WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.915 Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13.915 --> 00:00:16.235 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16.235 --> 00:00:21.195 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 08/26/2025 at 4 00:00:21.195 --> 00:00:27.915 08:57AM eastern, and we have a nonstop show for you this week. 5 00:00:27.995 --> 00:00:31.490 First, I talked with David Huerta, senior digital security 6 00:00:31.490 --> 00:00:35.010 trainer at Freedom of the Press Foundation about Blue Sky being 7 00:00:35.010 --> 00:00:41.475 blocked in Mississippi and the usefulness of VPNs. Then hot on 8 00:00:41.475 --> 00:00:46.195 the heels of our member drive stream week, an edit of our what 9 00:00:46.435 --> 00:00:51.955 is going on here stream recorded live in front of a Twitch chat 10 00:00:51.955 --> 00:00:55.610 audience and also the gang games. 11 00:00:55.690 --> 00:00:57.930 But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna 12 00:00:57.930 --> 00:01:00.650 listen to some ads unless you're in the member feed. And when we 13 00:01:00.650 --> 00:01:02.890 return, we'll talk about a few of the things that have happened 14 00:01:02.890 --> 00:01:07.625 since the last time you heard from us. It's something 15 00:01:07.625 --> 00:01:11.465 unpredictable, but in the end, that's four stories for you this 16 00:01:11.465 --> 00:01:17.065 week. AOL is suspending dial up service, something you maybe 17 00:01:17.065 --> 00:01:19.200 thought it did twenty years ago. 18 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:24.400 The ISP will cease the max 56 k b p s connection on September 19 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:29.120 30. In 2021, when AOL sold to private equity firm Apollo 20 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.225 Global Management, CNBC reported that quote, the number of dial 21 00:01:33.225 --> 00:01:50.960 up users is now in the low thousands. Kickstarter United, 22 00:01:50.960 --> 00:01:54.640 the union of Kickstarter workers organized under o p e I u local 23 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.485 one fifty three, is currently collecting signatures on a 24 00:01:58.485 --> 00:02:02.005 petition asking management to include in their contract 25 00:02:02.085 --> 00:02:07.525 guarantees to maintain their preexisting standard of a four 26 00:02:07.525 --> 00:02:12.860 day work week. Since April 2022, the union writes, Kickstarter 27 00:02:12.860 --> 00:02:16.380 employees have worked under a four day, thirty two hour work 28 00:02:16.380 --> 00:02:20.300 week. It began as a commitment to building a healthier, more 29 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:22.060 sustainable workplace. 30 00:02:22.220 --> 00:02:25.675 During this time, Kickstarter experienced the most successful 31 00:02:25.675 --> 00:02:29.355 period in its sixteen year history, hosting some of the 32 00:02:29.355 --> 00:02:32.395 biggest, most groundbreaking projects ever launched on the 33 00:02:32.395 --> 00:02:36.235 platform, end quote. They later continue, as we entered contract 34 00:02:36.235 --> 00:02:39.820 negotiations with management, we asked them to make the four day 35 00:02:39.820 --> 00:02:43.740 thirty two hour work week permanent, not as a pilot or a 36 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:47.980 promise, but as policy. They have refused and are determined 37 00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:53.035 to retain the ability to make us work 25% more hours for no 38 00:02:53.195 --> 00:02:57.275 additional compensation. They're asking for support in the form 39 00:02:57.275 --> 00:03:01.355 of petition signatures, so we've included a link to that in the 40 00:03:01.355 --> 00:03:07.030 show notes if you'd like to sign. YouTube has been using AI 41 00:03:07.030 --> 00:03:11.030 to upscale already uploaded videos without uploader 42 00:03:11.030 --> 00:03:11.750 permission. 43 00:03:11.910 --> 00:03:15.350 On August 14, music YouTuber, Rhett Schull, uploaded a video 44 00:03:15.350 --> 00:03:19.910 titled YouTube is using AI to alter content and not telling 45 00:03:19.910 --> 00:03:23.565 us. Made after his friend and colleague Rick Beeto, another 46 00:03:23.565 --> 00:03:26.685 music YouTuber, noticed he looked sort of like an AI 47 00:03:26.685 --> 00:03:32.045 deepfake of himself in certain YouTube shorts. The BBC reports 48 00:03:32.045 --> 00:03:36.365 that complaints of AI upscaling by YouTube go back to June on 49 00:03:35.730 --> 00:03:39.650 social media, quote, with users posting close ups of odd looking 50 00:03:39.650 --> 00:03:43.810 body parts and questioning YouTube's intentions. Now, they 51 00:03:43.810 --> 00:03:47.490 continue, after months of rumors in comment sections, the company 52 00:03:47.490 --> 00:03:51.635 has finally confirmed it is altering a limited number of 53 00:03:51.635 --> 00:03:55.795 videos on YouTube shorts, the app's short form video feature. 54 00:03:55.955 --> 00:03:59.395 We're running an experiment on select YouTube shorts, a company 55 00:03:59.395 --> 00:04:02.515 representative says, that uses traditional machine learning 56 00:04:02.515 --> 00:04:06.540 technology to unblur, denoise, and improve clarity in videos 57 00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:09.740 during processing, similar to what a modern smartphone does 58 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:12.060 when you record a video, end quote. 59 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:16.620 Improving clarity by making everyone look like cake. Yum. 60 00:04:16.700 --> 00:04:23.305 It's your birthday. And finally, research out of MIT shows that 61 00:04:23.305 --> 00:04:28.825 95% of generative AI pilots at companies are failing. Fortune 62 00:04:28.825 --> 00:04:31.945 reports that, quote, the vast majority stall delivering little 63 00:04:31.945 --> 00:04:35.385 to no measurable impact on profits and losses, end quote. 64 00:04:35.650 --> 00:04:38.530 Study authors tell Fortune that while executives may push for 65 00:04:38.530 --> 00:04:42.690 more AI use and blame regulation or model performance for lack of 66 00:04:42.690 --> 00:04:46.290 uptake, the problem actually lies in a misunderstanding of 67 00:04:46.290 --> 00:04:50.685 what these tools are suited for. Extremely narrow, often rote, 68 00:04:50.765 --> 00:04:54.445 data oriented tasks, what Fortune calls back office 69 00:04:54.445 --> 00:04:57.645 automation. Companies also suffer when they attempt to 70 00:04:57.645 --> 00:05:01.005 design and implement their own AI solutions with findings 71 00:05:01.005 --> 00:05:05.740 showing that nearly 70% of internal tools fail to have any 72 00:05:05.740 --> 00:05:15.820 business impact. In show news this week, folks, friends, 73 00:05:16.300 --> 00:05:19.625 listeners, the member drive stream week is over, but it 74 00:05:19.625 --> 00:05:24.105 lives on in our hearts, and the member drive itself continues. 75 00:05:24.105 --> 00:05:25.305 More on that in a moment. 76 00:05:25.305 --> 00:05:33.170 First, let's do some numbers. Over the last week, we streamed 77 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:36.530 thirty six hours and one minute. You all watched us for a 78 00:05:36.530 --> 00:05:39.570 combined total of eighty eight thousand eight hundred and 79 00:05:39.570 --> 00:05:42.930 twenty seven minutes. We had an average viewer count over those 80 00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:46.825 thirty six hours of forty one with a max concurrent viewer 81 00:05:46.825 --> 00:05:53.065 count of a 138. We reached 11,322 unique people and there 82 00:05:53.065 --> 00:05:56.105 were 156 of you in the chat. 83 00:05:56.185 --> 00:06:04.430 That all adds up to 16,294 live views and 17,006 v o d views. 84 00:06:04.430 --> 00:06:06.350 And a bunch of those are still up if you wanna go watch. 85 00:06:06.350 --> 00:06:10.110 They're gonna expire soon, I think. 65% of our audience was 86 00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:14.750 in The US and 35% elsewhere. Switzerland, looking at you. 87 00:06:14.750 --> 00:06:19.205 And we were rated once by the investigators pod while we were 88 00:06:19.205 --> 00:06:25.205 all quietly watching Virtuosity. We now have 218 Twitch followers 89 00:06:25.205 --> 00:06:29.045 and 31 subscribers, five of which were gifted. We have 90 00:06:29.045 --> 00:06:33.420 reached affiliate status. I only kind of know what that means, 91 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:37.100 except that we'll probably keep streaming at least a little 92 00:06:37.100 --> 00:06:41.420 every once in a while. So if you wanna catch us when we go live, 93 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:47.815 make sure to follow us at twitch.tv/theneverpost. 94 00:06:48.135 --> 00:06:52.215 We also announced that the never post subreddit is the place to 95 00:06:52.215 --> 00:06:55.015 hang out with other listeners as well as the staff of the show, 96 00:06:55.015 --> 00:06:59.255 and we have got 62 new members over there, including at least 97 00:06:59.255 --> 00:07:03.970 one that is site wide shadow band. That's me, Mike Rugnetta. 98 00:07:03.970 --> 00:07:08.530 I will accept any tips on how to remedy that situation. Anyways, 99 00:07:08.530 --> 00:07:11.730 r forward slash never post. Come hang out on Ramit. 100 00:07:11.890 --> 00:07:15.595 But okay. The big number, the important one, how many new 101 00:07:15.675 --> 00:07:21.195 members did we get? Our goal for August is to add 200 new members 102 00:07:21.275 --> 00:07:30.440 and we got a 154. Holy cow. Can we close that gap of 46 in, 103 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.320 looks at calendar, five days? 104 00:07:33.960 --> 00:07:37.320 That is up to you all listening. We did about that many in the 105 00:07:37.320 --> 00:07:41.240 first two days of the member drive. Maybe we can do it again 106 00:07:41.495 --> 00:07:44.375 to close it out. If you aren't already a member and have been 107 00:07:44.375 --> 00:07:48.615 thinking about becoming one for $4 a month, there's no better 108 00:07:48.615 --> 00:07:50.455 time than right now, I promise. Okay. 109 00:07:50.455 --> 00:07:53.735 Two more things. Wow. Lots of show news this week. We've been 110 00:07:53.735 --> 00:07:58.280 very busy. If you've always wanted to be a member but aren't 111 00:07:58.280 --> 00:08:01.320 in a spot where you can part with $4 a month, we have a 112 00:08:01.320 --> 00:08:05.800 limited number of gift memberships still available from 113 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:06.600 the stream week. 114 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.505 Your fellow listeners have donated a year of membership. 