WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.137 --> 00:00:06.573 Which is to say, we gotta practice. 2 00:00:06.573 --> 00:00:08.308 We've got to exercise those muscles. 3 00:00:08.308 --> 00:00:12.212 If you want to be good at free throws, shoot 10,000 free throws. 4 00:00:12.212 --> 00:00:15.815 If you want to be good at conversations around division, 5 00:00:16.082 --> 00:00:19.986 you gotta have a bunch of conversations around division. 6 00:00:19.986 --> 00:00:23.056 And when when those muscles are weak. 7 00:00:23.056 --> 00:00:26.059 And I really think collectively they are weak. 8 00:00:26.059 --> 00:00:29.062 And I think we just have to practice those conversations. 9 00:00:32.699 --> 00:00:33.500 I'm J.R. 10 00:00:33.500 --> 00:00:34.300 Jamison. 11 00:00:34.300 --> 00:00:37.837 Today on the Facing Project, I sit down with award winning photographer, 12 00:00:37.837 --> 00:00:41.908 author, and peace activist John Noltner to talk about photography 13 00:00:41.908 --> 00:00:46.046 as a form of storytelling that explores the common humanity that unites us. 14 00:00:46.346 --> 00:00:49.082 And we discuss his latest book, Lessons on the Road 15 00:00:49.082 --> 00:00:53.820 to Peace, that covers his 45,000 mile journey across the US. 16 00:00:54.254 --> 00:00:57.424 Stay with us. 17 00:00:57.424 --> 00:01:02.996 [Theme music] 18 00:01:03.063 --> 00:01:08.568 This season, I'm doing something a little different to mix up our format. 19 00:01:08.935 --> 00:01:10.036 I’ll still share stories 20 00:01:10.036 --> 00:01:13.973 from past Facing Projects to shine a light on specific topics and issues. 21 00:01:14.407 --> 00:01:18.278 But also, I'll sit down for long form interviews with business executives, 22 00:01:18.278 --> 00:01:21.414 bestselling authors, filmmakers, and other artists 23 00:01:21.414 --> 00:01:24.551 who are using their platforms to make the world a more understanding 24 00:01:24.851 --> 00:01:28.621 and empathetic place, asking each of them the same question: 25 00:01:29.189 --> 00:01:34.127 How do we create a more empathetic world in a time when listening has decreased 26 00:01:34.394 --> 00:01:38.031 and each person's message is competing with millions of others? 27 00:01:38.731 --> 00:01:42.902 Today's guest is John Noltner, an award winning photographer, author, 28 00:01:42.902 --> 00:01:47.607 and peace activist who has spent the past 15 years collecting photos 29 00:01:47.907 --> 00:01:51.678 and narratives from around the world while asking each participant 30 00:01:51.811 --> 00:01:55.982 a few guiding questions, such as: What does peace mean to you? 31 00:01:56.182 --> 00:01:58.685 And what gives you hope? 32 00:01:58.685 --> 00:02:01.855 These photos and narratives lead to displays in communities 33 00:02:01.855 --> 00:02:06.359 where people can literally see how they and their neighbors answered, often 34 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:11.131 transpiring into deeper discussions around commonalities rather than differences. 35 00:02:11.798 --> 00:02:15.101 In 2020, John and his wife Karen sold their home 36 00:02:15.101 --> 00:02:18.638 and took off in a travel trailer, and eventually only a van, 37 00:02:18.805 --> 00:02:22.342 to dedicate more time and energy to collect these narratives, 38 00:02:22.509 --> 00:02:26.412 that has led to John's latest book, Lessons on the Road to Peace. 39 00:02:27.413 --> 00:02:29.449 John Noltner, award winning photographer, 40 00:02:29.449 --> 00:02:31.818 author and founder of A Peace of My Mind, 41 00:02:31.818 --> 00:02:33.720 thank you for joining me on The Facing Project. 42 00:02:33.720 --> 00:02:35.155 Thanks for having me, J.R.. 43 00:02:35.155 --> 00:02:38.258 At heart, you're a storyteller and the work you now 44 00:02:38.258 --> 00:02:41.928 do is multi-media, but the basis is photography. 45 00:02:42.529 --> 00:02:46.032 What is it about photography that tells a deeper story? 46 00:02:46.065 --> 00:02:47.534 Take me back to your roots. 47 00:02:47.534 --> 00:02:51.771 So my degree was in journalism in storytelling. 48 00:02:51.771 --> 00:02:55.742 But my storytelling has often happened visually. 49 00:02:56.176 --> 00:02:58.478 And I spent, 50 00:02:58.478 --> 00:03:01.247 I spent 20 years as a freelance photographer, 51 00:03:01.247 --> 00:03:04.517 shooting for national magazines and fortune 500 companies 52 00:03:04.517 --> 00:03:09.656 and, man, I am just in love with the still image. 53 00:03:10.089 --> 00:03:13.793 You know, there's something about a still image that captures a moment 54 00:03:13.793 --> 00:03:18.331 and allows you to study it and reflect on it 55 00:03:19.065 --> 00:03:22.635 in a way that we don't get to do in our day to day lives 56 00:03:23.303 --> 00:03:26.973 in, in a way that's inappropriate to do in our day to day lives, 57 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.076 sometimes, to really be able to look 58 00:03:30.076 --> 00:03:33.112 and study this moment. 59 00:03:34.914 --> 00:03:36.482 You know, our world is fleeting 60 00:03:36.482 --> 00:03:41.154 and our input, is constantly coming at us from every direction. 61 00:03:41.154 --> 00:03:45.391 But to capture that moment in a still photograph 62 00:03:45.391 --> 00:03:49.562 is, is a process that I've been in love with for all of my life. 63 00:03:50.763 --> 00:03:53.900 Do you find when you, I mean, the work that you do 64 00:03:53.900 --> 00:03:56.970 now is is a little different, I mean, still based on photography. 65 00:03:56.970 --> 00:03:59.672 And we'll talk a little more about that here in a moment. 66 00:03:59.672 --> 00:04:04.043 But do you find when you take photographs not related to the work that you do 67 00:04:04.043 --> 00:04:08.081 with A Peace of, of My Mind, do you find that 68 00:04:08.081 --> 00:04:11.618 you're telling a story in your head as you take these photos? 69 00:04:13.519 --> 00:04:15.388 [laughter] Yeah, all the time. 70 00:04:15.388 --> 00:04:19.292 It's, the camera is an extension of me, 71 00:04:19.659 --> 00:04:24.264 and it's also my excuse to explore the world. 72 00:04:24.631 --> 00:04:30.370 Yeah, maybe not excuse, but it's my, it's my process for exploring the world. 73 00:04:30.370 --> 00:04:33.740 And so when I'm taking pictures, 74 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:37.076 it's helping me to look at things more closely. 75 00:04:37.076 --> 00:04:40.413 And it's helping me to notice subtle nuances in light 76 00:04:40.413 --> 00:04:43.816 and composition and the interaction between people. 77 00:04:43.816 --> 00:04:48.788 And it is, it's an inactive observer status. 78 00:04:49.222 --> 00:04:53.926 And so it's, it's a nonstop running commentary. 79 00:04:53.926 --> 00:04:58.498 And my wife Karen will joke sometimes if we're going out on a hike, 80 00:04:59.432 --> 00:05:00.967 together 81 00:05:00.967 --> 00:05:04.604 and I'm debating whether I should bring my camera or not, she's like, “Oh, 82 00:05:04.604 --> 00:05:09.275 please bring my bring your camera because you'll be agonizing 83 00:05:09.442 --> 00:05:12.412 at the lack of process if you don't get it.” 84 00:05:12.712 --> 00:05:16.582 So, yeah, it has become an extension of who I am. 85 00:05:16.783 --> 00:05:20.687 What was it about that reflective process 86 00:05:20.687 --> 00:05:26.025 of doing your own photography as an independent photographer? 87 00:05:26.025 --> 00:05:27.360 Right? 88 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.997 And also doing your own photography as a person with your family 89 00:05:30.997 --> 00:05:32.332 and kind of reflecting on these 90 00:05:32.332 --> 00:05:35.435 own stories as you're capturing these, these stills, right? 91 00:05:36.069 --> 00:05:39.706 What was it about that process that led you to say, 92 00:05:39.772 --> 00:05:43.443 “Ah, there's something here,” which then became A Peace of My Mind? 93 00:05:45.011 --> 00:05:48.414 Oh, yeah, that's a great question. 94 00:05:48.448 --> 00:05:52.952 I, as a as an assignment photographer, 95 00:05:53.419 --> 00:05:58.324 the routine is that somebody approaches you and offers you money to 96 00:05:58.624 --> 00:06:02.528 to photograph the assignment that they're interested in. 97 00:06:02.595 --> 00:06:04.697 And I felt like, 98 00:06:05.732 --> 00:06:06.165 well, and 99 00:06:06.165 --> 00:06:10.903 I love that process because I got to go to photograph a spa in Chicago 100 00:06:10.903 --> 00:06:15.842 and a rainforest research station in Costa Rica and, you know, 101 00:06:16.609 --> 00:06:20.012 pediatric hospitals to tell the stories of doctors 102 00:06:20.012 --> 00:06:23.015 and just this fascinating, wonderful stuff. 103 00:06:24.450 --> 00:06:28.788 But I felt like I was responding to somebody else's request all the time 104 00:06:29.188 --> 00:06:33.726 waiting for that call to come in, which would then trigger action. 105 00:06:34.827 --> 00:06:37.697 In that process, I came to see 106 00:06:37.697 --> 00:06:40.967 sort of that beauty and wisdom that's all around us, wherever I was 107 00:06:40.967 --> 00:06:43.970 photographing people, and I started to realize that 108 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:47.573 I had something I wanted to say about the world, too. 109 00:06:47.940 --> 00:06:51.644 It wasn't just about responding to what somebody else wanted to say and 110 00:06:51.844 --> 00:06:57.383 and fulfilling an assignment and capturing those images, but to be able 111 00:06:57.383 --> 00:07:01.287 to sort of offer my vision to the world and bring that bigger view. 112 00:07:02.121 --> 00:07:03.723 That, that really 113 00:07:04.824 --> 00:07:06.292 planted the seed 114 00:07:06.292 --> 00:07:09.962 and the desire for me to do a long term project of my own. 115 00:07:11.464 --> 00:07:14.033 In the early days of your work, when you started 116 00:07:14.033 --> 00:07:17.837 A Peace of My Mind back in 2009, correct? 117 00:07:18.604 --> 00:07:24.143 In those early days you would ask participants a question, and that was, 118 00:07:24.143 --> 00:07:27.880 “What does peace mean to you?” Which seems like such a simple question. 119 00:07:27.880 --> 00:07:30.550 But that simple question is really deep. 120 00:07:30.550 --> 00:07:33.252 And on your site, I mean, if folks go 121 00:07:33.252 --> 00:07:37.423 and they read through these narratives, they're they're deep, these quotes. 122 00:07:37.423 --> 00:07:39.859 So turning the tables a bit. 123 00:07:39.859 --> 00:07:42.862 What does peace mean to you? 124 00:07:43.830 --> 00:07:44.263 Yeah. 125 00:07:44.263 --> 00:07:47.900 For me peace is a 126 00:07:48.901 --> 00:07:50.570 collective pursuit. 127 00:07:50.570 --> 00:07:54.841 I mean, we can talk about the notion of negative peace, which is the 128 00:07:55.808 --> 00:07:57.844 absence of war and the absence 129 00:07:57.844 --> 00:08:00.947 of violence and, and the absence of oppression. 130 00:08:00.947 --> 00:08:04.383 And in a certain sense, that's, that's like the lowest bar, right? 131 00:08:04.383 --> 00:08:07.286 That we got to at least get there. 132 00:08:07.286 --> 00:08:10.890 But I'm also fascinated by this notion of positive peace. 133 00:08:11.657 --> 00:08:14.527 Which is to create the environment 134 00:08:14.527 --> 00:08:19.332 where all people can thrive, where people have the opportunity 135 00:08:19.332 --> 00:08:22.502 to have meaning and purpose and connection in their lives. 136 00:08:22.702 --> 00:08:25.771 And for me, that that sense of peace, 137 00:08:26.038 --> 00:08:30.309 I mean, this is almost rooted in Doctor King's notion of beloved community, right? 