WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.140 --> 00:00:02.739 What if someone you know said they 2 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:04.739 went to heaven and came 3 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:05.858 back? 4 00:00:05.859 --> 00:00:07.779 They tell you they were wrapped in 5 00:00:07.780 --> 00:00:09.779 light, love, and met 6 00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:11.619 God. Would you call it a 7 00:00:11.620 --> 00:00:12.659 hallucination? 8 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:13.459 A dream? 9 00:00:13.460 --> 00:00:15.140 Maybe wishful thinking. 10 00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:18.819 When a neurosurgeon said he 11 00:00:18.820 --> 00:00:20.979 saw the afterlife while in a coma, 12 00:00:20.980 --> 00:00:23.059 he got a lot of pushback. 13 00:00:23.060 --> 00:00:24.899 Skeptics said his celestial 14 00:00:24.900 --> 00:00:26.499 journey was no miracle. 15 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:28.019 It was a chemical trick of the 16 00:00:28.020 --> 00:00:30.179 brain. And these skeptics pointed 17 00:00:30.180 --> 00:00:32.099 to a specific molecule. 18 00:00:32.100 --> 00:00:33.379 DMT. 19 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:35.459 It is known to induce profound, 20 00:00:35.460 --> 00:00:37.299 sometimes frightening psychedelic 21 00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:39.379 experiences, and our own 22 00:00:39.380 --> 00:00:41.619 bodies can make it. 23 00:00:41.620 --> 00:00:44.019 So, today on the show, 24 00:00:44.020 --> 00:00:45.939 reporter Haleema Shah looks at 25 00:00:45.940 --> 00:00:48.419 DMT and death. 26 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:50.739 I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross, 27 00:00:50.740 --> 00:00:52.340 and this is Altered States. 28 00:00:57.810 --> 00:00:59.649 This summer, I spoke to a 29 00:00:59.650 --> 00:01:01.889 man who saw, embraced, 30 00:01:01.890 --> 00:01:04.169 and no longer fears death. 31 00:01:04.170 --> 00:01:05.290 Death is an adventure. 32 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:09.279 This is Dr. Eben Alexander. 33 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:10.799 I met him near his home in 34 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:12.559 Charlottesville, Virginia. 35 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:14.399 He walks into the room with a long 36 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:16.399 stride and a head of graying 37 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:17.279 hair. 38 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:19.759 He says he witnessed the afterlife 39 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:21.389 and came back. 40 00:01:21.390 --> 00:01:23.229 I'm seventy one years old and 41 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.149 I live my life as an 42 00:01:25.150 --> 00:01:27.069 eternal soul who has a 43 00:01:27.070 --> 00:01:29.149 purpose to bring love and kindness 44 00:01:29.150 --> 00:01:31.069 and compassion and mercy 45 00:01:31.070 --> 00:01:32.489 to this world. 46 00:01:32.490 --> 00:01:34.409 At 71, Eben tells his 47 00:01:34.410 --> 00:01:36.409 story as someone who was lost, 48 00:01:36.410 --> 00:01:37.609 then found. 49 00:01:37.610 --> 00:01:39.448 He was adopted and raised by a 50 00:01:39.449 --> 00:01:41.129 family that attended a Methodist 51 00:01:41.130 --> 00:01:43.368 church. He grew up to be a promising 52 00:01:43.369 --> 00:01:45.529 student, then a skydiver, 53 00:01:45.530 --> 00:01:48.409 then a Harvard-trained neurosurgeon, 54 00:01:48.410 --> 00:01:50.329 who still longed for his birth 55 00:01:50.330 --> 00:01:51.288 family. 56 00:01:51.289 --> 00:01:53.209 As an adult, Eben's belief 57 00:01:53.210 --> 00:01:55.049 in the observable, measurable, 58 00:01:55.050 --> 00:01:57.049 and material deepened. 59 00:01:57.050 --> 00:01:58.889 He stopped praying, he 60 00:01:58.890 --> 00:01:59.769 says. 61 00:01:59.770 --> 00:02:01.689 But in 2008, when he was in his 62 00:02:01.690 --> 00:02:03.529 50s, something happened that 63 00:02:03.530 --> 00:02:05.369 made Eben more than a man of 64 00:02:05.370 --> 00:02:06.370 science. 65 00:02:07.350 --> 00:02:09.189 I'm known for having had a 66 00:02:09.190 --> 00:02:11.268 near death experience during a week 67 00:02:11.269 --> 00:02:13.509 long case of severe bacterial 68 00:02:13.510 --> 00:02:15.429 meningitis, a case that 69 00:02:15.430 --> 00:02:17.039 should have killed me. 70 00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:18.879 He was hospitalized for over a 71 00:02:18.880 --> 00:02:20.719 week and spent most of it in 72 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:21.849 a coma. 73 00:02:21.850 --> 00:02:23.929 And yet, during that week in coma 74 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:25.449 I had a profound spiritual 75 00:02:25.450 --> 00:02:26.519 experience. 76 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:28.279 An experience that he would come to 77 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:29.959 understand as a near-death 78 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:32.359 experience, or NDE. 79 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:34.119 They're often characterized by a 80 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:36.279 tunnel, bright light, and encounters 81 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.119 with spiritual beings. 82 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:39.959 NDEs happen when someone is 83 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:41.799 near death or is pronounced 84 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.959 dead, but survives. 85 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:45.719 Imagine someone who experiences 86 00:02:45.720 --> 00:02:46.999 cardiac arrest. 87 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.919 When their heart stops beating and 88 00:02:48.920 --> 00:02:51.319 their body lies still, a bystander 89 00:02:51.320 --> 00:02:54.039 might step in and administer CPR. 90 00:02:54.040 --> 00:02:56.119 The heart restarts, but the 91 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:59.079 person remains unconscious. 92 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:01.239 Nearly 20% of cardiac 93 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:03.399 arrest survivors say that during 94 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:05.159 that time they experience a 95 00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:06.760 mystical, lucid journey. 96 00:03:08.050 --> 00:03:10.049 What I went through in my NDE, the 97 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.049 ultra reality of it, was far 98 00:03:12.050 --> 00:03:14.049 beyond anything I've ever 99 00:03:14.050 --> 00:03:15.089 experienced in my life. 100 00:03:18.579 --> 00:03:20.178 Eben decided to write about it and 101 00:03:20.179 --> 00:03:22.018 told the world how he, a 102 00:03:22.019 --> 00:03:24.018 scientist, found proof 103 00:03:24.019 --> 00:03:25.379 of heaven. 104 00:03:25.380 --> 00:03:27.219 That was also the title of his New 105 00:03:27.220 --> 00:03:29.059 York Times bestselling book, 106 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:30.979 and it took the media by storm. 107 00:03:32.290 --> 00:03:33.889 2020 continues. 108 00:03:33.890 --> 00:03:35.959 Is there proof of heaven? 109 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:37.739 He was on Primetime News. 110 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:38.939 Well, I'd been to heaven. 111 00:03:38.940 --> 00:03:40.779 I mean, absolutely the 112 00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:42.779 most remarkable 113 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:44.619 experience and and for me 114 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:46.219 the amazing thing was that I had 115 00:03:46.220 --> 00:03:48.139 this rich experience while my 116 00:03:48.140 --> 00:03:50.139 brain was completely 117 00:03:50.140 --> 00:03:51.980 shut down, soaking in pus. 118 00:03:53.180 --> 00:03:55.569 His trip started off ethereal. 119 00:03:55.570 --> 00:03:57.889 I was rescued by this beautiful, 120 00:03:57.890 --> 00:03:59.729 spinning white light that had 121 00:03:59.730 --> 00:04:01.569 a a melody, indescribably 122 00:04:01.570 --> 00:04:03.329 beautiful melody with it, that 123 00:04:03.330 --> 00:04:05.409 opened up into a bright 124 00:04:05.410 --> 00:04:06.369 valley. 125 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:08.289 And I had no body awareness, but 126 00:04:08.290 --> 00:04:10.129 I was moving up through it because 127 00:04:10.130 --> 00:04:12.289 I was a speck on a butterfly 128 00:04:12.290 --> 00:04:13.290 wing. 129 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:15.239 There was someone on the butterfly 130 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:16.439 wing with him. 131 00:04:16.440 --> 00:04:17.440 A girl. 132 00:04:19.750 --> 00:04:21.189 I'll never forget the way she was 133 00:04:21.190 --> 00:04:22.469 sitting, the way she was dressed, 134 00:04:22.470 --> 00:04:24.229 the way she looked at me. 135 00:04:24.230 --> 00:04:26.069 And she looked at me with this very 136 00:04:26.070 --> 00:04:27.519 loving smile. 