115 00:08:10.505 --> 00:08:13.305 That is how much they like being members, and we're gonna give 116 00:08:13.305 --> 00:08:16.905 them out first come, first served. So just email us at the 117 00:08:16.905 --> 00:08:21.865 neverpost@Gmail.com with the subject gift membership in all 118 00:08:21.865 --> 00:08:25.150 caps. If we still have some available, we'll reply with 119 00:08:25.150 --> 00:08:32.270 details. And finally, if you've always wanted merch, now's the 120 00:08:32.270 --> 00:08:32.670 time. 121 00:08:32.670 --> 00:08:35.965 That's right. Never post has t shirts. You can head to 122 00:08:35.965 --> 00:08:41.245 neverpost.bigcartel.com to take a look at the two designs 123 00:08:41.245 --> 00:08:45.165 currently available. One by the incomparable casket map and the 124 00:08:45.165 --> 00:08:50.285 other by the inimitable Spence Nelson. These are shirt 125 00:08:49.660 --> 00:08:50.620 preorders. 126 00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:54.860 Once preorders are closed on September 12, shirts will be 127 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:58.620 handprinted and then shipped by the Neverpost staff. We are not 128 00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:01.660 printing them. We are hiring a professional who's very, good to 129 00:09:01.660 --> 00:09:04.575 print them, but we will be packing and shipping them. See 130 00:09:04.575 --> 00:09:08.655 the item page for more details about what preorder means and, 131 00:09:08.815 --> 00:09:11.135 what you can expect as far as timing and shipping and all 132 00:09:11.135 --> 00:09:14.415 that. Neverpost.bigcartel.com. 133 00:09:14.655 --> 00:09:20.740 Okay. That is the news I have for you this week. First, blue 134 00:09:20.740 --> 00:09:25.380 sky is blocked in Mississippi. Then, what is going on here? But 135 00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:28.100 right now, at certain points throughout the stream week, 136 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:30.900 myself, Jason, and Georgia played video games. 137 00:09:31.155 --> 00:09:34.595 Maybe you've heard them. In our interstitials this week, clips 138 00:09:34.595 --> 00:09:36.995 from Never Post Plays. 139 00:09:37.395 --> 00:09:39.555 Alright. Well, well. Alright. Chat, 140 00:09:40.035 --> 00:09:41.795 you have decided this is the person that 141 00:09:41.795 --> 00:09:45.420 I look like. I don't super remember what Bobby Pin looks 142 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:45.900 like. 143 00:09:45.900 --> 00:09:46.780 This is about to be great. 144 00:09:46.780 --> 00:09:50.140 So you're gonna find out. Well, don't look it up 145 00:09:50.140 --> 00:09:51.580 because then you'll see what she looks like. 146 00:09:51.660 --> 00:09:54.460 Oh, let's find out together. Wow. Yep. 147 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:56.635 Okay. Like a family. 148 00:09:57.275 --> 00:10:01.435 Georgia, I'm excited for you. Before you Oh. Feel an 149 00:10:01.915 --> 00:10:03.995 overwhelming air of cool of 150 00:10:04.155 --> 00:10:05.755 An overwhelming air of cool? 151 00:10:07.460 --> 00:10:09.700 Leather and metal and the best hair and 152 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:15.940 eyebrows you've ever seen. Bow is impartially cool. Are 153 00:10:21.620 --> 00:10:22.340 you kidding me? 154 00:10:22.655 --> 00:10:23.535 Oh. 155 00:10:24.655 --> 00:10:28.095 Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. 156 00:10:28.095 --> 00:10:30.415 This is the hugest compliment I've ever 157 00:10:30.415 --> 00:10:36.015 gotten in my life. Well, they say that in a lot of queer 158 00:10:36.015 --> 00:10:38.920 relationships, people look like twins. So let's go. Problem 159 00:10:38.920 --> 00:10:43.000 punk? Oh my god. 160 00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:48.360 Should we be sassy? Our three options are what? 161 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:49.640 You would know. This is like you're 162 00:10:49.640 --> 00:10:50.760 fighting the mirror right now. I'm fighting 163 00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:53.025 the mirror right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think 164 00:10:53.025 --> 00:10:54.305 it's a. Okay. 165 00:10:54.305 --> 00:10:57.025 She said, you got a problem, punk? No. But it sounds like you 166 00:10:57.025 --> 00:10:57.585 do. 167 00:10:57.985 --> 00:10:59.665 What? Me? Nah. 168 00:10:59.665 --> 00:11:02.545 I'm just messing with you. Me coded also. 169 00:11:02.545 --> 00:11:03.665 My name's Bobby. 170 00:11:03.665 --> 00:11:04.545 Bobby Pin. 171 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:09.010 Oh my god. I love you. We are the same. 172 00:12:15.495 --> 00:12:18.695 Mississippi house bill one one two six, known 173 00:12:18.695 --> 00:12:22.135 otherwise as the Walker Montgomery protecting children 174 00:12:22.135 --> 00:12:27.910 online act, was passed on 04/20/2024 and signed by 175 00:12:27.910 --> 00:12:32.230 Mississippi governor Tate Reeves on April 30. The bill was 176 00:12:32.230 --> 00:12:36.390 established quote to protect minors from harmful content. How 177 00:12:36.390 --> 00:12:39.830 does it do this? Well, I'll let the bill speak for itself. It 178 00:12:39.555 --> 00:12:43.715 reads, one, digital service provider may not enter into an 179 00:12:43.715 --> 00:12:47.155 agreement with a person to create an account with a digital 180 00:12:47.155 --> 00:12:51.315 service unless the person has registered the person's age with 181 00:12:51.315 --> 00:12:52.755 the digital service provider. 182 00:12:53.030 --> 00:12:55.830 And then later, a digital service provider shall not 183 00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:59.590 permit an account holder who is a known minor to be an account 184 00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:03.430 holder unless the known minor has expressed consent from a 185 00:13:03.430 --> 00:13:07.190 parent or guardian. It then lists ways in which consent can 186 00:13:07.190 --> 00:13:11.475 be given. A form which can be emailed or faxed, a toll free 187 00:13:11.475 --> 00:13:15.715 phone line that can be called, a video chat, an ID scan which 188 00:13:15.715 --> 00:13:19.955 then must be deleted it says, or any other quote commercially 189 00:13:19.955 --> 00:13:25.010 reasonable method. Once consent is given, the DSP then needs to 190 00:13:25.010 --> 00:13:29.730 make sure that it abides by further rules concerning what a 191 00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:34.690 minor can and cannot be shown. The bill reads, one, in relation 192 00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:37.695 to a known minor's use of a digital service, a digital 193 00:13:37.695 --> 00:13:41.135 service provider shall make commercially reasonable efforts 194 00:13:41.135 --> 00:13:44.175 to develop and implement a strategy to prevent or mitigate 195 00:13:44.175 --> 00:13:47.935 the known minors exposure to harmful material and other 196 00:13:47.935 --> 00:13:52.415 content that promotes or facilitates the following harms 197 00:13:51.540 --> 00:13:52.580 to minors. 198 00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:55.780 A, consistent with evidence informed medical information, 199 00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:59.380 the following, self harm, eating disorders, substance use 200 00:13:59.380 --> 00:14:03.060 disorders, and suicidal behaviors. B, patterns of use 201 00:14:03.060 --> 00:14:05.940 that indicate or encourage substance abuse or use of 202 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:10.255 illegal drugs. C, stalking, physical violence, online 203 00:14:10.255 --> 00:14:14.895 bullying, or harassment. D, grooming, trafficking, child 204 00:14:14.895 --> 00:14:18.895 pornography, or other sexual exploitation or abuse. E, 205 00:14:18.895 --> 00:14:23.055 incitement of violence or f, any other illegal activity. 206 00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:27.110 Not only does this mean the DSP needs to keep track of who is 207 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:31.510 and who is not a minor, some of these guidelines are also very 208 00:14:31.510 --> 00:14:35.590 broad. In today's political climate, labels like any other 209 00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:40.145 illegal activity are definitely moving targets. Net Choice, a 210 00:14:40.145 --> 00:14:42.705 trade association which represents tech clients like 211 00:14:42.705 --> 00:14:47.345 Meta, Airbnb, Amazon, Reddit, Snap, and thirty some others 212 00:14:47.345 --> 00:14:51.265 sued Mississippi over h b one one two six saying it likely 213 00:14:51.265 --> 00:14:54.680 violates free speech guaranteed by the first amendment and equal 214 00:14:54.680 --> 00:14:58.520 protection rights guaranteed by the fourteenth. Netchoice asked 215 00:14:58.520 --> 00:15:02.440 for an injunction, a pause on enforcement of the law while a 216 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.015 court determines if those rights were being violated. The United 217 00:15:06.015 --> 00:15:08.895 States District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi 218 00:15:08.895 --> 00:15:13.455 granted that injunction saying Netchoice was probably right and 219 00:15:13.455 --> 00:15:16.495 that furthermore, they likely had standing to bring suit. 220 00:15:16.495 --> 00:15:20.460 Mississippi's AG, Lynn Fitch, appealed saying that the 221 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:24.380 district court didn't provide analysis as required by legal 222 00:15:24.380 --> 00:15:27.020 precedent. The United States Court of Appeals for the fifth 223 00:15:27.020 --> 00:15:31.100 circuit agreed and vacated the injunction, which meant that h b 224 00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:36.060 one one two six could go into effect over a year after it was 225 00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:39.635 originally signed. This back and forth made it to the Supreme 226 00:15:39.635 --> 00:15:43.635 Court who concurred with the Fifth Circuit. Earlier in 227 00:15:43.635 --> 00:15:46.995 August, writing for the court with no dissents included, 228 00:15:47.075 --> 00:15:50.675 justice Kavanaugh says, Netchoice has, in my view, 229 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:54.380 demonstrated that it is likely to succeed on the merits. 230 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:57.580 Namely, that enforcement of the Mississippi law would likely 231 00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:00.460 violate its members first amendment rights under this 232 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:01.660 court's precedence. 233 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:05.715 However, he continued, because net choice has not sufficiently 234 00:16:05.715 --> 00:16:09.555 demonstrated that the balance of harms and equities favors it at 235 00:16:09.555 --> 00:16:12.515 this time, I concur in the court's denial of the 236 00:16:12.515 --> 00:16:16.275 application for interim relief. Basically, while the law is 237 00:16:16.275 --> 00:16:19.810 likely unconstitutional, net choice didn't convincingly show 238 00:16:19.810 --> 00:16:24.850 that the courts need to step in as soon as possible. So h b one 239 00:16:24.850 --> 00:16:29.690 one two six stands. The supreme court's decision made on August 240 00:16:29.690 --> 00:16:33.895 14 further cemented the fact that perhaps eventually this law 241 00:16:33.895 --> 00:16:36.775 could be overturned, but in the interim Mississippi could 242 00:16:36.775 --> 00:16:38.935 continue to enforce it as written. 