138 00:08:30.343 --> 00:08:34.247 Those people around you who who you're connected to, 139 00:08:34.247 --> 00:08:37.650 whether you see it on a day to day basis or not. 140 00:08:38.651 --> 00:08:40.953 And, and and so for me, this 141 00:08:40.953 --> 00:08:44.557 sense of peace is not just a personal pursuit. 142 00:08:44.824 --> 00:08:47.727 Right? I'm not.... 143 00:08:47.727 --> 00:08:50.429 If all of my needs are taken care 144 00:08:50.429 --> 00:08:54.300 of, that brings me a certain level of peace. 145 00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:57.303 But it's not until all those people around me 146 00:08:57.336 --> 00:09:03.142 also have that level of needs being met and opportunities 147 00:09:03.142 --> 00:09:06.212 available, that, that I really achieve sort 148 00:09:06.212 --> 00:09:09.215 of my collective sense of peace. 149 00:09:09.415 --> 00:09:11.117 I love that idea. 150 00:09:11.117 --> 00:09:15.021 You know, when I think of peace myself, I've- 151 00:09:15.021 --> 00:09:16.789 And this seems really selfish, I guess, 152 00:09:16.789 --> 00:09:19.792 but I've never really thought about those around me. 153 00:09:19.926 --> 00:09:22.562 I guess maybe I have, like, when I think about peace, it's 154 00:09:22.562 --> 00:09:25.531 the first part of, of, of your response, where it's 155 00:09:25.731 --> 00:09:28.734 more of, if people can live authentically. 156 00:09:28.968 --> 00:09:31.871 But I love how simple that question is, but it makes people 157 00:09:31.871 --> 00:09:34.874 think, and I imagine that every response is different. 158 00:09:35.007 --> 00:09:37.743 Well, when I started this project, 159 00:09:37.743 --> 00:09:40.947 I thought I'd maybe do a couple dozen interviews 160 00:09:40.947 --> 00:09:43.382 and then we would run out of things to say. 161 00:09:43.382 --> 00:09:46.385 [Laughs] We would have exhausted the conversation. 162 00:09:46.552 --> 00:09:50.623 But in fact, I've done hundreds of these interviews now, and, 163 00:09:50.623 --> 00:09:57.163 and people always bring new experience and new new personal insights 164 00:09:57.163 --> 00:10:00.900 into these conversations based on how they've traveled through life 165 00:10:00.900 --> 00:10:04.470 and who they've encountered and the situations in front of them. 166 00:10:05.004 --> 00:10:09.308 You know, I've, I've come to call that question, “What is peace 167 00:10:09.308 --> 00:10:12.311 mean to you?” I've come to call that my gateway question. 168 00:10:12.511 --> 00:10:15.848 Because it really just opens an opportunity for people 169 00:10:15.848 --> 00:10:20.186 to talk about what's on their hearts, to really dig deep and share 170 00:10:20.419 --> 00:10:23.823 mission, vision and values in the, in the world. 171 00:10:24.123 --> 00:10:29.095 And I mean, I've, I've, I've met people from all different backgrounds 172 00:10:29.095 --> 00:10:32.298 and I, I have yet to meet somebody who wouldn't welcome 173 00:10:32.298 --> 00:10:35.534 a little bit more peace into their lives, whether it's they, 174 00:10:36.335 --> 00:10:40.473 you know, their immediate family or their their neighborhood or the bigger world. 175 00:10:40.873 --> 00:10:43.776 You know, even my friends who serve in the US military, 176 00:10:43.776 --> 00:10:46.746 I think would prefer to stay home with their families when they could. 177 00:10:47.847 --> 00:10:49.015 So so it's this great 178 00:10:49.015 --> 00:10:52.952 equalizer in this incredibly polarized world that we live in. 179 00:10:53.786 --> 00:10:58.557 It is an opportunity to find common ground and start the conversation there 180 00:10:58.557 --> 00:11:01.560 so that people can can share what's on their hearts. 181 00:11:01.927 --> 00:11:04.230 And we call this bridge building. 182 00:11:04.230 --> 00:11:06.599 You and I both work in bridge building movements 183 00:11:06.599 --> 00:11:09.201 and some folks are like, “What is bridge building?” 184 00:11:09.201 --> 00:11:13.005 But the work that we do really is bringing people together in unexpected ways 185 00:11:13.005 --> 00:11:17.777 that maybe don't always agree or have different opinions about the world. 186 00:11:17.777 --> 00:11:22.014 But that very simple question brings people together. 187 00:11:23.349 --> 00:11:25.251 You've traveled all over the world. 188 00:11:25.251 --> 00:11:28.087 You've been to communities both large and small. 189 00:11:28.087 --> 00:11:31.891 What themes are you seeing from these dialogs? 190 00:11:33.426 --> 00:11:33.726 All right. 191 00:11:33.726 --> 00:11:35.761 I'm going to answer that question in just a minute. 192 00:11:35.761 --> 00:11:36.996 But first I'm going to share. 193 00:11:36.996 --> 00:11:40.066 [Laughs] You said the word bridge building and I just want to- 194 00:11:40.266 --> 00:11:41.734 There's a funny story. 195 00:11:41.734 --> 00:11:44.437 My last book came out. 196 00:11:44.437 --> 00:11:47.406 This is the way Amazon and the algorithms work, right? 197 00:11:47.406 --> 00:11:51.043 And I entered in the keywords “bridge building,” 198 00:11:52.144 --> 00:11:52.578 and then I 199 00:11:52.578 --> 00:11:56.582 also entered into the keywords, “photography,” and some other things. 200 00:11:56.582 --> 00:11:59.685 And when Amazon, when my book went for sale, 201 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:04.256 I was listed as number one in “photography of bridges.” Jamison: Oh, no! 202 00:12:04.256 --> 00:12:05.858 [Laughter] 203 00:12:05.858 --> 00:12:08.994 I'm like, that's not the category I belong in! 204 00:12:08.994 --> 00:12:12.064 [Laughing continues] Jamison: But just think about all the people who maybe 205 00:12:12.064 --> 00:12:15.334 found your book that way, who love actual bridges 206 00:12:15.334 --> 00:12:18.337 and maybe it opened their mind in different ways, right? 207 00:12:18.471 --> 00:12:19.672 All three of them, in fact! 208 00:12:19.672 --> 00:12:21.440 [Laughter] 209 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:24.643 So, this is the world we live in. 210 00:12:24.710 --> 00:12:31.217 But, yeah, you asked about some of the themes that I'm seeing, and, 211 00:12:31.217 --> 00:12:34.320 you know, everywhere that I go, 212 00:12:35.154 --> 00:12:38.624 I see a desire for people 213 00:12:38.624 --> 00:12:41.627 to feel seen and heard 214 00:12:42.828 --> 00:12:44.196 and valued. 215 00:12:44.196 --> 00:12:49.769 You know, there are so many instances in our lives where that doesn't happen, 216 00:12:50.102 --> 00:12:53.072 where we don't feel affirmed, where we don't feel recognized, 217 00:12:53.072 --> 00:12:56.542 where we don't feel like our authentic selves are are honored. 218 00:12:56.542 --> 00:12:59.578 And there's there's all sorts of negative 219 00:12:59.578 --> 00:13:02.581 stuff that ripples out from that struggle. 220 00:13:02.715 --> 00:13:09.121 And when that is present, it's remarkable to me 221 00:13:09.555 --> 00:13:14.393 how well people can navigate all of these other hurdles and struggles in the world, 222 00:13:14.393 --> 00:13:18.264 that, if we just have a sense of of being seen and heard 223 00:13:18.531 --> 00:13:22.434 and valued, a whole bunch of good stuff can ripple out from that. 224 00:13:23.102 --> 00:13:26.872 What another thing I see is this this deep desire for connection, 225 00:13:27.506 --> 00:13:30.509 you know, and I think especially during the, 226 00:13:30.543 --> 00:13:35.347 the pandemic, we we lost a lot of our natural connections. 227 00:13:35.347 --> 00:13:39.685 And I worry sometimes that we've settled into a newer, lower 228 00:13:39.685 --> 00:13:42.688 expectation for what those connections can be. 229 00:13:42.755 --> 00:13:45.758 And part of what I hope A Peace of My Mind can do 230 00:13:46.392 --> 00:13:49.995 is to help communities and individuals re-learn 231 00:13:50.496 --> 00:13:54.667 some of those processes of connection, re-invigorate 232 00:13:54.667 --> 00:13:59.338 some of those muscles and exercise them so that we can build those skills. 233 00:13:59.371 --> 00:13:59.972 I hope 234 00:14:01.140 --> 00:14:02.041 if anything out of 235 00:14:02.041 --> 00:14:06.078 the pandemic, we can hold on to the thoughts 236 00:14:06.078 --> 00:14:09.415 that we are all a little bit 237 00:14:09.415 --> 00:14:13.652 more connected than we ever understood, and that we're 238 00:14:13.652 --> 00:14:18.958 all more deeply vulnerable than we ever really recognized. 239 00:14:19.091 --> 00:14:22.494 You know, if we could hold those two things in 240 00:14:23.229 --> 00:14:27.733 our interactions as we go through communal life, it just feels like 241 00:14:27.733 --> 00:14:30.803 we could make more space and grace for one another. 242 00:14:32.271 --> 00:14:35.274 We are living during a time where it seems like 243 00:14:35.708 --> 00:14:39.645 we're the most divided we've been in quite some time. 244 00:14:39.678 --> 00:14:43.616 I think, I argue, sometimes social media obviously plays a big part of that, 245 00:14:43.983 --> 00:14:46.318 because the algorithms, as you were talking about, 246 00:14:46.318 --> 00:14:48.754 it puts us into different categories, right? 247 00:14:48.754 --> 00:14:50.456 We're lumped into silos at times. 248 00:14:50.456 --> 00:14:53.459 So we don't often see other point of views. 249 00:14:53.792 --> 00:14:57.830 And when we do see those other point of views, we're so used to being 250 00:14:57.830 --> 00:15:03.102 in our own camp that it almost becomes like fight or flight in many ways. 251 00:15:04.503 --> 00:15:06.605 In your opinion, what do you think is holding 252 00:15:06.605 --> 00:15:09.775 people back from making these connections across divides? 253 00:15:11.944 --> 00:15:14.480 I think 254 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.250 that we're afraid of doing it wrong. 255 00:15:19.018 --> 00:15:24.089 I think so often it's been modeled for us that if you launch into these difficult 256 00:15:24.089 --> 00:15:29.461 spaces that you will encounter pain, and then you'll, you'll encounter 257 00:15:29.728 --> 00:15:34.466 some sort of, you know, negative reaction. 258 00:15:34.466 --> 00:15:37.603 And I think people are concerned about that. 259 00:15:37.603 --> 00:15:40.739 I think that there's a lot of pride 260 00:15:40.973 --> 00:15:44.109 that gets in the way of being vulnerable. 261 00:15:44.910 --> 00:15:47.279 You know, confirmation bias tells us 262 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.749 that we will look for all of the evidence that proves that we're right, 263 00:15:50.749 --> 00:15:55.688 and we will work overtime to ignore anything that refutes our position. 264 00:15:55.988 --> 00:15:59.491 And there's a lot of pride that's, that's mixed up into that. 265 00:15:59.892 --> 00:16:01.093 I think that we, 266 00:16:02.695 --> 00:16:05.264 I mean, life is full and life is busy 267 00:16:05.264 --> 00:16:08.667 and we we've got to sort of keep moving forward in some way. 268 00:16:09.168 --> 00:16:12.171 And I think we develop these 269 00:16:12.171 --> 00:16:15.174 these methodologies where we try to hold, 270 00:16:15.441 --> 00:16:19.278 we try to push back on anything that's going to make us uncomfortable 271 00:16:19.611 --> 00:16:20.245 or anything 272 00:16:20.245 --> 00:16:24.249 that's going to make us vulnerable or anything that's going to make us, 273 00:16:24.249 --> 00:16:27.953 you know, have to have to struggle a little bit more in a different way. 274 00:16:27.953 --> 00:16:33.926 And I think, in that process, we believe that we're protecting ourselves. 