnant. 806 00:51:04.830 --> 00:51:06.590 Oh. Wait. Are you serious? 807 00:51:06.590 --> 00:51:12.590 Yes. I just keep coming back to why would some 808 00:51:12.590 --> 00:51:17.390 subset of the audience for this want it to be true? 809 00:51:17.675 --> 00:51:18.955 Is that Yes. 810 00:51:18.955 --> 00:51:21.755 And like Yes. Does that have to do more with 811 00:51:21.835 --> 00:51:25.675 their lives, or does that have to do with the Internet? Like, 812 00:51:25.675 --> 00:51:31.675 do they want to find these sorts of stories online to justify 813 00:51:31.675 --> 00:51:36.090 their use of social media or, you know, principally or more 814 00:51:36.090 --> 00:51:40.010 significantly, like, does this reflect some sort of interest 815 00:51:40.010 --> 00:51:42.570 that they have or some sort of anxiety that they have about 816 00:51:42.570 --> 00:51:45.850 their lives? I'm sure to some degrees, it's both, but like. 817 00:51:46.025 --> 00:51:48.505 I think it is both. Because I think on the one 818 00:51:48.505 --> 00:51:54.105 hand, this kind of story is just such a delicious narrative arc 819 00:51:54.105 --> 00:51:55.865 that can kind of involve you. 820 00:51:55.945 --> 00:51:56.665 Yeah. And 821 00:51:57.145 --> 00:51:58.905 you can feel like you're part of something 822 00:51:58.905 --> 00:52:02.940 bigger that feels important, that feels justified, that feels 823 00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:08.300 righteous. I also think not to get too, I don't know, walk 824 00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:13.820 corkboard with many strings. In the current state of things 825 00:52:13.820 --> 00:52:17.295 right now, it is easy to feel extremely hopeless and 826 00:52:17.295 --> 00:52:20.495 powerless, and I think something like this offers in a very 827 00:52:20.495 --> 00:52:25.455 troubling way, a very small feeling of satisfaction of 828 00:52:25.455 --> 00:52:28.095 groupthink of being like, let's get him. Where's Alex? 829 00:52:30.220 --> 00:52:33.180 It's a lot like hearing you say that, it reminds 830 00:52:33.180 --> 00:52:38.620 me of bits of discourse like, do you wash your legs? Or 831 00:52:39.260 --> 00:52:39.580 do you 832 00:52:39.580 --> 00:52:42.460 do you put your cast iron skillet in the 833 00:52:42.460 --> 00:52:46.045 dishwasher? These things where you get to have a moment of 834 00:52:46.045 --> 00:52:48.445 moral superiority. Yes. Yes. 835 00:52:48.445 --> 00:52:50.685 Yeah. You get to ostracize someone as a treat. 836 00:52:50.685 --> 00:52:51.005 Yeah. 837 00:52:51.005 --> 00:52:52.045 Like Yes. And you 838 00:52:52.045 --> 00:52:53.965 can feel good about it. You can feel good 839 00:52:53.965 --> 00:52:55.085 because he's a cheater. 840 00:52:55.405 --> 00:52:56.765 Yeah. So did anybody sign up for Cheater 841 00:52:56.765 --> 00:52:57.565 Buster while we were talking? 842 00:52:58.290 --> 00:52:59.330 I've actually been 843 00:52:59.330 --> 00:53:00.210 a member for a 844 00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:00.850 long time. 845 00:53:00.850 --> 00:53:02.930 Yeah. Like, I'm actually on the board. Yeah. 846 00:53:02.930 --> 00:53:05.090 Actually, I'm heavily invested. 847 00:53:05.090 --> 00:53:07.010 I've been married for a decade, but, you know 848 00:53:08.610 --> 00:53:09.170 You're like, 849 00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:10.450 I'm I'm ready to get him. 850 00:53:10.450 --> 00:53:11.890 I'm just searching for myself just to 851 00:53:11.890 --> 00:53:12.210 make sure. 852 00:53:12.725 --> 00:53:17.525 Searching for myself. One day, I'll get me. 853 00:53:20.165 --> 00:53:21.925 Meagle, thanks for bringing this in. I do we feel 854 00:53:22.085 --> 00:53:23.925 do you do you feel like you know what's going on? 855 00:53:24.485 --> 00:53:28.440 I yes. But also, I'm now just more 856 00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:29.320 paranoid. 857 00:53:29.640 --> 00:53:31.080 Yeah. I was gonna say, I No. 858 00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:33.080 I feel like I understand this specific thing 859 00:53:33.080 --> 00:53:36.760 more, but I feel just as adrift about modernity as I always do. 860 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:39.400 Yes. I'm just like, wow. Yep. I I do think 861 00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:43.445 that this is the silver lining to coming across this content is 862 00:53:43.445 --> 00:53:47.765 it's one more reason for me to delete TikTok. Yeah. 863 00:53:47.765 --> 00:53:49.525 But will I do it? Time will tell. 864 00:53:49.525 --> 00:53:50.165 Meg will do it. 865 00:53:50.165 --> 00:53:51.205 Leave me alone in there. 