243 00:16:40.855 --> 00:16:44.455 And many websites started creating these sort of 244 00:16:44.455 --> 00:16:48.930 like, not exactly pay walls, but age walls for verification. 245 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:50.930 This is David Huerta. 246 00:16:51.250 --> 00:16:54.290 I'm David Huerta. I'm one of the senior digital 247 00:16:54.290 --> 00:16:57.410 security trainers over at Freedom of the Press Foundation. 248 00:16:57.890 --> 00:16:59.970 The Freedom of the Press Foundation helps 249 00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:04.015 journalists safely do their work online. This means, among other 250 00:17:04.015 --> 00:17:07.295 things, knowing how to protect their identities in certain 251 00:17:07.295 --> 00:17:10.255 scenarios, something that this ruling has now made more 252 00:17:10.255 --> 00:17:14.015 complicated for many websites accessible within Mississippi. 253 00:17:14.790 --> 00:17:16.710 This, of course, carries a certain amount of 254 00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:20.150 security and privacy concerns. Of course, there's the fact that 255 00:17:20.150 --> 00:17:22.710 you're trusting a third party website with something as 256 00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:26.150 sensitive as your ID, for example. There is also the 257 00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:29.295 concerns around, for example, securing that data once it 258 00:17:29.295 --> 00:17:31.855 arrives, that image of your driver's license once it arrives 259 00:17:31.855 --> 00:17:38.255 on their end, and how much trust do you have on these systems to 260 00:17:38.255 --> 00:17:44.260 actually protect your data. I feel like we've all had GDPR 261 00:17:44.260 --> 00:17:47.620 database notifications reach our inbox. These are not infrequent. 262 00:17:48.020 --> 00:17:50.580 And sometimes the stakes are relatively low. It's like, oh, I 263 00:17:50.580 --> 00:17:53.620 guess I gotta change my password. But if we're gonna 264 00:17:53.620 --> 00:17:55.940 make the age verification the norm and we're gonna have our, 265 00:17:56.215 --> 00:17:59.255 you know, our driver's licenses or passports all over the place, 266 00:17:59.815 --> 00:18:02.855 it's a lot harder to change your driver's license number than it 267 00:18:02.855 --> 00:18:04.695 is to change a password on the website. 268 00:18:05.015 --> 00:18:07.255 I wanted to talk with David to better understand 269 00:18:07.255 --> 00:18:11.420 how companies are responding to these risky new age wall 270 00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:14.220 requirements and also to better understand some of the 271 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:17.180 technologies that people are suggesting for circumventing 272 00:18:17.180 --> 00:18:21.860 them. I started by asking about a blog post from Friday, August 273 00:18:21.860 --> 00:18:26.685 22 that was written by the Blue Sky team entitled our response 274 00:18:26.685 --> 00:18:32.445 to Mississippi's age assurance law. It read, starting today, if 275 00:18:32.445 --> 00:18:36.390 you access Blue Sky from a Mississippi IP address, you'll 276 00:18:36.390 --> 00:18:40.070 see a message explaining why the app isn't available. This block 277 00:18:40.070 --> 00:18:43.910 will remain in place while the courts decide whether the law 278 00:18:43.910 --> 00:18:47.750 will stand. And this means that at the time of recording, while 279 00:18:47.750 --> 00:18:51.605 we're recording this, Blue Sky is no longer reachable in the 280 00:18:51.605 --> 00:18:52.885 state of Mississippi. 281 00:18:52.965 --> 00:18:56.725 Yep. If I'm understanding correctly, it is not that 282 00:18:56.725 --> 00:19:01.205 Mississippi has blocked Blue Sky. It is that Blue Sky has 283 00:19:01.205 --> 00:19:05.590 made itself unavailable to people who are logging in or 284 00:19:05.590 --> 00:19:09.270 trying to access the website from a Mississippi IP address. 285 00:19:10.070 --> 00:19:13.110 That is correct. In this case, Blue Sky is 286 00:19:13.110 --> 00:19:15.990 basically trying to figure out where exactly it fits into this 287 00:19:15.990 --> 00:19:21.045 law, how exactly is its content being interpreted, and how much 288 00:19:21.045 --> 00:19:24.565 does that actually affect them. So unfortunately, this creates a 289 00:19:24.565 --> 00:19:27.525 sort of, like, chilling effect where they maybe don't wanna 290 00:19:27.525 --> 00:19:29.925 take on that risk of getting sued or getting in trouble with 291 00:19:29.925 --> 00:19:33.850 the law. So rather than dealing with that and the interpretation 292 00:19:33.850 --> 00:19:36.970 of, like, where they fit into that law, they've decided, in 293 00:19:36.970 --> 00:19:39.690 this case, it seems to pull out entirely until that's figured 294 00:19:39.690 --> 00:19:40.170 out. 295 00:19:40.970 --> 00:19:43.770 In their blog post, they write, we think this 296 00:19:43.770 --> 00:19:47.165 law creates challenges that go beyond its child safety goals 297 00:19:47.165 --> 00:19:50.125 and creates significant barriers that limit free speech and 298 00:19:50.125 --> 00:19:53.805 disproportionately harms smaller platforms and emerging 299 00:19:53.805 --> 00:19:58.125 technologies. Do have a sense of what it is that they mean in 300 00:19:58.125 --> 00:20:02.050 that case? Like, what is it about this that they feel is 301 00:20:02.050 --> 00:20:06.450 disproportionately harming them as a small team or a new piece 302 00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:07.410 of technology? 303 00:20:08.690 --> 00:20:12.370 Yeah. I feel like there's, you know, a lot of 304 00:20:12.370 --> 00:20:18.095 things that go into features being requested as part of this 305 00:20:18.095 --> 00:20:23.135 law that other companies have either already implemented or 306 00:20:23.135 --> 00:20:25.455 have the staffing, the resources, the money to 307 00:20:25.455 --> 00:20:28.495 basically implement it and have a lot of experience with that, 308 00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:32.060 including with things like content moderation as kind of an 309 00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:36.540 an addenda in addition to that. When it comes to Blue Sky and 310 00:20:36.540 --> 00:20:40.860 also other smaller platforms like Mastodon, which in in their 311 00:20:40.860 --> 00:20:44.380 cases, for example, are, like, small mini Blue Skies almost 312 00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:48.275 that may have, like, one or two people total running the show 313 00:20:48.275 --> 00:20:51.795 for their for their particular communities. Having to spin up 314 00:20:51.795 --> 00:20:56.275 all these new features and worry about the sort of, like, legal 315 00:20:56.275 --> 00:20:59.555 repercussions of what happens if they make a mistake is something 316 00:20:59.555 --> 00:21:03.530 that is much much more consequential to them than it 317 00:21:03.530 --> 00:21:06.730 would be for, like, a vastly wealthy company like Meta, for 318 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:07.290 example. 319 00:21:07.370 --> 00:21:08.650 Or, like, Facebook's got the 320 00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:12.490 infrastructure maybe preexisting or is able to get it up quickly 321 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:18.825 to store and process scans of IDs, even if that is sort of, in 322 00:21:18.825 --> 00:21:21.305 a larger sense, something we should all be suspicious of, it 323 00:21:21.305 --> 00:21:23.705 is something that they can build quickly. 324 00:21:24.585 --> 00:21:26.825 Yeah. They have the infrastructure. They have 325 00:21:26.825 --> 00:21:30.400 the security engineers. They have the lawyers. They have the 326 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.080 resources, basically, to help them navigate that a lot more 327 00:21:34.080 --> 00:21:37.600 smoothly than, you know, a team that is made up of, like, you 328 00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:40.240 know, a dozen or or maybe in some types of less people when 329 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:41.360 it comes to things like Mastodon. 330 00:21:41.785 --> 00:21:43.705 Yeah. Yeah. Your point about Mastodon is 331 00:21:43.705 --> 00:21:46.825 interesting. I hadn't considered that. Are you seeing a similar 332 00:21:46.825 --> 00:21:49.865 thing happening in Mastodon instances? 333 00:21:49.865 --> 00:21:52.745 Are are Mastodon instances also blocking access from 334 00:21:52.745 --> 00:21:53.225 Mississippi? 335 00:21:54.110 --> 00:21:57.390 I have not seen that yet. I can't tell whether 336 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:00.590 Blue Sky is sort of the exception to the rule or whether 337 00:22:00.590 --> 00:22:03.230 they are the canary in the coal mine, and this is just the 338 00:22:03.230 --> 00:22:06.750 beginning of what has to come for many other social media 339 00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:09.245 platforms, including a lot of platforms where a lot of 340 00:22:09.245 --> 00:22:13.165 journalistic work is being done, where a lot of you know, if if 341 00:22:13.165 --> 00:22:17.085 people remember, there was a lot of news that broke on Twitter. 342 00:22:17.085 --> 00:22:20.445 There was a lot of news that broke on social media. These 343 00:22:20.445 --> 00:22:24.790 platforms are basically a source of journalistic work and news 344 00:22:24.790 --> 00:22:30.950 for many people, and having them suddenly not be accessible is is 345 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:34.630 an issue because now people don't have the same access or at 346 00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:36.790 least the same variety of places to get their news from. 347 00:22:37.235 --> 00:22:39.635 One thing I've seen online in response to all 348 00:22:39.635 --> 00:22:45.555 of this is time to get a VPN. Yeah. Could you describe, just 349 00:22:45.555 --> 00:22:48.035 in broad terms, what a VPN is? 350 00:22:48.435 --> 00:22:52.600 Sure. So VPN, in this case, is a virtual private 351 00:22:52.600 --> 00:22:57.560 network, a way for you to use someone else's Internet 352 00:22:57.560 --> 00:22:59.960 connection to connect to the website that you actually wanna 353 00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:04.295 access. And it is one of those things where, largely speaking, 354 00:23:04.295 --> 00:23:08.055 VPNs are still relatively effective at getting around a 355 00:23:08.055 --> 00:23:12.055 lot of blockage that exists, especially simple sort of like 356 00:23:12.055 --> 00:23:16.120 IP based blocks like this where if, you know, there's a sort of 357 00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:19.000 IP address that is associated with a specific jurisdiction 358 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.320 like Mississippi, you can basically simply appear from an 359 00:23:23.320 --> 00:23:25.640 IP address that is not one of those. 