137 00:04:27.520 --> 00:04:29.358 Eben says she was a biological 138 00:04:29.359 --> 00:04:31.519 sister he'd never met. 139 00:04:31.520 --> 00:04:33.839 She guided him through this realm 140 00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:35.969 and she gave him a message. 141 00:04:35.970 --> 00:04:37.809 You are deeply loved 142 00:04:37.810 --> 00:04:40.609 and cherished forever. 143 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:43.619 You have nothing to fear. 144 00:04:43.620 --> 00:04:44.620 He heard something. 145 00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:48.059 I heard that sound of Om, 146 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:49.979 that eternal resonance of 147 00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:51.660 all of infinity and eternity. 148 00:04:52.710 --> 00:04:54.069 During his voyage through the 149 00:04:54.070 --> 00:04:55.908 heavens, Eben was just a 150 00:04:55.909 --> 00:04:57.829 soul in its happy place. 151 00:04:57.830 --> 00:04:59.668 But on his hospital bed, 152 00:04:59.669 --> 00:05:01.749 he was surrounded by family praying 153 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:03.269 for his return. 154 00:05:03.270 --> 00:05:05.108 He couldn't hear them, but 155 00:05:05.109 --> 00:05:07.749 one face and voice got through. 156 00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:10.079 It was his 10-year-old son. 157 00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:11.279 He's telling me, Daddy, you're gonna 158 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:12.718 be okay. Daddy you're gonna be okay. 159 00:05:12.719 --> 00:05:13.839 Daddy, you're gonna be okay. 160 00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:15.759 As if it he said it enough, it would 161 00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:17.279 work. I didn't even remember what a 162 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:18.399 father and son were. 163 00:05:18.400 --> 00:05:19.679 I didn't recognize him, but there 164 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:20.879 was something about the connection 165 00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:22.959 between us. When I saw him pleading 166 00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:24.639 with me, I knew I had to come back. 167 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:31.179 When Eben returned to what he calls 168 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:33.179 the earthly realm, something else 169 00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:34.139 happened. 170 00:05:34.140 --> 00:05:36.139 He made a full recovery from 171 00:05:36.140 --> 00:05:37.419 his coma. 172 00:05:37.420 --> 00:05:39.019 But he'd changed. 173 00:05:39.020 --> 00:05:41.019 He was suddenly a spiritual man 174 00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:43.099 embraced by an all-encompassing 175 00:05:43.100 --> 00:05:44.219 deity. 176 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:46.060 He was talking about Om. 177 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:50.379 And I guess the reason I used Om 178 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:52.219 as the identifier for that 179 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:54.059 God force was to me the 180 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:55.819 word God when I came back from my 181 00:05:55.820 --> 00:05:57.979 NDE was a puny human 182 00:05:57.980 --> 00:05:59.659 word with a lot of baggage. 183 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:01.659 And I recognized that, 184 00:06:01.660 --> 00:06:03.259 you know, it was not about this 185 00:06:03.260 --> 00:06:05.259 debate about God, Allah, Brahman, 186 00:06:05.260 --> 00:06:07.019 Vishnu, Jehovah, Yahweh, Great 187 00:06:07.020 --> 00:06:08.299 Spirit, but actually an 188 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:09.900 acknowledgement of the commonality. 189 00:06:12.450 --> 00:06:14.369 Eben has a prophetic answer to 190 00:06:14.370 --> 00:06:16.209 a question that's probably as old as 191 00:06:16.210 --> 00:06:17.249 humanity. 192 00:06:17.250 --> 00:06:19.489 What happens when we die? 193 00:06:19.490 --> 00:06:21.249 People have answered these questions 194 00:06:21.250 --> 00:06:23.089 by turning to religion, science, and 195 00:06:23.090 --> 00:06:24.529 clairvoyance. 196 00:06:24.530 --> 00:06:26.609 I have distinct childhood memories 197 00:06:26.610 --> 00:06:28.769 of a psychic medium with a peroxide 198 00:06:28.770 --> 00:06:29.809 blonde bob. 199 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:31.649 She had heavily lined eyes 200 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:33.649 that didn't blink much, and her name 201 00:06:33.650 --> 00:06:35.089 was Sylvia Brown. 202 00:06:35.090 --> 00:06:36.848 She shared the stage with Montel 203 00:06:36.849 --> 00:06:38.549 Williams and Larry King. 204 00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:39.669 You communicate with dead people. 205 00:06:39.670 --> 00:06:39.989 Yes. 206 00:06:39.990 --> 00:06:41.029 You do psychic readings. 207 00:06:41.030 --> 00:06:41.509 Yes. 208 00:06:41.510 --> 00:06:43.189 You work with the police on murders 209 00:06:43.190 --> 00:06:44.229 and message. 210 00:06:44.230 --> 00:06:45.429 What do you believe happens when you 211 00:06:45.430 --> 00:06:46.549 die? 212 00:06:46.550 --> 00:06:47.989 You go through the tunnel and you go 213 00:06:47.990 --> 00:06:49.109 to the other side and it's a 214 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:51.589 beautiful place with actual 215 00:06:51.590 --> 00:06:53.669 buildings and art 216 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:55.289 museums and 217 00:06:55.290 --> 00:06:56.809 This was the 2000s. 218 00:06:56.810 --> 00:06:58.329 My grandmother was on one of her 219 00:06:58.330 --> 00:07:00.489 visits to the US from Pakistan, 220 00:07:00.490 --> 00:07:02.649 and I remember she once suggested 221 00:07:02.650 --> 00:07:04.489 that my mom ask Sylvia 222 00:07:04.490 --> 00:07:06.329 about my late father. 223 00:07:06.330 --> 00:07:08.009 The idea had crossed my roughly 224 00:07:08.010 --> 00:07:09.769 nine-year-old mind too. 225 00:07:09.770 --> 00:07:12.169 And then I quietly wondered, 226 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:15.209 can Sylvia talk to dead Muslims? 227 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:17.049 But to believe the unbelievable, 228 00:07:17.050 --> 00:07:18.969 people need the right messenger. 229 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:21.129 Sylvia spoke the language of daytime 230 00:07:21.130 --> 00:07:23.049 TV and the paranormal. 231 00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:25.129 Eben is fluent in languages 232 00:07:25.130 --> 00:07:27.049 that carry far more weight in 233 00:07:27.050 --> 00:07:29.369 Christianity 234 00:07:29.370 --> 00:07:31.099 and science. 235 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:33.179 The quote I often give to explain 236 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:35.179 exactly the transformation I 237 00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:36.379 had as a scientist. 238 00:07:36.380 --> 00:07:38.299 It's a quote from Werner Heisenberg, 239 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:40.139 who won the Nobel Prize, 240 00:07:40.140 --> 00:07:42.299 and he said that the first gulp 241 00:07:42.300 --> 00:07:44.059 from the glass of natural sciences 242 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:45.819 will lead you towards atheism, but 243 00:07:45.820 --> 00:07:47.339 at the bottom of the glass God is 244 00:07:47.340 --> 00:07:48.699 waiting for you. 245 00:07:48.700 --> 00:07:50.379 That quote is contested. 246 00:07:50.380 --> 00:07:52.139 Heisenberg's children don't think 247 00:07:52.140 --> 00:07:54.139 their dad said that, but the idea 248 00:07:54.140 --> 00:07:56.379 rang true with Eben anyway. 249 00:07:56.380 --> 00:07:58.299 His NDE led him to make 250 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:00.379 the case for an eternal spirit, 251 00:08:00.380 --> 00:08:02.619 or consciousness, or mind. 252 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:04.939 He argues that consciousness 253 00:08:04.940 --> 00:08:07.019 is not a byproduct of the physical 254 00:08:07.020 --> 00:08:09.019 brain. It can exist without 255 00:08:09.020 --> 00:08:10.409 our bodies. 256 00:08:10.410 --> 00:08:12.249 Our souls do not cease to exist 257 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:13.289 when the body dies. 258 00:08:13.290 --> 00:08:15.449 In fact, our souls and our awareness 259 00:08:15.450 --> 00:08:18.009 expands, it becomes much grander. 