Logo for Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music

Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music

Andrew Gill and Leah Payne

Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now.

Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee.

Content © Leah Payne and Andrew Gill. All pre-released media is used under fair use provisions.

Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now.

Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee.

Content © Leah Payne and Andrew Gill. All pre-released media is used under fair use provisions.
46hr 14min
Thumbnail for "Introducing: When We All Get To Heaven".
Thumbnail for "The Normals Approach to Christian Music (ft. Andrew Osenga)".
Thumbnail for "What's Funny About Failing at Christian Rock? (ft. Jeremy Alder)".
Thumbnail for "Sneaking D'Angelo Riffs Into Worship (ft. Sam Sanders)".
Thumbnail for "Season 4 Trailer".
Thumbnail for "Jason Martin of Starflyer 59 (From Transmissions with Jason Woodbury)".
Thumbnail for "Big Freedia: Is Twerking Next to Godliness? (From The Sam Sanders Show)".
Thumbnail for "The Christmas Special 2025 (ft. Kelsey McGinnis and Daniel Gill)".
Thumbnail for "John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats on Sound Opinions".
Thumbnail for "Solid Rock's Great Lost Album (ft. Steve Scott and Charles Norman)".
Thumbnail for "The Art of Not Having an Endgame (ft. Todd Fadel)".
Thumbnail for "The Prayer Trade Apocalypse (ft. David Dark)".
Thumbnail for "Delirious vs Nirvana (ft. Gabriel Wilson)".
Thumbnail for "The CCM to Ska Pipeline (ft. Aaron Carnes)".
Thumbnail for "Music at the Charlie Kirk Memorial (ft. David Gate and Kelsey Kramer McGinnis)".
Thumbnail for "Live From The Trenches: Leah and Andrew Check In".
Thumbnail for "The Discourse Meets Carman (ft. Chris DeVille)".
Thumbnail for "1985: The Critical Year of CCM (ft. Tim Dillinger)".
Thumbnail for "K-LOVE's Tradecraft (ft. Katie Thornton)".
Thumbnail for "Ozzy Osbourne, Christian Rocker (ft. Jason P Woodbury)".
Thumbnail for "Larry Norman and Bob Dylan's Born Again Era Part 2 (ft. Gregory Alan Thornbury)".
Thumbnail for "Larry Norman, the Guru of Christian Rock Part 1 (ft. Gregory Alan Thornbury)".
Thumbnail for "Yallidarity Explained (ft. Nathan Evans Fox)".
Thumbnail for "The Prayer of Caedmon (ft. Derek Webb)".
Thumbnail for "Fire Acquired: Shiny Happy People (ft. Krispin Mayfield)".
Thumbnail for "Cornerstone, Communes and Chicago Blues (ft. Glenn Kaiser)".
Thumbnail for "The Deconstructed Memelord Theologian (ft. Mason Mennenga)".
Thumbnail for "Gone Fishin'".
Thumbnail for "Giving Up Your Band For God (ft. Josh Caterer of Smoking Popes)".
Thumbnail for "Christian Music on the Hot 100".
Is CCM surging in popularity?
Thumbnail for "Russ Taff and Steve Taylor".
Thumbnail for "Accountability for Michael Tait (DC Talk, Newsboys) and Sean Feucht (ft. Kelsey Kramer McGinnis)".
Thumbnail for "Season Three Update".
Thumbnail for "Lo! A Christmas Special!".
The Second Annual Rock That Doesn't Roll CCM Christmas Song Awards
Thumbnail for "The Art House (ft. Charlie Peacock and Andi Ashworth)".
Thumbnail for "Youth Group Demon Hunting (ft. Jordan Morris)".
Thumbnail for "Introducing: Second Sunday".
Thumbnail for "Bookstore Guy to Exvangelical (ft. Blake Chastain)".
Thumbnail for "Mother Is A Big Question".
Thumbnail for "Christian Ska's Upbeats and Beatdowns (ft. Leanor Ortega Till of Five Iron Frenzy)".
Thumbnail for "Yellow and Black Attack (ft. Michael Sweet of Stryper and Mike Tramp of White Lion)".
Thumbnail for "Fictional Christian Music (ft. Righteous Gemstones' Joseph Stephens, Daniel Smith and Chris White)".
Thumbnail for "The Paradox".
Introducing: Let The Kids Dance!
Thumbnail for "The DC Talk Test (ft. Jason Kirk and Kevin T. Porter)".
Are you a Toby, Michael, or a Kevin?
Thumbnail for "Purity Bros (ft. Joshua Harris)".
Purity culture wasn’t just for youth group “purity girls.” “Purity bros” were also a part of the project! No one knows that more than Joshua Harris, a CCM fan who helped turn purity culture into an extreme sport. Together with his friend, Christian music superstar Rebecca St. James, they created media that inspired a generation of evangelicals to say no to sex outside of marriage, but also to things like dating, kissing, holding hands, and a lot of other things. In this episode, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the story of Josh Harris, one-time icon of purity culture. Josh found that X-games of evangelicalism included the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, and eventually, a life beyond the world of purity bros and purity girls.
Thumbnail for "Purity Girls (ft. Nikki Leonti)".
In 2001, teen singing sensation Nikki Leonti was on her way to a promising Christian music career. She had two hit CCM records, and - as a pop princess who swore to refrain from premarital sex - the support of big evangelical media organizations like James Dobson’s Focus on the Family. But then, at age 18, the “purity girl” Leonti announced she was pregnant, and lost it all. With insight from author and podcaster Devi Abraham, journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) explore how Christian music purity icons like Nikki Leonti, along with their fans, walked the tightrope of purity culture, lost their balance, and learned to put their lives back together again after they fell.
Thumbnail for "Holy Hip Hop (ft. Soup The Chemist)".
In the 1990s, music critics argue that hip hop was in its golden age. Mainstream Top 40 charts were filled with hits from The Notorious B.I.G, Tupac Shakur, and Dr. Dre. But the Contemporary Christian charts lagged far, far behind. What took so long for holy hip hop to take off? With insight from Dr. Jonathan Calvillo (author of In the Time of Sky-Rhyming: How Hip Hop Resonated in Brown Los Angeles), journalist and producer Andrew Gill (Sound Opinions), and historian Leah Payne (God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music) follow the story of Christopher J. Cooper, aka Soup the Chemist, aka Super C, a groundbreaking figure in the Christian hip hop movement. It wasn’t easy, but as Soup the Chemist worked to carve out a place for Christian hip hop to thrive, he laid the foundation for future Christian hip hop figures like Propaganda and Lecrae. 