360 00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:30.135 IP address kinda acting like almost like an area 361 00:23:30.135 --> 00:23:33.815 code on your phone. Right? You can sort of tell roughly where 362 00:23:33.815 --> 00:23:37.255 someone is from based upon this marker and how they're 363 00:23:37.255 --> 00:23:41.175 communicating with you. And so that's how Blue Sky is able to 364 00:23:41.175 --> 00:23:44.820 say, no. Thank you to folks who try to sign on from Mississippi 365 00:23:44.820 --> 00:23:47.140 and how a VPN can say, like, oh, no. 366 00:23:47.140 --> 00:23:50.660 No. Like, actually, I'm from New York or I'm from Vermont. And 367 00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:53.060 so, you know, sort of like changing your area code or 368 00:23:53.060 --> 00:23:53.300 something. 369 00:23:54.105 --> 00:23:56.985 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You could appear to the 370 00:23:56.985 --> 00:24:00.265 websites you're visiting as if you're in another place, like 371 00:24:00.265 --> 00:24:00.985 another state. 372 00:24:00.985 --> 00:24:04.505 Yeah. Yeah. Do you think VPN saturation is 373 00:24:04.505 --> 00:24:08.560 about to just, like, skyrocket, or or do you think this is a 374 00:24:08.560 --> 00:24:09.840 sort of limited trend? 375 00:24:11.520 --> 00:24:14.800 I feel like I don't know what the outcome of 376 00:24:14.800 --> 00:24:18.160 this of this blue sky block is going to be. So it's interesting 377 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.560 to see, like, whether the courts will interpret things in a way 378 00:24:20.560 --> 00:24:25.945 that makes it less of a necessity. Yeah. But if we do 379 00:24:25.945 --> 00:24:28.745 kinda start setting this precedence of just like, well, 380 00:24:28.745 --> 00:24:31.065 we have these kind of, like, broadly defined laws that make 381 00:24:31.065 --> 00:24:34.930 it incredibly difficult for a smaller website to operate, The 382 00:24:34.930 --> 00:24:38.450 only way to really access this is through a VPN. Then we may, 383 00:24:38.450 --> 00:24:42.290 in fact, reach this point where that does become sort of a 384 00:24:42.290 --> 00:24:43.730 normal thing people have. 385 00:24:44.530 --> 00:24:48.215 Can you just tell us a little bit about the other 386 00:24:48.215 --> 00:24:51.575 states around the world where VPN use is really common? 387 00:24:52.055 --> 00:24:56.055 Yeah. There is a lot of VPN usage in places like 388 00:24:56.055 --> 00:24:59.175 China where there is sort of, like, government facilitated 389 00:24:59.175 --> 00:25:04.000 infrastructure that blocks many foreign websites. There's sort 390 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:09.120 of, like, mix of how it's used. In many cases, it's, you know, 391 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:11.600 sometimes something that is deeply frowned upon. In other 392 00:25:11.600 --> 00:25:14.815 cases, it's sort of, like, allowing it just enough because 393 00:25:14.815 --> 00:25:17.855 it's sort of the cost of doing business with the outside world. 394 00:25:18.495 --> 00:25:23.215 In other places like Russia, for example, there is some blockage 395 00:25:23.215 --> 00:25:27.910 of some VPNs, but it's not always easy for a government 396 00:25:27.910 --> 00:25:32.150 system to sort of, like, keep track of all that, and it 397 00:25:32.150 --> 00:25:35.590 varies. Sometimes governments will have, like, a very 398 00:25:35.590 --> 00:25:38.070 centralized way to control, like, access to the Internet. 399 00:25:38.525 --> 00:25:41.885 Other times, they'll have a mix of, like, well, we have this 400 00:25:42.285 --> 00:25:47.405 government censorship firewall for your home ISP and your 401 00:25:47.405 --> 00:25:52.685 office ISP, but the mobile providers are not haven't built 402 00:25:52.685 --> 00:25:58.500 it for them yet. So a VPN is kind of a workaround that can 403 00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:02.340 exist for any combination of these situations where if you're 404 00:26:02.340 --> 00:26:05.460 seeing blockage, you can use a VPN to use this. And maybe in 405 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:08.020 places where a VPN is blocked, there may be other ways to 406 00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:10.275 connect and then use a VPN to access things. 407 00:26:10.675 --> 00:26:14.675 It's kind of all over the place, honestly. But in regimes where 408 00:26:14.675 --> 00:26:17.875 there is a lot of, like, very sort of, like, explicit 409 00:26:17.875 --> 00:26:22.995 government blockage of online content, VPNs are pretty common. 410 00:26:22.995 --> 00:26:26.520 Yeah. There's I I have seen some chatter recently 411 00:26:26.520 --> 00:26:33.080 too about The UK becoming maybe the next place where VPNs get 412 00:26:33.080 --> 00:26:36.600 heavily restricted or blocked because use of them skyrocketed 413 00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:40.195 after the implementation of the Online Safety Act. 414 00:26:40.435 --> 00:26:43.475 Yeah. I could definitely see that being the 415 00:26:43.475 --> 00:26:48.435 sort of, like, the new norm for The UK, unfortunately. And I do 416 00:26:48.435 --> 00:26:51.955 think that that's probably going to follow suit in many US states 417 00:26:51.955 --> 00:26:56.120 as well if similar laws to these get passed and if the courts 418 00:26:56.120 --> 00:26:59.960 basically interpret sort of basic social networks and other 419 00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:02.760 kind of platforms as falling within this category. 420 00:27:02.840 --> 00:27:06.675 Yeah. I'm curious if you can talk a little bit 421 00:27:06.675 --> 00:27:11.875 about any of the technical details of how a country or a 422 00:27:11.875 --> 00:27:14.675 state enforces a VPN ban. 423 00:27:15.555 --> 00:27:18.275 Yeah. It's very much a cat and mouse game, and 424 00:27:18.275 --> 00:27:19.875 unfortunately, the VPNs are the mice. 425 00:27:20.090 --> 00:27:21.370 So Of course. 426 00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:23.450 Sometimes the mice are still clever. Like, you 427 00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:27.210 know, New York City is full of rats, and we humans, apex 428 00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:30.730 predators that have the technology of the of gods, 429 00:27:30.730 --> 00:27:34.090 basically, compared to rats still have not gotten rid of 430 00:27:34.090 --> 00:27:38.835 them. So it is sort of a, like, I guess, weirdly optimistic way 431 00:27:38.835 --> 00:27:42.835 to say that there are ways that censorship regimes will try to 432 00:27:42.835 --> 00:27:47.810 block VPNs, either through blocking the IP addresses 433 00:27:47.810 --> 00:27:53.490 associated with those VPN connections or by trying to look 434 00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:57.410 at sort of like Internet traffic, like your Internet 435 00:27:57.410 --> 00:28:00.450 connection to a VPN and seeing like, that looks like a VPN 436 00:28:00.450 --> 00:28:02.450 connection, and then blocking those types of connections, 437 00:28:02.825 --> 00:28:05.865 which is significantly more sophisticated. And some of the 438 00:28:05.865 --> 00:28:09.465 more sophisticated regimes out there do have that kind of 439 00:28:09.465 --> 00:28:12.585 blockage. It's a little bit, unfortunately, a little bit 440 00:28:12.585 --> 00:28:13.225 smarter. 441 00:28:13.625 --> 00:28:17.460 That being said, though, there are ways that Tor, that VPN 442 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:22.020 companies have both sort of found to mask that web traffic 443 00:28:22.020 --> 00:28:25.460 to make it look like just very normal web traffic and not like 444 00:28:25.460 --> 00:28:27.140 VPN or Tor traffic, for example. 445 00:28:27.955 --> 00:28:31.075 In your estimation, aren't VPN companies 446 00:28:31.075 --> 00:28:35.715 ever targeted by the states who are trying to circumvent their 447 00:28:35.715 --> 00:28:36.435 technology? 448 00:28:37.235 --> 00:28:41.075 Sometimes. Yeah. There are some countries which 449 00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:47.110 have laws specifically regarding VPNs and their usage. And in 450 00:28:47.110 --> 00:28:49.990 some places, it may be, like, completely illegal. In other 451 00:28:49.990 --> 00:28:52.230 countries, there's also a registration process. 452 00:28:52.230 --> 00:28:56.845 Pakistan, for example, technically kind of can allow 453 00:28:56.845 --> 00:29:01.725 you to use a VPN, but you have to tell them exactly what that 454 00:29:01.725 --> 00:29:02.365 connection is 455 00:29:02.605 --> 00:29:03.165 Uh-huh. 456 00:29:03.405 --> 00:29:07.005 Which is, of course, a little bit invasive. 457 00:29:07.005 --> 00:29:10.510 Yeah. Let's just be real. So it's it's not an ideal 458 00:29:10.510 --> 00:29:15.950 situation, but you do see sort of the sort of targeting of VPN 459 00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:18.750 access and the sort of, you know, the understanding that, 460 00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:21.555 like, this is the way people are working around it, and this is 461 00:29:21.555 --> 00:29:24.515 what we're trying to do, either block it or regulate it or, you 462 00:29:24.515 --> 00:29:25.555 know, ban it. 463 00:29:25.555 --> 00:29:28.595 Yeah. As a consumer, how do you go about 464 00:29:28.595 --> 00:29:30.035 choosing a VPN? 465 00:29:31.075 --> 00:29:34.280 Yeah. So I get this question a lot. We have a 466 00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:36.760 guide at freedom.press that kinda goes through all the 467 00:29:36.760 --> 00:29:39.880 things that we like to talk about when shopping for a VPN, 468 00:29:40.360 --> 00:29:43.160 considerations around making sure that it's actually a paid 469 00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:47.295 VPN, because many times, free VPNs are fake. They're actually 470 00:29:47.295 --> 00:29:49.695 just, like, logging that information, selling it to third 471 00:29:49.695 --> 00:29:54.495 parties, and making their money that way. It's also important to 472 00:29:54.495 --> 00:29:58.175 look at things like modern security protocols. 473 00:29:58.575 --> 00:30:01.060 Behind the scenes, kinda underneath the hood of, what 474 00:30:01.060 --> 00:30:04.180 runs a VPN, there's things like a WireGuard, pretty good 475 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:06.900 protocol to use for many situations that you may need a 476 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:11.940 VPN for. There's also a need for transparency with these tools 477 00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:15.615 just because you are entrusting them with your web traffic. So 478 00:30:15.615 --> 00:30:19.055 things like security audit reports, for example, detailed 479 00:30:19.055 --> 00:30:21.935 technical documentation of what exactly they're doing behind the 480 00:30:21.935 --> 00:30:24.895 scenes to guarantee your security. Because anybody can 481 00:30:24.895 --> 00:30:27.455 say, like, use our VPN. It's secure. 