260 00:08:18.010 --> 00:08:19.929 And to me, that 261 00:08:19.930 --> 00:08:22.109 is something we can call heaven. 262 00:08:22.110 --> 00:08:23.949 Belief in an afterlife and an 263 00:08:23.950 --> 00:08:26.029 everlasting soul is a heresy 264 00:08:26.030 --> 00:08:28.269 for many scientists, especially 265 00:08:28.270 --> 00:08:30.509 the materialists, who believe 266 00:08:30.510 --> 00:08:32.349 matter is the source of all that 267 00:08:32.350 --> 00:08:34.429 is real, and our material 268 00:08:34.430 --> 00:08:36.589 brains create consciousness. 269 00:08:36.590 --> 00:08:39.119 But Eben doesn't buy that anymore. 270 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.798 The brain and mind are obviously m 271 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.718 tightly interconnected, but 272 00:08:42.719 --> 00:08:44.879 the mistake we've made in science 273 00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:46.559 in physicalist or materialist 274 00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:48.799 science is thinking that only 275 00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:50.879 the physical world exists 276 00:08:50.880 --> 00:08:52.479 and the stuff we can measure in the 277 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:53.679 physical world is the only thing 278 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:55.438 relevant to science, and that is a 279 00:08:55.439 --> 00:08:57.259 tremendous error. 280 00:08:57.260 --> 00:08:59.019 Skeptics rolled their eyes at his 281 00:08:59.020 --> 00:09:01.099 so-called proof of heaven. 282 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:02.779 They questioned how much he knew 283 00:09:02.780 --> 00:09:04.539 about death since he was only nearly 284 00:09:04.540 --> 00:09:06.299 dead. They challenged his 285 00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:07.579 credibility. 286 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:09.818 In 2013, an Esquire 287 00:09:09.819 --> 00:09:11.259 reporter found a series of 288 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:13.979 malpractice cases against Eben. 289 00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:16.139 He settled five over an 11 290 00:09:16.140 --> 00:09:17.818 year period. 291 00:09:17.819 --> 00:09:19.818 To Eben's skeptics, this 292 00:09:19.819 --> 00:09:21.899 was a disgraced doctor seeking 293 00:09:21.900 --> 00:09:23.659 to reinvent himself. 294 00:09:26.060 --> 00:09:28.859 Scientists don't understand NDEs. 295 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:30.699 The typical medical explanation 296 00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:32.619 is that the unconscious person 297 00:09:32.620 --> 00:09:35.179 was in a hallucinatory or dreamlike 298 00:09:35.180 --> 00:09:37.019 state. That their brain was on 299 00:09:37.020 --> 00:09:39.179 low power mode, too weak 300 00:09:39.180 --> 00:09:41.099 to respond to stimuli, but 301 00:09:41.100 --> 00:09:43.099 active enough to draw on memories 302 00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:45.499 and prior beliefs. 303 00:09:45.500 --> 00:09:47.499 But Eben says his brain 304 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:49.959 was too damaged to make this up. 305 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:51.719 These bacteria were devouring my 306 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:53.239 brain. They'd already eaten all the 307 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.239 glucose in my cerebrospinal 308 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:56.519 fluid, and they were really 309 00:09:56.520 --> 00:09:57.959 attacking the brain. 310 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.959 There was no part of the neocortex 311 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:01.879 spared that might have offered up 312 00:10:01.880 --> 00:10:03.799 any kind of dream or hallucination 313 00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:06.039 or phenomenal conscious experience. 314 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:07.799 Not only that, my brain stem was 315 00:10:07.800 --> 00:10:09.639 badly damaged from the get-go. 316 00:10:10.800 --> 00:10:12.718 If his comatose brain was too weak 317 00:10:12.719 --> 00:10:14.799 to conjure a trip to the afterlife, 318 00:10:14.800 --> 00:10:16.799 his almost comatose brain might 319 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:17.999 not have been. 320 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:19.919 There were plenty of critiques and 321 00:10:19.920 --> 00:10:21.599 theories about Eben's NDE. 322 00:10:25.130 --> 00:10:27.129 Early on when I went public with 323 00:10:27.130 --> 00:10:29.769 this, Sam Harris criticized 324 00:10:29.770 --> 00:10:31.688 my telling of my experience and said 325 00:10:31.689 --> 00:10:33.529 Alexander obviously had a DMT 326 00:10:33.530 --> 00:10:35.439 experience, you know, case close. 327 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.279 That theory was probably the most 328 00:10:37.280 --> 00:10:38.479 interesting one. 329 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.559 Sam Harris, a neuroscientist 330 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:42.159 and prominent figure of the New 331 00:10:42.160 --> 00:10:44.079 Atheist Movement, wrote about it on 332 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.039 his blog. 333 00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:46.559 But you might know him from his 334 00:10:46.560 --> 00:10:48.959 viral debates with religious people. 335 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:50.639 If you wake up tomorrow morning 336 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:52.479 thinking that saying a few Latin 337 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.399 words over your pancakes is 338 00:10:54.400 --> 00:10:55.599 going to turn them into the body of 339 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:57.759 Elvis Presley, 340 00:10:57.760 --> 00:10:59.280 you have lost your mind. 341 00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:02.079 But if you think more or less the 342 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:03.759 same thing about a cracker and the 343 00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:05.119 body of Jesus, you're just a 344 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:06.120 Catholic. 345 00:11:09.410 --> 00:11:11.328 He said, Eben's NDE 346 00:11:11.329 --> 00:11:13.169 bore an uncanny resemblance to 347 00:11:13.170 --> 00:11:15.409 a psychedelic trip with DMT, 348 00:11:15.410 --> 00:11:17.489 or dimethyltryptamine, 349 00:11:17.490 --> 00:11:19.249 the psychoactive ingredient in 350 00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:20.688 ayahuasca. 351 00:11:20.689 --> 00:11:22.529 It induces short, 352 00:11:22.530 --> 00:11:25.009 mystical, and sometimes terrifying 353 00:11:25.010 --> 00:11:26.448 experiences. 354 00:11:26.449 --> 00:11:28.688 And while an Amazonian shaman 355 00:11:28.689 --> 00:11:30.849 might extract it from local plants, 356 00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:32.769 you don't need to go quite so far 357 00:11:32.770 --> 00:11:34.849 to find DMT. 358 00:11:34.850 --> 00:11:37.009 It exists inside our own 359 00:11:37.010 --> 00:11:38.129 bodies. 360 00:11:38.130 --> 00:11:40.129 Scientists find these homegrown 361 00:11:40.130 --> 00:11:41.969 chemicals in the blood, 362 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:44.848 plasma, urine, cerebrospinal 363 00:11:44.849 --> 00:11:46.848 fluid, even the brain and 364 00:11:46.849 --> 00:11:48.448 lungs of mammals. 365 00:11:48.449 --> 00:11:50.369 And Harris's argument builds 366 00:11:50.370 --> 00:11:52.289 off something that's been speculated 367 00:11:52.290 --> 00:11:53.328 before. 368 00:11:53.329 --> 00:11:55.249 Maybe the body produces a 369 00:11:55.250 --> 00:11:57.249 surge of DMT at the 370 00:11:57.250 --> 00:11:58.929 moment of death. 371 00:11:58.930 --> 00:12:01.328 Maybe what Eben experienced 372 00:12:01.329 --> 00:12:03.169 as heaven was actually 373 00:12:03.170 --> 00:12:05.249 him getting high off his 374 00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:06.848 own body's supply. 375 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:11.809 After the break, does a 376 00:12:11.810 --> 00:12:13.809 DMT trip mirror 377 00:12:13.810 --> 00:12:14.810 death. 378 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:24.448 Over 30 years ago, a psychiatrist 379 00:12:24.449 --> 00:12:26.369 named Rick Strassman ran 380 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:28.369 a series of DMT studies 381 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:30.929 at the University of New Mexico. 