275 00:16:34.126 --> 00:16:38.097 But in fact, I believe that in that process, 276 00:16:38.097 --> 00:16:42.167 we're insulating ourselves from the very best of what human 277 00:16:42.568 --> 00:16:45.571 engagement and experience and connection can be. 278 00:16:45.871 --> 00:16:50.809 And so I think it needs to be a willful choice to 279 00:16:51.877 --> 00:16:53.479 reach across those divides. 280 00:16:53.479 --> 00:16:57.950 It needs to be an intentional act to not launch 281 00:16:57.950 --> 00:17:01.854 into the most contentious issue with this person we just met. 282 00:17:02.688 --> 00:17:05.224 But to first do the hard work 283 00:17:05.224 --> 00:17:08.861 of building a foundation on building a little bit of connection. 284 00:17:09.328 --> 00:17:12.865 You know, I think so often we just jump right into the fire 285 00:17:13.198 --> 00:17:16.201 and somehow we're surprised that we get burned. 286 00:17:16.268 --> 00:17:20.105 But we, we need to be willing to do that work. 287 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:26.111 To build the relationship to to sustain the engagement 288 00:17:26.111 --> 00:17:29.114 if it's going to turn into anything productive. 289 00:17:29.348 --> 00:17:32.384 As you've been in these communities 290 00:17:32.751 --> 00:17:36.789 helping to tell these stories with your guiding questions, 291 00:17:37.556 --> 00:17:42.461 have you seen anyone be surprised in the moment 292 00:17:42.461 --> 00:17:46.331 when there's the grand debut of their own stories in their communities? 293 00:17:46.532 --> 00:17:48.600 You do these really wonderful displays. 294 00:17:50.135 --> 00:17:52.071 Do you have any stories around 295 00:17:52.071 --> 00:17:55.808 how folks have reacted to their own stories, seeing them, 296 00:17:55.808 --> 00:17:59.378 and how they have reacted to maybe others in their community 297 00:17:59.378 --> 00:18:02.714 who they don't have a relationship with, or not 298 00:18:02.714 --> 00:18:05.851 a strong relationship, but they see that they've gone through that process too. 299 00:18:05.851 --> 00:18:08.854 Have you have you seen anything like that happen? 300 00:18:09.655 --> 00:18:10.756 Oh yeah, all the time. 301 00:18:10.756 --> 00:18:14.259 And it's what sustains me on the days when I get really tired from 302 00:18:14.626 --> 00:18:16.462 from showing up and doing this work. 303 00:18:16.462 --> 00:18:18.697 But let me, 304 00:18:18.697 --> 00:18:22.634 let me just give you a little background for the listeners. 305 00:18:22.668 --> 00:18:26.438 So we'll very often come into a community, 306 00:18:26.438 --> 00:18:30.109 a college, a conference, a faith community, 307 00:18:30.876 --> 00:18:34.446 and we'll set up a studio and we will ask a question that 308 00:18:35.447 --> 00:18:38.484 we've sort of determined collaboratively. 309 00:18:39.017 --> 00:18:42.688 It's questions like, “When have you found unexpected courage? 310 00:18:43.088 --> 00:18:45.324 When have you bridge the divide? 311 00:18:45.324 --> 00:18:48.927 When have you felt a sense of belonging?” You know, questions 312 00:18:48.927 --> 00:18:52.531 like this, that again, let people talk about mission, vision and values. 313 00:18:52.865 --> 00:18:56.568 And people will write a response in 25 words or less. 314 00:18:57.402 --> 00:19:01.406 We'll do a black and white portrait and we combine their picture and their words. 315 00:19:01.607 --> 00:19:04.843 And so the goal is to create 316 00:19:04.843 --> 00:19:08.647 this whole body of work of the community talking about this issue. 317 00:19:08.647 --> 00:19:12.184 And then at the end of it we have some sort of public event. 318 00:19:12.184 --> 00:19:14.052 And we share the stories back. 319 00:19:14.052 --> 00:19:17.990 So that may mean I do a keynote lecture, 320 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.026 and we have a little six minute video that includes some of their stories. 321 00:19:21.727 --> 00:19:25.664 It may mean that we print them out and we host them in a physical display. 322 00:19:25.998 --> 00:19:31.236 Last month in New York Mills, Minnesota, a little rural community, 323 00:19:31.670 --> 00:19:35.941 they had this great set of grain elevators right on Main Street, 324 00:19:35.941 --> 00:19:39.811 and we actually projected 178 of their local stories 325 00:19:39.811 --> 00:19:42.214 on the side of the grain elevator. 326 00:19:42.214 --> 00:19:44.783 And when that happens, 327 00:19:45.918 --> 00:19:46.652 people start to 328 00:19:46.652 --> 00:19:49.988 see themselves and their peers in new ways. 329 00:19:50.522 --> 00:19:54.426 You know, they start to get this, this different sense of who 330 00:19:54.459 --> 00:19:56.995 the people are around them because they'll look at stories 331 00:19:56.995 --> 00:19:59.998 and they'll go, “Oh, I didn't know they went through that. 332 00:20:00.332 --> 00:20:03.335 I didn't know they lost their parent like I just did. 333 00:20:03.435 --> 00:20:07.506 I didn't know they struggled with these feelings of this.” Because I don't 334 00:20:08.173 --> 00:20:12.611 I don't know what the magic of this is actually, other than people 335 00:20:12.878 --> 00:20:15.914 feeling seen and heard and valued. 336 00:20:16.648 --> 00:20:18.951 But when you create a space to listen like this, 337 00:20:18.951 --> 00:20:22.120 people will share some really powerful stuff. 338 00:20:22.454 --> 00:20:25.591 And and so really vulnerable stuff. 339 00:20:25.824 --> 00:20:28.460 And I'll just share one, 340 00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:32.064 one example with you of when I've seen this play out, there are, 341 00:20:32.064 --> 00:20:35.667 there are anecdotes day in and day out, like I said, that sustain me. 342 00:20:36.068 --> 00:20:40.872 But I was at a retreat center in Washington state up in the Cascades. 343 00:20:40.872 --> 00:20:43.242 It's called Holden Village, and I showed up. 344 00:20:43.242 --> 00:20:45.577 This was the second year I had done this. 345 00:20:45.577 --> 00:20:49.648 And a woman who I didn't know I had seen her before, but I didn't really know 346 00:20:49.648 --> 00:20:53.185 her, came up and said, “Boy, last year I was intimidated to do your thing, 347 00:20:53.185 --> 00:20:56.755 but by God, I'm going to do it this year.” I'm like, “Okay, great. 348 00:20:57.222 --> 00:21:01.026 I'll look forward to it.” And she, our question there was, “When 349 00:21:01.026 --> 00:21:05.897 have you found unexpected courage?” And she replied by saying, 350 00:21:06.765 --> 00:21:11.536 “Sometimes getting out of bed in the morning requires courage. 351 00:21:11.570 --> 00:21:14.640 I do life solo.” She said, “I don't do life alone. 352 00:21:14.673 --> 00:21:19.111 I do life solo.” And, and then we shared this. 353 00:21:19.111 --> 00:21:22.080 We projected them for this community of 300 people 354 00:21:22.414 --> 00:21:25.684 and afterwards, this woman's name was Deb. 355 00:21:26.218 --> 00:21:30.522 The next day in the, in the dining hall, Deb found me 356 00:21:30.522 --> 00:21:33.625 and she said, “I want to talk to you.” And I thought, oh, no. 357 00:21:33.892 --> 00:21:37.362 You know, now she's self-conscious or she's she's sorry 358 00:21:37.362 --> 00:21:41.099 that she participated in this thing, but she said 359 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.770 she said, “After you projected that image,” 360 00:21:44.770 --> 00:21:47.839 she said, “there were a dozen people that came up to me 361 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.443 afterwards and said, ‘That's me too,’” right? 362 00:21:51.443 --> 00:21:55.314 Or, “’I've been married for 40 years, and now my spouse has got 363 00:21:55.314 --> 00:21:56.915 a terminal diagnosis. 364 00:21:56.915 --> 00:21:58.817 How am I going to work through this? 365 00:21:58.817 --> 00:22:00.719 What can you what can you share with me?’” 366 00:22:00.719 --> 00:22:04.323 And she said it opened so many conversations 367 00:22:04.489 --> 00:22:07.492 that would have never existed had she kept that inside. 368 00:22:08.126 --> 00:22:10.762 And that that to me is a perfect example 369 00:22:10.762 --> 00:22:14.700 of the reason why we have to crack open a little bit 370 00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:19.104 and we have to share some of these hard things because we don't find 371 00:22:19.871 --> 00:22:24.476 ridicule or scorn or isolation when we share those vulnerable 372 00:22:24.476 --> 00:22:30.082 selves, parts of ourselves, what we find is outreach and warmth and connection. 373 00:22:30.816 --> 00:22:34.052 And I think we we need to practice that 374 00:22:34.353 --> 00:22:37.723 in order to convince ourselves that it's going to be okay. 375 00:22:39.157 --> 00:22:39.591 I find 376 00:22:39.591 --> 00:22:43.161 in my own work too, that some of these people 377 00:22:43.995 --> 00:22:48.900 are afraid to tell their story and they need an outlet to do it, 378 00:22:48.934 --> 00:22:52.471 like the work they that you're doing and that projection. 379 00:22:52.471 --> 00:22:56.608 And then seeing herself projected on the screen in the community 380 00:22:56.875 --> 00:22:59.778 in that way was kind of a self reflection for her. 381 00:22:59.778 --> 00:23:02.447 But like you said, others came out to say, I'm 382 00:23:02.447 --> 00:23:06.118 I'm kind of lonely too, or I'm doing life solo or my life's changing. 383 00:23:06.418 --> 00:23:11.089 And just think about the sub-community that creates now around her. 384 00:23:11.723 --> 00:23:13.759 Have you heard from past participants? 385 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.295 I'm thinking, you know, those who took part years ago. 386 00:23:17.496 --> 00:23:21.032 Have you heard how this process shifted their viewpoints and/or 387 00:23:21.032 --> 00:23:24.636 how they have chosen to interact with others years later? 388 00:23:25.771 --> 00:23:26.138 Yeah, 389 00:23:26.138 --> 00:23:30.242 I just had lunch earlier this week with a man 390 00:23:30.242 --> 00:23:34.112 named Zafar Siddiqui, who I interviewed in the first year of my project. 391 00:23:34.479 --> 00:23:36.481 And we've continued to stay in touch. 392 00:23:36.481 --> 00:23:40.085 And, you know, I hear often from people 393 00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:43.989 that that they've never had the opportunity 394 00:23:43.989 --> 00:23:48.059 to articulate these sort of ideas before, that it was the first time 395 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:52.697 that they actually sat down to have a conversation quite like this. 396 00:23:52.998 --> 00:23:56.001 You know, and our our conversations are far ranging, 397 00:23:56.001 --> 00:24:00.605 like yours, we do an hour long recorded oral history. 398 00:24:00.605 --> 00:24:03.508 And, you know, we ask, “What does peace mean to you? 399 00:24:03.508 --> 00:24:04.876 How do you work towards it in your life? 400 00:24:04.876 --> 00:24:07.879 What are some of the obstacles you encounter along the way?” 401 00:24:07.879 --> 00:24:10.849 But then, like you, I like to go down the rabbit holes. 402 00:24:10.849 --> 00:24:14.252 So someone will drop a little hint and I'm like, ooh, 403 00:24:14.786 --> 00:24:16.354 let's talk about that some more. 404 00:24:16.354 --> 00:24:18.924 Or what do you mean by that? And and so 405 00:24:19.991 --> 00:24:20.392 people 406 00:24:20.392 --> 00:24:23.762 wind up going down these paths in their conversations 407 00:24:23.762 --> 00:24:27.032 that are a little bit cathartic, a little bit 408 00:24:27.032 --> 00:24:30.001 clarifying, for me. 409 00:24:30.135 --> 00:24:31.536 Sometimes I, 410 00:24:31.536 --> 00:24:34.773 you know, “What does peace mean to you?” That can be sort of a squishy question. 