482 00:30:27.455 --> 00:30:30.220 Here's a little sticker. Here's a little graphic says secure. 483 00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:31.180 Here's a little seal. 484 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:32.620 I've seen that circle with the check mark 485 00:30:32.620 --> 00:30:33.500 inside of it. Yeah. 486 00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:35.980 Yeah. Yeah. The check mark means nothing. In 487 00:30:35.980 --> 00:30:40.540 this case, having a third party audit, like, security firm audit 488 00:30:40.780 --> 00:30:43.900 a VPN's infrastructure to make sure that it's actually doing 489 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:46.245 what it's supposed to be doing and doing so in a way that's 490 00:30:46.245 --> 00:30:50.645 secure is a massive sort of, like, green flag when it comes 491 00:30:50.645 --> 00:30:53.125 to transparency when choosing a VPN. 492 00:30:55.925 --> 00:30:59.550 What would make you feel good to, you know, be 493 00:30:59.550 --> 00:31:05.310 able to give the thumbs up to ID scanning age verification 494 00:31:05.390 --> 00:31:06.270 online? 495 00:31:08.270 --> 00:31:12.255 There's a lot that would have to be done there, 496 00:31:12.255 --> 00:31:15.935 starting with a national privacy law that I feel like lawmakers 497 00:31:15.935 --> 00:31:20.735 could maybe spend time on working on so that we can have 498 00:31:20.735 --> 00:31:23.800 some, like, legal guardrails to ensure that our data is 499 00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:27.160 protected when we upload an ID someplace and making sure that 500 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.520 the right incentives are in place to help make that happen. 501 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.245 The other thing too is, like, honestly, VPN companies offer a 502 00:31:36.245 --> 00:31:38.325 little blueprint of what that could look like in terms of 503 00:31:38.325 --> 00:31:42.405 things like having Yeah. Audits of what their infrastructure 504 00:31:42.405 --> 00:31:46.565 looks like. Are they just putting your ID photos on, like, 505 00:31:46.565 --> 00:31:51.540 an unprotected AWS s three bucket someplace? Because I have 506 00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:53.380 seen that hacked so many times. 507 00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:56.420 It's it's been ten years since I first saw that. Like, the same 508 00:31:56.420 --> 00:32:00.420 mistakes keep getting repeated over and over again and it's 509 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:05.700 it's very Wild West. But I would want to see sort of, like, more 510 00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:08.635 transparency from these companies, more legal 511 00:32:08.635 --> 00:32:12.395 protections, more guarantees, and at the national level, a 512 00:32:12.395 --> 00:32:16.075 privacy law that would sort of create that blood brain barrier 513 00:32:16.075 --> 00:32:19.755 between, like, access to that data and other parts of the 514 00:32:19.755 --> 00:32:23.500 state. For example, DHS and ICE, perhaps. 515 00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:25.900 Which gets back to what you talked about earlier 516 00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:30.780 of, like, it's not it's not necessarily that this is always 517 00:32:30.780 --> 00:32:33.660 a no go. It's that it's a lot of infrastructure to build. That, 518 00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:36.075 like, if you're gonna do it, it has to be done it has to be done 519 00:32:36.075 --> 00:32:40.395 right, and that can be hard for especially smaller websites to 520 00:32:40.395 --> 00:32:41.195 deal with. 521 00:32:41.195 --> 00:32:41.995 Yeah. Exactly. 522 00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:52.660 David, thank you so much, for joining us to chat 523 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:56.340 with us about Blue Sky and Mississippi and VPNs. We really 524 00:32:56.340 --> 00:32:57.940 appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule. 525 00:32:57.940 --> 00:32:59.540 No problem. Thanks for having me. 526 00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:01.620 If people wanna see your work online, where 527 00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:02.180 should they go? 528 00:33:03.155 --> 00:33:08.195 Freedom.press. You can search for VPNs and see all 529 00:33:08.195 --> 00:33:10.515 kinds of stuff that we've written about that as well as 530 00:33:10.515 --> 00:33:12.915 other sort of online safety and security topics. 531 00:33:21.770 --> 00:33:24.730 This is just dessert Tetris in a way. 532 00:33:24.730 --> 00:33:26.410 Yeah. It's just dessert Tetris, but with 533 00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:26.970 luchadors. 534 00:33:27.705 --> 00:33:29.545 With the Oh, interesting. 535 00:33:29.625 --> 00:33:32.905 Yeah. So we're at an impasse here. 536 00:33:33.065 --> 00:33:33.625 Okay. 537 00:33:33.625 --> 00:33:36.985 Yeah. You are. We could we could give the porquito 538 00:33:36.985 --> 00:33:39.945 to the dog and then the porquito porquito is gone. 539 00:33:40.025 --> 00:33:41.300 Yeah. I don't like 540 00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:44.180 We could. So if you don't fulfill an order 541 00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:46.900 within a certain number of turns, the order changes. 542 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:47.300 Okay. 543 00:33:47.300 --> 00:33:49.460 So we could do that but we are close to the top 544 00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:50.260 of the bag. 545 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:55.665 Yeah. This is a pivotal moment. I give the dog 546 00:33:55.665 --> 00:33:57.025 the treat. 547 00:33:58.705 --> 00:34:00.145 I don't know what this game is. 548 00:34:00.145 --> 00:34:02.385 Good. This this puppy baro. Yeah. 549 00:34:02.385 --> 00:34:04.785 Herriot has posted is very convincing. 550 00:34:05.265 --> 00:34:07.105 This is such a cute little game. 551 00:34:08.220 --> 00:34:10.300 I think doggies do deserve treats. 552 00:34:10.300 --> 00:34:10.620 But that's 553 00:34:10.700 --> 00:34:12.620 You already have a little what I'm assuming 554 00:34:12.620 --> 00:34:14.940 is what you're talking about, the Porkito. 555 00:34:15.020 --> 00:34:17.980 Oh, he did it. Oh, and it didn't He's gone. 556 00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:19.260 It didn't collapse. 557 00:34:19.900 --> 00:34:21.820 Yeah. That's a whoops. 558 00:34:22.335 --> 00:34:24.735 Yeah. I think you gotta nudge that. Oh, boy. 559 00:34:25.535 --> 00:34:27.295 Shit. He did not solve our problem. 560 00:34:27.295 --> 00:34:30.335 Oh, no. Oh, no. This is gonna this is gonna be okay. We're 561 00:34:30.335 --> 00:34:31.215 gonna get there. Yep. 562 00:34:31.215 --> 00:34:33.935 Oh. Uh-huh. What? Poor boy. We won't. 563 00:34:34.255 --> 00:34:40.280 Oh, yeah. Yeah, baby. That was so satisfying. Wow. 564 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:42.920 It's wildly Probably problem game. 565 00:34:43.960 --> 00:35:01.455 It's a new dawn. Friends, hello and welcome to 566 00:35:02.015 --> 00:35:06.495 what is going on here? A segment wherein members of the Never 567 00:35:06.495 --> 00:35:10.380 Post staff bring posts to the group about which they would 568 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:18.380 like to know what is going on here. Could they have done some 569 00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:21.665 googling? Could they have gone further down thread? 570 00:35:21.665 --> 00:35:24.945 Could they have cracked a book or gone to YouTube? Probably. 571 00:35:25.585 --> 00:35:28.785 But where is the fun in that? In the following segment, we share 572 00:35:28.785 --> 00:35:31.505 things that we found online that made us want to know more and 573 00:35:31.505 --> 00:35:34.830 about which we thought the process of finding out more 574 00:35:34.830 --> 00:35:38.670 would be more fun to do together. Joining us for this 575 00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:42.590 round of what is going on here in order of how well I assume 576 00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:45.070 they can whistle Oh. 577 00:35:45.390 --> 00:35:48.270 Ascending Oh. Are 578 00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:04.470 You're wrong. 579 00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:06.870 Never post to producer Hans Buto? 580 00:36:07.270 --> 00:36:08.870 I'm quite good at whistling. 581 00:36:08.950 --> 00:36:10.070 I believe best. 582 00:36:10.470 --> 00:36:11.990 We're gonna have to have a whistle off, aren't 583 00:36:11.990 --> 00:36:15.670 we? Yeah. Never post executive producer Jason Oberholzer. 584 00:36:16.175 --> 00:36:18.335 So I can do two different kinds of regular 585 00:36:18.335 --> 00:36:23.375 whistling. Wow. I can do the through the lips and the tongue 586 00:36:23.375 --> 00:36:26.975 to the roof of the mouth. Woah. Okay. 587 00:36:26.975 --> 00:36:28.495 I take it all back. You were right, Mike. 588 00:36:28.495 --> 00:36:31.330 You did it. You Mike nailed it. Mike nailed it. 589 00:36:31.330 --> 00:36:33.970 The bar is pretty high to have reached the 590 00:36:33.970 --> 00:36:35.250 top of the mountain here. 591 00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:35.570 Wow. 592 00:36:35.570 --> 00:36:37.170 I didn't even know that with what do you 593 00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:38.690 what's happening in there? 594 00:36:40.130 --> 00:36:41.730 That's is that out of the side of the mouth? 595 00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:44.690 Because I got I have a gap in my front teeth, so I can do the 596 00:36:45.175 --> 00:36:48.695 Oh, wow. Yeah. No. It's Bitch. Just the 597 00:36:48.695 --> 00:36:51.895 tongue compressing against the roof of the mouth. 598 00:36:52.935 --> 00:36:54.535 Oh, no. I can't do that. Yeah. 599 00:36:57.200 --> 00:36:58.640 What interesting audio this is going 600 00:36:58.640 --> 00:36:59.360 to be. Just 601 00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:01.200 just all 602 00:37:01.200 --> 00:37:02.400 the while you guys tuned in. 603 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.200 Right? I 604 00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:06.160 think of myself as a pretty good whistler. 605 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:06.240 Whistler. I 606 00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:07.440 think was gonna say, where are you? 607 00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:08.880 Yeah. Where are you in this? 608 00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:11.440 Yeah. 609 00:37:12.125 --> 00:37:13.485 I can whistle. I can do a little 610 00:37:13.485 --> 00:37:14.045 bit of Yeah. 611 00:37:14.605 --> 00:37:16.125 I can't do any of the 612 00:37:16.045 --> 00:37:17.885 The big scary whistle. 