382 00:12:30.930 --> 00:12:32.929 His work is so foundational 383 00:12:32.930 --> 00:12:34.848 that his name came up in almost 384 00:12:34.849 --> 00:12:36.848 every conversation I had about 385 00:12:36.849 --> 00:12:38.669 death and DMT. 386 00:12:38.670 --> 00:12:40.269 We do know that you know the near 387 00:12:40.270 --> 00:12:42.109 death state is very visual, 388 00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:43.949 very emotional, memories come 389 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:46.029 back. DMT, you know, has 390 00:12:46.030 --> 00:12:48.249 those kinds of effects as well. 391 00:12:48.250 --> 00:12:50.009 He popularized the speculative 392 00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:52.009 theory that DMT might 393 00:12:52.010 --> 00:12:54.009 surge during near death experiences 394 00:12:54.010 --> 00:12:55.669 in a seminal book. 395 00:12:55.670 --> 00:12:57.589 The title of you know the DMT book 396 00:12:57.590 --> 00:12:58.710 is, "The Spirit Molecule." 397 00:13:00.310 --> 00:13:02.149 A practicing Zen Buddhist at the 398 00:13:02.150 --> 00:13:04.389 time, Rick theorized that DMT 399 00:13:04.390 --> 00:13:06.549 is produced in the pineal gland, 400 00:13:06.550 --> 00:13:08.549 a pea-sized organ at the center 401 00:13:08.550 --> 00:13:09.749 of the brain. 402 00:13:09.750 --> 00:13:11.749 Borrowing from Buddhist and Hindu 403 00:13:11.750 --> 00:13:13.509 traditions, the gland is often 404 00:13:13.510 --> 00:13:15.429 referred to as the third eye because 405 00:13:15.430 --> 00:13:17.029 of its location. 406 00:13:17.030 --> 00:13:19.188 Rick wanted to find the biological 407 00:13:19.189 --> 00:13:21.749 basis of spiritual experiences. 408 00:13:21.750 --> 00:13:23.909 But this was the war on drugs era, 409 00:13:23.910 --> 00:13:26.228 so he ran studies looking at DMT's 410 00:13:26.229 --> 00:13:28.228 impacts in case it had medical 411 00:13:28.229 --> 00:13:29.229 use. 412 00:13:30.459 --> 00:13:32.779 It was just so weird. 413 00:13:32.780 --> 00:13:34.619 There was no one in this country, 414 00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:36.539 you know, giving psychedelics 415 00:13:36.540 --> 00:13:38.059 and there was no one in in the world 416 00:13:38.060 --> 00:13:40.139 giving DMT anywhere. 417 00:13:40.140 --> 00:13:41.339 There weren't a bunch of people 418 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:43.259 lining up for this research, but he 419 00:13:43.260 --> 00:13:45.259 managed to find 60. 420 00:13:45.260 --> 00:13:47.259 The first ones through the door were 421 00:13:47.260 --> 00:13:48.429 his friends. 422 00:13:48.430 --> 00:13:50.828 Mostly white collar professionals, 423 00:13:50.829 --> 00:13:52.669 you know, lawyers, physicians, 424 00:13:52.670 --> 00:13:53.869 psychologists. 425 00:13:53.870 --> 00:13:55.549 They were the kinds of folks you 426 00:13:55.550 --> 00:13:57.068 would expect at a you know 427 00:13:57.069 --> 00:13:58.909 psychedelic event in you 428 00:13:58.910 --> 00:14:00.269 know the late nineteen eighties, 429 00:14:00.270 --> 00:14:01.909 early nineteen nineties. 430 00:14:01.910 --> 00:14:03.749 Nearly all the DMT sessions were 431 00:14:03.750 --> 00:14:06.229 held inside an Albuquerque hospital, 432 00:14:06.230 --> 00:14:07.669 a pretty sterile place for a 433 00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:09.429 psychedelic experience. 434 00:14:09.430 --> 00:14:12.389 His team refurbished room 531, 435 00:14:12.390 --> 00:14:14.229 a roughly 15 by 15 436 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:15.349 foot space. 437 00:14:15.350 --> 00:14:17.188 He hired carpenters to cover 438 00:14:17.189 --> 00:14:19.509 the tubes, pipes, and hoses. 439 00:14:19.510 --> 00:14:20.869 The bright white walls were 440 00:14:20.870 --> 00:14:22.229 repainted blue. 441 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:24.068 The room was outfitted with blue 442 00:14:24.069 --> 00:14:26.229 chairs with a subtle pattern. 443 00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:28.149 Rick was going for soothing, but 444 00:14:28.150 --> 00:14:29.029 not dull. 445 00:14:29.030 --> 00:14:31.188 He got a rocking chair for himself 446 00:14:31.189 --> 00:14:32.708 from where he'd observe study 447 00:14:32.709 --> 00:14:33.989 participants. 448 00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:35.828 They would lie on a bed as he 449 00:14:35.829 --> 00:14:38.229 gave them somewhere between .05 450 00:14:38.230 --> 00:14:40.469 and .4 milligrams of DMT 451 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:42.019 intravenously. 452 00:14:42.020 --> 00:14:43.299 I would just you know sit there, you 453 00:14:43.300 --> 00:14:45.219 know, praying, like I hope 454 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:46.659 they're having a good time. 455 00:14:46.660 --> 00:14:48.659 People could have an extraordinarily 456 00:14:48.660 --> 00:14:50.099 wonderful time and you wouldn't know 457 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.619 it, or people might be having a 458 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:53.139 horrific hellish time and you 459 00:14:53.140 --> 00:14:54.899 wouldn't know it until they you know 460 00:14:54.900 --> 00:14:56.579 began talking with you. 461 00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:58.979 Thirty minutes, maybe forty. 462 00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:00.899 That's about how long participants 463 00:15:00.900 --> 00:15:02.419 would be on a trip. 464 00:15:02.420 --> 00:15:04.339 Rick warned them that it started 465 00:15:04.340 --> 00:15:06.259 fast, sometimes before the 466 00:15:06.260 --> 00:15:08.179 injection was even done. 467 00:15:08.180 --> 00:15:10.739 It would often start with a rush, 468 00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:12.399 then a sound. 469 00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:13.999 Oftentimes there would be a high 470 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:15.120 pitched kind of whine like 471 00:15:21.190 --> 00:15:23.270 Then a breakthrough and visuals. 472 00:15:25.118 --> 00:15:26.639 You're almost instantly transported 473 00:15:26.640 --> 00:15:28.318 into this realm of light. 474 00:15:28.319 --> 00:15:30.238 Colorful, morphing, 475 00:15:30.239 --> 00:15:32.159 kaleidoscopic, fractal 476 00:15:32.160 --> 00:15:33.160 like. 477 00:15:34.310 --> 00:15:35.279 Beings. 478 00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:37.279 The majority of the folks 479 00:15:37.280 --> 00:15:39.119 felt an intelligence that 480 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.279 would even materialize into 481 00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:43.279 recognizable things, 482 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:46.639 which you took all manner of 483 00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.399 shape and form. 484 00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:50.879 You know, humanoid, robotic, 485 00:15:50.880 --> 00:15:53.039 insect like, plant like, 486 00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:54.799 even sentient furniture. 487 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:57.690 Sometimes, it was harrowing. 488 00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:01.179 One person felt you 489 00:16:01.180 --> 00:16:03.099 know paranoid and trapped 490 00:16:03.100 --> 00:16:04.939 like a jack in the box popped 491 00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:06.939 out and was kind of leering at him. 492 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.779 The Jack in the Box character said, 493 00:16:08.780 --> 00:16:10.779 I've got you now, I've got you now. 494 00:16:10.780 --> 00:16:11.980 And he felt quite scared. 495 00:16:13.400 --> 00:16:15.629 Sometimes it was comforting. 496 00:16:15.630 --> 00:16:17.629 The insights, the ideas which were 497 00:16:17.630 --> 00:16:19.629 you know transmitted 498 00:16:19.630 --> 00:16:21.709 were kind of 499 00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:23.549 trite, like you know, love is all 500 00:16:23.550 --> 00:16:24.550 there is. 501 00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:26.869 Realer than real. 502 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:28.789 Everyday reality pales 503 00:16:28.790 --> 00:16:30.629 in comparison with the reality 504 00:16:30.630 --> 00:16:32.549 value of the DMT 505 00:16:32.550 --> 00:16:33.699 experience. 506 00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:35.619 But is the DMT experience the 507 00:16:35.620 --> 00:16:37.859 same as Eben's so called journey 508 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:38.860 through the afterlife? 509 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:44.979 There are some obvious overlaps 510 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:47.139 between an NDE and a DMT 511 00:16:47.140 --> 00:16:47.939 trip. 512 00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:49.939 Bright light, realness, 513 00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:52.659 God, even sentient beings. 