866 00:53:54.700 --> 00:53:57.660 It's a it's a glowing recommendation of an app 867 00:53:57.660 --> 00:54:03.500 that you could spend, like, an a not insignificant amount of time 868 00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:07.500 trying to find research based reasons to ignore the things 869 00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:08.460 that you find on it. 870 00:54:08.765 --> 00:54:10.685 Yes. God. Yeah. 871 00:54:10.685 --> 00:54:12.925 It's a great example of using your critical 872 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:13.885 thinking skills. 873 00:54:15.965 --> 00:54:17.805 Okay. I think we've done it. I think we've 874 00:54:17.805 --> 00:54:21.245 figured out what is going on here. But as Georgia said, at 875 00:54:21.245 --> 00:54:26.480 what cost? Meagle, thank you so much for joining us, and thank 876 00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:31.520 you for keeping an eye out for the what's going on here vibe. 877 00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:36.000 Yeah. I I would say that I'm excited to learn more about 878 00:54:36.495 --> 00:54:41.375 cheater cheater breaking up TikTok, but maybe I'm more 879 00:54:41.375 --> 00:54:44.095 excited to know another thing that I can choose to ignore down 880 00:54:44.095 --> 00:54:44.735 the line. 881 00:54:44.975 --> 00:54:46.895 Yes. Thank you for having me. 882 00:54:57.750 --> 00:54:59.510 That's all the WIGO that we have time for in 883 00:54:59.510 --> 00:55:05.835 this episode, but but but we did record one additional entry. A 884 00:55:05.835 --> 00:55:12.235 fintech what that I brought to the group and it's about an app, 885 00:55:12.715 --> 00:55:16.315 a service, it's a little unclear which can only be described as 886 00:55:16.315 --> 00:55:19.970 bleak bleak, and which leads all of us to briefly worry that Hans 887 00:55:19.970 --> 00:55:24.610 may develop a psychosis talking to its AI chatbot. That one is 888 00:55:24.610 --> 00:55:28.930 gonna go out in the coming week on the members only feed. So 889 00:55:28.625 --> 00:55:30.545 keep an eye out for that. It's gonna be great. 890 00:55:30.545 --> 00:55:35.905 And by great, I mean, sort of hand hand wringing and hair 891 00:55:35.905 --> 00:55:39.105 pulling. But funny, bleak with jokes. I mean, I guess that's 892 00:55:39.105 --> 00:56:53.635 kind of our brand. Right? That is the show we have for you this 893 00:56:53.635 --> 00:56:53.875 week. 894 00:56:53.875 --> 00:56:56.395 We're gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, November 895 00:56:56.395 --> 00:57:01.075 19 with a release schedule of two episodes per month. Our $4 a 896 00:57:01.075 --> 00:57:04.670 month membership gets you bespoke, ad free, human made, 897 00:57:04.670 --> 00:57:11.150 human agonized over podcast episodes for $2 a pop. Was this 898 00:57:11.150 --> 00:57:16.015 episode that you just listened to $2 worth of entertainment? If 899 00:57:16.015 --> 00:57:19.935 so, head on over to neverpo.st and become a member today. 900 00:57:19.935 --> 00:57:22.655 Support your favorite local independent Internet pod so we 901 00:57:22.655 --> 00:57:27.215 can keep asking what is going on here, and in return, you get an 902 00:57:27.215 --> 00:57:31.480 ad free feed, sideshows like slow post and never watch, and 903 00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:35.080 pride in knowing that you are supporting independent creators 904 00:57:35.080 --> 00:57:37.880 making weird cool stuff they couldn't anywhere else. 905 00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:43.160 Neverpost's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 906 00:57:43.160 --> 00:57:46.055 mysterious doctor first name, last name. Our senior producer 907 00:57:46.055 --> 00:57:49.015 is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer, 908 00:57:49.015 --> 00:57:53.975 and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. My favorite 909 00:57:53.975 --> 00:57:56.695 part of the drive is the place where bare thoughts stretch 910 00:57:56.695 --> 00:57:59.415 meadows in front of the westernmost expanses of 911 00:57:59.415 --> 00:58:03.130 Naperville, Illinois. Chicago is confetti in the deep night 912 00:58:03.130 --> 00:58:03.930 skyline. 913 00:58:04.490 --> 00:58:09.690 I think of nothing but fear and hunger. I miss him. I hate him. 914 00:58:10.330 --> 00:58:13.930 As I drive, the inevitable intrudes itself. History solves 915 00:58:13.930 --> 00:58:14.730 no mysteries. 916 00:58:15.245 --> 00:58:17.885 The road is still poignant with scraps of what I thought I had 917 00:58:17.885 --> 00:58:21.245 abandoned. Postcards and dialogue long distance and 918 00:58:21.245 --> 00:58:25.325 centuries of inter clan warfare pressed into my DNA. He thinks 919 00:58:25.325 --> 00:58:29.085 it can call me or drop by at any time of day or night and I will 920 00:58:29.085 --> 00:58:32.430 beg him stay with me. I miss him. I hate him. 921 00:58:34.030 --> 00:58:39.630 Excerpt of Uneasy Ghosts by Susan Smith Nash. Never Post is 922 00:58:39.630 --> 00:58:42.715 a production of Charts and Leisure and is distributed by 923 00:58:42.715 --> 00:58:43.595 Radiotopia.