411 00:24:35.106 --> 00:24:38.643 And I kind of think I know what I mean by that, but it's only when 412 00:24:38.643 --> 00:24:43.715 I have to articulate it out loud that my thoughts take some concrete shape. 413 00:24:43.715 --> 00:24:48.420 And even then, when I say it out loud, sometimes I go, ah, no, 414 00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:50.322 that's not quite right. That's not what I mean. 415 00:24:50.322 --> 00:24:53.158 And then I have to turn it and look at it again. 416 00:24:53.158 --> 00:24:56.161 And so I hear from people all the time 417 00:24:56.561 --> 00:25:00.332 that they, they experience that sort of thing in the process. 418 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.735 What I also hear a lot of times 419 00:25:03.735 --> 00:25:07.672 is people- When, when I go into communities, 420 00:25:07.672 --> 00:25:13.378 I was just out in, in Corvallis, Oregon, and we worked with a coalition of campus 421 00:25:13.612 --> 00:25:17.249 and community organizations that came together to sponsor this 422 00:25:17.249 --> 00:25:20.852 and to make it effective and to to invite people to participate. 423 00:25:21.653 --> 00:25:27.392 And what I heard when I was there is, oh, we never really worked with this group 424 00:25:27.392 --> 00:25:30.962 before or that group before, but now that we're talking, 425 00:25:30.962 --> 00:25:34.633 we see all sorts of common ground and we see all sorts of opportunities 426 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.403 for working together in the future, some synergy and some common ground. 427 00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:39.938 And and so 428 00:25:41.306 --> 00:25:44.175 this connection happens on the personal level, 429 00:25:44.175 --> 00:25:47.345 where people get to articulate some of their deepest held beliefs, 430 00:25:47.646 --> 00:25:50.482 but it also happens in the communal level 431 00:25:50.482 --> 00:25:55.687 where we're seeding and incubating collaborations that can hopefully, 432 00:25:55.987 --> 00:25:59.424 they, you know, outlast my presence 433 00:25:59.424 --> 00:26:02.427 in a particular community. 434 00:26:02.494 --> 00:26:04.963 As someone who also collects narratives, 435 00:26:04.963 --> 00:26:08.733 I believe to my core that everyone has a story to tell. 436 00:26:08.733 --> 00:26:11.136 And I know you believe that too, 437 00:26:11.136 --> 00:26:14.940 but some stories stay with me longer than others 438 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.710 and have left an impact on me in ways that I never imagined 439 00:26:18.710 --> 00:26:22.681 or shifted my own belief system, or, you know, my own thought process 440 00:26:22.681 --> 00:26:24.749 around an issue or a topic. 441 00:26:24.749 --> 00:26:27.786 I'm thinking in particular, I was working with a group of folks in Atlanta, 442 00:26:27.786 --> 00:26:33.391 Georgia, and there was a story about a man who's now an adult. 443 00:26:33.391 --> 00:26:34.626 But when he was 15, 444 00:26:34.626 --> 00:26:38.830 he was kicked out of his house and he was sold into sexual slavery. 445 00:26:38.830 --> 00:26:40.532 I mean, he basically 446 00:26:40.532 --> 00:26:43.835 became part of the sex industry, and that was a survival mechanism. 447 00:26:44.069 --> 00:26:46.738 And then I think about another story that we collected in Dayton, 448 00:26:46.738 --> 00:26:49.741 and from a bouncer who survived a mass shooting, 449 00:26:49.908 --> 00:26:54.512 and how he recalled seeing the shooter who had been killed by the police, 450 00:26:54.946 --> 00:26:59.451 and seeing him there and having so much anger at him, 451 00:26:59.451 --> 00:27:02.854 but also realizing in that moment that he was someone's kid 452 00:27:03.655 --> 00:27:08.126 and that he had died, and that there were parents who likely loved him 453 00:27:08.827 --> 00:27:11.463 and were going through a different kind of mourning process. 454 00:27:12.631 --> 00:27:14.232 And we never think about those things. 455 00:27:14.232 --> 00:27:15.333 And I'm not giving, right? 456 00:27:15.333 --> 00:27:17.302 Like, I'm not, apologizing 457 00:27:17.302 --> 00:27:20.305 for anybody who was doing like a mass shooting or anything like that. 458 00:27:20.672 --> 00:27:23.675 But it changed my thinking about 459 00:27:24.242 --> 00:27:27.512 stories and how they impact us in these different ways. 460 00:27:28.580 --> 00:27:30.148 But these stories can be heavy, right? 461 00:27:30.148 --> 00:27:31.516 Those kinds of stories are heavy. 462 00:27:31.516 --> 00:27:34.386 They're hard to hear, but they're important to be told and shared. 463 00:27:34.386 --> 00:27:37.522 So I'm interested to know, do you have any particular stories 464 00:27:37.522 --> 00:27:40.792 that have stayed with you and impacted you in different ways? 465 00:27:40.825 --> 00:27:43.795 Tell me more about that. 466 00:27:43.795 --> 00:27:44.195 Yeah. 467 00:27:44.195 --> 00:27:46.164 There are so many. 468 00:27:46.164 --> 00:27:50.035 But like you, there are a few that just sort of stick 469 00:27:50.035 --> 00:27:54.739 and and and one of them is a man named Lee Bennett. 470 00:27:55.807 --> 00:27:57.542 In Charleston. 471 00:27:57.542 --> 00:27:59.477 And, 472 00:27:59.477 --> 00:28:02.647 this was in the last couple of years as we were on the road full time. 473 00:28:02.781 --> 00:28:06.117 We were in Charleston, and I really wanted to talk about some of 474 00:28:06.117 --> 00:28:10.588 the historic ramifications of slavery and how race was impacting our world. 475 00:28:11.022 --> 00:28:14.025 And you, you remember, I'm sure, 476 00:28:14.092 --> 00:28:17.829 the story from 2015 477 00:28:18.163 --> 00:28:23.802 where a white supremacist walked into a Bible study 478 00:28:24.035 --> 00:28:27.605 in Mother Emanuel church, all Black church, 479 00:28:27.772 --> 00:28:30.675 and asked to be invited into the Bible study. 480 00:28:30.675 --> 00:28:33.678 And he was invited in, and he sat with the people for, 481 00:28:34.479 --> 00:28:38.049 for an hour talking about the word of God. 482 00:28:38.049 --> 00:28:41.019 And at the end, when everybody bowed their heads to pray, 483 00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:43.588 he pulled out a gun and he shot and killed nine people. 484 00:28:44.556 --> 00:28:47.158 And when, 485 00:28:47.158 --> 00:28:50.395 when I was waiting for- So Lee was going to meet me at the church 486 00:28:50.395 --> 00:28:55.233 so we could do the interview when I was- I show up chronically early. 487 00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:57.869 It's just- [Laughter] I don't know how that happened. 488 00:28:57.869 --> 00:28:59.571 There's nothing wrong with that. 489 00:28:59.571 --> 00:29:00.739 Yeah. Yeah. So. 490 00:29:00.739 --> 00:29:03.575 So I was waiting a couple of minutes for Lee to show up at the, 491 00:29:03.575 --> 00:29:05.910 at the normal time, like normal people do. 492 00:29:05.910 --> 00:29:08.880 But I was standing on the steps of the church: 493 00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:11.683 this middle aged white guy 494 00:29:11.683 --> 00:29:16.755 with bags of gear asking to be trusted and allowed into that space. 495 00:29:16.788 --> 00:29:17.789 Mhmm. 496 00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:22.861 You know, just six years after this, yeah, horrific thing happened. 497 00:29:23.027 --> 00:29:26.798 And again, this wasn't a question that I led with 498 00:29:26.798 --> 00:29:31.870 because it was important that we spent some time sort of building relationship 499 00:29:31.870 --> 00:29:35.640 and, and, and feeling each other out in the conversation. 500 00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:38.710 But at a certain point, I said, “Lee, how is it 501 00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:43.314 that a,” - Lee's a black guy - and I said, “How is it that a person 502 00:29:43.314 --> 00:29:48.720 who looks like you can come to trust a person who looks like me 503 00:29:49.320 --> 00:29:54.192 after having that trust violated in such a horrific way?” And he said, 504 00:29:54.192 --> 00:29:59.063 “Well that's easy John.” He said, “This isn't our house, this is the Lord's house. 505 00:29:59.063 --> 00:30:03.668 And we are here to serve and to welcome and to love 506 00:30:03.668 --> 00:30:08.807 everybody who walks through the door.” And he said, “We can't allow 507 00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:12.343 the horrific actions of one human being 508 00:30:12.343 --> 00:30:15.880 to change who we are inside.” Jamison: Wow. 509 00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:19.651 You know, and wherever you fall on the faith spectrum, whatever 510 00:30:19.884 --> 00:30:22.854 you believe in, that world is immaterial. 511 00:30:22.854 --> 00:30:26.324 But the the, the notion that that sort of grace 512 00:30:26.624 --> 00:30:31.563 and welcome and forgiveness could be present in a space 513 00:30:31.863 --> 00:30:35.433 where such a horrible thing happened, was really just 514 00:30:37.001 --> 00:30:40.004 profoundly moving to me 515 00:30:40.171 --> 00:30:43.174 and is a lesson that I try to carry out, 516 00:30:44.108 --> 00:30:46.377 you know, as I walk through my days. 517 00:30:46.377 --> 00:30:48.313 That's an amazing story. 518 00:30:48.313 --> 00:30:50.582 And it does take time to build trust 519 00:30:50.582 --> 00:30:54.285 when you're asking people to share their narratives with you. 520 00:30:54.285 --> 00:30:56.888 And that trust isn't always come easy. 521 00:30:56.888 --> 00:30:57.722 In that case, 522 00:30:57.722 --> 00:31:01.292 it sounds like you were a little more nervous about maybe building that trust, 523 00:31:01.292 --> 00:31:04.729 but he was a little more forgiving around it and was saying, I trust you. 524 00:31:04.729 --> 00:31:06.564 Come, come into the space. 525 00:31:06.564 --> 00:31:10.168 This is a space that everyone is welcome for us to have these conversations. 526 00:31:10.435 --> 00:31:14.105 Have you been in a different kind of space where you're wanting to build 527 00:31:14.105 --> 00:31:17.709 that trust, but there's kind of walls that need to be broken down. 528 00:31:17.709 --> 00:31:18.910 What does that look like? 529 00:31:20.011 --> 00:31:22.547 Yeah, I mean that that happens a lot. 530 00:31:22.547 --> 00:31:26.251 Look, I'm I'm the poster child of privilege. 531 00:31:26.417 --> 00:31:31.823 You know, if we're going to talk about privilege, I’m a middle aged, 532 00:31:31.856 --> 00:31:37.328 white, cisgender, married, college educated, you know, blah, blah, blah. 533 00:31:37.662 --> 00:31:41.366 And and many of the people 534 00:31:41.366 --> 00:31:45.236 who I, who I interviewed don't share that same privilege. 535 00:31:45.236 --> 00:31:48.873 And it's really- Well, a couple of things to say about that. 536 00:31:48.873 --> 00:31:52.176 It's really important to me that I reduce my filter 537 00:31:52.176 --> 00:31:56.114 as much as possible and that I amplify their voice. 