514 00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:54.739 It actually led Rick to suggest 515 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.579 in his book that dying 516 00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:58.579 people should go on a DMT trip 517 00:16:58.580 --> 00:17:00.419 as a kind of dress rehearsal for 518 00:17:00.420 --> 00:17:01.219 death. 519 00:17:01.220 --> 00:17:03.929 Why do our bodies produce DMT? 520 00:17:03.930 --> 00:17:05.929 Oh, who knows? 521 00:17:05.930 --> 00:17:07.838 I I mean only God knows. 522 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.598 Some researchers think it helps us 523 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.598 through traumatic moments to 524 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.598 dissociate and go to a safe 525 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:14.398 place. 526 00:17:14.399 --> 00:17:17.279 Some say that it's neuroprotective 527 00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:20.149 to reduce brain damage after injury. 528 00:17:20.150 --> 00:17:21.909 You could speed recovery from a 529 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:23.749 stroke in experimental 530 00:17:23.750 --> 00:17:26.259 animals in the presence of DMT. 531 00:17:26.260 --> 00:17:28.098 There's one problem though. 532 00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:29.939 No one has ever proved that 533 00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:31.939 DMT surges in humans 534 00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:34.179 during a stroke, a coma, 535 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:35.378 or death. 536 00:17:35.379 --> 00:17:37.299 But Rick managed to inspire 537 00:17:37.300 --> 00:17:38.979 one scientist who wanted to study 538 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:39.928 it. 539 00:17:39.929 --> 00:17:41.849 I actually contacted Dr. Strassman 540 00:17:41.850 --> 00:17:43.769 and said, Oh, if you don't have any 541 00:17:43.770 --> 00:17:45.289 data, those would be kind of things 542 00:17:45.290 --> 00:17:47.069 that we could collaborate on. 543 00:17:47.070 --> 00:17:49.148 This is Jimo Borjigin. 544 00:17:49.149 --> 00:17:50.829 She's a professor at the University 545 00:17:50.830 --> 00:17:52.829 of Michigan's Medical School, where 546 00:17:52.830 --> 00:17:54.949 she studies the dying brain. 547 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:56.789 I was born in China and 548 00:17:56.790 --> 00:17:58.949 grew up in the environment 549 00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:01.429 that life after life 550 00:18:01.430 --> 00:18:03.349 or soul or heaven or 551 00:18:03.350 --> 00:18:06.089 hell that's never in my education. 552 00:18:06.090 --> 00:18:07.928 She says her brain is averse to 553 00:18:07.929 --> 00:18:09.688 religious ideologies. 554 00:18:09.689 --> 00:18:11.688 She wanted to explore naturally 555 00:18:11.689 --> 00:18:14.809 occurring DMT and NDEs. 556 00:18:14.810 --> 00:18:16.648 So she got Rick to consult on a 557 00:18:16.649 --> 00:18:18.089 study at her lab. 558 00:18:18.090 --> 00:18:20.168 It examined 36 rats 559 00:18:20.169 --> 00:18:21.849 whose brains were implanted with 560 00:18:21.850 --> 00:18:24.168 microdialysis probes. 561 00:18:24.169 --> 00:18:26.089 The idea was to measure 562 00:18:26.090 --> 00:18:28.168 in real time whether rats' 563 00:18:28.169 --> 00:18:30.089 brains secreted DMT 564 00:18:30.090 --> 00:18:31.609 after a lethal injection. 565 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.239 In our twenty nineteen paper 566 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.159 published in scientific reports, 567 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:39.999 which show very 568 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.839 increase of a dimethyltriptamine 569 00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:44.559 DMT in the dying rats. 570 00:18:44.560 --> 00:18:46.799 Her data showed that in a few rats, 571 00:18:46.800 --> 00:18:49.279 DMT levels increased fourfold 572 00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:51.039 or even fivefold. 573 00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:52.040 But in most, It was far less. 574 00:18:53.330 --> 00:18:54.769 Many people thought that was the 575 00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:56.609 evidence to show in the DMT 576 00:18:56.610 --> 00:18:58.129 levels increased in the dying 577 00:18:58.130 --> 00:18:59.130 animals. 578 00:19:00.549 --> 00:19:01.589 But Jimo wasn't quite as convinced by that 579 00:19:01.590 --> 00:19:03.428 data. Because a one to five 580 00:19:03.429 --> 00:19:05.589 fold increase in DMT is small 581 00:19:05.590 --> 00:19:07.269 potatoes when compared to other 582 00:19:07.270 --> 00:19:09.188 chemical surges. 583 00:19:09.189 --> 00:19:10.869 In a study looking at other 584 00:19:10.870 --> 00:19:13.269 neurotransmitters in dying rats, 585 00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:15.829 Jimo saw a quote, stupendous 586 00:19:15.830 --> 00:19:17.198 increase. 587 00:19:17.199 --> 00:19:19.198 That include dopamine, which 588 00:19:19.199 --> 00:19:21.279 increases more than fortyfold, 589 00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:23.198 norepinephrine, which is responsible 590 00:19:23.199 --> 00:19:25.279 for alertness, increased 591 00:19:25.280 --> 00:19:27.119 to more than sixty fold compared to 592 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:28.398 the baseline. 593 00:19:28.399 --> 00:19:30.638 And we see serotonin levels 594 00:19:30.639 --> 00:19:32.718 surges more than two hundredfold 595 00:19:32.719 --> 00:19:33.840 in the dying rat. 596 00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:38.429 In other words, the surge of DMT 597 00:19:38.430 --> 00:19:40.349 doesn't even come close to the surge 598 00:19:40.350 --> 00:19:42.189 of other neurotransmitters, 599 00:19:42.190 --> 00:19:43.549 which all have pretty remarkable 600 00:19:43.550 --> 00:19:44.279 effects. 601 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:45.280 Norepinephrines 602 00:19:46.120 --> 00:19:47.319 increase your alertness. 603 00:19:47.320 --> 00:19:49.719 So I think a norepinephrine level 604 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.559 to me perhaps is associated 605 00:19:51.560 --> 00:19:53.639 with the realer than real sensation 606 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.719 that these survivors report. 607 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:57.479 Dopamine on the other hand is 608 00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.239 associated with the feeling good, 609 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:00.539 you know. 610 00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:01.979 And she thinks it's significant that 611 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:03.898 serotonin is in the mix 612 00:20:03.899 --> 00:20:05.739 because it binds to receptors in 613 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:07.419 the body that are associated with 614 00:20:07.420 --> 00:20:08.859 hallucinations. 615 00:20:08.860 --> 00:20:11.169 So perhaps seratonin levels 616 00:20:11.170 --> 00:20:13.569 increase in the dying states 617 00:20:13.570 --> 00:20:15.729 are contributed to visual 618 00:20:15.730 --> 00:20:17.889 hallucinations and seeing 619 00:20:17.890 --> 00:20:18.930 light and so forth. 620 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:22.679 But these theories are all limited 621 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:24.999 by the lack of human data. 622 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.079 Jimo says a human study 623 00:20:27.080 --> 00:20:28.679 would be hard to design. 624 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.519 It would require volunteers who 625 00:20:30.520 --> 00:20:32.279 agree to spending their final 626 00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:34.119 moments being hooked up to an 627 00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:35.959 EEG machine and having 628 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.719 their bodily fluids measured for 629 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:39.479 neurochemicals. 630 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:41.719 Moreover, since the volunteer 631 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:43.799 dies, there's no way to confirm 632 00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:45.639 whether they saw a light, a 633 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:47.399 deity, or something else when they 634 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.079 experienced a surge of brain 635 00:20:49.080 --> 00:20:50.439 activity. 636 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.439 What we do know is that 637 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.519 NDEs have been reported 638 00:20:54.520 --> 00:20:56.359 for a long time and by 639 00:20:56.360 --> 00:20:58.429 people all over the world. 