613 00:37:17.965 --> 00:37:21.005 No. Mike, how would you rate our audience? 614 00:37:21.005 --> 00:37:23.165 Audience, you tag yourself. Where are you in the 615 00:37:23.165 --> 00:37:27.270 whistle world? Okay. We got we got some we got some whistlers 616 00:37:27.270 --> 00:37:28.470 in the chat. Chat whistles. 617 00:37:28.470 --> 00:37:32.630 So for the folks listening at home, this segment, this WIGO 618 00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:37.350 segment, is being recorded live on Twitch as part of the never 619 00:37:37.350 --> 00:37:44.415 post member drive stream week. Not quite a ham horn, but good 620 00:37:44.575 --> 00:37:48.175 but nice, but good. Should we find out what's going on here? 621 00:37:48.255 --> 00:37:49.455 Yeah. Let's do it. 622 00:37:49.455 --> 00:37:50.895 Okay. Let's find out what's going on here. 623 00:37:50.975 --> 00:37:53.055 Welcome to today's game. 624 00:37:53.135 --> 00:37:54.415 Hans, who should go first? 625 00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:57.840 An audience submission that I'm quite 626 00:37:57.840 --> 00:37:59.840 excited about. I have not looked I'm not excited because I've 627 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:02.320 looked. I'm just excited because audience heck yeah. Thank you 628 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:05.920 for being here. This one is by someone named Toby. 629 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.160 Never heard of him. Don't even know. Who who could that be? 630 00:38:09.085 --> 00:38:12.045 This is taking a moment because I have to log in to Tumblr. 631 00:38:12.605 --> 00:38:14.685 Oh, yes, Toby. 632 00:38:14.685 --> 00:38:15.885 Yes. Here we are. 633 00:38:17.325 --> 00:38:20.685 Kurt Cobain will have his revenge on the 634 00:38:20.685 --> 00:38:21.565 straights. 635 00:38:21.565 --> 00:38:22.205 Yes. Yes. 636 00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:25.680 Had a video call with my brother Chuck the other 637 00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:28.400 day. Things got heavy. Okay. I'm gonna be Kate. Georgia, you be 638 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:28.960 Chuck. 639 00:38:29.040 --> 00:38:29.600 Okay. 640 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:33.840 Jason, you be Kurt Cobain. Okay. Was Kurt 641 00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:37.945 Cobain a trans woman? What? Kurt Cobain, rock musician. 642 00:38:37.945 --> 00:38:39.465 He was in a band called Nirvana. 643 00:38:39.785 --> 00:38:40.985 I'm familiar with him. 644 00:38:40.985 --> 00:38:46.185 Yes. Was he a trans woman? No. Okay. Why not? 645 00:38:46.585 --> 00:38:49.140 I mean, he wasn't. It's like asking why he 646 00:38:49.140 --> 00:38:50.180 wasn't an astronaut. 647 00:38:50.180 --> 00:38:51.860 He wasn't an astronaut because he never went 648 00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:54.260 to space. Why wasn't he a trans woman? 649 00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:56.900 Because he didn't transition. I mean, he 650 00:38:56.900 --> 00:39:00.260 didn't ever say he was a woman, didn't ever say he was trans. So 651 00:39:00.260 --> 00:39:02.260 no. Kurt Cobain wasn't a trans woman. 652 00:39:02.645 --> 00:39:05.445 So someone is trans if they say they're trans. 653 00:39:05.445 --> 00:39:06.565 Self determination. 654 00:39:07.045 --> 00:39:09.045 That's what you've told me. Is that wrong? 655 00:39:09.045 --> 00:39:11.525 No. That's right. We know ourselves better than 656 00:39:11.525 --> 00:39:14.645 anybody else can know us. If we say we're trans, nobody can say 657 00:39:14.645 --> 00:39:15.205 we aren't. 658 00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:18.650 And Kurt Cobain never said he was trans. 659 00:39:18.970 --> 00:39:20.970 So was I trans in 1994? 660 00:39:21.610 --> 00:39:22.970 I don't know. Were you? 661 00:39:22.970 --> 00:39:25.530 Yes. But if you'd asked me in 1994, I would have 662 00:39:25.530 --> 00:39:26.570 told you no. 663 00:39:27.290 --> 00:39:30.970 So if I tell you I'm trans, I'm trans. Right. 664 00:39:31.665 --> 00:39:35.425 But if I tell you I'm cis, I might still be trans? 665 00:39:35.505 --> 00:39:37.745 If you tell me you're cis, I believe you. 666 00:39:38.705 --> 00:39:41.345 That's not the same thing as I'm cis. 667 00:39:41.425 --> 00:39:44.750 That's a really good point. This is sort of what 668 00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:47.230 some queer people are getting at when they say gender is a 669 00:39:47.230 --> 00:39:47.950 construct. 670 00:39:48.510 --> 00:39:49.390 Come again? 671 00:39:49.550 --> 00:39:51.390 Well, you're cisgender. Right? 672 00:39:51.870 --> 00:39:54.030 As far as I know, yes. You 673 00:39:56.510 --> 00:40:01.335 hedged. As far as I know, isn't the same thing as 674 00:40:01.335 --> 00:40:04.215 yes. As far as I know, opens up the possibility that you could 675 00:40:04.215 --> 00:40:06.295 be trans and not know it. 676 00:40:06.935 --> 00:40:09.655 It doesn't seem terribly likely. 677 00:40:09.655 --> 00:40:11.490 That's an interesting statement. I feel 678 00:40:11.490 --> 00:40:13.730 like this is a little bit of like Phoenix. Right? This 679 00:40:14.050 --> 00:40:15.250 is wow. 680 00:40:15.250 --> 00:40:17.250 Early on in transition, one of the biggest 681 00:40:17.250 --> 00:40:19.970 problems I had was dealing with the sheer unlikelihood of my 682 00:40:19.970 --> 00:40:23.330 being trans. I mean, I knew trans people existed. I knew 683 00:40:23.330 --> 00:40:26.505 somebody had to be trans. I just couldn't wrap my head around the 684 00:40:26.505 --> 00:40:27.945 idea that it would be me. 685 00:40:28.745 --> 00:40:31.065 Do you think this is why you're on this whole 686 00:40:31.065 --> 00:40:33.465 Kurt Cobain was a trans woman kick? 687 00:40:33.545 --> 00:40:35.705 Hey, now. I'm just asking questions. 688 00:40:36.265 --> 00:40:37.545 You know? 689 00:40:37.545 --> 00:40:42.870 You know? Like JK Rowling is just asking questions. Oh my. 690 00:40:43.190 --> 00:40:45.830 Kate, you are literally wearing a T shirt that 691 00:40:45.830 --> 00:40:49.830 says Kurt Cobain was a trans woman on it right now. 692 00:40:50.150 --> 00:40:53.205 Am I? Oh, shit. I thought I was wearing my skip 693 00:40:53.205 --> 00:40:57.125 school take hormones kill god T shirt. To your question though, 694 00:40:57.125 --> 00:41:00.165 yeah, I do think that's part of it. Honestly, the hardest thing 695 00:41:00.165 --> 00:41:02.485 about growing up trans was believing that nobody in the 696 00:41:02.485 --> 00:41:04.645 world had ever experienced what I was experiencing. 697 00:41:05.060 --> 00:41:08.100 I didn't have any role models. I didn't wonder if I was the only 698 00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:10.100 one. I was convinced of it. 699 00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:13.700 So being able to say that this incredibly 700 00:41:13.700 --> 00:41:17.940 gifted songwriter, the voice of a generation was a trans woman 701 00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:18.500 like you. 702 00:41:19.025 --> 00:41:21.665 I need someone like that. I need to not be the 703 00:41:21.665 --> 00:41:22.705 first of my kind. 704 00:41:23.585 --> 00:41:25.185 Of course, you're not the first trans 705 00:41:25.185 --> 00:41:25.745 woman. 706 00:41:25.745 --> 00:41:28.305 No. But before a couple of years ago, almost 707 00:41:28.305 --> 00:41:31.105 every trans woman would tell you that they always knew 708 00:41:31.105 --> 00:41:33.665 unquestionably and innately that they were women. 709 00:41:35.130 --> 00:41:39.610 So it's not just about him being trans, but 710 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:43.930 specifically his being a trans woman who didn't know he was a 711 00:41:43.930 --> 00:41:44.730 trans woman. 712 00:41:44.730 --> 00:41:46.090 An egg. Right. 713 00:41:47.655 --> 00:41:50.935 Why Kurt Cobain anyway? What's so special about 714 00:41:50.935 --> 00:41:54.615 him that you're trying to induct him into the egg hall of fame? 715 00:41:54.615 --> 00:41:58.295 He knew things. Things cis guys don't know. 716 00:41:58.375 --> 00:42:01.360 Things I didn't know until after I started transition. He 717 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.560 understood women, what we're like, what we experience. 718 00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:08.240 Penroyalty, rape me, I just have a hard time thinking of a cis 719 00:42:08.240 --> 00:42:09.920 man who could write songs like that. 720 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:12.320 It wouldn't be the only way in which he was 721 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:13.040 exceptional. 722 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.275 True. I don't know. I mean, I know. I can give 723 00:42:17.275 --> 00:42:19.835 you all the reasons, but there's something in his eyes. 724 00:42:20.635 --> 00:42:22.555 Something in his eyes. 725 00:42:22.555 --> 00:42:24.795 All the pictures of him. No matter what he's 726 00:42:24.795 --> 00:42:28.235 doing, if he's grinning or sad, whatever he's doing, you can see 727 00:42:28.235 --> 00:42:32.460 something trapped in there. Trapped and in pain, wanting to 728 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:34.540 get out, but not quite knowing how. 729 00:42:35.580 --> 00:42:39.420 You know that what you're doing is pretty much 730 00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:41.900 the textbook definition of projection. Right? Maybe. 731 00:42:46.525 --> 00:42:48.685 Chuck, do you think I'm happier? 732 00:42:49.565 --> 00:42:52.925 Since you transitioned? Yeah. Of course. 733 00:42:53.005 --> 00:42:54.685 Absolutely. Night and day. 734 00:42:54.685 --> 00:42:57.165 Everyone says that. And honestly, I see it. 735 00:42:57.260 --> 00:42:59.420 Even in pictures. You know? I see it. 736 00:42:59.420 --> 00:43:01.900 You've seen some of my transition timelines. Right? 737 00:43:01.980 --> 00:43:03.580 You do look really different. 738 00:43:04.140 --> 00:43:06.540 It's not just me. Hans, how much longer is this? 739 00:43:06.540 --> 00:43:09.420 Oh, this is we're theoretically quarter the way 740 00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:09.900 through. 741 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.220 No way. Okay. We can. 742 00:43:13.125 --> 00:43:15.765 Okay. So let's let's let's pause it. You look 743 00:43:15.765 --> 00:43:20.085 different and scroll. Oh my god. Okay. 744 00:43:20.165 --> 00:43:20.805 Me. 745 00:43:24.485 --> 00:43:26.645 Yep. What is going on here? 746 00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:30.460 Let's read the last Are you okay? Yeah. Let's read 747 00:43:30.460 --> 00:43:32.860 from there. Let's let's having a great time. 748 00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:35.980 I think that we should finish this after 749 00:43:35.980 --> 00:43:39.665 Wiggo and release this as a member clip of the whole script. 750 00:43:39.665 --> 00:43:40.865 I love this so much. 751 00:43:40.865 --> 00:43:42.385 I can score it in everything. 