538 00:31:56.314 --> 00:31:59.717 It's really important to me that when they see the final project, 539 00:32:00.051 --> 00:32:03.121 they say, “Yeah, that's what I was trying to say that day. 540 00:32:03.121 --> 00:32:06.124 Thanks for thanks for giving me the space to do it.” 541 00:32:06.157 --> 00:32:09.027 But it's also really important to realize 542 00:32:09.027 --> 00:32:12.130 that there are a lot of communities 543 00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:15.166 where a mistrust 544 00:32:15.166 --> 00:32:18.870 of somebody who looks like me is a natural byproduct 545 00:32:19.070 --> 00:32:22.273 of all of the difficult history that we share in this country. 546 00:32:23.341 --> 00:32:25.576 And so that looks different ways, you know, 547 00:32:25.576 --> 00:32:29.580 if if I'm working in a, in an indigenous community, 548 00:32:29.914 --> 00:32:32.717 I went up and did a series of water of stories 549 00:32:32.717 --> 00:32:36.087 about the water protectors who were protesting the line 550 00:32:36.087 --> 00:32:39.090 three oil pipeline going under the Mississippi River. 551 00:32:39.891 --> 00:32:42.994 I didn't bring out my camera for the first three days, 552 00:32:43.361 --> 00:32:46.464 because I was just hanging out at the camp with them and talking 553 00:32:46.464 --> 00:32:49.467 and getting to know one another and trying to, 554 00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:54.105 trying to share some of my process and hope that it resonated with them. 555 00:32:54.105 --> 00:32:54.739 And it did. 556 00:32:54.739 --> 00:32:57.875 And but then when you when you have that trust, 557 00:32:57.875 --> 00:33:01.980 it becomes really important to honor it and to make sure 558 00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:07.251 that you're using these stories fairly and to make sure that you're, you're 559 00:33:07.251 --> 00:33:11.823 representing people in the way that they would want to be represented. 560 00:33:12.223 --> 00:33:17.829 You know, and I've, I've done stories with veterans who are working on 561 00:33:18.062 --> 00:33:21.632 PTSD and suicide prevention, and I'm, I'm not a veteran. 562 00:33:21.833 --> 00:33:23.468 I'm this peace guy, right? 563 00:33:23.468 --> 00:33:29.507 And so, it takes some time to build that connection to help us understand 564 00:33:29.507 --> 00:33:33.044 one another, because I probably have some misconceptions about who they are, 565 00:33:33.344 --> 00:33:36.347 and they probably have some misconceptions about who I am. 566 00:33:36.414 --> 00:33:39.484 And so if we can have some grace 567 00:33:40.451 --> 00:33:40.985 with that 568 00:33:40.985 --> 00:33:44.555 process, but continue to show up with integrity 569 00:33:44.555 --> 00:33:49.027 and with authenticity and curiosity to hear who they are, 570 00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:53.364 that, you know, this is this is a part of the process and it can't 571 00:33:53.698 --> 00:33:56.701 it can't be rushed and it can't be faked. 572 00:33:57.402 --> 00:34:01.005 You know, it’s, it's rooted in honest 573 00:34:01.005 --> 00:34:05.643 human compassion and and and curiosity, a desire to learn more. 574 00:34:05.910 --> 00:34:09.847 On the other end of that spectrum, have you ever gone 575 00:34:09.847 --> 00:34:13.384 into a community to build that trust, and it just never, 576 00:34:13.818 --> 00:34:17.121 it just never got there, or they decided through the process 577 00:34:17.121 --> 00:34:21.092 that they didn't want to be photographed or share their narratives in that way? 578 00:34:21.092 --> 00:34:24.095 Have you experienced that in your years of doing the work? 579 00:34:24.962 --> 00:34:27.999 Yeah, yeah, maybe not in a in a community per se, 580 00:34:27.999 --> 00:34:33.504 but I was I was down along the border, doing stories around immigration. 581 00:34:33.871 --> 00:34:37.141 And when I do that, 582 00:34:37.141 --> 00:34:41.212 I try to line up interviews with, you know, 583 00:34:41.345 --> 00:34:44.282 asylum seekers and activists, 584 00:34:44.282 --> 00:34:49.387 but also with ranchers and Border Patrol agents. 585 00:34:49.654 --> 00:34:52.457 And we were camped in a 586 00:34:52.457 --> 00:34:55.460 in a campground near Bisbee, Arizona. 587 00:34:55.593 --> 00:34:58.262 A lot of the people in that campground were people 588 00:34:58.262 --> 00:35:03.067 who were construction workers who were working on building the wall. 589 00:35:03.201 --> 00:35:07.972 This is in January of 2021. 590 00:35:08.673 --> 00:35:11.976 So, the Trump administration was actively building 591 00:35:13.244 --> 00:35:15.079 parts of the wall. 592 00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:18.082 We happened to be there when 593 00:35:18.883 --> 00:35:21.486 Biden 594 00:35:21.486 --> 00:35:25.056 took over and his administration stopped construction of the wall. 595 00:35:25.256 --> 00:35:28.359 So those people, in particular, there was one man 596 00:35:28.493 --> 00:35:31.395 who was camped near us who was from Minnesota. 597 00:35:31.395 --> 00:35:33.331 I'm from Minnesota. He saw my license plate. 598 00:35:33.331 --> 00:35:37.835 We had started talking, and I explained to him 599 00:35:37.835 --> 00:35:41.506 what I did, and, he had just been laid off. 600 00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:45.309 He had just moved his family down to Arizona to work construction on the wall. 601 00:35:45.476 --> 00:35:48.646 They were living in an RV, and then construction stopped. 602 00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:51.716 So he was in a really bad spot. 603 00:35:51.716 --> 00:35:54.919 He was trying to figure out how he was going to support his family. 604 00:35:54.919 --> 00:35:56.320 And he literally said to me, 605 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.323 “I suppose I could go back up to Minnesota and work on that pipeline, 606 00:35:59.457 --> 00:36:01.225 but they're probably going to shut that down too.” 607 00:36:02.393 --> 00:36:02.760 You know, 608 00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.830 so he and I probably voted for different people. 609 00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:10.234 He and I probably had different understandings of, of 610 00:36:10.234 --> 00:36:11.702 you know, political issues. 611 00:36:11.702 --> 00:36:15.139 But I said to him, “Here, I'm working on this project, 612 00:36:15.139 --> 00:36:17.074 I would really love to have your voice in it. 613 00:36:17.074 --> 00:36:18.409 I think it's an important part 614 00:36:18.409 --> 00:36:22.380 of the conversation because now you're in a bind for your family. 615 00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:26.751 I get that, and I would love to hear more about what this means to you.” 616 00:36:27.785 --> 00:36:32.490 But I'm I'm sure he was in such, such a state of concern. 617 00:36:32.523 --> 00:36:36.861 He was he was in sort of this moment of economic crisis for his family. 618 00:36:37.128 --> 00:36:39.096 He just wanted nothing to do with it. 619 00:36:39.096 --> 00:36:43.167 So there are times that I've been rejected. 620 00:36:43.534 --> 00:36:47.572 There are times, I mean, people hear a project that has the word “peace” in it, 621 00:36:47.572 --> 00:36:49.674 and they make certain assumptions that it's this, 622 00:36:49.674 --> 00:36:53.244 you know, left wing hippie wacko thing. 623 00:36:53.644 --> 00:36:56.347 I hope that they spend time 624 00:36:56.347 --> 00:37:01.986 with my project, that they'll understand that it is rooted in listening to people 625 00:37:02.353 --> 00:37:06.524 who have experiences different from mine, that have experiences different 626 00:37:06.524 --> 00:37:07.558 from yours. 627 00:37:07.558 --> 00:37:10.528 And, but sometimes that 628 00:37:10.528 --> 00:37:14.131 initial perception can be hard to get through. 629 00:37:14.432 --> 00:37:18.102 And I suspect in his case, there was just too much going on 630 00:37:18.402 --> 00:37:21.639 for him to really even be interested 631 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.642 in getting over that hurdle right then. 632 00:37:24.875 --> 00:37:28.412 And those kind of stories, and stories like we talked about earlier 633 00:37:28.412 --> 00:37:31.515 that are hard to hear, stay with us, right? 634 00:37:31.515 --> 00:37:32.650 As storytellers, 635 00:37:32.650 --> 00:37:34.752 we don't just walk away from those experiences 636 00:37:34.752 --> 00:37:37.855 and think, oh, here's this great thing I'm going to put up on my website 637 00:37:37.855 --> 00:37:40.891 or share out right through books or create community conversations. 638 00:37:40.891 --> 00:37:45.029 They stay with us and we remember them years later. 639 00:37:45.029 --> 00:37:50.301 And sometimes they can be hard on our own mental health in some ways. 640 00:37:50.501 --> 00:37:53.504 What advice do you have for other storytellers 641 00:37:53.504 --> 00:37:57.275 on maintaining their own mental health, while collecting and sharing stories that 642 00:37:57.275 --> 00:37:58.776 are sometimes hard to hear? 643 00:38:01.012 --> 00:38:02.647 Yeah, that's a great question. 644 00:38:02.647 --> 00:38:07.451 I think if you do this work well, 645 00:38:08.853 --> 00:38:11.455 if you do it the way it should be done, 646 00:38:11.455 --> 00:38:15.426 you're going to carry some of that weight with you. 647 00:38:16.227 --> 00:38:17.895 You know, it does come at a cost. 648 00:38:17.895 --> 00:38:20.464 I have a friend, another storyteller. 649 00:38:20.464 --> 00:38:24.035 And, and and great journalist, Barry Yeoman. 650 00:38:24.435 --> 00:38:27.438 And and Barry 651 00:38:27.705 --> 00:38:29.807 said that 652 00:38:29.807 --> 00:38:33.811 psychologist used to talk about this notion of second hand trauma, 653 00:38:34.312 --> 00:38:37.048 that if you are in the presence of people 654 00:38:37.048 --> 00:38:40.785 who have experienced that sort of trauma, that you carry some of that with you, 655 00:38:40.785 --> 00:38:46.324 but increasingly they're just calling it trauma, you know, no second hand about it. 656 00:38:46.324 --> 00:38:51.062 Then you you experience that the way, not the way. 657 00:38:51.295 --> 00:38:55.199 But, you some of that transfers to you. 658 00:38:55.232 --> 00:38:55.933 And I think, 659 00:38:57.268 --> 00:38:57.902 I think it is 660 00:38:57.902 --> 00:39:00.905 okay to have our hearts broken. 661 00:39:01.072 --> 00:39:05.009 I think it's okay to encounter weight and to feel that. 662 00:39:05.009 --> 00:39:09.213 In fact, in fact, I think that's- when your heart is broken like that, 663 00:39:09.213 --> 00:39:13.918 I think those cracks are where the compassion and the light can seep in. 664 00:39:14.685 --> 00:39:18.022 But yeah, you need to be a little cautious. 665 00:39:18.022 --> 00:39:20.925 You need to also do some self-care. 666 00:39:20.925 --> 00:39:26.497 You have to figure out what it is that will sustain you. 667 00:39:27.431 --> 00:39:29.867 And for me, it's it's music 668 00:39:29.867 --> 00:39:33.437 and it's it's, hiking in the outdoors. 669 00:39:33.437 --> 00:39:37.108 And so as we were traveling, gathering these stories, we'd 670 00:39:37.708 --> 00:39:39.977 do a bunch of interviews 671 00:39:39.977 --> 00:39:43.381 and then take a break and go to some beautiful place. 672 00:39:43.381 --> 00:39:46.417 And I would do my editing and do, do sunrise 673 00:39:46.417 --> 00:39:49.420 walks, through this gorgeous landscape. 674 00:39:49.687 --> 00:39:53.591 But you need to pay attention to yourself 675 00:39:53.591 --> 00:39:58.295 and your body and be able to respond and and do that self-care. 676 00:39:58.295 --> 00:40:00.231 If you're going to be able to sustain the work. 677 00:40:00.231 --> 00:40:03.968 For me, especially as we were on the road, 678 00:40:03.968 --> 00:40:07.338 I started feeling a lot of weight. 