640 00:20:58.430 --> 00:21:00.109 They're written in the ancient Greek 641 00:21:00.110 --> 00:21:01.389 and Roman literature. 642 00:21:01.390 --> 00:21:02.829 There are accounts from ancient 643 00:21:02.830 --> 00:21:03.709 Egypt. 644 00:21:03.710 --> 00:21:05.309 They're in Polynesia. 645 00:21:05.310 --> 00:21:06.909 They're in Australian Aboriginal 646 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:07.709 cultures. 647 00:21:07.710 --> 00:21:09.229 They're everywhere. 648 00:21:09.230 --> 00:21:11.149 This is Dr. Bruce Greyson, 649 00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:13.149 a retired psychiatrist. 650 00:21:13.150 --> 00:21:14.989 I called him up because he's also 651 00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:17.309 one of the top scholars of NDEs 652 00:21:17.310 --> 00:21:18.749 at the University of Virginia 653 00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:19.949 Charlottesville. 654 00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:21.949 And yes, you can be a scholar 655 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:22.829 in that. 656 00:21:22.830 --> 00:21:25.309 Around the 1970s, NDEs 657 00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:26.829 became a sort of academic 658 00:21:26.830 --> 00:21:27.789 discipline. 659 00:21:27.790 --> 00:21:29.629 Along with telepathy, 660 00:21:29.630 --> 00:21:31.709 NDEs fall under the category of 661 00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:33.549 parapsychology, 662 00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:35.549 which, depending on who you ask, 663 00:21:35.550 --> 00:21:36.989 is a fringe science or a 664 00:21:36.990 --> 00:21:38.349 pseudoscience. 665 00:21:38.350 --> 00:21:40.189 Bruce says he wasn't primed 666 00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:41.190 to believe in this stuff. 667 00:21:42.110 --> 00:21:43.468 I was raised in a scientific 668 00:21:43.469 --> 00:21:44.269 household. 669 00:21:44.270 --> 00:21:45.708 I went through college and medical 670 00:21:45.709 --> 00:21:47.388 school with that mindset that all 671 00:21:47.389 --> 00:21:48.509 our thoughts and feelings are 672 00:21:48.510 --> 00:21:49.309 produced by the brain. 673 00:21:49.310 --> 00:21:50.639 There's nothing else. 674 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.799 Bruce's interest in NDEs started 675 00:21:52.800 --> 00:21:54.479 with a patient he met while in 676 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:55.279 training. 677 00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:57.439 She said she left her body while 678 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.359 unconscious and was able to 679 00:21:59.360 --> 00:22:01.279 accurately describe events in a 680 00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:03.199 different hospital room. 681 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.039 He couldn't explain it, and 682 00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:06.719 when he learned other people had 683 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:08.639 similar experiences, he 684 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.639 found himself studying NDEs 685 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.359 for the next 50 years. 686 00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:15.279 Today, Bruce and his colleagues 687 00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:16.639 at the University of Virginia 688 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.039 Charlottesville maintain a database 689 00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:21.039 of over a thousand NDE 690 00:22:21.040 --> 00:22:21.999 reports. 691 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.679 And the accounts have strikingly 692 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:24.680 similar elements. 693 00:22:25.530 --> 00:22:27.208 Such as a sense of overwhelming 694 00:22:27.209 --> 00:22:29.049 peace and well-being when they are 695 00:22:29.050 --> 00:22:31.208 in fact in dire straits. 696 00:22:31.209 --> 00:22:32.968 They often feel a sense of leaving 697 00:22:32.969 --> 00:22:34.888 their physical bodies and 698 00:22:34.889 --> 00:22:36.809 accurately report what's going on 699 00:22:36.810 --> 00:22:38.249 around the body from an out-of-body 700 00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:39.049 perspective. 701 00:22:39.050 --> 00:22:40.888 They may encounter other entities 702 00:22:40.889 --> 00:22:42.408 that they feel are not physically 703 00:22:42.409 --> 00:22:44.009 present. Some of them they may 704 00:22:44.010 --> 00:22:46.168 recognize as deceased individuals 705 00:22:46.169 --> 00:22:48.809 or as what they think are deities. 706 00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:50.329 They often go through a review of 707 00:22:50.330 --> 00:22:52.408 their entire lives, and 708 00:22:52.409 --> 00:22:54.249 at some point they may come 709 00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:56.408 to a decision to return 710 00:22:56.409 --> 00:22:57.689 to their bodies or are sent back. 711 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.399 Bruce developed a 32-point 712 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.039 questionnaire to measure NDEs. 713 00:23:07.040 --> 00:23:09.119 It includes questions that range 714 00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:11.039 from, did you have a feeling of 715 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:12.799 peace or pleasantness? 716 00:23:12.800 --> 00:23:14.959 To did you see deceased 717 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.439 spirits or religious figures? 718 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.359 It's used in near-death studies 719 00:23:19.360 --> 00:23:21.439 around the world and referred to as 720 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.359 the Greyson Scale, named 721 00:23:23.360 --> 00:23:25.199 after Bruce, though he 722 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:26.719 wishes people would stop calling it 723 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:27.720 that. 724 00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:29.089 I prefer not to call it the Greyson 725 00:23:29.090 --> 00:23:30.090 scale. 726 00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:31.119 Really? 727 00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:32.638 I have never called it that. 728 00:23:32.639 --> 00:23:34.638 No, I have always called it the NDE 729 00:23:34.639 --> 00:23:35.639 scale. 730 00:23:36.370 --> 00:23:38.289 Most people score 15 out of 731 00:23:38.290 --> 00:23:40.049 32 on the scale. 732 00:23:40.050 --> 00:23:41.888 Eben Alexander, whom Bruce 733 00:23:41.889 --> 00:23:44.929 knows personally, scored 29. 734 00:23:44.930 --> 00:23:47.009 Which is very high in the top 735 00:23:47.010 --> 00:23:48.969 two or three percent. 736 00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:51.049 The deceased relative, the joy 737 00:23:51.050 --> 00:23:53.049 and peace of heaven, the meeting 738 00:23:53.050 --> 00:23:54.249 with Om. 739 00:23:54.250 --> 00:23:56.569 It's all reflective of the classic 740 00:23:56.570 --> 00:23:57.570 NDE. 741 00:23:58.890 --> 00:24:00.729 But the thing that also struck me 742 00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:02.569 about Eben's experience 743 00:24:02.570 --> 00:24:05.609 is that it sounds so American. 744 00:24:05.610 --> 00:24:07.929 Heaven and Om are not American 745 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:10.249 inventions, but they are everywhere 746 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:13.209 in this country's spiritual lexicon. 747 00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:15.449 How influenced are NDEs 748 00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:17.289 by where you are and how 749 00:24:17.290 --> 00:24:18.888 you were raised? 750 00:24:18.889 --> 00:24:20.249 Most people who have a near death 751 00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:22.249 experience will say, you know, there 752 00:24:22.250 --> 00:24:23.849 just aren't any words to describe 753 00:24:23.850 --> 00:24:26.089 it. So they have to use metaphors 754 00:24:26.090 --> 00:24:27.529 because there aren't words for it. 755 00:24:27.530 --> 00:24:29.369 And your metaphors come from your 756 00:24:29.370 --> 00:24:30.489 culture. 757 00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:32.249 So for example, people all over the 758 00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:34.249 world and going back through time 759 00:24:34.250 --> 00:24:36.329 will talk about a warm, loving being 760 00:24:36.330 --> 00:24:37.449 of light. 761 00:24:37.450 --> 00:24:39.529 And if you're an American, Jewish 762 00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:41.529 or Christian person, you may say 763 00:24:41.530 --> 00:24:43.369 that was God, or you 764 00:24:43.370 --> 00:24:45.129 may say that was Christ. 