752 00:43:42.385 --> 00:43:43.825 We gotta know. We gotta know. 753 00:43:43.825 --> 00:43:44.145 Yeah. 754 00:43:44.145 --> 00:43:47.345 So let's let's jump to you jump to the end here just 755 00:43:47.345 --> 00:43:47.985 so Kate, are 756 00:43:47.985 --> 00:43:51.105 you okay? Kate, are you okay? 757 00:43:51.105 --> 00:43:51.985 I'm fine. 758 00:43:52.785 --> 00:43:53.585 Do you wanna hug? 759 00:43:53.585 --> 00:43:54.305 Fuck you, Chuck. 760 00:43:55.030 --> 00:43:59.990 Okay. Well, I'm gonna go to the other room. You 761 00:43:59.990 --> 00:44:04.870 should drink some water. Stay hydrated. Love you, Kate. 762 00:44:06.630 --> 00:44:08.150 Love you too, Chuck. Sorry. 763 00:44:09.005 --> 00:44:11.405 It's okay, Kate. It's okay. 764 00:44:12.045 --> 00:44:15.245 Just dying my work, everybody. 765 00:44:15.325 --> 00:44:16.445 Wow. Wow. 766 00:44:16.445 --> 00:44:18.765 I that's unbelievable. Way to 767 00:44:18.765 --> 00:44:19.885 go. Oh my god. 768 00:44:19.885 --> 00:44:23.310 Way to go, actors. Way to go I was 769 00:44:23.310 --> 00:44:24.030 immersed. 770 00:44:23.870 --> 00:44:27.870 Writer. Wait. Okay. What is this? This is like 771 00:44:28.990 --> 00:44:30.590 it's like a philosophical, like, thought 772 00:44:30.590 --> 00:44:31.870 experiment, I feel. 773 00:44:32.110 --> 00:44:33.550 Hans, can you scroll all the way back up to 774 00:44:33.550 --> 00:44:36.430 the beginning again? Was Kurt Trans is the account 775 00:44:36.745 --> 00:44:40.825 Is the account. Okay. So let's take a look at 776 00:44:40.825 --> 00:44:42.745 comments because that's often pretty inspiring. 777 00:44:42.825 --> 00:44:44.345 Gonna say, yeah. What is in the comments? 778 00:44:44.345 --> 00:44:47.785 So we're at 11,233 replies, which 779 00:44:47.785 --> 00:44:49.065 is Sure. Yeah. 780 00:44:49.065 --> 00:44:53.160 Yeah. So I'm guessing that we just started to 781 00:44:53.160 --> 00:44:55.960 scratch the surface of what this is actually feel like we 782 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.320 need to dig all the way through. 783 00:44:57.320 --> 00:44:59.400 Yeah. Wait, Hans. Go more slowly through some of 784 00:44:59.400 --> 00:44:59.880 these. I just wanna 785 00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:00.520 read Yeah. 786 00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.805 I mean, I guess not not being privy to maybe the 787 00:45:04.805 --> 00:45:09.525 types of conversations that this conversation is meant to like, I 788 00:45:09.525 --> 00:45:12.565 guess that's a question. Like, is this a parody? Is this like 789 00:45:12.565 --> 00:45:18.680 some Poe's Law kind of thing? Is it ironic? Is it making extreme 790 00:45:19.240 --> 00:45:22.920 a more innocuous type of conversation that happens in 791 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.520 order to point out, like, the edges of it and what's weird 792 00:45:26.520 --> 00:45:27.160 about it? 793 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:28.440 I mean, yeah. 794 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:30.920 I read pretty earnest. I think this is an 795 00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:35.335 honest Socratic dialogue somebody is having who really 796 00:45:35.335 --> 00:45:37.415 believes this point, perhaps. I don't know. 797 00:45:37.415 --> 00:45:38.695 Okay. Alright. 798 00:45:38.695 --> 00:45:40.135 I I think it's less about the point and 799 00:45:40.135 --> 00:45:42.375 more about the kind of dialogue, which is 800 00:45:43.015 --> 00:45:43.335 Mhmm. 801 00:45:43.655 --> 00:45:44.935 Being mirrored here. 802 00:45:45.015 --> 00:45:47.450 Yeah. Lisby one one two one says, I was gonna 803 00:45:47.450 --> 00:45:50.330 say this is pretty standard Tumblr discourse, but actually, 804 00:45:50.490 --> 00:45:54.650 this is long even for a long form Tumblr. Oh, was Kirk O'Bain 805 00:45:54.890 --> 00:45:58.095 Gin Fizzes says, was Kirk O'Bain trans is like a big debate. He 806 00:45:58.095 --> 00:46:01.295 wore dresses and makeup and was supportive of LGBTQ stuff. Had 807 00:46:01.295 --> 00:46:02.495 no I had no clue. 808 00:46:02.655 --> 00:46:05.295 This is fantastic. Can you just scroll, like, to 809 00:46:05.295 --> 00:46:08.335 the middle? Like, the middle of the section that we didn't read 810 00:46:08.335 --> 00:46:10.815 just to I would just love to get a sense of like We're 811 00:46:10.815 --> 00:46:11.935 getting paragraphs. 812 00:46:11.935 --> 00:46:12.575 We are, like, where does 813 00:46:12.575 --> 00:46:13.615 this Let's do this one. 814 00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:16.690 Yeah. Azerad spent weeks talking to Cobain. 815 00:46:16.690 --> 00:46:19.890 He was Cobain's biographer, but also his friend, and he had his 816 00:46:19.890 --> 00:46:22.450 own interpretation of the lyrics. For instance, Azerad 817 00:46:22.450 --> 00:46:26.290 talks about all the lyrics about guns. And to me, now, I look at 818 00:46:26.290 --> 00:46:27.650 that, and I think of how he died. 819 00:46:27.795 --> 00:46:31.315 But Azerad, when Kurt was alive, he looked at it another way. He 820 00:46:31.315 --> 00:46:34.115 thought it was about dicks. To paraphrase doctor Freud, he 821 00:46:34.115 --> 00:46:37.875 says, sometimes a gun is just a gun, but not this time. He talks 822 00:46:37.875 --> 00:46:40.915 about come as you are, where Kurt keeps singing, I swear I 823 00:46:40.915 --> 00:46:43.410 don't have a gun. That's not my interpretation. 824 00:46:43.490 --> 00:46:45.970 That's never been my interpretation. That's what this 825 00:46:45.970 --> 00:46:50.130 cis man says. More than one cis man. Kurt says, Dave Grohl's 826 00:46:50.130 --> 00:46:52.610 dad, he said the same thing. Yeah. 827 00:46:52.610 --> 00:46:56.305 There are all kinds of ways to interpret lyrics. Okay. Alright. 828 00:46:56.305 --> 00:47:02.145 So this is like doing queer exegesis on both Nirvana and the 829 00:47:02.145 --> 00:47:06.465 text of Kurt Cobain's life Yeah. Together at the same time. 830 00:47:07.040 --> 00:47:09.680 And then we're going into, like, Ed Wood, Pete 831 00:47:09.680 --> 00:47:12.720 Burns, Prince Nelson, Richard Wright, Dave Carter, Quentin 832 00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:16.320 Crisp, like like, talking through the the re parsing the 833 00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:18.800 real details of of identity. 834 00:47:19.095 --> 00:47:21.255 Daniel Jenna Grauss has something really 835 00:47:21.255 --> 00:47:25.655 interesting to say. Adds a great bit of insight to this. It comes 836 00:47:25.655 --> 00:47:27.975 down to discussing whether we get to claim those who came 837 00:47:27.975 --> 00:47:30.695 before us, but didn't have access to the same theoretical 838 00:47:30.695 --> 00:47:33.460 framework and social support, the trans siblings who fell 839 00:47:33.460 --> 00:47:36.100 through the pavement because they didn't have the opportunity 840 00:47:36.100 --> 00:47:39.060 to find themselves in a world in which we were less visible and 841 00:47:39.060 --> 00:47:42.100 constrained to being more one dimensional in everyone's 842 00:47:42.100 --> 00:47:46.020 imagination. I mean, I wanna read the whole thing. 843 00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:47.220 Absolutely. 844 00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:49.615 Right? Yeah. I wanna read the whole thing. Then 845 00:47:49.615 --> 00:47:53.695 and then I wanna have an informed reaction to this. But 846 00:47:53.695 --> 00:47:54.175 woah. 847 00:47:54.175 --> 00:47:58.255 Yeah. This is wild. Yeah. Thank you, Toby. 848 00:47:58.255 --> 00:48:00.975 Toby says, oh, yes. Kurt trans woman lore. 849 00:48:00.975 --> 00:48:01.455 Yeah. 850 00:48:01.455 --> 00:48:01.935 Yes. 851 00:48:03.330 --> 00:48:05.250 Turns out that's what's going on here. Just those 852 00:48:05.250 --> 00:48:05.970 four words. 853 00:48:05.970 --> 00:48:08.450 Yep. Yep. Case closed. 854 00:48:08.450 --> 00:48:11.330 Yeah. Toby, thank you for sending this in. 855 00:48:14.130 --> 00:48:16.345 Alright. So the next one that we have is from 856 00:48:16.345 --> 00:48:18.745 May. This is a submission from May, one of our audience 857 00:48:18.745 --> 00:48:22.105 members. Thank you, May. And I'm so sorry to do this, but May is 858 00:48:22.105 --> 00:48:23.065 saying it's May's fault. 859 00:48:23.065 --> 00:48:26.105 May is sending us to Twitter. Well, I hope you all enjoyed 860 00:48:26.105 --> 00:48:27.080 having fun. 861 00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:29.800 Yeah. I'm gonna turn on both of my 862 00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.200 VPNs I'll take it from here. 863 00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:36.200 Oh, let's do it. Jarta. Alright. 864 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:43.875 We got a couple of bathing suited gentlemen What 865 00:48:43.875 --> 00:48:44.035 am I 866 00:48:44.195 --> 00:48:45.475 sharing a delicate kiss in the ocean. 867 00:48:45.475 --> 00:48:46.755 What am I looking at here? 868 00:48:46.755 --> 00:48:50.515 And it said the tweet says, Sabrina Carpenter's 869 00:48:50.515 --> 00:48:55.315 twink and Olivia Rodrigo's twink dating each other is low key the 870 00:48:55.315 --> 00:48:58.640 most iconic thing in pop culture with two sobbing faces. 871 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:00.480 You know what I've always wanted to really 872 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:02.480 ask? Chad, is this real? 873 00:49:03.120 --> 00:49:04.240 This is real? 874 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:07.520 Chad, is this real? 875 00:49:07.520 --> 00:49:11.555 So it's got 17,800,000 views for whatever 876 00:49:11.555 --> 00:49:15.395 that means on Twitter. Robots robots have 877 00:49:15.395 --> 00:49:15.955 viewed this. 878 00:49:15.955 --> 00:49:16.835 Robots can't. 879 00:49:16.835 --> 00:49:21.315 Georgia. Google. Yes. Does this mean anything to 880 00:49:21.315 --> 00:49:21.475 you? 881 00:49:22.940 --> 00:49:29.340 No. It does not. I was gonna Google Sabrina 882 00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:30.860 Carpenter twink. 883 00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:34.380 Everyone's Make sure you have a safe search on. 884 00:49:34.895 --> 00:49:36.735 Yeah. Let me turn on 885 00:49:36.655 --> 00:49:37.375 Just gonna lay on the 886 00:49:37.375 --> 00:49:41.055 ground first. An incognito window real quick. 887 00:49:41.055 --> 00:49:46.815 Hold on, everybody. Oh, Conan Gray. One of these people is 888 00:49:46.815 --> 00:49:47.375 Conan Gray. 889 00:49:47.990 --> 00:49:48.550 Say more. 890 00:49:48.550 --> 00:49:49.590 I don't know what that is. 891 00:49:49.590 --> 00:49:51.670 I don't know this person, but they look sort 892 00:49:51.670 --> 00:49:53.110 of familiar. They're 26 years old. 893 00:49:53.190 --> 00:49:54.710 Sort of familiar. I'll give them that. 894 00:49:55.270 --> 00:49:58.950 Jin physicist May in saying I'm pretty online and 895 00:49:58.950 --> 00:50:02.230 reasonably plugged into pop music, and I have no idea what 896 00:50:02.230 --> 00:50:03.270 this post is about. 