679 00:40:07.338 --> 00:40:08.973 And it, I was- 680 00:40:10.207 --> 00:40:10.741 I've always 681 00:40:10.741 --> 00:40:13.711 enjoyed beer and wine and and whiskey. 682 00:40:13.978 --> 00:40:17.782 I think I was starting to enjoy it a little more than I should. 683 00:40:18.149 --> 00:40:21.452 And in fact, the better way to say that is 684 00:40:21.452 --> 00:40:25.156 I started to not enjoy it, but still use it as a crutch. 685 00:40:25.423 --> 00:40:28.793 And so I decided I needed to stop. 686 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:31.962 You know, so a year and a half ago, I just sort of drew the line 687 00:40:31.962 --> 00:40:34.965 and said, “This, this isn't good for me anymore.” 688 00:40:34.965 --> 00:40:38.936 My sense of self-care was that I had to quit. 689 00:40:39.170 --> 00:40:42.840 And it's, it was the right choice for me. 690 00:40:44.375 --> 00:40:47.011 You know, in a world where we can't control a lot of things, 691 00:40:47.011 --> 00:40:49.747 that was one of the things I could control. 692 00:40:49.747 --> 00:40:54.985 And so in that spirit of self-care, and finding more healthy ways 693 00:40:54.985 --> 00:40:58.088 to navigate some of that weight, I set that one aside. 694 00:40:58.355 --> 00:40:58.956 Congratulations. 695 00:40:58.956 --> 00:41:00.591 I think it's all- Yeah. 696 00:41:00.591 --> 00:41:01.091 Thanks. 697 00:41:01.091 --> 00:41:04.795 I appreciate that. And it, you know, it, 698 00:41:06.030 --> 00:41:07.465 I thought 699 00:41:07.465 --> 00:41:10.000 a few months back, I thought maybe I'll just have a glass of wine, 700 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.470 see how that feels. And I'm like, nope. 701 00:41:12.470 --> 00:41:14.271 I think this is the better answer for me. 702 00:41:14.271 --> 00:41:15.105 I don't need that. 703 00:41:15.105 --> 00:41:20.578 So it, I mean, people, people find their own way to, 704 00:41:21.278 --> 00:41:25.182 to carry weight, but it's important to pay attention 705 00:41:25.182 --> 00:41:28.652 to yourself so that you're, you're taking care of yourself in the process. 706 00:41:30.321 --> 00:41:32.423 I find for myself 707 00:41:32.423 --> 00:41:35.793 too, you talked about hiking and being in nature. 708 00:41:35.793 --> 00:41:40.865 I found that I find that to be an outlet for me as well, to clear my mind, 709 00:41:41.298 --> 00:41:45.769 but also to discover while I'm out walking just how connected 710 00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:51.008 we are with the world, with the universe, with, nature. 711 00:41:51.008 --> 00:41:54.245 And those small reminders 712 00:41:55.212 --> 00:41:55.846 keep me 713 00:41:55.846 --> 00:41:58.949 going and, and help me feel centered. 714 00:41:58.949 --> 00:42:03.554 And so I often say to people too, I think even if you don't consider yourself 715 00:42:03.554 --> 00:42:08.425 a hiker or a runner or a walker, like do what you can to get outdoors 716 00:42:08.692 --> 00:42:13.531 to just clear your mind and be in nature and find that interconnectedness 717 00:42:13.531 --> 00:42:17.101 that continues to push us forward to do this work. 718 00:42:17.434 --> 00:42:19.870 Because if we're just staying inside all the time, it's 719 00:42:19.870 --> 00:42:23.073 that is a whole different impact 720 00:42:23.073 --> 00:42:26.076 on our on our mind and our mental health. 721 00:42:26.076 --> 00:42:26.510 Man, it's 722 00:42:26.510 --> 00:42:30.214 easy to get sucked into the screen in this world that we live in. 723 00:42:30.281 --> 00:42:34.885 But I love to be outside and feel small, 724 00:42:34.919 --> 00:42:38.756 you know, whether that's whether that's, you know, standing next to 725 00:42:39.323 --> 00:42:41.759 the sea and some pounding surf or 726 00:42:41.759 --> 00:42:45.563 or standing in, in, in the desert, or, we, 727 00:42:45.563 --> 00:42:48.933 my wife and I, also have a Christmas tree farm in western Wisconsin. 728 00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:53.370 And so just to be out there where there's nothing but big Sky, 729 00:42:53.771 --> 00:43:00.144 and an open space, feeling small like that is, is part of recharging. 730 00:43:00.144 --> 00:43:04.315 It puts things in a perspective that I sometimes lose in the day to day. 731 00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:07.518 You've been on 732 00:43:07.518 --> 00:43:10.821 the road now for 15 years, 733 00:43:10.821 --> 00:43:17.094 but you did have a home in Indianapolis but you gave that up. 734 00:43:17.094 --> 00:43:19.630 So in the fall of 2020 I think it was, right? 735 00:43:19.630 --> 00:43:21.732 You and your wife sold your house. 736 00:43:21.732 --> 00:43:25.803 You took your storytelling method to a different level. 737 00:43:26.070 --> 00:43:27.504 You bought a travel trailer 738 00:43:27.504 --> 00:43:31.075 and then you began to dedicate more time to the road and finding stories. 739 00:43:31.442 --> 00:43:34.578 What have you learned about yourself these past few years on the road? 740 00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:40.150 Yeah, we set out in the fall of 2020, like you said. 741 00:43:40.150 --> 00:43:41.719 Sold our house, bought an RV. 742 00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:47.858 We started in a 34ft travel trailer that we pulled with, with a pickup truck. 743 00:43:47.858 --> 00:43:49.893 That felt like a significant downsize. 744 00:43:49.893 --> 00:43:53.797 But then halfway through the journey, that trailer frame broke 745 00:43:53.797 --> 00:43:58.802 and we downsized further into a van who we named Vinnie, Vinnie Van Gogh. 746 00:43:59.169 --> 00:43:59.870 Mildly dorky. 747 00:43:59.870 --> 00:44:02.306 [Laughter] No, that’s fun. 748 00:44:02.306 --> 00:44:05.342 Somebody said the other day, “That's the appropriate level of dorky.” 749 00:44:05.609 --> 00:44:08.812 But, you know, so. 750 00:44:08.812 --> 00:44:13.817 So it was this process of letting go of a lot of material things. 751 00:44:13.817 --> 00:44:16.820 And I think along the way, we 752 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.923 we learned that we can live small. 753 00:44:20.224 --> 00:44:24.828 We learned that we loved to be close to nature. 754 00:44:25.262 --> 00:44:30.167 You know, you live in a 82 square foot van, and that pushes you outside more. 755 00:44:30.601 --> 00:44:33.570 You know, we we became- someone once 756 00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:36.607 describe this as, 757 00:44:36.607 --> 00:44:41.278 not wanting to be an indoor creature who goes outside sometimes, 758 00:44:41.278 --> 00:44:45.049 but to be an outdoor creature who sometimes goes in. 759 00:44:45.516 --> 00:44:48.152 And so the van pushed us out. 760 00:44:48.152 --> 00:44:50.521 And so we were out in the world more often. 761 00:44:51.555 --> 00:44:52.156 So we love 762 00:44:52.156 --> 00:44:55.459 to be close to nature, but we also love to be close to 763 00:44:55.926 --> 00:44:59.463 the issues of the day, to be in proximity. 764 00:44:59.463 --> 00:45:04.134 I mean, our methodology, really, was to go to these pain points 765 00:45:04.301 --> 00:45:07.671 in the country to go to the border to talk about immigration; to go 766 00:45:08.439 --> 00:45:11.208 to Mississippi to talk about moving Confederate monuments; 767 00:45:11.208 --> 00:45:15.713 to go to the mouth of the Mississippi to talk about land loss 768 00:45:15.913 --> 00:45:19.450 and environmental issues; and to be in proximity 769 00:45:19.983 --> 00:45:23.754 to the issues and the people who are being directly impacted. 770 00:45:24.455 --> 00:45:29.927 And when you get that close to things and to people, you, you start to see them 771 00:45:29.927 --> 00:45:35.199 in new ways, in, in more complicated ways than what we see presented in, 772 00:45:35.566 --> 00:45:38.802 you know, the, the, the nightly news or in the headlines. 773 00:45:39.002 --> 00:45:42.973 So I learned those things, and I also learned 774 00:45:42.973 --> 00:45:46.777 that I need to stay curious about the world. 775 00:45:46.977 --> 00:45:49.980 I learned really, how much I have to learn. 776 00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:55.886 And so my, my, my, my model of encountering people was rooted 777 00:45:55.886 --> 00:45:59.656 in the belief that I would come away from that conversation 778 00:45:59.957 --> 00:46:02.126 learning something more about the world. 779 00:46:02.126 --> 00:46:05.429 I didn't enter the conversation to tell them everything I knew about the world. 780 00:46:05.696 --> 00:46:09.800 I entered to see if they could expand my view a little bit. 781 00:46:09.833 --> 00:46:12.836 And when you approach the world that way 782 00:46:13.604 --> 00:46:18.308 with curiosity and a willingness to listen and the patience 783 00:46:18.308 --> 00:46:23.280 to keep showing up, it, it it's a whole different approach. 784 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:26.283 And I learned that it's, 785 00:46:26.617 --> 00:46:29.686 you know, it's an approach that works for me. I, I 786 00:46:32.589 --> 00:46:34.458 I've always known this as a photographer, 787 00:46:34.458 --> 00:46:37.728 but this convinced me even more that there's beauty and wisdom 788 00:46:38.295 --> 00:46:40.998 that's that's all around us if we take the time to see it. 789 00:46:40.998 --> 00:46:42.900 And if we take the time to hear it. 790 00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:43.200 You know, 791 00:46:43.200 --> 00:46:46.837 you could turn on the news and believe that we're falling apart at the seams. 792 00:46:47.104 --> 00:46:51.275 But I'll tell you that everywhere we went, we met kind people 793 00:46:51.942 --> 00:46:55.879 and generous people who took good care of us and opened up to us. 794 00:46:56.146 --> 00:47:00.150 And, man, for me, to turn off that TV 795 00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:03.720 and just go out into the world, is a win. 796 00:47:04.254 --> 00:47:05.255 Yeah. 797 00:47:05.255 --> 00:47:08.792 This might be kind of a personal question, and if you don't want to answer it, 798 00:47:08.792 --> 00:47:09.560 you don't have to. 799 00:47:09.560 --> 00:47:14.431 But how did you, how did your wife respond when you said, “Let's hit 800 00:47:14.431 --> 00:47:18.001 the road, let's sell our house and let's hit the road?” Or was it 801 00:47:18.001 --> 00:47:21.672 a mutual decision, or, tell, yeah, tell a little bit about that process. 802 00:47:21.672 --> 00:47:22.339 How did that work? 803 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.109 [Laughs] I will begin by saying it was Karen's idea. 804 00:47:26.109 --> 00:47:28.645 Oh, wow. That's awesome. Noltner: Yeah. 805 00:47:28.645 --> 00:47:33.450 People think that I, I forced Karen to do that, [laughter] but in fact, 806 00:47:33.450 --> 00:47:37.321 it only took me a moment to say yes when she suggested it. 807 00:47:37.321 --> 00:47:42.626 But, so for A Peace of My Mind with my exhibits 808 00:47:42.626 --> 00:47:47.631 and my programing and my lectures, you know, I was traveling a lot. 809 00:47:47.731 --> 00:47:50.701 Our kids were grown. 810 00:47:51.368 --> 00:47:56.240 I think in 2019, before the pandemic, I was on the road 180 days. 811 00:47:56.240 --> 00:47:57.941 So really half of the year. 812 00:47:57.941 --> 00:48:00.844 And we, I mean, Karen and I like each other. 