765 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.149 I've read papers about NDEs 766 00:24:51.150 --> 00:24:52.749 on the other side of the world. 767 00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:54.749 And yes, they also feature 768 00:24:54.750 --> 00:24:56.509 the classic elements Bruce 769 00:24:56.510 --> 00:24:57.469 describes. 770 00:24:57.470 --> 00:24:59.069 But there are other things that are 771 00:24:59.070 --> 00:25:01.149 just so culturally specific. 772 00:25:01.150 --> 00:25:03.309 People in a study from Iran reported 773 00:25:03.310 --> 00:25:05.309 meeting Shia imams or meeting 774 00:25:05.310 --> 00:25:07.149 Ayatollah Khomeini. 775 00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:09.229 If they reflect your prior religious 776 00:25:09.230 --> 00:25:11.549 belief or your cultural context, 777 00:25:11.550 --> 00:25:13.469 can that be an indication that 778 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:15.389 the memories and teachings that are 779 00:25:15.390 --> 00:25:17.309 stored in the brain are playing 780 00:25:17.310 --> 00:25:18.430 a role in the experience? 781 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.479 Well, of course, every experience 782 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:23.239 that we talk about, no matter where 783 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:24.839 it's coming from, it has to be 784 00:25:24.840 --> 00:25:26.119 filtered through the brain and 785 00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:27.559 through our language. 786 00:25:27.560 --> 00:25:29.719 The fact that culture determines 787 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:31.399 how you describe it does not mean 788 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:32.759 that the culture determines whether 789 00:25:32.760 --> 00:25:34.119 or not you have an experience or 790 00:25:34.120 --> 00:25:36.059 what kind you're going to have. 791 00:25:36.060 --> 00:25:37.819 Bruce doesn't put much stock in 792 00:25:37.820 --> 00:25:39.898 theories that suggest DMT 793 00:25:39.899 --> 00:25:41.898 or other brain activity produces 794 00:25:41.899 --> 00:25:43.099 NDEs. 795 00:25:43.100 --> 00:25:45.339 The data is too limited. 796 00:25:45.340 --> 00:25:47.259 Instead, he sees things more like 797 00:25:47.260 --> 00:25:49.209 Eben Alexander. 798 00:25:49.210 --> 00:25:50.969 So I think I'm open to the idea that 799 00:25:50.970 --> 00:25:52.969 there is consciousness beyond 800 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:54.809 the physical brain that can survive 801 00:25:54.810 --> 00:25:56.769 death of the physical brain. 802 00:25:56.770 --> 00:25:58.609 But I wondered, what if 803 00:25:58.610 --> 00:26:00.609 someone, somewhere, someday 804 00:26:00.610 --> 00:26:02.769 in the distant future managed 805 00:26:02.770 --> 00:26:04.849 to prove that humans release 806 00:26:04.850 --> 00:26:06.769 a surge of DMT or 807 00:26:06.770 --> 00:26:08.369 some other chemical during near 808 00:26:08.370 --> 00:26:10.049 death experiences? 809 00:26:10.050 --> 00:26:11.729 Would that change your mind about 810 00:26:11.730 --> 00:26:12.769 consciousness at all? 811 00:26:12.770 --> 00:26:14.449 Or would it I don't know, would it 812 00:26:14.450 --> 00:26:15.669 just kind of complicate 813 00:26:15.670 --> 00:26:16.789 It would certainly complicate 814 00:26:16.790 --> 00:26:18.629 things. It would make us more likely 815 00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:19.909 to look at what's going on with this 816 00:26:19.910 --> 00:26:21.569 DMT surge. 817 00:26:21.570 --> 00:26:23.489 But it wouldn't negate Bruce's view 818 00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:25.648 of consciousness or the spiritual 819 00:26:25.649 --> 00:26:27.429 nature of NDEs. 820 00:26:27.430 --> 00:26:28.709 I think there are different ways of 821 00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:30.389 looking at any object. 822 00:26:30.390 --> 00:26:32.469 It can be looked through a spiritual 823 00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:34.629 lens or a physical lens. 824 00:26:34.630 --> 00:26:36.629 And those are not necessarily 825 00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:38.309 conflicting ways of looking at 826 00:26:38.310 --> 00:26:40.149 things. They're complementary ways. 827 00:26:40.150 --> 00:26:41.749 You know, when you're moved by a 828 00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:43.669 beautiful sunset, that 829 00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:45.109 can be felt as a spiritual 830 00:26:45.110 --> 00:26:46.869 experience. It's also obviously a 831 00:26:46.870 --> 00:26:48.229 physical experience. 832 00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:49.989 Does one negate the other? 833 00:26:49.990 --> 00:26:50.990 Not at all. 834 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:55.289 Eben Alexander was tired of 835 00:26:55.290 --> 00:26:57.049 people dismissing his experience of 836 00:26:57.050 --> 00:26:59.369 heaven as just naturally occurring 837 00:26:59.370 --> 00:27:00.809 DMT. 838 00:27:00.810 --> 00:27:02.969 In 2018, a decade 839 00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:04.969 after his NDE, he 840 00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:06.729 decided to see the difference for 841 00:27:06.730 --> 00:27:07.730 himself. 842 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:10.969 I had a colleague who was 843 00:27:10.970 --> 00:27:12.489 very experienced in this kind of 844 00:27:12.490 --> 00:27:15.369 thing, and he facilitated 845 00:27:15.370 --> 00:27:17.689 my ability to smoke 846 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:20.349 some five-methoxy-DMT 847 00:27:20.350 --> 00:27:21.886 Also known as 5-MEo-DMT. 848 00:27:23.389 --> 00:27:25.309 He wanted to settle the score once 849 00:27:25.310 --> 00:27:27.229 and for all about psychedelics 850 00:27:27.230 --> 00:27:29.468 and near-death experiences. 851 00:27:29.469 --> 00:27:31.309 But it's worth noting here that the 852 00:27:31.310 --> 00:27:33.790 comparison was limited. 853 00:27:35.550 --> 00:27:37.869 5-MEo-DMT and DMT are psychedelic 854 00:27:37.870 --> 00:27:39.708 tryptomines, but they have different 855 00:27:39.709 --> 00:27:41.948 chemical structures and effects. 856 00:27:41.949 --> 00:27:43.869 But Eben forged ahead and took 857 00:27:43.870 --> 00:27:45.388 the drug anyway. 858 00:27:45.389 --> 00:27:47.549 On his trip, he saw fractal 859 00:27:47.550 --> 00:27:49.549 imagery that he described as 860 00:27:49.550 --> 00:27:50.550 tremendous. 861 00:27:51.500 --> 00:27:54.219 There was some sense of beings, 862 00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:55.739 you know, of entities that were 863 00:27:55.740 --> 00:27:57.659 there. And I sensed them as friendly 864 00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:59.019 and indestructive and and 865 00:27:59.020 --> 00:28:00.139 knowledgeable. 866 00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:01.899 So I didn't feel alone in the 867 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:03.659 process. I felt kind of guided and 868 00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:04.779 helped. 869 00:28:04.780 --> 00:28:06.859 But it didn't come close to his NDE. 870 00:28:09.070 --> 00:28:11.229 To compare my DMT experience 871 00:28:11.230 --> 00:28:13.229 with what I had during my near-death 872 00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:15.069 experience is kind of like trying to 873 00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:16.589 look at something through a keyhole. 874 00:28:16.590 --> 00:28:18.589 It was very difficult to discern any 875 00:28:18.590 --> 00:28:19.389 information. 876 00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:21.469 And yet compare that with 877 00:28:21.470 --> 00:28:23.389 the way I described my NDE, 878 00:28:23.390 --> 00:28:26.029 which was a penthouse panoramic 879 00:28:26.030 --> 00:28:27.869 vista to the horizons 880 00:28:27.870 --> 00:28:29.869 of reality about the nature of 881 00:28:29.870 --> 00:28:30.870 all existence. 882 00:28:33.010 --> 00:28:35.009 When it comes to death, studies 883 00:28:35.010 --> 00:28:37.249 about NDEs offer us some threads 884 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:39.169 to pull on, but they don't come 885 00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:41.009 close to answering the big 886 00:28:41.010 --> 00:28:41.969 question. 887 00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:43.626 What happens after? 888 00:28:48.770 --> 00:28:50.769 I was 13 when my grandmother 889 00:28:50.770 --> 00:28:52.369 asked that question. 