Thumbnail for "Undo Me (ft. Jennifer Knapp)".
In 1999, ​singer-songwriter Jennifer Knapp was at the top of the Christian music world. But at the height of her fame, Jennifer ​moved across the globe, and disappeared from the world of CCM. This episode follow​s Knapp’s story and shows how, together with her fans, she’s making new meaning out of the ​Christian music of her past.
Thumbnail for "Season Two Trailer".
In the second season of Rock That Doesn't Roll, hosts Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill look at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now.
Thumbnail for "How Amy Grant Got To The Tiny Desk (ft. Lars Gotrich)".
In this bonus episode, Andrew and Leah talk with Lars Gotrich of NPR Music, the producer who brought Amy Grant to play a Tiny Desk Concert. Lars shares how he went from "judgy Christian punk rocker" to someone good at existing in two worlds at once.
Thumbnail for "Introducing: Kristin Du Mez and David French on No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp".
A sample episode of No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp
Thumbnail for "Fugazi to Frodus to Rock That Doesn't Roll: Composer Jim Cooper".
In this bonus episode Leah and Andrew interview Jim Cooper, the composer who wrote and recorded the original score for Rock That Doesn't Roll.
Thumbnail for "It's Christmastime! CCM Christmas Music Awards from Rock That Doesn't Roll".
‘Tis the season for holiday specials and Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock and Roll to You) of Rock that Doesn’t Roll are bringing you a surprise holiday gift: weirdly specific awards for Contemporary Christian Music Christmas tunes!
Thumbnail for ""Be The Billy of Your Actual Hills" (ft. Pedro The Lion)".
For 1990s and early aughts youth group alumni, Christian rock is often the source of embarrassment or shame - but does it have to be that way? The season finale of Rock That Doesn't Roll explores the idea that maybe, just maybe, the key to getting over angst about Christian rock isn't rejecting it or avoiding it, but coming to peace with the person you were when you fell in love with it. With insight from historian Randall J. Stephens (author, The Devil's Music), hosts Andrew Gill (producer, Sound Opinions) and Leah Payne (author, God Gave Rock & Roll to You) follow the story of David Bazan, a Pentecostal pastor's kid-turned-indie rocker who spent decades running from his CCM past. Along the way, Bazan founded Pedro the Lion, and gained critical acclaim, but his fraught relationship with evangelical Christianity and the world of Contemporary Christian Music haunted him. In the end, Bazan suggests that one way to make peace with a CCM past is to learn to be “the billy of your actual hills.”
Thumbnail for "Not A Christian Band (ft. Switchfoot's Jon Foreman and David Dark)".
The late 90s and early aughts were a banner time for a really specific type of rock band - the are-they-or-aren't-they a Christian band, band. This week on Rock that Doesn't Roll: does an artist who identifies as Christian have to brand their music as such? With insight from David Dark, hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne follow the story of Jon Foreman, a pastor’s kid from Carlsbad, California whose band Switchfoot created songs that resonated with youth group kids and climbed the Top 40 charts. Were they, or were they not, a Christian band?
Thumbnail for "Bookstore Guys (ft. John J Thompson and Andrew Mall)".
For many evangelical teens of the 1990s, record stores were not the place to find kid-tested, parent-approved music. For that, Christian teens usually had to go to Christian bookstores. There, among the Bibles and Precious Moments dolls and Christian-themed t-shirts, they found the records that defined their adolescence. Their guide? Bookstore Guys.
Thumbnail for "Christian Rockstar Dreams (ft. Kevin James Thornton and Sunia Won Gibbs)".
For every 1990s Christian rock star who made it big, there were thousands of never-realized would-be Christian rock dreams. This episode follows two aspiring stars as they wrestle with God and glory and making it in the Christian music biz.
Thumbnail for "Punk Rock Prophets (ft. D.L. Mayfield, Brad Onishi and Tim Whitaker)".
For 1990s evangelical teens, punk, hardcore, and ska were a gateway to a passionate, edgy way to express their Christianity outside the mainstream. But was the music and the message enough to keep the evangelical faith? We follow three Christian punk rock stories.
Thumbnail for "Youth Group Kids (ft. Steve Hernandez, Tyler Huckabee and Mark Oestreicher)".
Christian rock has a lot of naysayers, but for evangelical teens of the 1990s, it was EVERYTHING. And the place to find Christian rock gods? Youth group.
Thumbnail for "Trailer".
Dive into the world of Christian rock with its biggest fans.

Introducing: When We All Get To Heaven

Thumbnail for "Introducing: When We All Get To Heaven".
November 26, 202527min 19sec

Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven

To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message. 

To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr

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In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. 

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1.

About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.   

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. 

Thanks to

  • Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid.
  • The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story
Thumbnail for "Introducing: When We All Get To Heaven".
Introducing: When We All Get To Heaven
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