813 00:48:00.844 --> 00:48:04.114 We want, we wanted to spend a little more time together. 814 00:48:04.114 --> 00:48:07.351 This was not ideal and not the reason why we got married. 815 00:48:07.351 --> 00:48:10.921 And as it turns out, she couldn't quit her job. 816 00:48:11.221 --> 00:48:15.359 And then we would buy her own health insurance and we would maintain a home 817 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:16.827 while we went out on the road. 818 00:48:16.827 --> 00:48:20.364 We could do two of those things, but we couldn't do all three of those things. 819 00:48:20.364 --> 00:48:23.400 And so the house- We were sort of done raising our kids. 820 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.103 We weren't in love with mowing the lawn. 821 00:48:26.103 --> 00:48:28.939 And so the house was an easy one to let go. 822 00:48:28.939 --> 00:48:29.673 It was- 823 00:48:30.841 --> 00:48:32.743 We wanted something else in our life anyway. 824 00:48:32.743 --> 00:48:36.513 But she said, you know, if I quit my job, we can buy our own health insurance, 825 00:48:36.513 --> 00:48:39.650 we can sell the house, and we can be together on the road for this thing. 826 00:48:39.883 --> 00:48:41.852 It was also the pandemic. 827 00:48:41.852 --> 00:48:45.689 All of my, all of my programing shut down. 828 00:48:46.023 --> 00:48:48.992 So we were trying to figure out what to do with that time 829 00:48:49.293 --> 00:48:52.930 and realized that I could still do new interviews on the road. 830 00:48:53.563 --> 00:48:57.734 So, Karen will tell you it was John and Karen's journey, 831 00:48:58.035 --> 00:49:02.039 and it's John's project, so she was not coming along on the interview. 832 00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:05.208 She was doing some, some virtual assistant work 833 00:49:05.208 --> 00:49:08.211 for, for some other people helping with some marketing. 834 00:49:08.211 --> 00:49:11.315 And when I would go do the interviews, she would be doing her work. 835 00:49:11.315 --> 00:49:14.718 But then at the end of the day, we'd be able to go explore together. 836 00:49:14.952 --> 00:49:19.022 So it was it was a very easy process. 837 00:49:19.022 --> 00:49:23.226 We both arrived at the decision together. 838 00:49:23.560 --> 00:49:27.664 When the trailer broke, it was Karen's idea to downsize into a van. 839 00:49:27.664 --> 00:49:30.667 I was a little skeptical, but she was right again. 840 00:49:30.867 --> 00:49:35.639 And after driving 93,000 miles, 841 00:49:35.872 --> 00:49:39.076 in 900 days, 842 00:49:39.076 --> 00:49:42.746 across the country, one of her biggest concerns is, “What 843 00:49:42.746 --> 00:49:47.784 if we decide that this is done at different times? 844 00:49:47.784 --> 00:49:52.255 What if one person is sick of this and the other person is still loving it?” 845 00:49:52.255 --> 00:49:55.826 But together we sort of, we sort of 846 00:49:56.426 --> 00:49:58.562 came to that conclusion at the same time we, 847 00:49:58.562 --> 00:50:01.965 we sort of said, “Okay, I think we did this.” Not that we have 848 00:50:01.965 --> 00:50:05.635 exhausted every conversation and issue that is around the country. 849 00:50:06.003 --> 00:50:09.840 You know, you could sit at the border and never exhaust 850 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:13.410 the human stories around the issue of immigration. 851 00:50:13.643 --> 00:50:18.882 But we had felt like we we experienced it and we created a body of work. 852 00:50:18.882 --> 00:50:22.319 And it was it was time to come back home and be in community. 853 00:50:22.686 --> 00:50:25.188 And we arrived at that one together as well. 854 00:50:25.188 --> 00:50:28.158 So I think we were pretty fortunate in that regard. 855 00:50:28.158 --> 00:50:30.027 Your latest book, 856 00:50:30.027 --> 00:50:34.164 Lessons On the Road to Peace, follows those past few years on the road. 857 00:50:34.164 --> 00:50:37.334 And it opens with the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis 858 00:50:37.334 --> 00:50:41.371 and the acknowledgment that it happened only 11 miles from your then home. 859 00:50:41.872 --> 00:50:43.607 And of course, ultimately you and your wife Karen, 860 00:50:43.607 --> 00:50:46.376 selling your home and hitting the road like we just talked about. 861 00:50:46.376 --> 00:50:50.080 Take me back to those moments, and how did it shift you- shift 862 00:50:50.080 --> 00:50:53.383 how you tell stories and ultimately the curation of the book? 863 00:50:54.651 --> 00:50:55.685 Yeah, yeah. 864 00:50:55.685 --> 00:51:00.424 So, you know, it was the pandemic and we were trying to do what we could do 865 00:51:00.424 --> 00:51:05.162 to socially distance and isolate the way we were supposed to do. 866 00:51:05.695 --> 00:51:09.266 And I didn't 867 00:51:09.266 --> 00:51:14.938 hear about George Floyd being killed on the first day, 868 00:51:15.138 --> 00:51:18.141 because I had sort of shut off the news. 869 00:51:18.175 --> 00:51:21.812 I was trying to figure out what to do with my, my 870 00:51:23.580 --> 00:51:26.583 creative worth, my creative self, 871 00:51:27.384 --> 00:51:31.121 how to keep doing A Peace of My Mind in this sort of storytelling, 872 00:51:31.121 --> 00:51:34.925 in this new world where it was, where I couldn't do it the way I used to. 873 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.763 But then when I found out, 874 00:51:40.230 --> 00:51:43.400 about the news, I knew 875 00:51:44.167 --> 00:51:47.671 if A Peace of My Mind was rooted in hearing other people's stories, 876 00:51:48.004 --> 00:51:53.677 I knew if it was a part of trying to be a better ally 877 00:51:53.677 --> 00:51:56.546 and to hear different ways of seeing the world, 878 00:51:56.546 --> 00:51:59.616 I knew that I would have to go to that intersection in some fashion. 879 00:51:59.616 --> 00:52:03.153 So, every day for that first week, 880 00:52:03.386 --> 00:52:08.525 I brought a small studio kit down to that intersection of 38th and Chicago 881 00:52:08.792 --> 00:52:13.330 and just asked people, “What do you want to say?” you know, 882 00:52:13.330 --> 00:52:17.968 and was really just there for listening, and not everybody wanted to talk. 883 00:52:18.268 --> 00:52:19.536 Some people were, were 884 00:52:20.670 --> 00:52:22.839 frustrated and angry and 885 00:52:22.839 --> 00:52:26.643 mourning and grieving, and some privately and some publicly. 886 00:52:26.643 --> 00:52:30.313 But, but over the course of that week, there were 50 people 887 00:52:30.313 --> 00:52:31.648 who did want to share a story. 888 00:52:31.648 --> 00:52:35.018 And it was important, I thought, to be able to listen 889 00:52:35.318 --> 00:52:38.622 and to be able to reflect it back to the community. 890 00:52:40.056 --> 00:52:43.326 Because it was the pandemic, normally I would just have clipboards 891 00:52:43.326 --> 00:52:46.329 and pens and people would write their answer on the thing. 892 00:52:46.329 --> 00:52:48.265 Didn't want to do that with the pandemic. 893 00:52:48.265 --> 00:52:51.801 So I had a little QR code people could scan with their phone 894 00:52:51.801 --> 00:52:55.572 and they could enter their story online, and we could stay 895 00:52:55.572 --> 00:52:59.442 socially distanced and people could keep their masks on if they wanted. 896 00:52:59.442 --> 00:53:01.211 Some people took them off. 897 00:53:01.211 --> 00:53:07.217 Got to the end of that process and realized that there was still a way 898 00:53:07.217 --> 00:53:11.421 to gather new stories, even in the midst of a pandemic. 899 00:53:11.788 --> 00:53:16.259 You know, maybe we could go on the road and I could set up my microphones outside 900 00:53:16.560 --> 00:53:20.430 and we could, you know, sit 15ft apart and we could record stories and, 901 00:53:21.031 --> 00:53:24.467 yeah, maybe there'd be some background environmental noise. 902 00:53:24.467 --> 00:53:25.635 But so what? 903 00:53:25.635 --> 00:53:28.705 And we could still do that, that process. 904 00:53:28.705 --> 00:53:31.708 And so, when you ask what I learned, 905 00:53:32.008 --> 00:53:35.111 I guess I learned that 906 00:53:35.111 --> 00:53:38.114 there was still a creative way to go forward, 907 00:53:38.582 --> 00:53:41.484 even though the world seemed to have shifted around us. 908 00:53:41.484 --> 00:53:44.788 I learned, to be willing to be bold. 909 00:53:45.455 --> 00:53:48.124 To- I had always felt sort of bold. 910 00:53:48.124 --> 00:53:52.696 But now, after being at that intersection and hearing the 911 00:53:53.029 --> 00:53:59.636 the urgency of some of those stories, there was a new sense of being bold 912 00:53:59.636 --> 00:54:03.540 and a willingness to go into these difficult places 913 00:54:03.807 --> 00:54:07.110 to, you know, we set up a studio at the base of a Confederate monument 914 00:54:07.110 --> 00:54:10.247 in Oxford, Mississippi, and ask people, “What does this statue mean to you?” 915 00:54:12.482 --> 00:54:13.950 As a part of listening, 916 00:54:13.950 --> 00:54:16.920 we went to Skid Row to talk about housing security, 917 00:54:17.554 --> 00:54:20.757 where there are, you know, 5 to 8000 people 918 00:54:20.757 --> 00:54:23.760 who are unhoused in a 50 square block area. 919 00:54:23.827 --> 00:54:28.832 To, to be willing to walk into those spaces and find people 920 00:54:28.832 --> 00:54:33.303 who are looking for creative solutions to these really difficult issues 921 00:54:33.303 --> 00:54:36.306 and believe that something better is possible. 922 00:54:37.607 --> 00:54:40.644 Toward the end of the book, you share the questions 923 00:54:40.644 --> 00:54:43.680 that you've asked participants, and I'm not going to read them all here. 924 00:54:43.680 --> 00:54:45.448 People need to get a copy of your book, right? 925 00:54:45.448 --> 00:54:47.450 Yeah, they got to get the book if they want that, right? 926 00:54:47.450 --> 00:54:49.619 To, to to see what those questions are. 927 00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:52.622 But I do want to ask you one of those questions. 928 00:54:52.722 --> 00:54:53.590 What gives you hope? 929 00:54:58.728 --> 00:55:00.363 What gives me hope 930 00:55:00.363 --> 00:55:04.367 is people who choose 931 00:55:05.168 --> 00:55:08.672 connection and healing in their life 932 00:55:09.606 --> 00:55:12.609 in the midst of difficult situations. 933 00:55:12.876 --> 00:55:15.445 What gives me hope is, 934 00:55:15.445 --> 00:55:18.448 people who choose love 935 00:55:18.481 --> 00:55:21.484 when hate would come easily, 936 00:55:23.353 --> 00:55:25.355 people who take their own 937 00:55:25.355 --> 00:55:28.358 struggles in life and 938 00:55:29.092 --> 00:55:33.063 find a way through it but go one step further 939 00:55:33.063 --> 00:55:36.933 and use that experience to shine a light for others 940 00:55:36.933 --> 00:55:40.704 behind them on the path, so that they can find a way through too. 941 00:55:41.338 --> 00:55:43.873 And these, I mean, these are my people. 942 00:55:43.873 --> 00:55:46.443 These are the folks that I gravitate towards. 943 00:55:46.443 --> 00:55:50.313 I don't care when I'm interviewing people, I don't care 944 00:55:50.313 --> 00:55:53.950 politics, I don't care faith, I don't care gender, class, whatever. 945 00:55:54.517 --> 00:55:57.520 I care about, 946 00:55:58.621 --> 00:55:59.356 I care about 947 00:55:59.356 --> 00:56:03.760 finding people who, instead of focusing on why things are hard, 948 00:56:04.294 --> 00:56:07.597 I'm not afraid of looking at why things are hard, but I also want to 949 00:56:07.597 --> 00:56:10.767 look at how things are possible. 