890 00:28:52.370 --> 00:28:54.209 She'd just been widowed, and 891 00:28:54.210 --> 00:28:55.809 like me and millions of other 892 00:28:55.810 --> 00:28:57.889 Muslims, she was taught that death 893 00:28:57.890 --> 00:29:00.449 an angel, 894 00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:02.769 a waiting period, judgment, 895 00:29:02.770 --> 00:29:05.009 then heaven or hell. 896 00:29:05.010 --> 00:29:07.089 But one night after my grandfather 897 00:29:07.090 --> 00:29:09.009 died, she paused by my mom's 898 00:29:09.010 --> 00:29:11.009 bedroom door and flatly 899 00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:12.849 asked where his soul was 900 00:29:12.850 --> 00:29:13.850 now. 901 00:29:14.530 --> 00:29:17.089 We all fell back on our scripts, 902 00:29:17.090 --> 00:29:18.689 probably so we could put the 903 00:29:18.690 --> 00:29:20.769 unsettling topic and ourselves 904 00:29:20.770 --> 00:29:22.209 to bed. 905 00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:24.209 Maybe that's also why so much of the 906 00:29:24.210 --> 00:29:25.409 public couldn't look away from 907 00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:27.089 Eben's account. 908 00:29:27.090 --> 00:29:29.009 It's another script, 909 00:29:29.010 --> 00:29:31.809 one that's bright and benevolent. 910 00:29:31.810 --> 00:29:33.649 A proof of heaven that quiet 911 00:29:33.650 --> 00:29:36.129 the dread of not knowing. 912 00:29:36.130 --> 00:29:38.289 And in many ways, the DMT 913 00:29:38.290 --> 00:29:40.449 theory offers another script. 914 00:29:40.450 --> 00:29:42.849 If a drug can mimic death, 915 00:29:42.850 --> 00:29:44.689 maybe we can know what we're in 916 00:29:44.690 --> 00:29:45.649 for. 917 00:29:45.650 --> 00:29:47.888 Maybe we can do what Rick suggested 918 00:29:47.889 --> 00:29:49.729 in his DMT book. 919 00:29:49.730 --> 00:29:51.649 Use the psychedelic as a test 920 00:29:51.650 --> 00:29:52.650 run. 921 00:29:56.510 --> 00:29:58.429 I you know ran that by my Zen 922 00:29:58.430 --> 00:29:59.949 Buddhist monk friends. 923 00:29:59.950 --> 00:30:01.309 You know, they said, you know, 924 00:30:01.310 --> 00:30:03.149 number one, what happens if it's 925 00:30:03.150 --> 00:30:04.029 a bad trip? 926 00:30:04.030 --> 00:30:05.949 And number two, what happens if 927 00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:06.989 you're wrong? 928 00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:08.669 You know, what happens if there is 929 00:30:08.670 --> 00:30:11.069 no relationship between being 930 00:30:11.070 --> 00:30:13.149 dead and the DMT 931 00:30:13.150 --> 00:30:14.989 experience? You might be chasing a 932 00:30:14.990 --> 00:30:16.989 wild goose and you know 933 00:30:16.990 --> 00:30:18.669 then you're shocked, you know, when 934 00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:20.589 it isn't anything like a DMT 935 00:30:20.590 --> 00:30:21.839 experience. 936 00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:23.279 A lot has changed since Rick 937 00:30:23.280 --> 00:30:25.198 Strassman wrote his DMT book 938 00:30:25.199 --> 00:30:26.479 25 years ago. 939 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.239 He's in his 70s now. 940 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.319 He's returned to his Jewish roots, 941 00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:32.239 and he's changed his mind about some 942 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.958 things. 943 00:30:32.959 --> 00:30:34.958 Would you now ever take DMT 944 00:30:34.959 --> 00:30:35.959 to prepare for death? 945 00:30:37.100 --> 00:30:38.138 Me? 946 00:30:38.139 --> 00:30:39.499 No, no. 947 00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:41.339 I would just get my ducks 948 00:30:41.340 --> 00:30:42.340 in a row. 949 00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:45.909 What does that mean like writing a 950 00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:47.269 will or just, you know? 951 00:30:47.270 --> 00:30:48.709 I mean, you know, you want to 952 00:30:48.710 --> 00:30:50.549 develop your virtues, you wanna be 953 00:30:50.550 --> 00:30:51.829 a good person. 954 00:30:51.830 --> 00:30:53.669 You wanna think, you know, godly 955 00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:55.029 thoughts, you don't wanna have a lot 956 00:30:55.030 --> 00:30:56.309 of regrets. 957 00:30:56.310 --> 00:30:57.829 You wanna be a you know good person 958 00:30:57.830 --> 00:30:58.830 on your deathbed. 959 00:31:02.580 --> 00:31:04.019 My grandmother died during the 960 00:31:04.020 --> 00:31:05.138 pandemic. 961 00:31:05.139 --> 00:31:07.059 I couldn't be with her. 962 00:31:07.060 --> 00:31:08.979 She'd gone back to Pakistan 963 00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:11.539 and was thousands of miles away. 964 00:31:11.540 --> 00:31:13.459 But the nurses said something 965 00:31:13.460 --> 00:31:16.339 that gave my family comfort. 966 00:31:16.340 --> 00:31:18.339 Before her last breath, 967 00:31:18.340 --> 00:31:21.059 my grandmother uttered one word. 968 00:31:21.060 --> 00:31:23.059 Sarfaraz, the name 969 00:31:23.060 --> 00:31:24.979 of her sister who died just months 970 00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:26.019 earlier. 971 00:31:27.780 --> 00:31:29.698 Was her sister there to guide 972 00:31:29.699 --> 00:31:31.619 her tenderly to the other side? 973 00:31:31.620 --> 00:31:34.339 Had death been gentle, inviting 974 00:31:34.340 --> 00:31:35.340 even. 975 00:31:35.780 --> 00:31:37.619 One day, I'll know the 976 00:31:37.620 --> 00:31:39.539 answer, and someone else will be 977 00:31:39.540 --> 00:31:41.299 left behind to wonder where I've 978 00:31:41.300 --> 00:31:42.418 gone. 979 00:31:42.419 --> 00:31:44.418 They might believe that death 980 00:31:44.419 --> 00:31:46.339 was a gateway to an afterlife 981 00:31:46.340 --> 00:31:48.178 or to nothingness, but 982 00:31:48.179 --> 00:31:50.819 they won't be able to prove either. 983 00:31:50.820 --> 00:31:52.819 And whether death is ushered 984 00:31:52.820 --> 00:31:54.979 by angels or feel good chemicals, 985 00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:56.898 or both or neither, I think 986 00:31:56.899 --> 00:31:58.579 we're all just hoping it doesn't 987 00:31:58.580 --> 00:31:59.698 matter. 988 00:31:59.699 --> 00:32:01.619 That death is good if we've 989 00:32:01.620 --> 00:32:03.698 been decent people. 990 00:32:03.699 --> 00:32:05.698 Because we have no control over how 991 00:32:05.699 --> 00:32:07.619 we die, just how we live. 992 00:32:22.040 --> 00:32:23.319 This episode was reported and 993 00:32:23.320 --> 00:32:24.999 produced by Haleema Shah. 994 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.359 Altered States is a production of 995 00:32:26.360 --> 00:32:27.878 the UC Berkeley Center for the 996 00:32:27.879 --> 00:32:30.039 Science of Psychedelics and PRX. 997 00:32:30.040 --> 00:32:32.279 Adizah Eghan is our senior editor. 998 00:32:32.280 --> 00:32:33.959 Our executive editor is Malia 999 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.799 Wollan. Jennie Cataldo 1000 00:32:35.800 --> 00:32:36.999 is our senior producer. 1001 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.319 Our researcher is Cassady Rosenblum. 1002 00:32:39.320 --> 00:32:41.319 Our associate producer is Jade Abdul 1003 00:32:41.320 --> 00:32:42.199 Malik. 1004 00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:43.799 Our audio engineers are Terence 1005 00:32:43.800 --> 00:32:45.638 Bernardo and Jennie Cataldo. 1006 00:32:45.639 --> 00:32:46.810 Fact-checking by Graham Hacia. 1007 00:32:47.879 --> 00:32:49.878 Special thanks to David Presty. 1008 00:32:49.879 --> 00:32:51.638 Our executive producers are Malia 1009 00:32:51.639 --> 00:32:53.638 Wollan and Jocelyn Gonzales. 1010 00:32:53.639 --> 00:32:54.999 And our project manager is Edwin 1011 00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:55.959 Ochoa. 1012 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:57.878 Our theme music is by Thao Nguyen 1013 00:32:57.879 --> 00:32:58.999 and Nate Brenner. 1014 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:00.000 I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross. 1015 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:03.158 Be sure to subscribe, rate, and 1016 00:33:03.159 --> 00:33:04.999 review Altered States wherever you 1017 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:06.359 get your podcasts. 1018 00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:07.959 We'll be back next week. 1019 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:09.799 Most well-known psychedelics remain 1020 00:33:09.800 --> 00:33:11.398 illegal around the world, including 1021 00:33:11.399 --> 00:33:12.759 the United States, where it is a 1022 00:33:12.760 --> 00:33:14.439 criminal offense to manufacture, 1023 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.199 possess, dispense, or supply most 1024 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.439 psychedelics, with few exceptions. 1025 00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:20.439 Altered States does not recommend 1026 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:22.519 or encourage the use of psychedelics 1027 00:33:22.520 --> 00:33:24.200 or offer instructions in their use.