897 00:50:03.675 --> 00:50:06.315 That is the spirit of the Wiggo. God, you 898 00:50:06.315 --> 00:50:08.475 nailed it. You nailed it. 899 00:50:08.475 --> 00:50:11.275 I have another AA overview. I'm so sorry. 900 00:50:11.275 --> 00:50:11.755 Do it. Do it. 901 00:50:11.755 --> 00:50:12.075 Do it. 902 00:50:12.075 --> 00:50:15.275 Did Olivia Rodrigo date Conan Gray? No. 903 00:50:16.750 --> 00:50:20.030 They are close friends who met through their shared producer, 904 00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:26.670 Dan I don't know. Their shared producer and bonded over their 905 00:50:26.670 --> 00:50:29.150 love for Taylor Swift. Their friendship has been documented 906 00:50:29.150 --> 00:50:31.470 through various social media posts, award show appearances, 907 00:50:31.470 --> 00:50:32.190 and shared experiences. 908 00:50:32.645 --> 00:50:40.725 I'm googling Conan Gray kissing. More kisses? There's more 909 00:50:40.725 --> 00:50:44.965 kisses. Just taken up pictures of people kissing. People 910 00:50:45.125 --> 00:50:45.925 kissing. 911 00:50:45.925 --> 00:50:51.420 No. We've been over this before, Jason. I will never keep stop. 912 00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:52.860 It's my news. 913 00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:56.620 I need to see it. I need to know that it's 914 00:50:56.620 --> 00:50:57.180 happening. 915 00:50:57.500 --> 00:51:00.860 Okay. So that is Corey Foglemanis. 916 00:51:02.485 --> 00:51:03.365 Excuse me? 917 00:51:03.685 --> 00:51:06.565 I don't know. I'm just so who's the guy grabbing 918 00:51:06.565 --> 00:51:10.405 Conan? Is one of the replies. Oh. And then the response is 919 00:51:10.405 --> 00:51:13.525 Corey Foglemanis, which I'm sure I'm saying wrong. 920 00:51:13.525 --> 00:51:16.570 Confer, I'm looking at more kissing photos. 921 00:51:16.570 --> 00:51:17.290 Boy. It's kinda 922 00:51:17.290 --> 00:51:18.010 true. Okay. 923 00:51:18.010 --> 00:51:19.290 Do it. Do it. Do it. Yeah. 924 00:51:19.290 --> 00:51:23.210 Are those Corey Fogelmanis and Conan Gray. I 925 00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:28.915 Google image searched them, like, those two names. Lots of 926 00:51:28.915 --> 00:51:30.195 kissing photos. 927 00:51:30.515 --> 00:51:32.115 More important, are those bathing 928 00:51:32.115 --> 00:51:32.835 jorts? 929 00:51:33.635 --> 00:51:35.555 Also, this the waves look beautiful. 930 00:51:35.555 --> 00:51:37.475 They look I was just thinking, Georgia. They 931 00:51:37.475 --> 00:51:38.355 look beautiful. 932 00:51:38.595 --> 00:51:39.955 This has to be fake. 933 00:51:39.955 --> 00:51:42.035 Right? I no. That's what I mean is, like, the 934 00:51:42.035 --> 00:51:47.160 water looks so, like, airbrushed sort of. 935 00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:48.040 Yeah. 936 00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:51.400 One of the replies way down thread is there 937 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:55.160 are sentences being created that have never been created before. 938 00:51:57.945 --> 00:52:00.905 Think that's so kissing photos. 939 00:52:01.225 --> 00:52:04.585 George George, we're at work. 940 00:52:04.585 --> 00:52:08.745 They're they're kissing all over the place. 941 00:52:09.385 --> 00:52:12.910 There is as as it will surprise nobody, there is 942 00:52:12.910 --> 00:52:17.070 no information to be gleaned from the reply thread on x.com, 943 00:52:17.070 --> 00:52:21.470 the everything website. Yeah. This has this I'm I'm gonna say 944 00:52:21.470 --> 00:52:27.625 my best guess is that this is AI. This is it possible? Hold 945 00:52:27.625 --> 00:52:28.105 on. 946 00:52:28.105 --> 00:52:31.225 I I might I might have an answer. 947 00:52:32.105 --> 00:52:32.585 There's probably 948 00:52:32.585 --> 00:52:35.865 some guess that this is a frame from a music 949 00:52:35.865 --> 00:52:37.385 video. Really? 950 00:52:37.385 --> 00:52:39.065 Or a show. I think they're on a show 951 00:52:39.065 --> 00:52:39.385 together. 952 00:52:39.740 --> 00:52:41.580 Yeah. Here. I'm not I haven't watched it yet, 953 00:52:41.580 --> 00:52:44.060 but I'm gonna drop it in the chat. Uh-oh. 954 00:52:44.620 --> 00:52:47.020 Always good. Oh, no. They're I see. He's in 955 00:52:47.020 --> 00:52:47.660 jorts. 956 00:52:47.660 --> 00:52:48.860 Baca Cranberry. 957 00:52:48.860 --> 00:52:50.860 Woah. Desire is kissing pants. 958 00:52:50.860 --> 00:52:54.865 This is the song. I have heard of this song. 959 00:52:54.865 --> 00:52:57.745 So here is the link that I found it through. 960 00:52:59.825 --> 00:53:05.200 Pinknews.com. Fans left quote devastated after Conan Gray 961 00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:07.680 drops part two of his queer music video romance. 962 00:53:08.240 --> 00:53:09.840 Devastating. Come on. 963 00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:12.800 Has two videos where he kisses a boy in the 964 00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:13.360 water. 965 00:53:13.600 --> 00:53:14.880 Good. There should be 966 00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:16.320 more of them. Stay, dude. 967 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:20.240 I need at least a dozen. Oh. 968 00:53:20.385 --> 00:53:22.305 That's what's going on here. 969 00:53:22.305 --> 00:53:26.625 Woah. That's what's going on here. Wow. Okay. 970 00:53:26.625 --> 00:53:26.865 So 971 00:53:27.025 --> 00:53:27.745 Gonna close 972 00:53:27.745 --> 00:53:30.225 a bunch of because I still do not know who 973 00:53:30.225 --> 00:53:31.105 these people are. 974 00:53:31.825 --> 00:53:32.705 And you don't get to. 975 00:53:33.220 --> 00:53:35.700 Which one of them so what I am to understand is 976 00:53:35.700 --> 00:53:39.780 that one of them did they date these other pop stars? One of 977 00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:42.260 them dated Sabrina Carpenter, and one of them dated Olivia 978 00:53:42.260 --> 00:53:43.060 Rodrigo. 979 00:53:43.060 --> 00:53:45.060 And They might no. I think they're both friends 980 00:53:45.060 --> 00:53:47.060 with those respected pop divas. 981 00:53:47.505 --> 00:53:49.665 Pop series. Look like them? 982 00:53:50.385 --> 00:53:52.225 No. Or that they're pals and they're gay? 983 00:53:52.225 --> 00:53:53.985 They're just they're friends and they're gay 984 00:53:53.985 --> 00:53:55.345 and they're twinks and they're in love. 985 00:53:55.345 --> 00:53:56.465 Okay. Okay. 986 00:53:56.465 --> 00:53:57.745 Tale as old as time. 987 00:53:57.825 --> 00:53:58.785 Tale as old as time. 988 00:53:58.785 --> 00:54:02.570 Well, mate, I we hope that's satisfying because 989 00:54:02.570 --> 00:54:03.690 that's what we know. 990 00:54:03.690 --> 00:54:07.770 And if if you would like hours of tape of 991 00:54:07.770 --> 00:54:12.010 Georgia making typing sounds and saying, I'm finding more 992 00:54:12.010 --> 00:54:12.730 kissing, 993 00:54:12.810 --> 00:54:14.085 do you need ring tones 994 00:54:14.085 --> 00:54:16.405 because maybe we got them? 995 00:54:17.685 --> 00:54:21.125 Listen. I will risk it all for journalism 996 00:54:21.525 --> 00:54:25.845 always. I will get to the bottom of it Yeah. One way or another. 997 00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:26.100 I will 998 00:54:26.100 --> 00:54:28.420 get in for of the kissing on the end 999 00:54:28.420 --> 00:54:29.380 of kissing. 1000 00:54:30.020 --> 00:54:32.100 Georgia will reach the end of it. 1001 00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:34.580 I will I will shut it down. 1002 00:54:37.460 --> 00:54:40.505 Wow. I feel like I know what's going on here. 1003 00:54:48.505 --> 00:54:51.625 Hey, friends. It's Mike here on my way to the studio letting you 1004 00:54:51.625 --> 00:54:55.610 know that if you wanna hear the rest of this WIGO, we are gonna 1005 00:54:55.610 --> 00:55:00.650 be putting it up for members at neverpoe.st. A bunch of us on 1006 00:55:00.650 --> 00:55:02.890 the staff also had WIGOs to share. 1007 00:55:02.970 --> 00:55:07.175 They're very funny, very strange. One picture that just 1008 00:55:07.175 --> 00:55:10.695 looks disconcertingly like a thumb. So if you wanna see that, 1009 00:55:10.695 --> 00:55:15.255 just head on over to neverpo.st. Become a member, and it will be 1010 00:55:15.255 --> 00:55:17.575 waiting for you in the member feed soon. 1011 00:55:38.265 --> 00:55:42.265 Yes. Yes. This is what I wanted. Yes. This 1012 00:55:42.265 --> 00:55:45.065 is everything that I wanted. 1013 00:55:45.385 --> 00:55:48.265 Yes. Yes. Never stop. Yes. Yes. 1014 00:55:48.505 --> 00:55:48.745 Yes. 1015 00:55:58.370 --> 00:56:01.090 Why did we stop doing this? I know you're 1016 00:56:01.090 --> 00:56:03.170 supposed to think this about things that were good when you 1017 00:56:03.170 --> 00:56:07.745 were a kid, but like This slaps. Yeah. This is so This 1018 00:56:07.745 --> 00:56:10.065 objectively slaps. Right? 1019 00:56:16.465 --> 00:56:19.585 That is the show we have for you this week. We're gonna be back 1020 00:56:19.585 --> 00:56:23.590 here in the main feed on Wednesday, September 10. 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And with it, knowledge that you are 1036 00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:19.160 supporting the creation of independent, employee owned, 1037 00:57:19.160 --> 00:57:23.320 community supported media and technology criticism that is not 1038 00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:29.645 afraid to say the things that no one else will. Things like two 1039 00:57:29.645 --> 00:57:32.445 piece stress relief toy silicone stress relief toy stress 1040 00:57:32.445 --> 00:57:35.085 relieving furball ultra soft decompression venting toy 1041 00:57:35.085 --> 00:57:39.725 perfect for stress and anxiety relaxing toy bulk. Become a 1042 00:57:39.725 --> 00:57:42.070 member. Neverpo dot s t. 1043 00:57:44.390 --> 00:57:47.430 Neverpoast's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, 1044 00:57:47.430 --> 00:57:50.470 and the mysterious doctor first name, last name. Our senior 1045 00:57:50.470 --> 00:57:53.510 producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason 1046 00:57:53.510 --> 00:57:57.435 Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. 1047 00:57:57.915 --> 00:58:02.875 Reader unmoved and reader unshaken, reader unseduced and 1048 00:58:02.875 --> 00:58:08.870 unterrified, through the long, loud, and sweet still, I creep 1049 00:58:08.870 --> 00:58:13.350 toward you. Towards you, I thistle and I climb. 1050 00:58:13.910 --> 00:58:18.150 I crawl, reader, servile and servine through this blank 1051 00:58:18.150 --> 00:58:25.245 season counting. I sleep and I sleep. I sleep reader toward you 1052 00:58:25.485 --> 00:58:35.005 loud as a cloud and deaf reader deaf as a leaf. Excerpt of sweet 1053 00:58:35.005 --> 00:58:42.900 reader flanneled and told by Olena Kalitiak Davis. Never Post 1054 00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:47.140 is a production of Charts and Leisure and is distributed by 1055 00:58:47.140 --> 00:58:47.940 Radiotopia.