950 00:56:11.501 --> 00:56:11.735 Yeah. 951 00:56:11.735 --> 00:56:15.105 So let's honestly reckon with and face and address the 952 00:56:15.138 --> 00:56:17.574 the very real challenges that we're facing. 953 00:56:17.574 --> 00:56:21.511 But but can we find a way to approach those challenges 954 00:56:21.511 --> 00:56:25.749 with a grace and a hope and a belief that something better is possible? 955 00:56:25.982 --> 00:56:29.085 When I'm in that space, that's what gives me hope. 956 00:56:29.386 --> 00:56:33.089 That's a really beautiful testament to the stories 957 00:56:33.089 --> 00:56:36.459 and the work that you've done these last 15 years. 958 00:56:36.826 --> 00:56:40.263 What's next on your- Noltner: And let me, let me just jump in and say to that, that 959 00:56:40.330 --> 00:56:44.734 in certain ways this is like super greedy and super self-serving 960 00:56:44.734 --> 00:56:50.039 because when I'm interviewing people like that, that feeds me, that sustains me. 961 00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:55.678 And when I feel frustrated or a little hopeless in the world, 962 00:56:56.112 --> 00:56:59.816 I, I go out and I do another interview 963 00:56:59.816 --> 00:57:02.018 with someone like this, and that's what keeps me going. 964 00:57:03.153 --> 00:57:06.156 So if it sounds like altruism, some of that self-serving too. 965 00:57:06.456 --> 00:57:08.158 Yeah, I love that, though. 966 00:57:08.158 --> 00:57:10.760 I mean, it's a give and a take, right? 967 00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:12.228 In many ways. 968 00:57:12.228 --> 00:57:13.496 What's next on your journey? 969 00:57:13.496 --> 00:57:16.299 Anything you can share with our listeners? 970 00:57:16.299 --> 00:57:19.436 Yeah, I don't exactly know what this is going to look like, 971 00:57:19.436 --> 00:57:24.541 but I do know that we're going to lean into some international storytelling. 972 00:57:24.674 --> 00:57:25.141 Awesome. 973 00:57:25.141 --> 00:57:29.179 I've done I've done sort of our studio process on, on four continents. 974 00:57:29.179 --> 00:57:34.384 I've been in Bangkok, Thailand, and in Lima, Peru, and in Nairobi, Kenya. 975 00:57:34.384 --> 00:57:40.323 But what I really want to do is go sit in a place for several weeks 976 00:57:40.323 --> 00:57:44.627 and, and learn from different cultures’ experiences. 977 00:57:44.627 --> 00:57:48.231 So I really I want to go to Rwanda 978 00:57:48.231 --> 00:57:51.734 and I want to talk about ways that they have moved through their genocide. 979 00:57:52.168 --> 00:57:55.705 I want to go to Northern Ireland to talk about ways 980 00:57:55.705 --> 00:57:59.676 they've moved through their sectarian violence and ways they haven’t, right? 981 00:57:59.676 --> 00:58:02.879 This is not resolved. This is not complete. 982 00:58:03.146 --> 00:58:05.315 There are still struggles with it. 983 00:58:06.850 --> 00:58:08.184 I at- 984 00:58:08.184 --> 00:58:12.322 someday I'm going to go to Israel and, and Palestine. 985 00:58:12.322 --> 00:58:17.460 And now is not the time for me because I'm not a, I'm not a combat photographer, 986 00:58:17.727 --> 00:58:21.731 and I don't know how to do- I don't know how to work in that space. 987 00:58:22.031 --> 00:58:24.434 And I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to work in that space. 988 00:58:24.434 --> 00:58:30.173 But we are talking about going to Germany, to Leipzig, 989 00:58:30.173 --> 00:58:34.944 to which is the former East Germany, where they're really struggling 990 00:58:34.944 --> 00:58:39.249 with the rise of anti-Semitism, and Islamophobia, 991 00:58:39.482 --> 00:58:43.820 and to, to sit in that space and talk about how they're finding 992 00:58:44.954 --> 00:58:47.590 a common vision through some of that struggle. 993 00:58:47.590 --> 00:58:49.225 And so 994 00:58:49.225 --> 00:58:52.395 the goal is to visit places who have navigated conflict 995 00:58:52.395 --> 00:58:56.332 better or worse or, historically or presently, 996 00:58:56.533 --> 00:59:00.403 and try to take away some lessons from that as well. 997 00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:05.041 So I, I thought we were going to start that in a year or so, but now 998 00:59:05.275 --> 00:59:08.778 there are some rumblings and some doors that are opening as early as this summer. 999 00:59:08.778 --> 00:59:12.482 So if those doors open, I am not going to say no. 1000 00:59:12.682 --> 00:59:13.182 Yeah. 1001 00:59:13.182 --> 00:59:14.684 When they open, you go through them. 1002 00:59:14.684 --> 00:59:16.519 [Laughs] Noltner: You say yes. Yup. 1003 00:59:17.654 --> 00:59:19.689 Lastly, the work we do here at the Facing 1004 00:59:19.689 --> 00:59:23.426 Project, as you know, is to create a more understanding and empathetic world. 1005 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.230 This season, I'm asking each of my guests the same question, 1006 00:59:27.230 --> 00:59:30.233 and I'd love for you to add your perspective. 1007 00:59:30.333 --> 00:59:34.704 How do we create a more empathetic world in a time when it feels like listening 1008 00:59:34.704 --> 00:59:38.241 and understanding the lives of others has actually decreased? 1009 00:59:42.111 --> 00:59:42.378 You know, 1010 00:59:42.378 --> 00:59:46.549 I have a friend, Joe Davis, who's a spoken word artist, 1011 00:59:46.549 --> 00:59:51.588 and he says that we do best what we do 1012 00:59:51.621 --> 00:59:55.224 most, which is to say we got to practice. 1013 00:59:55.558 --> 00:59:57.327 We've got to exercise those muscles. 1014 00:59:57.327 --> 01:00:01.197 If you want to be good at free throws, shoot 10,000 free throws. 1015 01:00:01.197 --> 01:00:04.867 If you want to be good at conversations around division, 1016 01:00:05.301 --> 01:00:09.005 you got to have a bunch of conversations around division. 1017 01:00:09.005 --> 01:00:13.943 And when when those muscles are weak, and I really think collectively 1018 01:00:13.943 --> 01:00:18.748 they are weak right now, we lean into conflict before we lean into compassion. 1019 01:00:18.748 --> 01:00:23.286 We choose division before we choose healing. 1020 01:00:24.020 --> 01:00:27.023 And I think we just have to practice those conversations in the- 1021 01:00:27.457 --> 01:00:30.460 You know, if you're talking about race or if you're talking about gender, 1022 01:00:30.460 --> 01:00:34.130 if you're talking about orientation, whatever it is, 1023 01:00:34.831 --> 01:00:37.500 if you haven't had one of those conversations, it's 1024 01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:40.903 probably going to be weird the first time you do, right? 1025 01:00:40.937 --> 01:00:43.906 You're not going to you're not going to do it great, probably, 1026 01:00:43.906 --> 01:00:48.177 if if you're like me, if you're like everybody, you're going to struggle. 1027 01:00:48.177 --> 01:00:52.849 But if you have some patience with that process, right? 1028 01:00:52.849 --> 01:00:54.651 Sometimes we have one of those conversations 1029 01:00:54.651 --> 01:00:58.187 and it goes badly and we run away and say, oh my God, I'm never doing that again. 1030 01:00:58.488 --> 01:01:01.290 But if we can have the courage 1031 01:01:01.290 --> 01:01:04.494 to come back and do it again, well, maybe you learn something. 1032 01:01:05.028 --> 01:01:08.031 Maybe by the time you've done ten of them, 1033 01:01:08.197 --> 01:01:11.200 it'll start to be a little more comfortable. 1034 01:01:11.234 --> 01:01:15.872 Maybe by the time you've done 30 of them, you've got some level of, 1035 01:01:15.972 --> 01:01:19.509 some capacity for doing it a little bit better. 1036 01:01:19.709 --> 01:01:21.010 If you do a thousand of them, 1037 01:01:21.010 --> 01:01:24.013 you're going to start to develop those muscles and those skills. 1038 01:01:24.213 --> 01:01:27.016 And I think we- it takes 1039 01:01:27.016 --> 01:01:30.019 courage to keep showing up and practicing that. 1040 01:01:30.319 --> 01:01:32.955 And man, if we could have a little bit of grace with one 1041 01:01:32.955 --> 01:01:36.392 another as we are practicing that and understand 1042 01:01:36.392 --> 01:01:40.029 that there are going to be missteps and, and, you know, maybe that 1043 01:01:40.196 --> 01:01:44.067 maybe that wasn't, an assault, but it was just a misunderstanding. 1044 01:01:44.333 --> 01:01:48.404 You know, maybe if we can find a little bit of grace and open that space, 1045 01:01:48.604 --> 01:01:51.607 we can all feel a little bit more comfortable 1046 01:01:51.741 --> 01:01:55.678 doing that, and that, I mean, these divisions 1047 01:01:55.678 --> 01:02:00.983 and divides took a long time to to develop and grow. 1048 01:02:02.018 --> 01:02:04.253 They're not going to go away overnight. 1049 01:02:04.253 --> 01:02:08.191 We have to re-weave the social fabric. 1050 01:02:08.591 --> 01:02:11.394 There's a group called Weave the Social Fabric Project, 1051 01:02:11.394 --> 01:02:13.129 and they're they're one of these bridge 1052 01:02:13.129 --> 01:02:16.132 building organizations that you were talking about earlier. 1053 01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:21.437 And they're all about small grassroots efforts 1054 01:02:21.471 --> 01:02:25.808 to re-weave that trust that is so badly frayed in our country. 1055 01:02:26.342 --> 01:02:30.146 And I hope that people will be willing to do the hard work 1056 01:02:30.146 --> 01:02:33.149 and to have some patience in the process. 1057 01:02:33.683 --> 01:02:36.652 John Noltner, award winning photographer, author and founder 1058 01:02:36.652 --> 01:02:40.123 of A Peace of My Mind, thank you so much for joining me on the Facing Project. 1059 01:02:40.990 --> 01:02:41.924 Thanks for having me J.R.. 1060 01:02:41.924 --> 01:02:44.460 Great to talk with you. Jamison: Same. 1061 01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:47.196 Learn more about John Noltner and A Peace of My Mind, 1062 01:02:47.196 --> 01:02:51.701 including books and upcoming events, at APOMM.net. 1063 01:02:51.701 --> 01:02:56.539 [Theme music] 1064 01:02:56.639 --> 01:03:00.143 Many thanks once again to John Noltner for joining me on today's show. 1065 01:03:00.476 --> 01:03:04.947 To listen to past episodes of this program, visit 1066 01:03:04.947 --> 01:03:08.918 IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject, or find us on your favorite podcasting 1067 01:03:08.918 --> 01:03:13.656 app, or just ask your smart speaker to play The Facing Project on NPR. 1068 01:03:14.190 --> 01:03:16.793 To continue the conversation about this episode, 1069 01:03:16.793 --> 01:03:20.596 find us on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The Facing Project. 1070 01:03:21.030 --> 01:03:24.634 The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State 1071 01:03:24.634 --> 01:03:29.105 University in beautiful and wonderful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced 1072 01:03:29.105 --> 01:03:33.242 by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. 1073 01:03:33.609 --> 01:03:36.612 The show is distributed nationally through PRX. 1074 01:03:36.779 --> 01:03:38.347 I'm your host, J.R. 1075 01:03:38.347 --> 01:03:41.484 Jamison, and until next time, I wish you the courage 1076 01:03:41.484 --> 01:03:44.620 to share your own story in the empathy to listen to others. 1077 01:03:44.620 --> 01:03:44.987 [Theme music fades to silence]